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Why are Phased Plasma and EMP gimped?

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SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:30:00 - [1] Both ammos deal about 10% less damage in all sizes than the other high-damage ammos from lasers and hybrids. Is this a typo? I mean what good is being able to "choose" damage types if a pre-nerf prevents any actual effect?
fdsafjdksajfkdjsakfdsa	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:32:00 - [2] It's not gallente afaik
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:34:00 - [3] Yes both are projectile ammos, but what do you mean?
Lisento Slaven Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:35:00 - [4] EMP and Phased Plasma are fine. There's a lot more in play other than just the raw numbers. --- Put in space whales!
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:38:00 - [5] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 20/09/2007 12:41:36 He means that the -50% and -37.5% range Hybrid and Laser weapons deal 48 and 44 total damage, while the projectile ones deal only 44 and 40, respectively. This is compounded by the fact that EMP spreads its damage over 3 types, making it even worse. Imho the top minnie ammo should be fusion, doing 48 total with emphasis on exp, emp becomes second and PP third. But I guess that is just me and the OP, I started a thread about that once and was flamed to hell and back. I still say that if it really was fine, the T2 projectile ammos need to be nerfed in the same way, since they are right up there with hybrid and laser damage values and thus must be terribly overpowered. Consistency 4tw. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Amy Wang	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:44:00 - [6] Phased Plasma is fine, the problem with EMP however is that it has a too high portion of explosive and kinetic damage (roughly 2/3 of EMP damage are NOT EM opposed to common misconception) which renders the ammo useless for most situations which in turn makes phased plasma more useful. Another issue is that there is no alternative to barrage in most cases for autocannon users because you nearly always fight in falloff and the 50% falloff bonus is needed to be competitive while e.g. hybrid users have faction antimatter which basically is an ammo with void like damage but without the penalties void brings while autocannon users have to resort to hail for similar damage but with all the severe drawbacks.
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:46:00 - [7] Originally by: Lisento Slaven EMP and Phased Plasma are fine. There's a lot more in play other than just the raw numbers. No, not really. In the case where a player tanks his ship it's always an omnitank so doing different types of damage doesn't really matter that much after all, all that counts is raw damage. In untanked ships (didn't include crystals): Antimatter 32.8 34.0 EMP 31.2 28.4 Plutonium 30.4 31.0 PP 30.4 26.8 So really what's the reason for this?
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:49:00 - [8] Originally by: Amy Wang Phased Plasma is fine, the problem with EMP however is that it has a too high portion of explosive and kinetic damage (roughly 2/3 of EMP damage are NOT EM opposed to common misconception) which renders the ammo useless for most situations which in turn makes phased plasma more useful. Another issue is that there is no alternative to barrage in most cases for autocannon users because you nearly always fight in falloff and the 50% falloff bonus is needed to be competitive while e.g. hybrid users have faction antimatter which basically is an ammo with void like damage but without the penalties void brings while autocannon users have to resort to hail for similar damage but with all the severe drawbacks. Yes, the second point is another thing I was going to say. But why do you say PP fine, it really deals less damage than any of the other ammos, I think you mean Fusion?
Kerdrak 3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:51:00 - [9] And how much cap saves this ammo? is not around 100%? I read more stupid whines everyday... ________________________________________
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:51:00 - [10] Try to fit a tank that has 80% across the board... bloody hard without a HAC and officer mods.
Kyrynn	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:53:00 - [11] Because you get RoF bonuses on ships with as many turrets as their counterparts while they get damage bonuses. (eg: Maelstrom vs Hyp and Don). The better bonus keeps it balanced.
Lisento Slaven Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:54:00 - [12] Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Antimatter 32.8 34.0 EMP 31.2 28.4 Plutonium 30.4 31.0 PP 30.4 26.8 So really what's the reason for this? I don't know what the reason is but whatever it is, it works. Plenty of my minmatar ships get top damage on killmails with other ships of Amarr and Gallente types on there. --- Put in space whales!
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:56:00 - [13] Originally by: Kerdrak And how much cap saves this ammo? is not around 100%? I read more stupid whines everyday... Autocannons and artillery are already the worst dps weapons, have the worst ammo capacity and consumption, and worst optimal. Artillery besides has the worst tracking. That's where the cap goes.
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:58:00 - [14] Originally by: Lisento Slaven Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Antimatter 32.8 34.0 EMP 31.2 28.4 Plutonium 30.4 31.0 PP 30.4 26.8 So really what's the reason for this? I don't know what the reason is but whatever it is, it works. Plenty of my minmatar ships get top damage on killmails with other ships of Amarr and Gallente types on there. That's the most baseless reason you can talk about. I could show dozens of killmails with amarrian ships outdamaging sniping Tempests, Maelstroms and any other thing, so discussing killmails is really pointless.
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:00:00 - [15] Originally by: Kyrynn Because you get RoF bonuses on ships with as many turrets as their counterparts while they get damage bonuses. (eg: Maelstrom vs Hyp and Don). The better bonus keeps it balanced. Minmatar ships get rof bonuses because projectile weapons are pre-nerfed so that they don't do much damage when fit on other ships. Even with bonuses they deal much less damage so that's not a valid reason.
TheEndofTheWorld	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:06:00 - [16] Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Originally by: Kerdrak And how much cap saves this ammo? is not around 100%? I read more stupid whines everyday... Autocannons and artillery are already the worst dps weapons, have the worst ammo capacity and consumption, and worst optimal. Artillery besides has the worst tracking. That's where the cap goes. Are you even remotely trying to suggest that minmatar needs a boost? Minmatar is the best pvp race btw if you haven't noticed.
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:10:00 - [17] Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Originally by: Kerdrak And how much cap saves this ammo? is not around 100%? I read more stupid whines everyday... Autocannons and artillery are already the worst dps weapons, have the worst ammo capacity and consumption, and worst optimal. Artillery besides has the worst tracking. That's where the cap goes. Are you even remotely trying to suggest that minmatar needs a boost? Minmatar is the best pvp race btw if you haven't noticed. Do you have any real arguments to my original question?
