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ITTigerClawIK Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:09:00 - [1] Its been disscused many times by verius people so i thought id bring the most commonly suggested ideas into one thread and see witch "Boost" is more populer if i have missed some then please let me know and i shall add. 1.Reduction in Cap useage for all lassers thus takeing away the need for a cap bonus on every single Amarr ship and givieng a damage bonus in insted or armour bonus 2.Damage swap so that lassers do more Thermal Damage with Lassers than EM thus still doing a large amount of damage to shields but also a rather large amount of damage to shields, of course there is also the fact that this will conflict with the fact that Gallente are the race that is ment to be specialiseing with Thermal damage. 3.Overall Damage boost to lasers overcomeing some of the naturally high EM and therm resists to be on mostly on par with the damage output of other weapon types, 4.Reduction on base EM and thermal resistance's on most ships but mostly base EM Please disscus your thoughts and opinions on the ideas and post your own bellow and please try to keep to constructive and insightfull content not just one liners PS: i have not mentiond crysts that do kenetic dmg for one very good reason, LASERS DONT EXPLODE its an energy based weapon please remember that and CCP have made it clear already that it will not make such charges for lasers Sig space reclaimed in the name of me -courtesy of Tiggy ([email protected])
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:14:00 - [2] Lasers need to be boosted in damage slightly across the board. Beams need to be easier to fit and use slightly less cap. Zealot needs another turret + some cpu.
Jordan Musgrat Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:22:00 - [3] Beyond shortcomings of individual ships, the Amarr race is fine. SP ftw? Also just because your char sheet doesn't say Gallente on it doesn't mean your race needs a boost. EM damage is fine, though I could see adding no more than 5% damage to base EM damage on turrets. IMO, Zealot is fine. No reason to make a ship uber in range and dps just because it says HAC. Apoc is useless...... ----------- Primary is family values, secondary is 0.0...
Markus Aurelian	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:36:00 - [4] Originally by: Jordan Musgrat Beyond shortcomings of individual ships, the Amarr race is fine. SP ftw? Also just because your char sheet doesn't say Gallente on it doesn't mean your race needs a boost. EM damage is fine, though I could see adding no more than 5% damage to base EM damage on turrets. IMO, Zealot is fine. No reason to make a ship uber in range and dps just because it says HAC. Apoc is useless...... zealot isnt fine. it is a "gank" hac, and yet it is one of the lowest damage hac's out there. with a reasonable fit, it will still be nearly outdamaged by a sacrilege. its still useful in some situations, but needs a boost to be on par with the other HAC's. as for the rest. /signed. lasers should do far more damage than they currently do in order to be justified in using so much capacitor. a 50% reduction in cap use coupled with a real second bonus for most amarr ships would nearly make up for the lack of midslots on most of them. beam fitting is atrocious, fitting 8 tachyons on a ship such as the abaddon should not be nearly as hard as it is, seeing as other races can fit their largest guns in many cases without any fitting modules at all (maelstrom?, sniperthron?). Meatwad FTW
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:45:00 - [5] Edited by: Arana Tellen on 20/09/2007 17:45:16 Originally by: ITTigerClawIK Its been disscused many times by verius people so i thought id bring the most commonly suggested ideas into one thread and see witch "Boost" is more populer if i have missed some then please let me know and i shall add. 1.Reduction in Cap useage for all lassers thus takeing away the need for a cap bonus on every single Amarr ship and givieng a damage bonus in insted or armour bonus 2.Damage swap so that lassers do more Thermal Damage with Lassers than EM thus still doing a large amount of damage to shields but also a rather large amount of damage to shields, of course there is also the fact that this will conflict with the fact that Gallente are the race that is ment to be specialiseing with Thermal damage. 3.Overall Damage boost to lasers overcomeing some of the naturally high EM and therm resists to be on mostly on par with the damage output of other weapon types, 4.Reduction on base EM and thermal resistance's on most ships but mostly base EM Please disscus your thoughts and opinions on the ideas and post your own bellow and please try to keep to constructive and insightfull content not just one liners PS: i have not mentiond crysts that do kenetic dmg for one very good reason, LASERS DONT EXPLODE its an energy based weapon please remember that and CCP have made it clear already that it will not make such charges for lasers 1. 25% more damage would make amarr overpowered especially if you remove cap issues aswell. 2. Yes it would SEIOUSLY nerf gallente (read: any non drone ship useless), caldari would be indestructable. 3. Lasers a need a boost but not by a huge amount. 4. Nerf armor tanks? No thanks. Yet again would totally ruin gallente ships. Certain amarr ships need to be looked at (zealot + apoc) certainly and I think there should be a SMALL boost to laser damage + make it easier to fit lasers (the main problem). However I do think some people use the worst ships and apply the problem across the whole race. --------------------------------- Core 2 Duo E4300 1.8ghz @ 3ghz, 2GB Gskill DDR2 5400 @ 800mhh 4-4-4-12, Abit fatality mATX F-I90HD @ 334mhz, 8800GTS 320mb 2x250GB 7200.10s Raid 0, Vista 64 Home.
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:47:00 - [6] I support the whole reduce cap need and give amarr some flavour. It's great being Amarr isn't it.
ITTigerClawIK Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.20 18:05:00 - [7] Originally by: Arana Tellen Edited by: Arana Tellen on 20/09/2007 17:45:16 1. 25% more damage would make amarr overpowered especially if you remove cap issues aswell. 2. Yes it would SEIOUSLY nerf gallente (read: any non drone ship useless), caldari would be indestructable. 3. Lasers a need a boost but not by a huge amount. 4. Nerf armor tanks? No thanks. Yet again would totally ruin gallente ships. Certain amarr ships need to be looked at (zealot + apoc) certainly and I think there should be a SMALL boost to laser damage + make it easier to fit lasers (the main problem). However I do think some people use the worst ships and apply the problem across the whole race. i honestly dont see how swaping the primary damage type of lasers would nerf Galente since we are not even touching galente and galente probably the best PvP race out there Sig space reclaimed in the name of me -courtesy of Tiggy ([email protected])
Hyakuchan Earth Federation Space Force	Posted - 2007.09.20 18:12:00 - [8] Edited by: Hyakuchan on 20/09/2007 18:15:58 Originally by: Dristra give amarr some flavour. You mean the Great Golden Phalic Fleet isn't flavor enough in of itself? How can Amarrian pilots take them seriously when even Freud would take one look at their ships and say "They have issues." -------------------------------------------------- FRIGATS Coalition FREGE-Red-IAC-Goon-AAA-Tau-Southerncross "We gonna beat you with frigats."
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.09.20 18:30:00 - [9] Edited by: Xequecal on 20/09/2007 18:31:52 Serious buffs to Amarr would make Caldari obsolete. What needs to happen is a serious Gallente nerf, Amarr/Caldari/Minmatar are fairly well balanced against each other as it is. The whole laser damage issue would not be a problem if each race composed approximately 25% of all ships. Right now it's like 50%+ Gallente because of how overpowered their ships are in general.
