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Why are Phased Plasma and EMP gimped?

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Dixon Caldari Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.20 14:00:00 - [31] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: Dixon It's just the short range t1 projectile ammo that has less damage, supposedly balanced by the fact that the long range projectile ammo actually has more damage than the equivalent hybrid charges/crystals. The t2 ammo however does the same amount for all types. Then shouldn't the T2 long range projectile ammo do more damage than other races and the T2 short range less? And regrettably the long range T1 ammo is relatively useless. Gimping shortrange and boosting longrange might look good on paper but is silly in reality. Well it was pretty good before t2 ammo. I'd agree that currently 10% more damage on t1 long range ammo isn't that hot.
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 14:06:00 - [32] Originally by: Borasao Quote: Yes but you aren't taking into account that every race has pros and cons, and Minmatar having a couple of good things aren't enough reasons for having some nerfed ammo. Besides most battles happen in close range withing webs or in sniping distance were speed and sig radius don't matter at all. I think the point is that there is no nerf. All you are looking at is some number on the ammo, comparing it to a similar number on some other ammo and saying "Look! Nerf!" If you halve that number but double the rate of fire, you've kept the DPS constant, for example. But... oh no! Look! the number is only half of the other one!!! This is a "it goes to 11" discussion. That one number is not the whole story of Minmatar DPS... in fact, it's only a small part of the story. To take that one number and present it as the complete argument is fallacious. Hahaha, nice one. Minmatar players complain about a small, but valid issue, and it's whining. Amarr, Caldari and Gallente whine non-stop, every single day, about EVERYTHING but that is okay. I'm not going to go deep into that but look at the massive Gallente whinefest about the impending nerf on the way-too-overpowered Myrmidon and Eos. Second, did you miss every other post where it clearly shows that there aren't any other factors that bring this to balance? All those things about capless, speed, and stuff, there's a counter to all that. There is no counter to less damage plain and simple.
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.20 14:06:00 - [33] Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Hint: every t2 tanking amarr ship fits a thermal hardener (this one is for free). Hint: not every. There are quite a lot amarr setups that rely only on base resists. You can now pay me some isks because i dont give free advices. Quote: Another thing that your tiny intellect is missing is that the corresponding faction ammo is gimped too, which is what my main issue is about. People use faction ammo instead of the corresponding t2 version because they suck. And our high damage faction ammo is also gimped so we're screwed both ways for high-damage. Stop crying start flying. Seems instead of learning how to use your "uber gimped" ammo in PvP you try to cry on forums. You get lower damage for price of having multiple damage types and STILL minnies come out on top of most mails.
TheEndofTheWorld	Posted - 2007.09.20 14:13:00 - [34] Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Originally by: Borasao Quote: Yes but you aren't taking into account that every race has pros and cons, and Minmatar having a couple of good things aren't enough reasons for having some nerfed ammo. Besides most battles happen in close range withing webs or in sniping distance were speed and sig radius don't matter at all. I think the point is that there is no nerf. All you are looking at is some number on the ammo, comparing it to a similar number on some other ammo and saying "Look! Nerf!" If you halve that number but double the rate of fire, you've kept the DPS constant, for example. But... oh no! Look! the number is only half of the other one!!! This is a "it goes to 11" discussion. That one number is not the whole story of Minmatar DPS... in fact, it's only a small part of the story. To take that one number and present it as the complete argument is fallacious. Hahaha, nice one. Minmatar players complain about a small, but valid issue, and it's whining. Amarr, Caldari and Gallente whine non-stop, every single day, about EVERYTHING but that is okay. I'm not going to go deep into that but look at the massive Gallente whinefest about the impending nerf on the way-too-overpowered Myrmidon and Eos. Second, did you miss every other post where it clearly shows that there aren't any other factors that bring this to balance? All those things about capless, speed, and stuff, there's a counter to all that. There is no counter to less damage plain and simple. Boosting t1 ammo would boost minmatar t1 ships generally, which they definately do NOT need, they are already the best. Is it hard to understand that?