Borasao	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:17:00 - [18] I think he's saying that a combination of factors, such as higher base speeds, lower signatures, and a host of other things make up for projectile ammo's slightly lower damage numbers. You can't examine the numbers on the ammo in a vacuum... there are tons of modifiers, some not directly on the gun itself, that come into play. As others have said... higher rates of fire (which account for higher ammo usage) also give the added benefit of more damage over time (the time that the gun is firing). From experience, players who fly Minmatar ships tend to do fairly well in PvP (both 1-on-1, in small gangs, and in fleets) so I'm thinking that they aren't hurt so bad by lower damage numbers on the ammo...
Reem Fairchild	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:25:00 - [19] Originally by: Leandro Salazar This is compounded by the fact that EMP spreads its damage over 3 types, making it even worse. How does damage being spread over several damage types make it worse? It makes it a lot better if the target is tanking heavily on one or two resists, and at worst its the same thing if he has roughly equal resists across the board.
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:30:00 - [20] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Leandro Salazar This is compounded by the fact that EMP spreads its damage over 3 types, making it even worse. How does damage being spread over several damage types make it worse? It makes it a lot better if the target is tanking heavily on one or two resists, and at worst its the same thing if he has roughly equal resists across the board. Can i get a bit less damage but "spread over explosive type" laser crystal please?
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:33:00 - [21] Originally by: Borasao I think he's saying that a combination of factors, such as higher base speeds, lower signatures, and a host of other things make up for projectile ammo's slightly lower damage numbers. You can't examine the numbers on the ammo in a vacuum... there are tons of modifiers, some not directly on the gun itself, that come into play. As others have said... higher rates of fire (which account for higher ammo usage) also give the added benefit of more damage over time (the time that the gun is firing). From experience, players who fly Minmatar ships tend to do fairly well in PvP (both 1-on-1, in small gangs, and in fleets) so I'm thinking that they aren't hurt so bad by lower damage numbers on the ammo... Yes but you aren't taking into account that every race has pros and cons, and Minmatar having a couple of good things aren't enough reasons for having some nerfed ammo. Besides most battles happen in close range withing webs or in sniping distance were speed and sig radius don't matter at all. The Vagabond is an exception to the rule and one of the few ones that can fight out of web range and live to talk about it. The Sleipnir is a glass cannon that requires a giant investment in snakes and faction gear to do the same as the vaga. Minmatar players that fight in PvP usually need many more skillpoints than the rest to be effective, that means it takes more experience to fly them well. Besides saying that Minmatar players do well in pvp is just anecdotal evidence that doesn't hold. You could say the same for Amarr or Gallente and it wouldn't be any different. The problem is that Minmatar have the stigma attached to them of the stabbed vagabond and nanophoon which terrorized so many noobs, but that time is long over.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:34:00 - [22] At least against T2 ships you usually know what the resistance hole will be, damage hitting there would be better. And the thing that irks me most is that the top end minmatar damage is NOT explosive focused as it should be. And please, someone tell me, how can it be fine that minmatar T1 ammo is damage reduced compared to other weapon types, but T2 ammo is not? Either both should be reduced, or neither. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:40:00 - [23] Originally by: Leandro Salazar At least against T2 ships you usually know what the resistance hole will be, damage hitting there would be better. And the thing that irks me most is that the top end minmatar damage is NOT explosive focused as it should be. And please, someone tell me, how can it be fine that minmatar T1 ammo is damage reduced compared to other weapon types, but T2 ammo is not? Either both should be reduced, or neither. Exactly. And all other t1 projectile ammo should be nerfed down too, since apparently having sub-par ammo is just "fine".
Reem Fairchild	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:43:00 - [24] Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 20/09/2007 13:43:38 High damage projectile standard ammo has less damage than equivalent ammo for other turrets because long range projectile standard ammo has higher damage than equivalent ammo for other turrets.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:44:00 - [25] Edited by: Aramendel on 20/09/2007 13:45:45 Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Both ammos deal about 10% less damage in all sizes than the other high-damage ammos from lasers and hybrids. Is this a typo? I mean what good is being able to "choose" damage types if a pre-nerf prevents any actual effect? It means that you have to gasp think when to use it and when not. Weaponsystems which have variable damagetypes can only very rarely switch them without loosing dps. Most misisleships have a racial damage type dps bonus, so they loose dps when using other missiles. Drone users deal the most dps with thermal drones, other drone types have a lower damage mod. And projectile ammo which is not exp/kin does less damage than that of other races... The only exeptions here owuld be the raven (which is one of the reasons why it is so popular for NPCing) and the new khanid ships (which instead have a limitation to shortrange missiles). Its no minmatar gimpage, its a general balance feature and present in many races. Originally by: Leandro Salazar He means that the -50% and -37.5% range Hybrid and Laser weapons deal 48 and 44 total damage, while the projectile ones deal only 44 and 40, respectively. This is compounded by the fact that EMP spreads its damage over 3 types, making it even worse. Imho the top minnie ammo should be fusion, doing 48 total with emphasis on exp, emp becomes second and PP third. But I guess that is just me and the OP, I started a thread about that once and was flamed to hell and back. I still say that if it really was fine, the T2 projectile ammos need to be nerfed in the same way, since they are right up there with hybrid and laser damage values and thus must be terribly overpowered. Consistency 4tw. I would agree with that though, exept that I would make EMP 3rd since it would be more balanced. Max damage ammo for armor and right behind a maxdamage ammo for shields would IMO a bit over the top.
Dixon Caldari Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:45:00 - [26] Originally by: Leandro Salazar At least against T2 ships you usually know what the resistance hole will be, damage hitting there would be better. And the thing that irks me most is that the top end minmatar damage is NOT explosive focused as it should be. And please, someone tell me, how can it be fine that minmatar T1 ammo is damage reduced compared to other weapon types, but T2 ammo is not? Either both should be reduced, or neither. It's just the short range t1 projectile ammo that has less damage, supposedly balanced by the fact that the long range projectile ammo actually has more damage than the equivalent hybrid charges/crystals. The t2 ammo however does the same amount for all types.
