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Why are Phased Plasma and EMP gimped?

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SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:30:00 - [1] Both ammos deal about 10% less damage in all sizes than the other high-damage ammos from lasers and hybrids. Is this a typo? I mean what good is being able to "choose" damage types if a pre-nerf prevents any actual effect?
fdsafjdksajfkdjsakfdsa	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:32:00 - [2] It's not gallente afaik
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:34:00 - [3] Yes both are projectile ammos, but what do you mean?
Lisento Slaven Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:35:00 - [4] EMP and Phased Plasma are fine. There's a lot more in play other than just the raw numbers. --- Put in space whales!
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:38:00 - [5] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 20/09/2007 12:41:36 He means that the -50% and -37.5% range Hybrid and Laser weapons deal 48 and 44 total damage, while the projectile ones deal only 44 and 40, respectively. This is compounded by the fact that EMP spreads its damage over 3 types, making it even worse. Imho the top minnie ammo should be fusion, doing 48 total with emphasis on exp, emp becomes second and PP third. But I guess that is just me and the OP, I started a thread about that once and was flamed to hell and back. I still say that if it really was fine, the T2 projectile ammos need to be nerfed in the same way, since they are right up there with hybrid and laser damage values and thus must be terribly overpowered. Consistency 4tw. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Amy Wang	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:44:00 - [6] Phased Plasma is fine, the problem with EMP however is that it has a too high portion of explosive and kinetic damage (roughly 2/3 of EMP damage are NOT EM opposed to common misconception) which renders the ammo useless for most situations which in turn makes phased plasma more useful. Another issue is that there is no alternative to barrage in most cases for autocannon users because you nearly always fight in falloff and the 50% falloff bonus is needed to be competitive while e.g. hybrid users have faction antimatter which basically is an ammo with void like damage but without the penalties void brings while autocannon users have to resort to hail for similar damage but with all the severe drawbacks.
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:46:00 - [7] Originally by: Lisento Slaven EMP and Phased Plasma are fine. There's a lot more in play other than just the raw numbers. No, not really. In the case where a player tanks his ship it's always an omnitank so doing different types of damage doesn't really matter that much after all, all that counts is raw damage. In untanked ships (didn't include crystals): Antimatter 32.8 34.0 EMP 31.2 28.4 Plutonium 30.4 31.0 PP 30.4 26.8 So really what's the reason for this?
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:49:00 - [8] Originally by: Amy Wang Phased Plasma is fine, the problem with EMP however is that it has a too high portion of explosive and kinetic damage (roughly 2/3 of EMP damage are NOT EM opposed to common misconception) which renders the ammo useless for most situations which in turn makes phased plasma more useful. Another issue is that there is no alternative to barrage in most cases for autocannon users because you nearly always fight in falloff and the 50% falloff bonus is needed to be competitive while e.g. hybrid users have faction antimatter which basically is an ammo with void like damage but without the penalties void brings while autocannon users have to resort to hail for similar damage but with all the severe drawbacks. Yes, the second point is another thing I was going to say. But why do you say PP fine, it really deals less damage than any of the other ammos, I think you mean Fusion?
Kerdrak 3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:51:00 - [9] And how much cap saves this ammo? is not around 100%? I read more stupid whines everyday... ________________________________________
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:51:00 - [10] Try to fit a tank that has 80% across the board... bloody hard without a HAC and officer mods.

Kyrynn	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:53:00 - [11] Because you get RoF bonuses on ships with as many turrets as their counterparts while they get damage bonuses. (eg: Maelstrom vs Hyp and Don). The better bonus keeps it balanced.
Lisento Slaven Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:54:00 - [12] Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Antimatter 32.8 34.0 EMP 31.2 28.4 Plutonium 30.4 31.0 PP 30.4 26.8 So really what's the reason for this? I don't know what the reason is but whatever it is, it works. Plenty of my minmatar ships get top damage on killmails with other ships of Amarr and Gallente types on there. --- Put in space whales!
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:56:00 - [13] Originally by: Kerdrak And how much cap saves this ammo? is not around 100%? I read more stupid whines everyday... Autocannons and artillery are already the worst dps weapons, have the worst ammo capacity and consumption, and worst optimal. Artillery besides has the worst tracking. That's where the cap goes.