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 14:19:00 - [35] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Hint: every t2 tanking amarr ship fits a thermal hardener (this one is for free). Hint: not every. There are quite a lot amarr setups that rely only on base resists. You can now pay me some isks because i dont give free advices. Quote: Another thing that your tiny intellect is missing is that the corresponding faction ammo is gimped too, which is what my main issue is about. People use faction ammo instead of the corresponding t2 version because they suck. And our high damage faction ammo is also gimped so we're screwed both ways for high-damage. Stop crying start flying. Seems instead of learning how to use your "uber gimped" ammo in PvP you try to cry on forums. You get lower damage for price of having multiple damage types and STILL minnies come out on top of most mails. A quick trip to your killboard shows that you used 75% amarr ships, 14% gallente ships, and 9% minmatar ships, which is exclusively the sabre. What the hell are you babbling about? You don't know anything. You are just another noob that goes into every Minmatar thread and screams MINMATAR ARE FINE FLY MORE N00B. Do CCP just this one favor and stop posting. Another hint: exaggerating facts like saying "uber gimped" and "cry on the forums" don't make your post look any less dumb and misinformed.
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.20 14:26:00 - [36] Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 A quick trip to your killboard shows that you used 75% amarr ships, 14% gallente ships, and 9% minmatar ships, which is exclusively the sabre. What the hell are you babbling about? You don't know anything. You are just another noob that goes into every Minmatar thread and screams MINMATAR ARE FINE FLY MORE N00B. Do CCP just this one favor and stop posting. Another hint: exaggerating facts like saying "uber gimped" and "cry on the forums" don't make your post look any less dumb and misinformed. A quick trip to your killboard results in ZERO ships used. Either start PvPing or dont discuss it at all. Pretty much sums it up. Also trying to personally attack me wont help you, because atm you are the only one in this thread trying to get some boost w/o having basic clue what hes talking about. You got already enough replies that stated the lower damage on ammo as exchange for multiple damage types is INTENTIONAL even showing that EVERY race in this game shares same "problem" (be it drones or caldari missile boats) with exception of khanid ships and raven. Screaming around and throwing **** at other posters doesnt count as an argument fortunately.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.09.20 14:30:00 - [37] lol. FFS, if you care about this ammo, you should be flying minmatar and if you fly minmatar you should allready know the power of EMP and phased plasma... I normally never post em, but: 2 of them just for you. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.20 14:31:00 - [38] Originally by: madaluap lol. FFS, if you care about this ammo, you should be flying minmatar and if you fly minmatar you should allready know the power of EMP and phased plasma... I normally never post em, but: 2 of them just for you. Dont you know PP is useless? He explained it above. Oh wait... ;p
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 14:36:00 - [39] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 A quick trip to your killboard shows that you used 75% amarr ships, 14% gallente ships, and 9% minmatar ships, which is exclusively the sabre. What the hell are you babbling about? You don't know anything. You are just another noob that goes into every Minmatar thread and screams MINMATAR ARE FINE FLY MORE N00B. Do CCP just this one favor and stop posting. Another hint: exaggerating facts like saying "uber gimped" and "cry on the forums" don't make your post look any less dumb and misinformed. A quick trip to your killboard results in ZERO ships used. Either start PvPing or dont discuss it at all. Pretty much sums it up. Also trying to personally attack me wont help you, because atm you are the only one in this thread trying to get some boost w/o having basic clue what hes talking about. You got already enough replies that stated the lower damage on ammo as exchange for multiple damage types is INTENTIONAL even showing that EVERY race in this game shares same "problem" (be it drones or caldari missile boats) with exception of khanid ships and raven. Screaming around and throwing **** at other posters doesnt count as an argument fortunately. No need to see my killboard because I don't go around telling other people what to do. If you have a big mouth you have to back up with facts which you clearly failed and got caught. Second, I'm not attacking you, I'm helping you. Read all your posts and you'll realize how whiny you sound. Are you 15 or so? Would explain a lot. Third, nobody else shares this problem, you don't know what are you talking about again. Just because 3 peeps show up in some thread saying MINMATAR ARE FINE doesnt make it right. Maybe antimatter damage should be toned down since hybrids are already the highest dps, and the damage bonus makes up for the loss of overall damage right? I'd like to see the epic whine resulting of that. Do you have any actual facts to provide? If not don't post here.