Koryvarn Amarr Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2007.09.20 18:36:00 - [10] I'd be happy if they just halved the cap use on lasers, made all lasers use 10% less grid / cpu and kept all the ship bonuses as is. Would mean you could fit a full rack of T2 guns and still have spare grid / cpu, rather than the sitiuation were in now, where T2 fitting any T1 ship is nearly impossible.
Kamen SRBI Circle 0f Two	Posted - 2007.09.20 18:56:00 - [11] How about another idea -- a useful highslot module that amarr can put in those extra slots? ------------------------------------------------ (Recruiting ad) SRBI regrutuju! Dodjite na nas javni SRBI kanal.
Wayward Hooligan Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.09.20 18:59:00 - [12] On t1 ships shields have a total of 120 resist points. Armor has a total of 140 resist points. The difference is most likely to make up for shields having a natural regen. 1 - Remove 10% EM resist from armor across the board on all t1 ships and therefore their t2 versions as well. That directly boosts laser users but has NO effect on anyone else. It us a pure laser boost. 2 - Reduce cap usage of lasers such that they are still the highest cap using weapon per shot for like weapons but not using DOUBLE the cap. Neutron Blaster Cannon -vs- Mega Pulse -> Mega Pulse should use 25% - 50% more cap per shot. Currently its 18.2 -vs- 40 425mm Railgun -vs- Mega Beam -> Mega Beam should use 25% to 50% more cap per shot. Currently its 30 -vs- 65 This would keep lasers as the cap heavy turret system but it would make it less ridiculous. 3 - Remove cap use bonus from all ships with it and generally sort the ship bonus into better lines of ships. ex: Omen -> Proph -> Geddon => ROF bonus, Range bonus(pulled from Zealot) Maller -> Harb -> Abaddon => Damage bonus, Armor resist bonus
Cudeiro Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.09.20 19:01:00 - [13] And PLZ, change the Crapocalypse. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Jordan Musgrat Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.09.20 19:24:00 - [14] Originally by: Markus Aurelian Originally by: Jordan Musgrat Beyond shortcomings of individual ships, the Amarr race is fine. SP ftw? Also just because your char sheet doesn't say Gallente on it doesn't mean your race needs a boost. EM damage is fine, though I could see adding no more than 5% damage to base EM damage on turrets. IMO, Zealot is fine. No reason to make a ship uber in range and dps just because it says HAC. Apoc is useless...... zealot isnt fine. it is a "gank" hac, and yet it is one of the lowest damage hac's out there. with a reasonable fit, it will still be nearly outdamaged by a sacrilege. its still useful in some situations, but needs a boost to be on par with the other HAC's. as for the rest. /signed. lasers should do far more damage than they currently do in order to be justified in using so much capacitor. a 50% reduction in cap use coupled with a real second bonus for most amarr ships would nearly make up for the lack of midslots on most of them. beam fitting is atrocious, fitting 8 tachyons on a ship such as the abaddon should not be nearly as hard as it is, seeing as other races can fit their largest guns in many cases without any fitting modules at all (maelstrom?, sniperthron?). You call it a gank hac then complain about it, but as far as I can see, it has plenty of lows for damage mods, and a decent tank to boot. It also has a 10% range bonus. Maybe you take that to mean you should fit pulse and orbit at 5k, then wonder why others outdamage you. But if you will play to its bonuses, you will find it can either fit a badass tank and pulse away close range, or STILL fit pulses, some tracking comps, and do 365 dps at over 40k optimal with Scorch. With Conflag you're doing 465 dps... not a small number. I know that in this day of Gallente Online (^tm haha) nobody ever considers a ship that can lay out that kind of dps at that range to be good, but hey. Also try fitting beams and you'll discover you can warp in at 100 and still be a very good asset. BTW, with a 4 slot tank you come out with 78% thermal and 88% explosive resists, not bad for an armor tanker... =/ ----------- Primary is family values, secondary is 0.0...
Markus Aurelian	Posted - 2007.09.20 19:27:00 - [15] Originally by: Jordan Musgrat Originally by: Markus Aurelian Originally by: Jordan Musgrat Beyond shortcomings of individual ships, the Amarr race is fine. SP ftw? Also just because your char sheet doesn't say Gallente on it doesn't mean your race needs a boost. EM damage is fine, though I could see adding no more than 5% damage to base EM damage on turrets. IMO, Zealot is fine. No reason to make a ship uber in range and dps just because it says HAC. Apoc is useless...... zealot isnt fine. it is a "gank" hac, and yet it is one of the lowest damage hac's out there. with a reasonable fit, it will still be nearly outdamaged by a sacrilege. its still useful in some situations, but needs a boost to be on par with the other HAC's. as for the rest. /signed. lasers should do far more damage than they currently do in order to be justified in using so much capacitor. a 50% reduction in cap use coupled with a real second bonus for most amarr ships would nearly make up for the lack of midslots on most of them. beam fitting is atrocious, fitting 8 tachyons on a ship such as the abaddon should not be nearly as hard as it is, seeing as other races can fit their largest guns in many cases without any fitting modules at all (maelstrom?, sniperthron?). You call it a gank hac then complain about it, but as far as I can see, it has plenty of lows for damage mods, and a decent tank to boot. It also has a 10% range bonus. Maybe you take that to mean you should fit pulse and orbit at 5k, then wonder why others outdamage you. But if you will play to its bonuses, you will find it can either fit a badass tank and pulse away close range, or STILL fit pulses, some tracking comps, and do 365 dps at over 40k optimal with Scorch. With Conflag you're doing 465 dps... not a small number. I know that in this day of Gallente Online (^tm haha) nobody ever considers a ship that can lay out that kind of dps at that range to be good, but hey. Also try fitting beams and you'll discover you can warp in at 100 and still be a very good asset. BTW, with a 4 slot tank you come out with 78% thermal and 88% explosive resists, not bad for an armor tanker... =/ i called it a gank HAC because its bonuses suggest it to be one. laser oriented damage bonuses with no resist or active tank bonuses suggest to me it should be gank fitted. its damage isnt that impressive considering all this (note the numerous threads showing math im too lazy to do pointing to the zealot with a 5th turret or a dronebay being much more comparable to in-class ships) Meatwad FTW