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:45:00 - [27] Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 The Vagabond is an exception to the rule and one of the few ones that can fight out of web range and live to talk about it. The Sleipnir is a glass cannon that requires a giant investment in snakes and faction gear to do the same as the vaga. Lol. Are you implying that sleip w/o nanos+snakes is useless? Welcome to real world: sleip easily outdamages absolution and only reason it prolly will have ot warp away from 1v1 with abso is insanely high resist on abs. Except that even t2 fit sleip is nightmare on battlefield. Also "do same as vaga". Hint: sleip can also tank. It even has bonus towards this, and tanks pretty well. Quote: Minmatar players that fight in PvP usually need many more skillpoints than the rest to be effective, that means it takes more experience to fly them well. Besides saying that Minmatar players do well in pvp is just anecdotal evidence that doesn't hold. You could say the same for Amarr or Gallente and it wouldn't be any different. The problem is that Minmatar have the stigma attached to them of the stabbed vagabond and nanophoon which terrorized so many noobs, but that time is long over. Um clueless are we again? Guess why huginns/rapiers are best recons nowadays. And guess why vaga is still best solo roaming HAC. And why sleip isnt crap either. Ah - sabre... totalllllyyyy useless ship. Instead of screaming on forums try actually pvping with said minmatar ships - they work pretty well. Ammo damage types is last issue anyways because 99% of the time you WILL use barrage. For the rest of combat you have EMP or PP (caldari/amarr t2) - nuff said. Ah and i surely never had problems with "omg reduced damage im nurfed" in my sabre. Maybe because of my "so pathetic" damage killing target before he even gets to half of my shields?
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:52:00 - [28] Originally by: Dixon It's just the short range t1 projectile ammo that has less damage, supposedly balanced by the fact that the long range projectile ammo actually has more damage than the equivalent hybrid charges/crystals. The t2 ammo however does the same amount for all types. Then shouldn't the T2 long range projectile ammo do more damage than other races and the T2 short range less? And regrettably the long range T1 ammo is relatively useless. Gimping shortrange and boosting longrange might look good on paper but is silly in reality. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Shaemell Buttleson Darwin With Attitude oooh Shiny	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:53:00 - [29] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 20/09/2007 12:41:36 He means that the -50% and -37.5% range Hybrid and Laser weapons deal 48 and 44 total damage, while the projectile ones deal only 44 and 40, respectively. This is compounded by the fact that EMP spreads its damage over 3 types, making it even worse. Imho the top minnie ammo should be fusion, doing 48 total with emphasis on exp, emp becomes second and PP third. *But I guess that is just me and the OP*, I started a thread about that once and was flamed to hell and back. I still say that if it really was fine, the T2 projectile ammos need to be nerfed in the same way, since they are right up there with hybrid and laser damage values and thus must be terribly overpowered. Consistency 4tw. Nope you are absolutely correct on this one!
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:59:00 - [30] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 The Vagabond is an exception to the rule and one of the few ones that can fight out of web range and live to talk about it. The Sleipnir is a glass cannon that requires a giant investment in snakes and faction gear to do the same as the vaga. Lol. Are you implying that sleip w/o nanos+snakes is useless? Welcome to real world: sleip easily outdamages absolution and only reason it prolly will have ot warp away from 1v1 with abso is insanely high resist on abs. Except that even t2 fit sleip is nightmare on battlefield. Also "do same as vaga". Hint: sleip can also tank. It even has bonus towards this, and tanks pretty well. Quote: Minmatar players that fight in PvP usually need many more skillpoints than the rest to be effective, that means it takes more experience to fly them well. Besides saying that Minmatar players do well in pvp is just anecdotal evidence that doesn't hold. You could say the same for Amarr or Gallente and it wouldn't be any different. The problem is that Minmatar have the stigma attached to them of the stabbed vagabond and nanophoon which terrorized so many noobs, but that time is long over. Um clueless are we again? Guess why huginns/rapiers are best recons nowadays. And guess why vaga is still best solo roaming HAC. And why sleip isnt crap either. Ah - sabre... totalllllyyyy useless ship. Instead of screaming on forums try actually pvping with said minmatar ships - they work pretty well. Ammo damage types is last issue anyways because 99% of the time you WILL use barrage. For the rest of combat you have EMP or PP (caldari/amarr t2) - nuff said. Ah and i surely never had problems with "omg reduced damage im nurfed" in my sabre. Maybe because of my "so pathetic" damage killing target before he even gets to half of my shields? Calm down. I'm not going to go into detail on every minnie ship because this thread is not about that. Btw, if you use phased plasma against amarr you sure are quite loud mouthed when in reality you should keep quiet so the rest don't know how dumb you are. Hint: every t2 tanking amarr ship fits a thermal hardener (this one is for free). Another thing that your tiny intellect is missing is that the corresponding faction ammo is gimped too, which is what my main issue is about. People use faction ammo instead of the corresponding t2 version because they suck. And our high damage faction ammo is also gimped so we're screwed both ways for high-damage.
Dixon Caldari Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.20 14:00:00 - [31] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: Dixon It's just the short range t1 projectile ammo that has less damage, supposedly balanced by the fact that the long range projectile ammo actually has more damage than the equivalent hybrid charges/crystals. The t2 ammo however does the same amount for all types. Then shouldn't the T2 long range projectile ammo do more damage than other races and the T2 short range less? And regrettably the long range T1 ammo is relatively useless. Gimping shortrange and boosting longrange might look good on paper but is silly in reality. Well it was pretty good before t2 ammo. I'd agree that currently 10% more damage on t1 long range ammo isn't that hot.
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 14:06:00 - [32] Originally by: Borasao Quote: Yes but you aren't taking into account that every race has pros and cons, and Minmatar having a couple of good things aren't enough reasons for having some nerfed ammo. Besides most battles happen in close range withing webs or in sniping distance were speed and sig radius don't matter at all. I think the point is that there is no nerf. All you are looking at is some number on the ammo, comparing it to a similar number on some other ammo and saying "Look! Nerf!" If you halve that number but double the rate of fire, you've kept the DPS constant, for example. But... oh no! Look! the number is only half of the other one!!! This is a "it goes to 11" discussion. That one number is not the whole story of Minmatar DPS... in fact, it's only a small part of the story. To take that one number and present it as the complete argument is fallacious. Hahaha, nice one. Minmatar players complain about a small, but valid issue, and it's whining. Amarr, Caldari and Gallente whine non-stop, every single day, about EVERYTHING but that is okay. I'm not going to go deep into that but look at the massive Gallente whinefest about the impending nerf on the way-too-overpowered Myrmidon and Eos. Second, did you miss every other post where it clearly shows that there aren't any other factors that bring this to balance? All those things about capless, speed, and stuff, there's a counter to all that. There is no counter to less damage plain and simple.