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.20 15:07:00 - [40] Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 No need to see my killboard because I don't go around telling other people what to do. If you have a big mouth you have to back up with facts which you clearly failed and got caught. 1. you are preaching now. If you do it - back up it by actual KB stats. Atm it seems that i have "basic" clue how minmatar works (backed up by KB), you dont have any 2. another hint: if you want to check ships i used (or % amount if it turns you on) better check other KBs too. My TRI stats cover only 1 month, i flown sabre for a "bit" longer. Quote: Second, I'm not attacking you, I'm helping you. Read all your posts and you'll realize how whiny you sound. Are you 15 or so? Would explain a lot. Only person whining here is you. I dont care at all because that "problem" is just your exageration. For me problem doesnt exist at all - i use barrage/hail/emp/pplasma (t1 ones not navy, didnt have time to buy navy ammo for sabre) and never had problem. They work as intended by upping my damage against specified target considerably. And thats nice change compared to amarr or gallente gunboats which cant change damage type to match their opponent. Try shooting eos with astarte and then do same using sleipnir. It tends to give much better results with sleip (EVEN when using "gimped" ammo). Quote: Third, nobody else shares this problem, you don't know what are you talking about again. Was already pointed out for you. Caldari missile boats (except raven) have SAME problem - they get MAX damage by using KINETIC missiles, by using other weapons they GIMP their damage. Same for drones - if you want MAX damage from drones you use Ogre - because they have highest damage mod. If you want to deal em damage with drones you gimp your damage. Variable damage types = lower damage. Only exceptions here are khanids (they are limited to one weapon type) and raven (hit with nerfbat?). Quote: Just because 3 peeps show up in some thread saying MINMATAR ARE FINE doesnt make it right. Even if they are not fine the point you are making is least of the "problems" (as long as ppl agree its a problem, which clearly isnt) Quote: Maybe antimatter damage should be toned down since hybrids are already the highest dps, and the damage bonus makes up for the loss of overall damage right? I'd like to see the epic whine resulting of that. Sure, Void might become useful again. Quote: Do you have any actual facts to provide? If not don't post here. Then show your facts. Because there are none atm except for "damage is lower !! boost!!" If you want more - i could link you to graphs (when ACs were gettign a boost) where iirc t1 ammo was used for comparisons. Boosting t1 ammo would mean graphs go up in damage = nerf autocannons. Happy with this "argument"?
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.20 15:34:00 - [41] PRojectiles have inferior close range ammo but superior long range. Compare Carbonized lead with best Hybrid T1. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 16:09:00 - [42] Originally by: Kagura Nikon PRojectiles have inferior close range ammo but superior long range. Compare Carbonized lead with best Hybrid T1. Except that they are worthless. Nobody uses them in autocannons (nobody smart enough), and in artillery the damage they do is still pathetic and useless for any practical effort.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.20 16:11:00 - [43] Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Originally by: Kagura Nikon PRojectiles have inferior close range ammo but superior long range. Compare Carbonized lead with best Hybrid T1. Except that they are worthless. Nobody uses them in autocannons (nobody smart enough), and in artillery the damage they do is still pathetic and useless for any practical effort. I only use carbonized lead in my arti cane, and lets see.. 168 kills on last 4 months 0 losses. mm pretty far from worthless. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 16:14:00 - [44] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Originally by: Kagura Nikon PRojectiles have inferior close range ammo but superior long range. Compare Carbonized lead with best Hybrid T1. Except that they are worthless. Nobody uses them in autocannons (nobody smart enough), and in artillery the damage they do is still pathetic and useless for any practical effort. I only use carbonized lead in my arti cane, and lets see.. 168 kills on last 4 months 0 losses. mm pretty far from worthless. Woah anecdotal evidence, that's my favourite!
ForumPosterAlt HERRO KITTY	Posted - 2007.09.20 16:23:00 - [45] EMP is the best ammo, noobs. Great damage to both shields and armor. Because posting on the forums is serious business.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.20 16:28:00 - [46] Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Originally by: Kagura Nikon PRojectiles have inferior close range ammo but superior long range. Compare Carbonized lead with best Hybrid T1. Except that they are worthless. Nobody uses them in autocannons (nobody smart enough), and in artillery the damage they do is still pathetic and useless for any practical effort. I only use carbonized lead in my arti cane, and lets see.. 168 kills on last 4 months 0 losses. mm pretty far from worthless. Woah anecdotal evidence, that's my favourite! its factual evidence, and the only one that matters. If you are unable to see how good long range ammo is on arties, you really have a lot to learn on combat. Range is as important, or MORE important than damage, specially when paired to our speed advantage. That is why tempests and Typhoons toast BlastetThrons. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Swamp Ziro GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:01:00 - [47] Edited by: Swamp Ziro on 20/09/2007 17:01:20 Originally by: Kagura Nikon I only use carbonized lead in my arti cane, and lets see.. 168 kills on last 4 months 0 losses. mm pretty far from worthless. Shameless, shameless k/d plug. Surely the fact that you didn't lose your artycane, and got yourself in 168 killmails proves something about carbolead damage. Carbo lead could be doing 0.1 damage and you'd still have the same stats.