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try	Posted - 2007.09.20 19:49:00 - [16] I have not read any of the replies, so sorry if its already mentioned. The only boost I want for Amarr, is to have the cap usage of laser reduced by about 10-15%. That should give us enoug cap for a better fitting or tank. As is stands now, we can either run our guns or our tank. And thats with all spare slots fitted with cap modules. I don't want us to run both tank and gank, but atleast a few cycles of the armor repper would be nice
Aferah	Posted - 2007.09.20 20:23:00 - [17] hi my few thoughts. im amarrs specialized pilot 22m sp ( only other than amarr ive gallente frigate lvl1) so i fly only and only amarr and thats what i think: laser should take lot of energy as well as blasters, but bonus to less cap useage isnt real bonus, so my opnio is every amarr ship which is able to fit lasers ( with other laser bonuses only) should have way bigger cap or way faster rechrge time about 50 or 25% in second case, and i think as bonus amarrs should get something like tracking bonus a 5 or 7.5% then lasers would be real and competitive to other weapons, also ships bonuses as cap useage reduction chnged to other bonus would put amarr in better light, that would be main amarrian problem fixed other beams, to much power grid used by larges, small r ok, medium got fixed but large, u will say ammar have biggest pg sure but with very good skills u still need 2x reactor control unit to fit sniper ship, any other race needs it ? amarr damage sux yes its only em and thermal yes but how laser can make any other damage ? its laser so it gotta stay but blasters have insane damage, projectiles amazing falloff, rockets use no cap and u can choose any damage so i say give very good tracking to lasers so they will do more good hits that would equal them with rest, ive very good skill 6 mils in gunnery only lasers and many times my laser in optimal range missing target which is not moving and its even bigger than im so what is its ? so ,y points again: to fix amarr give real bonuses to ships instad of cap useage bonus - replace with cap recharge or cap size ( to make it even and could stay on same lvl) to fix lasers boost tracking and again if u dont fly amarr ( forget iof u have fig at lvl 3 and u think u do) just shut u pie hole, cause u have not much to say next time we can discuss fraction ships and bonusses - compare even on papier tnx
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2007.09.20 21:02:00 - [18] Originally by: Jordan Musgrat 365 dps at over 40k optimal with Scorch. With Conflag you're doing 465 dps... not a small number. Now compare that to the Sacrilege, Ishtar, Deimos, and Vaga. Btw, there's no room for tracking comps, so optimal is more realistically 30k. And who uses Conflag? I don't. The tracking gimp sucks. Amarr Navy Multifreq maybe, but rarely is close range ammo practical for the Zealot unless you're rushing in for a quick tech1 cruiser gank. Lets take a look at the Zealot's description, shall we? "As a vanguard vessel, its thick armor and dazzling destructive power make it capable of cutting through enemy fleets with striking ease." Lol, riiiiiiiiiiiight. I'm real "dazzled" with the Zealot's "destructive firepower" (365dps) and it's "thick armor" - which is gimped by having to fit 3 dmg mods to achieve that "dazzling" 365dps. Don't get me wrong, it's a good ship. But compared to other HACs it just falls short. And you can't just consider DPS here... it's got no extra mids or drone bay which could be used for EW. As a purely "gank ship", it needs to gank a little better.
Siakel	Posted - 2007.09.20 21:15:00 - [19] Originally by: Jordan Musgrat You call it a gank hac then complain about it, but as far as I can see, it has plenty of lows for damage mods, and a decent tank to boot. It also has a 10% range bonus. Maybe you take that to mean you should fit pulse and orbit at 5k, then wonder why others outdamage you. But if you will play to its bonuses, you will find it can either fit a badass tank and pulse away close range, or STILL fit pulses, some tracking comps, and do 365 dps at over 40k optimal with Scorch. With Conflag you're doing 465 dps... not a small number. I know that in this day of Gallente Online (^tm haha) nobody ever considers a ship that can lay out that kind of dps at that range to be good, but hey. Also try fitting beams and you'll discover you can warp in at 100 and still be a very good asset. BTW, with a 4 slot tank you come out with 78% thermal and 88% explosive resists, not bad for an armor tanker... =/ Yes, when the ship that 465 DPS is coming from is taken into account, it is a small number. It's small compared to the DPS of other HACs, and the Zealot is riddled with weaknesses of it's own. It has no drone bay, it has a hard time fighting smaller ships, it has a very weak tank, it has terrible CPU constraints, it has bad cap issues, and it's extremely weak to every single type of EW in EVE. With all of those negatives, it's supposed to have two positive points to counter that; speed, and damage. It has the speed, but the damage isn't anywhere to be found. Added to this, a Zealot will never realistically do 465 DPS unless it's shooting something that can't threaten it. To do this it would have to go into webrange, which with it's weak tank and unimpressive damage means it dies. Conflag is also making it's cap issues even worse, with a 25% increased cap use, and it's already subpar tracking is halved. If a Zealot ever goes in to 10km range, it should be using Amarr Navy Multi. The Zealot's damage simply does not make up for the amount of problems facing it. Having all these weaknesses piled up on a gank ship, and then having it's 'gank' be the second lowest of any HAC... it's just wrong.
Mr Smoketoomuch	Posted - 2007.09.20 21:24:00 - [20] Okay, this is sort of a backwards way of boosting laser damge and may fail misserbly at it, but I think it's an interesting idea: Move the passive shield resists mods to the low slots. This could increase the number of PvP fitted ships that shield tank. If this increase comes at the expense of armor tanked alternatives, lasers get an overall boost to their damage. If, instead, it just decreases the number of ships with no tank, it just made the situation worse. There is also a possibility that it would make some shield tanks overpowered, though not passive shield tanks, as these would have to replace an SPR or PDU. This would be a fairly big change to tanking and there would be no way of testing if it would help lasers. Sure, you could test the balance on shield tanks, but then you would just have to hope it makes people fly more shield tanked ships and less armor tanked.
Karyuudo Tydraad Caldari Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services	Posted - 2007.09.20 21:38:00 - [21] I have a nutty idea. Replace every cap bonus...with an RoF/Damage bonus. You'd gank like mad, but cap out in seconds with many ships (The apoc would be able to sustain them a while longer). Lasers become the ultimate gank weapons, but are completely unsustainable. And it'd discourage using Autocannonas (seriously, when fitting another race's weapons improves performance, something is wrong).