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.20 14:06:00 - [33] Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Hint: every t2 tanking amarr ship fits a thermal hardener (this one is for free). Hint: not every. There are quite a lot amarr setups that rely only on base resists. You can now pay me some isks because i dont give free advices. Quote: Another thing that your tiny intellect is missing is that the corresponding faction ammo is gimped too, which is what my main issue is about. People use faction ammo instead of the corresponding t2 version because they suck. And our high damage faction ammo is also gimped so we're screwed both ways for high-damage. Stop crying start flying. Seems instead of learning how to use your "uber gimped" ammo in PvP you try to cry on forums. You get lower damage for price of having multiple damage types and STILL minnies come out on top of most mails.
TheEndofTheWorld	Posted - 2007.09.20 14:13:00 - [34] Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Originally by: Borasao Quote: Yes but you aren't taking into account that every race has pros and cons, and Minmatar having a couple of good things aren't enough reasons for having some nerfed ammo. Besides most battles happen in close range withing webs or in sniping distance were speed and sig radius don't matter at all. I think the point is that there is no nerf. All you are looking at is some number on the ammo, comparing it to a similar number on some other ammo and saying "Look! Nerf!" If you halve that number but double the rate of fire, you've kept the DPS constant, for example. But... oh no! Look! the number is only half of the other one!!! This is a "it goes to 11" discussion. That one number is not the whole story of Minmatar DPS... in fact, it's only a small part of the story. To take that one number and present it as the complete argument is fallacious. Hahaha, nice one. Minmatar players complain about a small, but valid issue, and it's whining. Amarr, Caldari and Gallente whine non-stop, every single day, about EVERYTHING but that is okay. I'm not going to go deep into that but look at the massive Gallente whinefest about the impending nerf on the way-too-overpowered Myrmidon and Eos. Second, did you miss every other post where it clearly shows that there aren't any other factors that bring this to balance? All those things about capless, speed, and stuff, there's a counter to all that. There is no counter to less damage plain and simple. Boosting t1 ammo would boost minmatar t1 ships generally, which they definately do NOT need, they are already the best. Is it hard to understand that?
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 14:19:00 - [35] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Hint: every t2 tanking amarr ship fits a thermal hardener (this one is for free). Hint: not every. There are quite a lot amarr setups that rely only on base resists. You can now pay me some isks because i dont give free advices. Quote: Another thing that your tiny intellect is missing is that the corresponding faction ammo is gimped too, which is what my main issue is about. People use faction ammo instead of the corresponding t2 version because they suck. And our high damage faction ammo is also gimped so we're screwed both ways for high-damage. Stop crying start flying. Seems instead of learning how to use your "uber gimped" ammo in PvP you try to cry on forums. You get lower damage for price of having multiple damage types and STILL minnies come out on top of most mails. A quick trip to your killboard shows that you used 75% amarr ships, 14% gallente ships, and 9% minmatar ships, which is exclusively the sabre. What the hell are you babbling about? You don't know anything. You are just another noob that goes into every Minmatar thread and screams MINMATAR ARE FINE FLY MORE N00B. Do CCP just this one favor and stop posting. Another hint: exaggerating facts like saying "uber gimped" and "cry on the forums" don't make your post look any less dumb and misinformed.
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.20 14:26:00 - [36] Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 A quick trip to your killboard shows that you used 75% amarr ships, 14% gallente ships, and 9% minmatar ships, which is exclusively the sabre. What the hell are you babbling about? You don't know anything. You are just another noob that goes into every Minmatar thread and screams MINMATAR ARE FINE FLY MORE N00B. Do CCP just this one favor and stop posting. Another hint: exaggerating facts like saying "uber gimped" and "cry on the forums" don't make your post look any less dumb and misinformed. A quick trip to your killboard results in ZERO ships used. Either start PvPing or dont discuss it at all. Pretty much sums it up. Also trying to personally attack me wont help you, because atm you are the only one in this thread trying to get some boost w/o having basic clue what hes talking about. You got already enough replies that stated the lower damage on ammo as exchange for multiple damage types is INTENTIONAL even showing that EVERY race in this game shares same "problem" (be it drones or caldari missile boats) with exception of khanid ships and raven. Screaming around and throwing **** at other posters doesnt count as an argument fortunately.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.09.20 14:30:00 - [37] lol. FFS, if you care about this ammo, you should be flying minmatar and if you fly minmatar you should allready know the power of EMP and phased plasma... I normally never post em, but: 2 of them just for you. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.20 14:31:00 - [38] Originally by: madaluap lol. FFS, if you care about this ammo, you should be flying minmatar and if you fly minmatar you should allready know the power of EMP and phased plasma... I normally never post em, but: 2 of them just for you. Dont you know PP is useless? He explained it above. Oh wait... ;p
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 14:36:00 - [39] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 A quick trip to your killboard shows that you used 75% amarr ships, 14% gallente ships, and 9% minmatar ships, which is exclusively the sabre. What the hell are you babbling about? You don't know anything. You are just another noob that goes into every Minmatar thread and screams MINMATAR ARE FINE FLY MORE N00B. Do CCP just this one favor and stop posting. Another hint: exaggerating facts like saying "uber gimped" and "cry on the forums" don't make your post look any less dumb and misinformed. A quick trip to your killboard results in ZERO ships used. Either start PvPing or dont discuss it at all. Pretty much sums it up. Also trying to personally attack me wont help you, because atm you are the only one in this thread trying to get some boost w/o having basic clue what hes talking about. You got already enough replies that stated the lower damage on ammo as exchange for multiple damage types is INTENTIONAL even showing that EVERY race in this game shares same "problem" (be it drones or caldari missile boats) with exception of khanid ships and raven. Screaming around and throwing **** at other posters doesnt count as an argument fortunately. No need to see my killboard because I don't go around telling other people what to do. If you have a big mouth you have to back up with facts which you clearly failed and got caught. Second, I'm not attacking you, I'm helping you. Read all your posts and you'll realize how whiny you sound. Are you 15 or so? Would explain a lot. Third, nobody else shares this problem, you don't know what are you talking about again. Just because 3 peeps show up in some thread saying MINMATAR ARE FINE doesnt make it right. Maybe antimatter damage should be toned down since hybrids are already the highest dps, and the damage bonus makes up for the loss of overall damage right? I'd like to see the epic whine resulting of that. Do you have any actual facts to provide? If not don't post here.