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:58:00 - [14] Originally by: Lisento Slaven Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Antimatter 32.8 34.0 EMP 31.2 28.4 Plutonium 30.4 31.0 PP 30.4 26.8 So really what's the reason for this? I don't know what the reason is but whatever it is, it works. Plenty of my minmatar ships get top damage on killmails with other ships of Amarr and Gallente types on there. That's the most baseless reason you can talk about. I could show dozens of killmails with amarrian ships outdamaging sniping Tempests, Maelstroms and any other thing, so discussing killmails is really pointless.
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:00:00 - [15] Originally by: Kyrynn Because you get RoF bonuses on ships with as many turrets as their counterparts while they get damage bonuses. (eg: Maelstrom vs Hyp and Don). The better bonus keeps it balanced. Minmatar ships get rof bonuses because projectile weapons are pre-nerfed so that they don't do much damage when fit on other ships. Even with bonuses they deal much less damage so that's not a valid reason.
TheEndofTheWorld	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:06:00 - [16] Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Originally by: Kerdrak And how much cap saves this ammo? is not around 100%? I read more stupid whines everyday... Autocannons and artillery are already the worst dps weapons, have the worst ammo capacity and consumption, and worst optimal. Artillery besides has the worst tracking. That's where the cap goes. Are you even remotely trying to suggest that minmatar needs a boost? Minmatar is the best pvp race btw if you haven't noticed.
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:10:00 - [17] Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Originally by: Kerdrak And how much cap saves this ammo? is not around 100%? I read more stupid whines everyday... Autocannons and artillery are already the worst dps weapons, have the worst ammo capacity and consumption, and worst optimal. Artillery besides has the worst tracking. That's where the cap goes. Are you even remotely trying to suggest that minmatar needs a boost? Minmatar is the best pvp race btw if you haven't noticed. Do you have any real arguments to my original question?
Borasao	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:17:00 - [18] I think he's saying that a combination of factors, such as higher base speeds, lower signatures, and a host of other things make up for projectile ammo's slightly lower damage numbers. You can't examine the numbers on the ammo in a vacuum... there are tons of modifiers, some not directly on the gun itself, that come into play. As others have said... higher rates of fire (which account for higher ammo usage) also give the added benefit of more damage over time (the time that the gun is firing). From experience, players who fly Minmatar ships tend to do fairly well in PvP (both 1-on-1, in small gangs, and in fleets) so I'm thinking that they aren't hurt so bad by lower damage numbers on the ammo...
Reem Fairchild	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:25:00 - [19] Originally by: Leandro Salazar This is compounded by the fact that EMP spreads its damage over 3 types, making it even worse. How does damage being spread over several damage types make it worse? It makes it a lot better if the target is tanking heavily on one or two resists, and at worst its the same thing if he has roughly equal resists across the board.
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:30:00 - [20] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Leandro Salazar This is compounded by the fact that EMP spreads its damage over 3 types, making it even worse. How does damage being spread over several damage types make it worse? It makes it a lot better if the target is tanking heavily on one or two resists, and at worst its the same thing if he has roughly equal resists across the board. Can i get a bit less damage but "spread over explosive type" laser crystal please?

SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:33:00 - [21] Originally by: Borasao I think he's saying that a combination of factors, such as higher base speeds, lower signatures, and a host of other things make up for projectile ammo's slightly lower damage numbers. You can't examine the numbers on the ammo in a vacuum... there are tons of modifiers, some not directly on the gun itself, that come into play. As others have said... higher rates of fire (which account for higher ammo usage) also give the added benefit of more damage over time (the time that the gun is firing). From experience, players who fly Minmatar ships tend to do fairly well in PvP (both 1-on-1, in small gangs, and in fleets) so I'm thinking that they aren't hurt so bad by lower damage numbers on the ammo... Yes but you aren't taking into account that every race has pros and cons, and Minmatar having a couple of good things aren't enough reasons for having some nerfed ammo. Besides most battles happen in close range withing webs or in sniping distance were speed and sig radius don't matter at all. The Vagabond is an exception to the rule and one of the few ones that can fight out of web range and live to talk about it. The Sleipnir is a glass cannon that requires a giant investment in snakes and faction gear to do the same as the vaga. Minmatar players that fight in PvP usually need many more skillpoints than the rest to be effective, that means it takes more experience to fly them well. Besides saying that Minmatar players do well in pvp is just anecdotal evidence that doesn't hold. You could say the same for Amarr or Gallente and it wouldn't be any different. The problem is that Minmatar have the stigma attached to them of the stabbed vagabond and nanophoon which terrorized so many noobs, but that time is long over.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:34:00 - [22] At least against T2 ships you usually know what the resistance hole will be, damage hitting there would be better. And the thing that irks me most is that the top end minmatar damage is NOT explosive focused as it should be. And please, someone tell me, how can it be fine that minmatar T1 ammo is damage reduced compared to other weapon types, but T2 ammo is not? Either both should be reduced, or neither. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:40:00 - [23] Originally by: Leandro Salazar At least against T2 ships you usually know what the resistance hole will be, damage hitting there would be better. And the thing that irks me most is that the top end minmatar damage is NOT explosive focused as it should be. And please, someone tell me, how can it be fine that minmatar T1 ammo is damage reduced compared to other weapon types, but T2 ammo is not? Either both should be reduced, or neither. Exactly. And all other t1 projectile ammo should be nerfed down too, since apparently having sub-par ammo is just "fine".