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.09.20 22:05:00 - [22] Originally by: Kruel Originally by: Jordan Musgrat 365 dps at over 40k optimal with Scorch. With Conflag you're doing 465 dps... not a small number. Now compare that to the Sacrilege, Ishtar, Deimos, and Vaga. Btw, there's no room for tracking comps, so optimal is more realistically 30k. And who uses Conflag? I don't. The tracking gimp sucks. Amarr Navy Multifreq maybe, but rarely is close range ammo practical for the Zealot unless you're rushing in for a quick tech1 cruiser gank. Lets take a look at the Zealot's description, shall we? "As a vanguard vessel, its thick armor and dazzling destructive power make it capable of cutting through enemy fleets with striking ease." Lol, riiiiiiiiiiiight. I'm real "dazzled" with the Zealot's "destructive firepower" (365dps) and it's "thick armor" - which is gimped by having to fit 3 dmg mods to achieve that "dazzling" 365dps. Don't get me wrong, it's a good ship. But compared to other HACs it just falls short. And you can't just consider DPS here... it's got no extra mids or drone bay which could be used for EW. As a purely "gank ship", it needs to gank a little better. Dude...I dont mind you trying to get the zealot boosted @ all. But dont quote stuff from descriptions...I was 2 weeks into the game when i found that "the largest weapon you can ever fit on a frig" did less damage than the 150mm railgun on my incursus. "the largest weapon" is a 280mm howi btw. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
TigerWoman	Posted - 2007.09.20 23:02:00 - [23] Edited by: TigerWoman on 20/09/2007 23:05:42 i am wondering about somethings here and since i am quite new to eve i will keep my suggestions behind. but i got one question: lots of threads tell that amarr can only gang or tank, i found out that a geddon which is buffed up with plates and trimarks can gank quite well and that a 2 repairer setup can be a good option for the abaddon. but for ships like prophecy apoc and maller: they cannot gank they cannot e-war they cannot launch hordes of drones, so why would anyone shot these ships at all? they do pitifull dmg and are therefore not much a thread to you force. so you can just kill them in the end when all mayor threads are disabled. maybee a remoterepping apoc with acs or artys could be an option, but i dont know rly. i think when it comes to a battle you go for the dangerous targets first which can be killed quite fast. so gank/ewar/logistic boats will be your first choice and the ships which tank like hell will be last on the list.would a fc waste his power on a tankship when he could get his forces to kill a ecm and a gankboat within the same time? and about the amarr boost in generall i cannot say that much since i dont know the problems of other races in game ( only in theory though ), but i am somehow surprised that the announced buff to amarr ( it was stated that they can start working on amarr once they know how they handle nos ) didnt arrive yet. it might be a little more complicated then we think. and i prefer a good solution/change above a overpowerig with a nerfage later. i am a little like the gms - the react when you put "beer" in your petition, i react when you put "amarr" in your post ;) regards tw edit: epic fail in typing ;)
Jordan Musgrat Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.09.20 23:41:00 - [24] Edited by: Jordan Musgrat on 20/09/2007 23:41:59 I see what you are saying. Yes the Zealot does lower dps than... deimos... sac... cerb (I think, maybe not), munnin, but do you really need an uber hac like that? Just because it can't solo a BS doesn't mean it needs a buff. It will still take down any BC, and some hacs when fitted well, with a good pilot. You can't expect any hac with a range bonus to outdamage the true gank hacs. We see this very well with the eagle and cerb. Even with short range weapons (hams/blasters) the Eagle and Cerb are outdamaged and outtanked by the short range setups- sac, ishtar, deimos, vaga (maybe don't know numbers on vaga). Zealot has range and 2 damage bonuses, and is the highest damaging HAC that hits past 100k. Yes maybe the Sac now outdamages it, but maybe the designers know about this?????? It would be safe to assume that they see the Sac as the high dps Amarr hac, and the Zealot as a sniper, no matter what the description says. ----------- Primary is family values, secondary is 0.0...
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.09.20 23:51:00 - [25] Originally by: Jordan Musgrat It will still take down any BC, Eh? Zealot is ** easy to kill in a BC (unless you are made of fail as a BC pilot). Originally by:** Jordan Musgrat Zealot has range and 2 damage bonuses, and is the highest damaging HAC that hits past 100k. Yes maybe the Sac now outdamages it, but maybe the designers know about this?????? It would be safe to assume that they see the Sac as the high dps Amarr hac, and the Zealot as a sniper, no matter what the description says. It is patheticaly weak as a sniper. While the Eagle may do ** DPS, at least it can actually do ** DPS at proper sniper ranges. Zealot can't. Top that off with what has been established wrt it's actual gank potential, and you have one pretty weak ship. Either give it a 5th turret, or at the very least, a drone bay.
Markus Aurelian	Posted - 2007.09.21 00:10:00 - [26] Originally by: Jordan Musgrat Edited by: Jordan Musgrat on 20/09/2007 23:41:59 I see what you are saying. Yes the Zealot does lower dps than... deimos... sac... cerb (I think, maybe not), munnin, but do you really need an uber hac like that? Just because it can't solo a BS doesn't mean it needs a buff. It will still take down any BC, and some hacs when fitted well, with a good pilot. You can't expect any hac with a range bonus to outdamage the true gank hacs. We see this very well with the eagle and cerb. Even with short range weapons (hams/blasters) the Eagle and Cerb are outdamaged and outtanked by the short range setups- sac, ishtar, deimos, vaga (maybe don't know numbers on vaga). Zealot has range and 2 damage bonuses, and is the highest damaging HAC that hits past 100k. Yes maybe the Sac now outdamages it, but maybe the designers know about this?????? It would be safe to assume that they see the Sac as the high dps Amarr hac, and the Zealot as a sniper, no matter what the description says. you understand that the zealot does lower dps but fail to see the greater point. its bonuses, fitting and slot layout suggest it to be a gank ship (much like the deimos), and yet it lacks in that department. its much like looking under the hood of a ferrari and finding 2 hamster wheels, then arguing that it works because the car will be very economical. Meatwad FTW
Terazuk Amarr Rogen's Heroes Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.21 01:11:00 - [27] Edited by: Terazuk on 21/09/2007 01:14:26 I have to say the recent changes or 'Nerf' to Nosferatu + derivations at first had me holding my head in my hands in horror but (with some reservations) this seems to have been the single biggest boost for Amarr to date. No longer are ppl fielding 2-3 Nos' in a pvp setup. Neuts are generally an undesirable item to fit, because like as not your opponent generally wishes to keep his cap as much as you do. Where before a single Nosferatu was enough to destabilize the cap of an Amarr ship, to the point of it being unable to compete seriously, is no longer such a critical issue. Amarr ships are perhaps now something to take seriously. Personally I'm not a real fan of this nerf/boost culture that has seems to have become popular of late. Despite my tentative approval of the aforementioned. I feel, as no doubt many others do, that the whiners and attention seekers are generally spoiling play for everyone else. It seems every day/week/month there is a new thread of tears demanding that this or that be nerfed or boosted. This then draws a following of other tearful killjoys and bandwagon jumpers and CCP in good faith see it done. The sad fact is that many of these whiners are indeed correct in saying; 'This is too weak' or 'That is too powerful'. But simply adjusting the existing mechanics will expose or cause yet more irregularities which others will simply pick up and wave about until again, the nerf-bat is wielded in the righteous crusade against the other guy. That other guy is you, yesterday today or next month. I am at least partially convinced that if this continues, that game-play will become increasingly static and eventually stultify as a result of these continuing degradations of game elements. Where I personally believe that the game is already too static in some regards and needs to open out to encompass 'space' as an environment more fully. I don't leave this all at the feet of CCP, although at times I have been known to mutter dark imprecations in their general direction. Generally though, after some thought I have to admit that they have made the best of a rum business all round. So when push comes to shove CCP are not the ones at fault, it is the EVE 'community' that has a lot to answer for... ask yourself, do you wish to play this game or kill it? Originally by: "Johho Bulon" ...for god sake please inspire us instead of the seemingly constant downgrading of anything that works.