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:07:00 - [48] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Originally by: Kagura Nikon PRojectiles have inferior close range ammo but superior long range. Compare Carbonized lead with best Hybrid T1. Except that they are worthless. Nobody uses them in autocannons (nobody smart enough), and in artillery the damage they do is still pathetic and useless for any practical effort. I only use carbonized lead in my arti cane, and lets see.. 168 kills on last 4 months 0 losses. mm pretty far from worthless. Woah anecdotal evidence, that's my favourite! its factual evidence, and the only one that matters. If you are unable to see how good long range ammo is on arties, you really have a lot to learn on combat. Range is as important, or MORE important than damage, specially when paired to our speed advantage. That is why tempests and Typhoons toast BlastetThrons. I think I'll continue using Tremor with my sniping Muninn and Tempest. Thanks for the advice though. Next one in the anecdotal evidence queue please!
Keruli Amarr Frontier Combine Inc Sempiternus	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:14:00 - [49] Quote: Autocannons and artillery are already the worst dps weapons, have the worst ammo capacity and consumption, and worst optimal. Artillery besides has the worst tracking. That's where the cap goes. no they aint the worst dps, that bonus is there to offset youre usuall lesser number of turret points on matari ships!! just check again youre ammo capacity - they changed ammo sizes i think not a year ago! artillery has omfg alpha, and very long range, where tracking matters less, and besides youve got extra slots for tracking computers!! or enhancers... and stop this bulls@@t with cap use, just try to use lasers, when youre cup is going to last something around 1,5 minute just shooting youre guns, you matars have nothing to whine about!!!
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:19:00 - [50] Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Both ammos deal about 10% less damage in all sizes than the other high-damage ammos from lasers and hybrids. Is this a typo? I mean what good is being able to "choose" damage types if a pre-nerf prevents any actual effect? This thread is an embarrassment to Minmatar. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:31:00 - [51] Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Edited by: SpaceTrucker 3000 on 20/09/2007 17:07:21 Originally by: Kagura Nikon its factual evidence, and the only one that matters. If you are unable to see how good long range ammo is on arties, you really have a lot to learn on combat. Range is as important, or MORE important than damage, specially when paired to our speed advantage. That is why tempests and Typhoons toast BlastetThrons. I think I'll continue using Tremor with my sniping Muninn and Tempest. Thanks for the advice though. Next one in the anecdotal evidence queue please! yes, continue to use it while targeting inside Carb lead range, and having the same damage but 80% worse tracking. Continue to gimp yourself. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:35:00 - [52] Originally by: Keruli Quote: Autocannons and artillery are already the worst dps weapons, have the worst ammo capacity and consumption, and worst optimal. Artillery besides has the worst tracking. That's where the cap goes. no they aint the worst dps, that bonus is there to offset youre usuall lesser number of turret points on matari ships!! just check again youre ammo capacity - they changed ammo sizes i think not a year ago! artillery has omfg alpha, and very long range, where tracking matters less, and besides youve got extra slots for tracking computers!! or enhancers... and stop this bulls@@t with cap use, just try to use lasers, when youre cup is going to last something around 1,5 minute just shooting youre guns, you matars have nothing to whine about!!! Jesus another MINMATAR IS FINE troll who wandered out of his cage. This is getting dumber and dumber. There is a Boost Amarr thread that just opened, go check it out All your points have already been rebutted many, many times not just in here, but everything you wrote is wrong, except the ammo thing. Yes, they increased the ammo capacity and but they still consume the most. Now get out.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:35:00 - [53] Edited by: madaluap on 20/09/2007 17:35:53 Originally by: Keruli you matars have nothing to whine about!!! THIS THIS THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT, WTF IS THE OP ON ABOUT! You take the ammo compare with other races and whine. I mean you must agree, thats pretty dumb isnt it. Not taking the ships you use it on in account, not take the weapons you use it with into account. Flame anyone who actually used the race and think they are fine. Than quote other people that they dont know **** cause they dont fly the race. Its a joke! Tempest has 6 guns and dual damagebonus. Mega has 7 guns and 1 damagebonus. You get 33% rof bonus on top, with guns that can deal multiple damagetypes. What is there to whine? I fly minmatar, i fly gallente, they are fine. PERIOD. Now lets focus on making amarr and caldari a bit more worthwhile. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Bellum Eternus Gallente Blood Corsair's The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:40:00 - [54] The answer is simple why they do less damage: it's projectile ammo. Projectiles have a much higher ROF than hybrids (which is what is being compared here), and no cap use. Everything is working as intended. Please think of something else to troll about. How about comparing the loss of DPS while switching damage types juxtaposed to missiles, which don't lose any DPS at all if they switch damage types? Nerf Caldari. Bellum Eternus [Vid]Blood Corsairs - Day One
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:40:00 - [55] Originally by: Kagura Nikon yes, continue to use it while targeting inside Carb lead range, and having the same damage but 80% worse tracking. Continue to gimp yourself. Do you realise you are making a fool of youself? Tremor does the same damage as depleted uranium and has a 20% range bonus over Carb so if I'm inside your range it doesn't mean ****. Even with the tracking penalty I'll be far away enough that I'm going to hit you for more damage. How stupid do you have to be do use carb instead of tremor for sniping? This is the problem with the forums, clueless people barking around whatever they think. Another troll beaten with facts, next please.