Reem Fairchild	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:43:00 - [24] Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 20/09/2007 13:43:38 High damage projectile standard ammo has less damage than equivalent ammo for other turrets because long range projectile standard ammo has higher damage than equivalent ammo for other turrets.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:44:00 - [25] Edited by: Aramendel on 20/09/2007 13:45:45 Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Both ammos deal about 10% less damage in all sizes than the other high-damage ammos from lasers and hybrids. Is this a typo? I mean what good is being able to "choose" damage types if a pre-nerf prevents any actual effect? It means that you have to gasp think when to use it and when not. Weaponsystems which have variable damagetypes can only very rarely switch them without loosing dps. Most misisleships have a racial damage type dps bonus, so they loose dps when using other missiles. Drone users deal the most dps with thermal drones, other drone types have a lower damage mod. And projectile ammo which is not exp/kin does less damage than that of other races... The only exeptions here owuld be the raven (which is one of the reasons why it is so popular for NPCing) and the new khanid ships (which instead have a limitation to shortrange missiles). Its no minmatar gimpage, its a general balance feature and present in many races. Originally by: Leandro Salazar He means that the -50% and -37.5% range Hybrid and Laser weapons deal 48 and 44 total damage, while the projectile ones deal only 44 and 40, respectively. This is compounded by the fact that EMP spreads its damage over 3 types, making it even worse. Imho the top minnie ammo should be fusion, doing 48 total with emphasis on exp, emp becomes second and PP third. But I guess that is just me and the OP, I started a thread about that once and was flamed to hell and back. I still say that if it really was fine, the T2 projectile ammos need to be nerfed in the same way, since they are right up there with hybrid and laser damage values and thus must be terribly overpowered. Consistency 4tw. I would agree with that though, exept that I would make EMP 3rd since it would be more balanced. Max damage ammo for armor and right behind a maxdamage ammo for shields would IMO a bit over the top.
Dixon Caldari Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:45:00 - [26] Originally by: Leandro Salazar At least against T2 ships you usually know what the resistance hole will be, damage hitting there would be better. And the thing that irks me most is that the top end minmatar damage is NOT explosive focused as it should be. And please, someone tell me, how can it be fine that minmatar T1 ammo is damage reduced compared to other weapon types, but T2 ammo is not? Either both should be reduced, or neither. It's just the short range t1 projectile ammo that has less damage, supposedly balanced by the fact that the long range projectile ammo actually has more damage than the equivalent hybrid charges/crystals. The t2 ammo however does the same amount for all types.