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2007.09.21 01:19:00 - [28] Originally by: madaluap Dude...I dont mind you trying to get the zealot boosted @ all. But dont quote stuff from descriptions...I was 2 weeks into the game when i found that "the largest weapon you can ever fit on a frig" did less damage than the 150mm railgun on my incursus. "the largest weapon" is a 280mm howi btw. Lol... I know descriptions aren't much to go by, but I felt it clarified my point that Zealot should be a gank ship. CCP might as well change the description to "dazzling the enemy with it's shiny hull and flashy lasers".
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.09.21 01:52:00 - [29] Edited by: Deschenus Maximus on 21/09/2007 01:52:46 Originally by: Kruel Originally by: madaluap Dude...I dont mind you trying to get the zealot boosted @ all. But dont quote stuff from descriptions...I was 2 weeks into the game when i found that "the largest weapon you can ever fit on a frig" did less damage than the 150mm railgun on my incursus. "the largest weapon" is a 280mm howi btw. Lol... I know descriptions aren't much to go by, but I felt it clarified my point that Zealot should be a gank ship. CCP might as well change the description to "dazzling the enemy with it's shiny hull and flashy lasers". "Zealot pilots will often use Microwave lenses to pop the corn of their assaillants, adding a new depth to the lightshow."
Kazuma Saruwatari	Posted - 2007.09.21 02:08:00 - [30] Beam laser PG requirement reduced so as not to force Amarr to sacrifice their lowslots by fitting two* fitting mods. One should be enough, not two. Laser EM damage output increased by 5% Laser cap use decreased by 5% Amarr capacitor capacity across all ships increased by 20% Remove "laser cap bonus" on ships and replace with either damage bonii, or armor bonii, giving Amarr a difference in their ship layout, whilst keeping their "Gank/Tank only" mentality. *Zealot has 5 turret slots, 25m3 drone bay. It should gank, not throw pebbles. - Odd Pod Out, a blog of EVE Online
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.21 02:27:00 - [31] Edited by: Goumindong on 21/09/2007 02:27:51 Or you could just balance the ships http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=568374
Mr Li Suicidal Mercenaries	Posted - 2007.09.21 02:43:00 - [32] EM needs to become a worthwhile damage type. Theoretically, a Zealot can do 465 raw DPS. But, with standard armor omni tanks EM resists are extraordinarily high. EM damage takes a massive hit and that 465 raw DPS is much, much lower. the same is true for projectiles against shields, but there is one major difference: some projectile ammo does more EM than EXP damage. This has been stated before, and i'll reiterate it because the point sticks: Minmatar can do more EM damage than EXP and Gallente have the option to do more kinetic than thermal (anitmatter) with their blasters. lasers are the only turret which this switch in damage types does not occur. I'm not saying that crystals should do more thermal than EM damage, but the value of therm damage doesn't have to be so small compared to therm and sometimes, it wouldn't break backstory for a crystal or two to do more thermal than EM.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2007.09.21 03:46:00 - [33] only thing i will change for lasers atm is the cap usage but for beam weapons only and not by much... 10-15% fitting is not that good but for minnies for example is bit worse (arties and beam have very similar fitting requirements with minnies that have less pg) crystal with higher therm was an ok proposal before new t2 ships... using missiles actually imo resolved the "laser dmg problem" of amarr (at least for ships smaller than bs and anyway t2 bs are coming) also amarr got some nice boosts too recently in form of tracking and nos nerf (bad for curse but good for all other ships) in the end i think with recent changes amarr are pretty ok... there are some ships that need a bit of work but last changes alredy helped with most of the old amarr troubles Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Becka Call	Posted - 2007.09.21 03:48:00 - [34] Give Amarr ships a bonus to mounted cap recharges. cap power relays, and CCC rigs.
Rudy Metallo The Bastards	Posted - 2007.09.21 05:10:00 - [35] 25% cap consumption reduction on all lasers (equivalent to having level 5 in a certain area now), and given a damage/tracking etc bonus. Rather than a slight boost in damage to EM, a nerf on armor EM resistance. My reasoning? Shield (natural) Resists - 0 + 60 + 40 + 20 = 120 Armor (natural) Resists - 60 + 10 +25 + 35 = 130 See the incongruency? So take 10% off EM resist to armor, the incongruency in fixed and Amarr get a boost. Before you claim that this is nerfing Armor tanking - know that I too tank armor, and still think that this is a fair resolution. On Shield weakness, EM, they have 0 resistance, while armor has 10% resist to explosive. Say what?
goodby4u Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.21 05:15:00 - [36] No the best way to counteract high cap use is adding in an additional skill that gives 10% reduced cap per lvl,mainly so amarr are still the race of sp.. As for the bonus drop it for whatever the ship asks for... And zealot YES. __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr. I am minmatar,fly amarr,use gellente drones and am in caldari space.
ForumPosterAlt HERRO KITTY	Posted - 2007.09.21 05:47:00 - [37] Its the ships that suck not lasers. They need more mids, fewer lows, better bonuses. All amarr dps boats should have the capacitor usage bonus. Apocalypse needs to not be stupid. Etc. Because posting on the forums is serious business.
Jordan Musgrat Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.09.21 09:06:00 - [38] I still disagree. Some of you just have this idea in your head that the zealot should do x dps, and be able to do y and z. Nothing is broken about this ship. People fly it all the time, and do just fine... Also, if you fit for ganking, yes it can take on a BC. If you fit for tanking, I have yet to see a 7 slot tank that sucks, even with T1 resists. ----------- Primary is family values, secondary is 0.0...
Firkragg Blue Labs Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.21 09:32:00 - [39] I semi agree that the zealot as a ship is fine. The problem though is that however good it looks on paper in the real world its damage ends up sub par due to everyone having high em resists. My ideal solution is increase laser damage and keep cap the same. This would still mean that amarr are doing em like CCP seem to want, it also means you dont have the balancing issues that would probabaly arise from nerfing armour em resists.
Rudy Metallo The Bastards	Posted - 2007.09.21 10:40:00 - [40] Edited by: Rudy Metallo on 21/09/2007 10:43:45 Originally by: Firkragg I semi agree that the zealot as a ship is fine. The problem though is that however good it looks on paper in the real world its damage ends up sub par due to everyone having high em resists. My ideal solution is increase laser damage and keep cap the same. This would still mean that amarr are doing em like CCP seem to want, it also means you dont have the balancing issues that would probabaly arise from nerfing armour em resists. Most people use DC's on their ships anyway, that ytakes your EM resist right back up to 60% anyway. And then you've got the omni tank everyone uses. Tbh when it comes down to it on the bigger ships, it's the difference between 70% and 75% EM resist. And, if you look at the math, this is balancing it. Armor tankers have that extra 10% in explosive (compared to EM 0% in shields), so shouldnt we have a -10% in another area to balance it? The most natural would be EM. Quote: Its the ships that suck not lasers. They need more mids, fewer lows, better bonuses. All amarr dps boats should have the capacitor usage bonus. Apocalypse needs to not be stupid. Etc. A lack of mids and an excess of lows is what Amarr is. They have little to no Ewar capability and a ***in' tan, which is supposed to be complimented with some DPS. Want more mids? Train Minny or Caldari. Slot layouts should not be changed (except for the zealot getting that extra turret). Quote:** Amarr should be the SP race Wrong, Minmatar are the SP race I think you'll find. Say what?