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:42:00 - [56] Originally by: Bellum Eternus The answer is simple why they do less damage: it's projectile ammo. Projectiles have a much higher ROF than hybrids (which is what is being compared here), and no cap use. Everything is working as intended. Please think of something else to troll about. How about comparing the loss of DPS while switching damage types juxtaposed to missiles, which don't lose any DPS at all if they switch damage types? Nerf Caldari. Artillery has the slowest rof, champ. Btw Amarr don't have to waste time changing ammo either, nerf Amarr too?
Alt 363	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:46:00 - [57] I think what should be done is this: Fusion: 48 damage (its still minmatar primary damage types so it doesnt need to be reduced... and it should be the highest damage as, again, minnie damage types). EMP: 44 PP: 40 There. You still take a DPS hit for changing damage types, but you now have the option to do your primary damage types at maximum damage. It doesn't make projectiles any stronger at killing shields, but it does give them some good t1 hitting power on armor again. Why this is not the case currently is baffling. The only excuse anyone has for EMP only being 44 and yet at the top of the damage scale is its damage types. I vehemently disagree that EMP is even useful anymore in terms of its damage types (spread across 3 is NOT USEFUL), but we can throw this argument completely out of the window if Fusion was boosted to 48 and EMP and PP were kept the same.
Alt 363	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:47:00 - [58] Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Originally by: Kagura Nikon yes, continue to use it while targeting inside Carb lead range, and having the same damage but 80% worse tracking. Continue to gimp yourself. Do you realise you are making a fool of youself? Tremor does the same damage as depleted uranium and has a 20% range bonus over Carb so if I'm inside your range it doesn't mean ****. Even with the tracking penalty I'll be far away enough that I'm going to hit you for more damage. How stupid do you have to be do use carb instead of tremor for sniping? This is the problem with the forums, clueless people barking around whatever they think. Another troll beaten with facts, next please. Clueless idiot^. Faction carbonized lead is far more useful than tremor for many ships.
ArmyOfMe hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.09.20 18:50:00 - [59] Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Originally by: Kerdrak And how much cap saves this ammo? is not around 100%? I read more stupid whines everyday... Autocannons and artillery are already the worst dps weapons, have the worst ammo capacity and consumption, and worst optimal. Artillery besides has the worst tracking. That's where the cap goes. Are you even remotely trying to suggest that minmatar needs a boost? Minmatar is the best pvp race btw if you haven't noticed. can you please tell that to everyone who complains about gallante being overpowerd
Bellum Eternus Gallente Blood Corsair's The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.20 19:18:00 - [60] Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Originally by: Bellum Eternus The answer is simple why they do less damage: it's projectile ammo. Projectiles have a much higher ROF than hybrids (which is what is being compared here), and no cap use. Everything is working as intended. Please think of something else to troll about. How about comparing the loss of DPS while switching damage types juxtaposed to missiles, which don't lose any DPS at all if they switch damage types? Nerf Caldari. Artillery has the slowest rof, champ. Btw Amarr don't have to waste time changing ammo either, nerf Amarr too? Was speaking to ACs, not Arty. Arty has the highest damage mod and most volley damage of any weapon in game. Try again. Bellum Eternus [Vid]Blood Corsairs - Day One

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