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.20 15:07:00 - [40] Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 No need to see my killboard because I don't go around telling other people what to do. If you have a big mouth you have to back up with facts which you clearly failed and got caught. 1. you are preaching now. If you do it - back up it by actual KB stats. Atm it seems that i have "basic" clue how minmatar works (backed up by KB), you dont have any 2. another hint: if you want to check ships i used (or % amount if it turns you on) better check other KBs too. My TRI stats cover only 1 month, i flown sabre for a "bit" longer. Quote: Second, I'm not attacking you, I'm helping you. Read all your posts and you'll realize how whiny you sound. Are you 15 or so? Would explain a lot. Only person whining here is you. I dont care at all because that "problem" is just your exageration. For me problem doesnt exist at all - i use barrage/hail/emp/pplasma (t1 ones not navy, didnt have time to buy navy ammo for sabre) and never had problem. They work as intended by upping my damage against specified target considerably. And thats nice change compared to amarr or gallente gunboats which cant change damage type to match their opponent. Try shooting eos with astarte and then do same using sleipnir. It tends to give much better results with sleip (EVEN when using "gimped" ammo). Quote: Third, nobody else shares this problem, you don't know what are you talking about again. Was already pointed out for you. Caldari missile boats (except raven) have SAME problem - they get MAX damage by using KINETIC missiles, by using other weapons they GIMP their damage. Same for drones - if you want MAX damage from drones you use Ogre - because they have highest damage mod. If you want to deal em damage with drones you gimp your damage. Variable damage types = lower damage. Only exceptions here are khanids (they are limited to one weapon type) and raven (hit with nerfbat?). Quote: Just because 3 peeps show up in some thread saying MINMATAR ARE FINE doesnt make it right. Even if they are not fine the point you are making is least of the "problems" (as long as ppl agree its a problem, which clearly isnt) Quote: Maybe antimatter damage should be toned down since hybrids are already the highest dps, and the damage bonus makes up for the loss of overall damage right? I'd like to see the epic whine resulting of that. Sure, Void might become useful again. Quote: Do you have any actual facts to provide? If not don't post here. Then show your facts. Because there are none atm except for "damage is lower !! boost!!" If you want more - i could link you to graphs (when ACs were gettign a boost) where iirc t1 ammo was used for comparisons. Boosting t1 ammo would mean graphs go up in damage = nerf autocannons. Happy with this "argument"?
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.20 15:34:00 - [41] PRojectiles have inferior close range ammo but superior long range. Compare Carbonized lead with best Hybrid T1. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 16:09:00 - [42] Originally by: Kagura Nikon PRojectiles have inferior close range ammo but superior long range. Compare Carbonized lead with best Hybrid T1. Except that they are worthless. Nobody uses them in autocannons (nobody smart enough), and in artillery the damage they do is still pathetic and useless for any practical effort.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.20 16:11:00 - [43] Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Originally by: Kagura Nikon PRojectiles have inferior close range ammo but superior long range. Compare Carbonized lead with best Hybrid T1. Except that they are worthless. Nobody uses them in autocannons (nobody smart enough), and in artillery the damage they do is still pathetic and useless for any practical effort. I only use carbonized lead in my arti cane, and lets see.. 168 kills on last 4 months 0 losses. mm pretty far from worthless. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 16:14:00 - [44] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Originally by: Kagura Nikon PRojectiles have inferior close range ammo but superior long range. Compare Carbonized lead with best Hybrid T1. Except that they are worthless. Nobody uses them in autocannons (nobody smart enough), and in artillery the damage they do is still pathetic and useless for any practical effort. I only use carbonized lead in my arti cane, and lets see.. 168 kills on last 4 months 0 losses. mm pretty far from worthless. Woah anecdotal evidence, that's my favourite!
ForumPosterAlt HERRO KITTY	Posted - 2007.09.20 16:23:00 - [45] EMP is the best ammo, noobs. Great damage to both shields and armor. Because posting on the forums is serious business.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.20 16:28:00 - [46] Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Originally by: Kagura Nikon PRojectiles have inferior close range ammo but superior long range. Compare Carbonized lead with best Hybrid T1. Except that they are worthless. Nobody uses them in autocannons (nobody smart enough), and in artillery the damage they do is still pathetic and useless for any practical effort. I only use carbonized lead in my arti cane, and lets see.. 168 kills on last 4 months 0 losses. mm pretty far from worthless. Woah anecdotal evidence, that's my favourite! its factual evidence, and the only one that matters. If you are unable to see how good long range ammo is on arties, you really have a lot to learn on combat. Range is as important, or MORE important than damage, specially when paired to our speed advantage. That is why tempests and Typhoons toast BlastetThrons. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Swamp Ziro GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:01:00 - [47] Edited by: Swamp Ziro on 20/09/2007 17:01:20 Originally by: Kagura Nikon I only use carbonized lead in my arti cane, and lets see.. 168 kills on last 4 months 0 losses. mm pretty far from worthless. Shameless, shameless k/d plug. Surely the fact that you didn't lose your artycane, and got yourself in 168 killmails proves something about carbolead damage. Carbo lead could be doing 0.1 damage and you'd still have the same stats.