Amy Wang	Posted - 2007.09.21 10:53:00 - [41] Edited by: Amy Wang on 21/09/2007 10:54:20 Originally by: ITTigerClawIK Its been disscused many times by verius people so i thought id bring the most commonly suggested ideas into one thread and see witch "Boost" is more populer if i have missed some then please let me know and i shall add. 1.Reduction in Cap useage for all lassers thus takeing away the need for a cap bonus on every single Amarr ship and givieng a damage bonus in insted or armour bonus 2.Damage swap so that lassers do more Thermal Damage with Lassers than EM thus still doing a large amount of damage to shields but also a rather large amount of damage to shields, of course there is also the fact that this will conflict with the fact that Gallente are the race that is ment to be specialiseing with Thermal damage. 3.Overall Damage boost to lasers overcomeing some of the naturally high EM and therm resists to be on mostly on par with the damage output of other weapon types, 4.Reduction on base EM and thermal resistance's on most ships but mostly base EM Please disscus your thoughts and opinions on the ideas and post your own bellow and please try to keep to constructive and insightfull content not just one liners PS: i have not mentiond crysts that do kenetic dmg for one very good reason, LASERS DONT EXPLODE its an energy based weapon please remember that and CCP have made it clear already that it will not make such charges for lasers 1. Ship bonuses are meant to overcome natural weaknesses of the weapons (except for gallente where it mostly buffs already good weapons even more but then again high dps is meant to be their racial trait). Saying laser should get cap reduction built in and a "useful" second bonuses on laser boats instead is like saying to buff projectile weapons rof by 25% and give minmatar ships a "useful" bonus instead of the standard rof one. 2. That change wont do much for Gallente directly, neither good or bad but it would make thermal the primary damage type by far which would lead to thermal being hardened more on all tanks which in turn would reverse the positive effect that change intended for amarr while at the same time nerf gallente indirectly. Hey, now that I think of it that doesnt sound to bad :P But CCP wont do it to keep some kind of balance between damage types, thermal is already the most common used damage in the game after all (hybrids, gallente drones and lasers to a lesser extend as well). 3. Not going to happen, lasers already eat shields and have great dps, omni armor tanks are a problem but so are omni shield tanks for projectile guns which btw have far less dps and optimal range (read: even less dps again) then lasers 4. Resistance distribution with the strengths and weaknesses of shield and armor is well thought out and its highly unlikely to get changed imho, the real problem is that shield tanks are less attractive in pvp then armor tanks because the important pvp modules go in the med slots which leads to more armor omni tanks then shield omni tanks around, but I really dont see a way of changing that without radically changing game mechanics or ship designs.
Ziena Amani	Posted - 2007.09.21 12:15:00 - [42] Originally by: Amy Wang Edited by: Amy Wang on 21/09/2007 10:54:20 1. Ship bonuses are meant to overcome natural weaknesses of the weapons (except for gallente where it mostly buffs already good weapons even more but then again high dps is meant to be their racial trait). Saying laser should get cap reduction built in and a "useful" second bonuses on laser boats instead is like saying to buff projectile weapons rof by 25% and give minmatar ships a "useful" bonus instead of the standard rof one. Heh, hardly so. The 5% Rof/lvl is hardly just a compensation for a weakness of weapon system as itself, more like a compensation for a lesser amount of turrets on the ship, compared to its contenders in a class. Heck, just compare unbonused FMP II with AC 220 II. 31.2 dps vs 28.3, at perfect skills, but FMP is harder to fit(132/19 PG/CPU vs 110/22), eats 2.1 cap/s, has worse damage types and less tracking. Granted ACs have laughable optimal, but they're quite on par with lasers.. to say the least. Oh, yeah, lasers don't use ammo.. but wait, it's just t1(anyone still flies with this?) and you're bound to carry millions of isk in a form of lenses with you. And before you start moaning how expensive Barrage M is.. you might want to check the price on Scorch M ;) Originally by: Amy Wang 3. Not going to happen, lasers already eat shields and have great dps, omni armor tanks are a problem but so are omni shield tanks for projectile guns which btw have far less dps and optimal range (read: even less dps again) then lasers Except projectiles can vary damage types(not as convenient as missiles, but nevertheless).. Far less dps, yeah, like.. 10%? While often having rof/damage bonus to compensate for that, while lasers have cap use boni.
Aferah	Posted - 2007.09.21 12:48:00 - [43] Originally by: Jordan Musgrat I still disagree. Some of you just have this idea in your head that the zealot should do x dps, and be able to do y and z. Nothing is broken about this ship. People fly it all the time, and do just fine... Also, if you fit for ganking, yes it can take on a BC. If you fit for tanking, I have yet to see a 7 slot tank that sucks, even with T1 resists. hmmmm, you do fly zealot, right ?
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.09.21 17:08:00 - [44] The only issue I have left with Amarr is the cap usage of lasers. The EM/therm split is fine. If the damage split was reversed then people would just tank even more against thermal and laser users would be no better off. So back to cap usage. It is rediculous that ships with the cap usage bonus to lasers use only slightly less cap on lasers at level 5 than they would if they just fit hybrids. The hybrids provide better tracking, higher damage mod, and greater falloff with the only disadvantage being lower optimal. I wouldn't have an issue with the cap usage of lasers and the subsequent cap usage bonus if lasers were better in most regards (as compared to hybrids/projectiles) so that you could replace the usual damage/tracking mods with cap stuff. Also, can we please get a mod that goes in high slot that reduces the cap usage of lasers/hybrids (or just lasers since they are the ones that really need it) since the NOS nerf basically makes the utility high slots of Amarr turret boats useless. What playing Amarr feels like.
Kirov VIII	Posted - 2007.09.22 00:13:00 - [45] CCP need to work & solve this problem quickly ! Amarr are stuck for enough time. We need play like another race in this game. We have no reductions on the price if we have a character amarr.
Cosmo Raata Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.22 02:08:00 - [46] #1 Decrease Cap Usage on all Lasers by 50% #2 Change 10% bonus to Large Energy Turret capacitor use bonus to 5% maximum Capacitor Capacity per level or 5% reduction of capacitor recharge time bonuses This will make Amarr a Cap Race, as this change fixed the Sac, it will fix all Amarr ships except for the few I will now mention. Apoc - Needs new role (e.g. Cap bonus combined with Drone bonus) Zealot - 5th Turret Point Retribution - 2nd Med Slot Last fix is PG usage on Beams, Tachyon, Mega, Heavy, Focused & Quad. Smaller beams have already been tweaked. Damage is fine, there are more shield tanked ships now so EM is valuable again. CCP, you do these things and Amarr will be fine. These are easy to do fixes and dont cause an unbalance as there is no damage increase or some super unfair bonus given.