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:45:00 - [27] Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 The Vagabond is an exception to the rule and one of the few ones that can fight out of web range and live to talk about it. The Sleipnir is a glass cannon that requires a giant investment in snakes and faction gear to do the same as the vaga. Lol. Are you implying that sleip w/o nanos+snakes is useless? Welcome to real world: sleip easily outdamages absolution and only reason it prolly will have ot warp away from 1v1 with abso is insanely high resist on abs. Except that even t2 fit sleip is nightmare on battlefield. Also "do same as vaga". Hint: sleip can also tank. It even has bonus towards this, and tanks pretty well. Quote: Minmatar players that fight in PvP usually need many more skillpoints than the rest to be effective, that means it takes more experience to fly them well. Besides saying that Minmatar players do well in pvp is just anecdotal evidence that doesn't hold. You could say the same for Amarr or Gallente and it wouldn't be any different. The problem is that Minmatar have the stigma attached to them of the stabbed vagabond and nanophoon which terrorized so many noobs, but that time is long over. Um clueless are we again? Guess why huginns/rapiers are best recons nowadays. And guess why vaga is still best solo roaming HAC. And why sleip isnt crap either. Ah - sabre... totalllllyyyy useless ship. Instead of screaming on forums try actually pvping with said minmatar ships - they work pretty well. Ammo damage types is last issue anyways because 99% of the time you WILL use barrage. For the rest of combat you have EMP or PP (caldari/amarr t2) - nuff said. Ah and i surely never had problems with "omg reduced damage im nurfed" in my sabre. Maybe because of my "so pathetic" damage killing target before he even gets to half of my shields?
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:52:00 - [28] Originally by: Dixon It's just the short range t1 projectile ammo that has less damage, supposedly balanced by the fact that the long range projectile ammo actually has more damage than the equivalent hybrid charges/crystals. The t2 ammo however does the same amount for all types. Then shouldn't the T2 long range projectile ammo do more damage than other races and the T2 short range less? And regrettably the long range T1 ammo is relatively useless. Gimping shortrange and boosting longrange might look good on paper but is silly in reality. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Shaemell Buttleson Darwin With Attitude oooh Shiny	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:53:00 - [29] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 20/09/2007 12:41:36 He means that the -50% and -37.5% range Hybrid and Laser weapons deal 48 and 44 total damage, while the projectile ones deal only 44 and 40, respectively. This is compounded by the fact that EMP spreads its damage over 3 types, making it even worse. Imho the top minnie ammo should be fusion, doing 48 total with emphasis on exp, emp becomes second and PP third. *But I guess that is just me and the OP*, I started a thread about that once and was flamed to hell and back. I still say that if it really was fine, the T2 projectile ammos need to be nerfed in the same way, since they are right up there with hybrid and laser damage values and thus must be terribly overpowered. Consistency 4tw. Nope you are absolutely correct on this one!
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:59:00 - [30] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 The Vagabond is an exception to the rule and one of the few ones that can fight out of web range and live to talk about it. The Sleipnir is a glass cannon that requires a giant investment in snakes and faction gear to do the same as the vaga. Lol. Are you implying that sleip w/o nanos+snakes is useless? Welcome to real world: sleip easily outdamages absolution and only reason it prolly will have ot warp away from 1v1 with abso is insanely high resist on abs. Except that even t2 fit sleip is nightmare on battlefield. Also "do same as vaga". Hint: sleip can also tank. It even has bonus towards this, and tanks pretty well. Quote: Minmatar players that fight in PvP usually need many more skillpoints than the rest to be effective, that means it takes more experience to fly them well. Besides saying that Minmatar players do well in pvp is just anecdotal evidence that doesn't hold. You could say the same for Amarr or Gallente and it wouldn't be any different. The problem is that Minmatar have the stigma attached to them of the stabbed vagabond and nanophoon which terrorized so many noobs, but that time is long over. Um clueless are we again? Guess why huginns/rapiers are best recons nowadays. And guess why vaga is still best solo roaming HAC. And why sleip isnt crap either. Ah - sabre... totalllllyyyy useless ship. Instead of screaming on forums try actually pvping with said minmatar ships - they work pretty well. Ammo damage types is last issue anyways because 99% of the time you WILL use barrage. For the rest of combat you have EMP or PP (caldari/amarr t2) - nuff said. Ah and i surely never had problems with "omg reduced damage im nurfed" in my sabre. Maybe because of my "so pathetic" damage killing target before he even gets to half of my shields? Calm down. I'm not going to go into detail on every minnie ship because this thread is not about that. Btw, if you use phased plasma against amarr you sure are quite loud mouthed when in reality you should keep quiet so the rest don't know how dumb you are. Hint: every t2 tanking amarr ship fits a thermal hardener (this one is for free). Another thing that your tiny intellect is missing is that the corresponding faction ammo is gimped too, which is what my main issue is about. People use faction ammo instead of the corresponding t2 version because they suck. And our high damage faction ammo is also gimped so we're screwed both ways for high-damage.



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