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:07:00 - [48] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Originally by: Kagura Nikon PRojectiles have inferior close range ammo but superior long range. Compare Carbonized lead with best Hybrid T1. Except that they are worthless. Nobody uses them in autocannons (nobody smart enough), and in artillery the damage they do is still pathetic and useless for any practical effort. I only use carbonized lead in my arti cane, and lets see.. 168 kills on last 4 months 0 losses. mm pretty far from worthless. Woah anecdotal evidence, that's my favourite! its factual evidence, and the only one that matters. If you are unable to see how good long range ammo is on arties, you really have a lot to learn on combat. Range is as important, or MORE important than damage, specially when paired to our speed advantage. That is why tempests and Typhoons toast BlastetThrons. I think I'll continue using Tremor with my sniping Muninn and Tempest. Thanks for the advice though. Next one in the anecdotal evidence queue please!
Keruli Amarr Frontier Combine Inc Sempiternus	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:14:00 - [49] Quote: Autocannons and artillery are already the worst dps weapons, have the worst ammo capacity and consumption, and worst optimal. Artillery besides has the worst tracking. That's where the cap goes. no they aint the worst dps, that bonus is there to offset youre usuall lesser number of turret points on matari ships!! just check again youre ammo capacity - they changed ammo sizes i think not a year ago! artillery has omfg alpha, and very long range, where tracking matters less, and besides youve got extra slots for tracking computers!! or enhancers... and stop this bulls@@t with cap use, just try to use lasers, when youre cup is going to last something around 1,5 minute just shooting youre guns, you matars have nothing to whine about!!!
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:19:00 - [50] Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Both ammos deal about 10% less damage in all sizes than the other high-damage ammos from lasers and hybrids. Is this a typo? I mean what good is being able to "choose" damage types if a pre-nerf prevents any actual effect? This thread is an embarrassment to Minmatar. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:31:00 - [51] Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Edited by: SpaceTrucker 3000 on 20/09/2007 17:07:21 Originally by: Kagura Nikon its factual evidence, and the only one that matters. If you are unable to see how good long range ammo is on arties, you really have a lot to learn on combat. Range is as important, or MORE important than damage, specially when paired to our speed advantage. That is why tempests and Typhoons toast BlastetThrons. I think I'll continue using Tremor with my sniping Muninn and Tempest. Thanks for the advice though. Next one in the anecdotal evidence queue please! yes, continue to use it while targeting inside Carb lead range, and having the same damage but 80% worse tracking. Continue to gimp yourself. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:35:00 - [52] Originally by: Keruli Quote: Autocannons and artillery are already the worst dps weapons, have the worst ammo capacity and consumption, and worst optimal. Artillery besides has the worst tracking. That's where the cap goes. no they aint the worst dps, that bonus is there to offset youre usuall lesser number of turret points on matari ships!! just check again youre ammo capacity - they changed ammo sizes i think not a year ago! artillery has omfg alpha, and very long range, where tracking matters less, and besides youve got extra slots for tracking computers!! or enhancers... and stop this bulls@@t with cap use, just try to use lasers, when youre cup is going to last something around 1,5 minute just shooting youre guns, you matars have nothing to whine about!!! Jesus another MINMATAR IS FINE troll who wandered out of his cage. This is getting dumber and dumber. There is a Boost Amarr thread that just opened, go check it out All your points have already been rebutted many, many times not just in here, but everything you wrote is wrong, except the ammo thing. Yes, they increased the ammo capacity and but they still consume the most. Now get out.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:35:00 - [53] Edited by: madaluap on 20/09/2007 17:35:53 Originally by: Keruli you matars have nothing to whine about!!! THIS THIS THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT, WTF IS THE OP ON ABOUT! You take the ammo compare with other races and whine. I mean you must agree, thats pretty dumb isnt it. Not taking the ships you use it on in account, not take the weapons you use it with into account. Flame anyone who actually used the race and think they are fine. Than quote other people that they dont know **** cause they dont fly the race. Its a joke! Tempest has 6 guns and dual damagebonus. Mega has 7 guns and 1 damagebonus. You get 33% rof bonus on top, with guns that can deal multiple damagetypes. What is there to whine? I fly minmatar, i fly gallente, they are fine. PERIOD. Now lets focus on making amarr and caldari a bit more worthwhile. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Bellum Eternus Gallente Blood Corsair's The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:40:00 - [54] The answer is simple why they do less damage: it's projectile ammo. Projectiles have a much higher ROF than hybrids (which is what is being compared here), and no cap use. Everything is working as intended. Please think of something else to troll about. How about comparing the loss of DPS while switching damage types juxtaposed to missiles, which don't lose any DPS at all if they switch damage types? Nerf Caldari. Bellum Eternus [Vid]Blood Corsairs - Day One
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:40:00 - [55] Originally by: Kagura Nikon yes, continue to use it while targeting inside Carb lead range, and having the same damage but 80% worse tracking. Continue to gimp yourself. Do you realise you are making a fool of youself? Tremor does the same damage as depleted uranium and has a 20% range bonus over Carb so if I'm inside your range it doesn't mean ****. Even with the tracking penalty I'll be far away enough that I'm going to hit you for more damage. How stupid do you have to be do use carb instead of tremor for sniping? This is the problem with the forums, clueless people barking around whatever they think. Another troll beaten with facts, next please.
SpaceTrucker 3000	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:42:00 - [56] Originally by: Bellum Eternus The answer is simple why they do less damage: it's projectile ammo. Projectiles have a much higher ROF than hybrids (which is what is being compared here), and no cap use. Everything is working as intended. Please think of something else to troll about. How about comparing the loss of DPS while switching damage types juxtaposed to missiles, which don't lose any DPS at all if they switch damage types? Nerf Caldari. Artillery has the slowest rof, champ. Btw Amarr don't have to waste time changing ammo either, nerf Amarr too?
Alt 363	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:46:00 - [57] I think what should be done is this: Fusion: 48 damage (its still minmatar primary damage types so it doesnt need to be reduced... and it should be the highest damage as, again, minnie damage types). EMP: 44 PP: 40 There. You still take a DPS hit for changing damage types, but you now have the option to do your primary damage types at maximum damage. It doesn't make projectiles any stronger at killing shields, but it does give them some good t1 hitting power on armor again. Why this is not the case currently is baffling. The only excuse anyone has for EMP only being 44 and yet at the top of the damage scale is its damage types. I vehemently disagree that EMP is even useful anymore in terms of its damage types (spread across 3 is NOT USEFUL), but we can throw this argument completely out of the window if Fusion was boosted to 48 and EMP and PP were kept the same.