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.09.22 02:34:00 - [47] Originally by: Cosmo Raata #1 Decrease Cap Usage on all Lasers by 50% #2 Change 10% bonus to Large Energy Turret capacitor use bonus to 5% maximum Capacitor Capacity per level or 5% reduction of capacitor recharge time bonuses This will make Amarr a Cap Race, as this change fixed the Sac, it will fix all Amarr ships except for the few I will now mention. Apoc - Needs new role (e.g. Cap bonus combined with Drone bonus) Zealot - 5th Turret Point Retribution - 2nd Med Slot Last fix is PG usage on Beams, Tachyon, Mega, Heavy, Focused & Quad. Smaller beams have already been tweaked. Damage is fine, there are more shield tanked ships now so EM is valuable again. CCP, you do these things and Amarr will be fine. These are easy to do fixes and dont cause an unbalance as there is no damage increase or some super unfair bonus given. This is balanced on every Amarr ship except the Armageddon. With these changes, it would do 95% of the damage of a neutron blasterthron with 10x the range.
Cosmo Raata Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.22 02:39:00 - [48] Originally by: Xequecal Originally by: Cosmo Raata #1 Decrease Cap Usage on all Lasers by 50% #2 Change 10% bonus to Large Energy Turret capacitor use bonus to 5% maximum Capacitor Capacity per level or 5% reduction of capacitor recharge time bonuses This will make Amarr a Cap Race, as this change fixed the Sac, it will fix all Amarr ships except for the few I will now mention. Apoc - Needs new role (e.g. Cap bonus combined with Drone bonus) Zealot - 5th Turret Point Retribution - 2nd Med Slot Last fix is PG usage on Beams, Tachyon, Mega, Heavy, Focused & Quad. Smaller beams have already been tweaked. Damage is fine, there are more shield tanked ships now so EM is valuable again. CCP, you do these things and Amarr will be fine. These are easy to do fixes and dont cause an unbalance as there is no damage increase or some super unfair bonus given. This is balanced on every Amarr ship except the Armageddon. With these changes, it would do 95% of the damage of a neutron blasterthron with 10x the range. 10x the range huh? I fly both Amarr & Gallente, yet I still choose the Mega inspite of the range. Mega has better tracking, more armor, more hull, more med slots to hold a tackle. I dont get why everyone must jump in & say that amarr are fine when they either dont fly them, are brand new to the game or they just are content with what they have and they dont know any better. Amarr was promised a fix, Khanid isn't all of Amarr, therefore I presented a very logical "CCP" type of fix.
Beaver Patrol	Posted - 2007.09.22 04:38:00 - [49] screw lasers they are for lamers! Fix the Nos on amarr recons instead. NPC P.R Dept.
Bback	Posted - 2007.09.22 08:41:00 - [50] honestly a 5-10% reduction in PG need and 15% or so reduction in cap usage and amarr ships would be world easier to fit. it would let you fit techII, or another resist plate insted of a PG booster or cap recharger. the people saying 25% of cap usage AND 20% off PG are just silly. its a freaking laser beam...its going to take a boat load of energy to make it work...deal with it
ITTigerClawIK Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.23 12:37:00 - [51] First. Post updated Secondly. NOS on Amarr recons are fine its what they are ment to do, suck cap Thirdly.thankyou all for keeping comments constructive Forthly..........................Bump Sig space reclaimed in the name of me -courtesy of Tiggy ([email protected])
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.09.23 13:00:00 - [52] Make the apoc and a cruiser (maller or omen) khanid or at least missile based, so basically missile spammers. Lower fitting reqs/cap use on lasers. Slightly lower laser DPS and give the rest of the amarr ships real bonuses instead of cap usage bonuses. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Ash'el Zeal Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.09.23 15:50:00 - [53] Originally by: Cosmo Raata #1 Decrease Cap Usage on all Lasers by 50% #2 Change 10% bonus to Large Energy Turret capacitor use bonus to 5% maximum Capacitor Capacity per level or 5% reduction of capacitor recharge time bonuses This will make Amarr a Cap Race, as this change fixed the Sac, it will fix all Amarr ships except for the few I will now mention. Apoc - Needs new role (e.g. Cap bonus combined with Drone bonus) Zealot - 5th Turret Point Retribution - 2nd Med Slot Last fix is PG usage on Beams, Tachyon, Mega, Heavy, Focused & Quad. Smaller beams have already been tweaked. Damage is fine, there are more shield tanked ships now so EM is valuable again. CCP, you do these things and Amarr will be fine. These are easy to do fixes and dont cause an unbalance as there is no damage increase or some super unfair bonus given. /Signed
ITTigerClawIK Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.25 13:05:00 - [54] gunna give this topic a quick bump Sig space reclaimed in the name of me -courtesy of Tiggy ([email protected])
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.25 13:50:00 - [55] Originally by: Wayward Hooligan On t1 ships shields have a total of 120 resist points. Armor has a total of 140 resist points. The difference is most likely to make up for shields having a natural regen. 1 - Remove 10% EM resist from armor across the board on all t1 ships and therefore their t2 versions as well. That directly boosts laser users but has NO effect on anyone else. It us a pure laser boost. 2 - Reduce cap usage of lasers such that they are still the highest cap using weapon per shot for like weapons but not using DOUBLE the cap. Neutron Blaster Cannon -vs- Mega Pulse -> Mega Pulse should use 25% - 50% more cap per shot. Currently its 18.2 -vs- 40 425mm Railgun -vs- Mega Beam -> Mega Beam should use 25% to 50% more cap per shot. Currently its 30 -vs- 65 This would keep lasers as the cap heavy turret system but it would make it less ridiculous. 3 - Remove cap use bonus from all ships with it and generally sort the ship bonus into better lines of ships. ex: Omen -> Proph -> Geddon => ROF bonus, Range bonus(pulled from Zealot) Maller -> Harb -> Abaddon => Damage bonus, Armor resist bonus Yes pls, give the geddon a range bonus. I'd just love a Mega Pulse II geddon that with scorch L has a optimal of 100km. :) I'm not neutral in RAGOON vs BOB, I just dislike both sides. :)
Irob Urore Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.09.25 13:50:00 - [56] didnt amarr just get a boost, wth is wrong with you people.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.25 13:55:00 - [57] Originally by: Irob Urore didnt amarr just get a boost, wth is wrong with you people. Huh? You mean amarr is now the only race that still needs cap booster and already have too many medslots :P ?