Alt 363	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:47:00 - [58] Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Originally by: Kagura Nikon yes, continue to use it while targeting inside Carb lead range, and having the same damage but 80% worse tracking. Continue to gimp yourself. Do you realise you are making a fool of youself? Tremor does the same damage as depleted uranium and has a 20% range bonus over Carb so if I'm inside your range it doesn't mean ****. Even with the tracking penalty I'll be far away enough that I'm going to hit you for more damage. How stupid do you have to be do use carb instead of tremor for sniping? This is the problem with the forums, clueless people barking around whatever they think. Another troll beaten with facts, next please. Clueless idiot^. Faction carbonized lead is far more useful than tremor for many ships.
ArmyOfMe hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.09.20 18:50:00 - [59] Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Originally by: Kerdrak And how much cap saves this ammo? is not around 100%? I read more stupid whines everyday... Autocannons and artillery are already the worst dps weapons, have the worst ammo capacity and consumption, and worst optimal. Artillery besides has the worst tracking. That's where the cap goes. Are you even remotely trying to suggest that minmatar needs a boost? Minmatar is the best pvp race btw if you haven't noticed. can you please tell that to everyone who complains about gallante being overpowerd
Bellum Eternus Gallente Blood Corsair's The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.20 19:18:00 - [60] Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Originally by: Bellum Eternus The answer is simple why they do less damage: it's projectile ammo. Projectiles have a much higher ROF than hybrids (which is what is being compared here), and no cap use. Everything is working as intended. Please think of something else to troll about. How about comparing the loss of DPS while switching damage types juxtaposed to missiles, which don't lose any DPS at all if they switch damage types? Nerf Caldari. Artillery has the slowest rof, champ. Btw Amarr don't have to waste time changing ammo either, nerf Amarr too? Was speaking to ACs, not Arty. Arty has the highest damage mod and most volley damage of any weapon in game. Try again. Bellum Eternus [Vid]Blood Corsairs - Day One
Ath Amon	Posted - 2007.09.20 21:26:00 - [61] i don't see why so many people want fusion as best t1 ammo for minnies, we alredy have t2 ammos that cover the kin/explo damage, having fusion best1 will be too similar to these weapons... if i have to change anything i think i will work on emp damage... replace explo with therm or remove explo and boost em dmg so to have a reliable antishield ammo. atm minnie dmg to shield is a bit pathetic on any decent tanked ship and this is quite bad, expecially considering that damage type is generally considered a proj strong point. Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.09.20 21:39:00 - [62] It's fairly simple actually. Because projectile weapons have low optimal and high falloff (this is true for both ACs and Artillery) the range bonus/penalty of ammo end up having less effect. This means that a minmatar ship will not loose as much of its effective range by switching to short range ammo and at the same time it will not gain as much effective range by switching to long range ammo. To account of both these cases the short range ammo does slightly less damage while the long range ammo does slightly more damage. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Dahak2150 Chaos Monkeys Monkey Religion	Posted - 2007.09.20 22:14:00 - [63] Why does Radio still only do EM damage? ---------------- Originally by: "Cyberus" cause its has no sence anyway your brains is simply wont accept that anyway.
Tefkros The Dead Pod Society Antesignani Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.24 09:37:00 - [64] Edited by: Tefkros on 24/09/2007 09:43:39 Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Btw, if you use phased plasma against amarr you sure are quite loud mouthed when in reality you should keep quiet so the rest don't know how dumb you are. Hint: every t2 tanking amarr ship fits a thermal hardener (this one is for free). OMG my ammo sucks, I¦m an idiot for using the wrong ammo, boost my ammo and my brain! Just 4 MB (video starts after first volley has been shot) As for your Tremor vs. Carbonized Lead ¿argument¿, you obviously never shot at a stealth bomber from 60km in ¿your sniping Muninn¿ with Tremor and have it warp away at 10% structure because HALF of the shots MISSED! Unless of course you think your job as a Muninn pilot in a fleet is to shoot the battleships with...Tremor.
Aegis Celestis Gallente Hell's Horsemen	Posted - 2007.09.24 10:50:00 - [65] the fact that i have to be almost ON TOP of what im shooting to do decent damage (Read: Blasters) as opposed to projectiles having a much better falloff could possibly account for the small damage difference. and also, if im not mistaken, a ROF bonus actually gives a bigger boost to DPS than a pure damage bonus. (correct me if im wrong, im not too sure because none of gallente ships give ROF bonii) beyond the grave.
Ishtov Caldari Elite Ops Mafia	Posted - 2007.10.11 16:07:00 - [66] Quote: OMG my ammo sucks, I¦m an idiot for using the wrong ammo, boost my ammo and my brain! You finally admit you suck.... Hmm...
Atomic Atty Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.10.11 16:23:00 - [67] Edited by: Atomic Atty on 11/10/2007 16:24:14 Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Autocannons and artillery are already the worst dps weapons, have the worst ammo capacity and consumption, and worst optimal. Artillery besides has the worst tracking. That's where the cap goes. Artillery has the best alpha. AC and Artillery have obscene falloff. AC and Artillery don't eat your cap. Some Minmatar ships have a double dmg bonus ( dmg + rof ) You can switch through all dmg types. ... do I continue or ?
eXtas 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.10.11 16:48:00 - [68] Originally by: Atomic Atty Edited by: Atomic Atty on 11/10/2007 16:24:14 Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Autocannons and artillery are already the worst dps weapons, have the worst ammo capacity and consumption, and worst optimal. Artillery besides has the worst tracking. That's where the cap goes. Artillery has the best alpha. AC and Artillery have obscene falloff. AC and Artillery don't eat your cap. Some Minmatar ships have a double dmg bonus ( dmg + rof ) You can switch through all dmg types. ... do I continue or ? yes... abaddon does have best alpha, and alpha doesnt actualy do a lot after all hp buffs you are right that AC and arty have best falloffs, but if u fight in falloff u loose a lot of damage so atleast with arty u dont want to do that yes its grate without cap need, but artys still has crapiest dps, tracking and range of all longrange guns! ac's have grate tracking but not that hot dps the duble damage bonuses are needed because crapy damage from guns and low amount of turrets (tempest) last time I checked a sniping abaddon/geddon (600dps) did allmost 2x the damage from a tempest (350dps) with t2 sniper ammo loaded.. sure it em/therm insted of exp/kin but damage types is nice, but not that hot I dont think that the t1 ammos should be pre-nerfed, and why is barage in line with null then if am and emp cant be? -------- need new sig :(
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2007.10.11 17:06:00 - [69] It's very very simple to explain this. What do you get when you chose another ammo than the "standard ammo"? * Higher damage but range penalty * Lower damage but range bonus Now, the range penalty/bonus only apply to optimal, not to falloff. Projectiles have much longer falloff, and shorter optimal, than the others. Result: Projectiles are not affected as much by the range penalty/bonus. Balancing: Projectiles get less variation in damage. examples: A dual400 autocannon is basicly doesn't get a penalty by switching to highdamage ammo (like blasters and lasers), it can still hit at almost the same range. So the ammo is given lower damage. A 1400mm arty does not get the same range boost that a 425mm or tach get when switching to long range ammo. So it's given higher damage than hybrid/lasers. Now, since the (long ago) change to T2 ammo, they have different penalties that apply so projectile ammo is given the same damage. Perfectly clear and balanced. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.10.11 17:10:00 - [70] Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Originally by: Bellum Eternus The answer is simple why they do less damage: it's projectile ammo. Projectiles have a much higher ROF than hybrids (which is what is being compared here), and no cap use. Everything is working as intended. Please think of something else to troll about. How about comparing the loss of DPS while switching damage types juxtaposed to missiles, which don't lose any DPS at all if they switch damage types? Nerf Caldari. Artillery has the slowest rof, champ. Btw Amarr don't have to waste time changing ammo either, nerf Amarr too? Lol you can't even get your quips right, the Amarr have to change their ammo based on range too, infact more so than most races as each ammo type have very specific range bands. --------------------------------- Core 2 Duo E4300 1.8ghz @ 3ghz, 2GB Gskill DDR2 5400 @ 800mhh 4-4-4-12, Abit fatality mATX F-I90HD @ 334mhz, 8800GTS 320mb 2x250GB 7200.10s Raid 0, Vista 64 Home.
eXtas 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.10.11 17:17:00 - [71] Originally by: Arana Tellen Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Originally by: Bellum Eternus The answer is simple why they do less damage: it's projectile ammo. Projectiles have a much higher ROF than hybrids (which is what is being compared here), and no cap use. Everything is working as intended. Please think of something else to troll about. How about comparing the loss of DPS while switching damage types juxtaposed to missiles, which don't lose any DPS at all if they switch damage types? Nerf Caldari. Artillery has the slowest rof, champ. Btw Amarr don't have to waste time changing ammo either, nerf Amarr too? Lol you can't even get your quips right, the Amarr have to change their ammo based on range too, infact more so than most races as each ammo type have very specific range bands. but it doesnt take 10s for amarr ships to change ammo -------- need new sig :(
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.11 19:03:00 - [72] Originally by: eXtas bunch of crap. Both the tempest and Maelstrom have better alpha than the Abaddon. Losing some damage is more favourable than losing all damage. Arties have better range than beams. The double damage bonus only needed because of a lower number of turrets. This lower number of turrets allows more versitility and easier fitting[case in point, Hurricane, Tempest, Rupture] Last time i checked a fully skilled sniping abaddon did 490 dps, fires for 1/80th the time the maelstrom/tempest does, has a worse sniping damage type[since if any ship fits a tank it will be a damage control and then a single 1600rt], requires more skills to fit and makes more compromises to do so. Quote: I dont think that the t1 ammos should be pre-nerfed, and why is barage in line with null then if am and emp cant be? Because you are too stupid to figure out how much damage the ammos actually do against armor and shield.
eXtas 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.10.11 21:10:00 - [73] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: eXtas bunch of crap. Both the tempest and Maelstrom have better alpha than the Abaddon. Losing some damage is more favourable than losing all damage. Arties have better range than beams. The double damage bonus only needed because of a lower number of turrets. This lower number of turrets allows more versitility and easier fitting[case in point, Hurricane, Tempest, Rupture] Last time i checked a fully skilled sniping abaddon did 490 dps, fires for 1/80th the time the maelstrom/tempest does, has a worse sniping damage type[since if any ship fits a tank it will be a damage control and then a single 1600rt], requires more skills to fit and makes more compromises to do so. Quote: I dont think that the t1 ammos should be pre-nerfed, and why is barage in line with null then if am and emp cant be? Because you are too stupid to figure out how much damage the ammos actually do against armor and shield. plz ******, why wouldnt I be able to figure out how mutch damage ammos do against armor and shield? I was just thinking it was strange t2 ammos wasnt nerfed like t1. and damage types dont mather that mutch when everyone else then npc'ers uses tanks with even resists -------- need new sig :(
Amy Wang	Posted - 2007.10.11 21:14:00 - [74] Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000 Originally by: Kerdrak And how much cap saves this ammo? is not around 100%? I read more stupid whines everyday... Autocannons and artillery are already the worst dps weapons, have the worst ammo capacity and consumption, and worst optimal. Artillery besides has the worst tracking. That's where the cap goes. Are you even remotely trying to suggest that minmatar needs a boost? Minmatar is the best pvp race btw if you haven't noticed. Only if all the Gallente flying pilots are on holidays
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.11 21:38:00 - [75] Originally by: eXtas plz re-tard, why wouldnt I be able to figure out how mutch damage ammos do against armor and shield? I was just thinking it was strange t2 ammos wasnt nerfed like t1. and damage types dont mather that mutch when everyone else then npc'ers uses tanks with even resists. doh didnt check abaddons damage, looks like its about 500 yes so only 2/3 more then a tempest.. and tachyons have a lot beter range then artys Try 1/3 more. Also, Tachyons dont really have much better range than arties due to fitting issues, and beams in general do not.

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