Kazuma Saruwatari	Posted - 2007.09.25 14:04:00 - [58] Originally by: Irob Urore didnt amarr just get a boost, wth is wrong with you people. I'm sorry, but what boost? Oh the Caldari-err.. Khanid Mk2. Right. It still doesnt fix the main problem in most of the Amarr ships, which is their major suffering in terms of cap and fitting lasers. Whilst Amarr enjoys its cousin-boost in the form of missiles (OMG we have to train missiles now?!), it still doesnt fix the problem with lasers. - Odd Pod Out, a blog of EVE Online
Mrski Okupator Amarr The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.09.25 15:14:00 - [59] Originally by: Irob Urore didnt amarr just get a boost, wth is wrong with you people. And wth is the boost? Ah, you mean stripping lasers from a few ships? Yeah, I feel boosted. Go buy a clue, and I'll give you one for free. ___ Apocalypse Mining. Mine your way to heaven. What playing Amarr feels like. Shamelessly snatched from Almarez.
Relnala	Posted - 2007.09.25 15:53:00 - [60] I personally tend to fly my character that runs highly specialized gallente battleship pilots, and I tend to engage mostly other battleships. In my opinion, the apoc could really use a revamp. Turning it into a missile boat would be the best choice (Drone boat + cap bonus might be a bit crazy, especially if you leave it with enough grid / highslots to fit guns). The nos change recently WAS an amarr boost. CCP is probably doing things in small steps to make sure that they don't make an overwhelming change somewhere that completely ruins the balance of the game in favor of Amarr. Cap: In my opinion, reducing some of the cap usage on lasers would be a decent boost for them (I know how much cap they use even with ship-type level 5s and it can be a bit crazy, especially with damage mods on). Perhaps on like of 10-15% Short Range: Possibly increase the base damage mod on all amarr lasers and give them a slower ROF (gives them the same damage, and keeps the cap skills / ship bonus to cap usage relevent. Amarr guns already have decent tracking and range so (I'm looking at mega pulses compared to the much-whined about neutron blaster here. The Mega Pulse has 1.8x the range of a blaster, and the blaster only has 30% more tracking. Factor in the tracking bonus from the megathron and the ability to hit comes out to roughly proportional, better range on the Megapulse, better tracking on the Blaster. In all reality, that extra range is a HUGE bonus in combat, because a megathron can't really hit anything outside of say 22km with Null ammo (I'm in class right now so I can't login to see my exact range.) The neutron blaster has a higher damage multiplier and the same ROF, giving it a higher base damage, at reduced range and cap usage to say, the Armageddon. Both ships get a damage or ROF bonus, both have big drone bays. The Geddon gets an extra lowslot and the thron an extra mid. Midslots I'll admit are very useful, however I say the biggest comparison issue is that the Megapulse uses comparatively more PG to the base grid of a Geddon than a neutron blaster does in comparison to the Megathron. (I'll not compare the apoc because I think its broken, and I won't do the abaddon because I know the abaddons are amazing ships.) To be honest, I'm tired of being told that my ships are overpowered when I know quite well the weaknesses of my own ship. If I'm farther than 10km from my target the "ridiculous dps" that people complain about is considerably lowered and the advantage I had is considerably weakened in favor of my opponents. Simple fact: don't snuggle a megathron. All it can do is stand toe to toe and duke it out with you, so don't let it sit on you. (Throns have cap issues too by the way ;)) If you start the battle a good distance from him, even if he has a MWD to get to you, he's gonna take a battering on the way (both to his armor and his cap) so that extra range is really your friend. I don't think the Amarr battleships really need a bonus to damage, if used right they're very lethal on all terms. A PG reduction on the guns in range of 5-10% would be worth a shot though. EM Resists: I say go ahead and lower EM resists by 10% base on all armor tanking ships. This is a boost to both Amarr and Minmatar who use EMP ammo, while not really making much difference otherwise. Thermal Damage: I really hope they don't give anyone more of a reason to tank thermal because it will make thermal the predominant damage type in eve (where before you needed resists to all types unless you had great intel). Zealot: Give the zealot an extra turret and a bit of grid/cpu to fill it out. Don't really think it will change much for anyone else.
Rialtor Amarr Yarrrateers Mass Destruction.	Posted - 2007.09.25 18:43:00 - [61] ok, you can't just give amarr more mids, then it would just be like minnie/gallente. Amarr has it's own "feel", and mids aren't part of that feel. You should have at least known that when you picked Amarr. Amarr = lots of highs and lows at the expense of mids. CCP needs to make more versitale High/Low items, more high slot EWAR, and low slot modifications. Perhaps a drone bay expansion, something like that, so Amarr can use more of it's slots for something multipurpose. Why can't they make a high slot scrambler with long range and % chance of success? that would go a long way towards opening up more styles of combat. You may see successful ranged gangs. Ships would have to use this module while they sacrifice DPS, so it's kind of self balancing. I'm glad to see Gallente coming down to earth withsome announced balancing changes. Let's wait till after gallente changes to suggest other changes. I feel the gap between minnie/caldari/amarr is closer than people think.
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.10.01 08:41:00 - [62] Still no dev input on any amarrian woes......
Wizzkidy Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.10.01 09:20:00 - [63] Originally by: shinsushi Still no dev input on any amarrian woes...... It's been years and we have had no decent amount of boosts, infact we have had nerf after nerf. Seriouly don't expect anything.
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.10.01 09:27:00 - [64] Originally by: Wizzkidy Originally by: shinsushi Still no dev input on any amarrian woes...... It's been years and we have had no decent amount of boosts, infact we have had nerf after nerf. Seriouly don't expect anything. Your right, I have been here since November of 2005, seeing the same complaints about Amarr, and seeing not a whole lot done. Khanid MK II was nice (although didn't adress the main issues) and the tracking boost came out of left field. Now that I think about it, CCP has been promising something for the last 18 months and still nothing.
Revan Darkness Amarr Warrior Nation United SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.01 12:05:00 - [65] Edited by: Revan Darkness on 01/10/2007 12:06:26 I believe a modification to laser damage amount is appropriate The capacitor use of lasers makes sense as the energy obviously has to come from somewhere and there is no ammunition. Therefore, I'm fine with the usage as it is because it can be somewhat compensated with rigs and injectors. An additional boost to racial damage of lasers both EM and Thermal would bring lasers up to par with the other gun platforms such as projectiles and hybrids
Neon Genesis The Landed Gentry	Posted - 2007.10.01 12:21:00 - [66] Edited by: Neon Genesis on 01/10/2007 12:23:36 Originally by: Jordan Musgrat Zealot has range and 2 damage bonuses, and is the highest damaging HAC that hits past 100k.. Absolutely pointless attribute for a hac. Similar price to the battleships that do the job 10x better. Also, the apocalypse is dying for an overhaul. Being a big tank with no firepower means you are a giant brick waiting to be ganked at the moment. _
Sofring Eternus	Posted - 2007.10.01 12:32:00 - [67] Originally by: Revan Darkness Edited by: Revan Darkness on 01/10/2007 12:06:26 I believe a modification to laser damage amount is appropriate The capacitor use of lasers makes sense as the energy obviously has to come from somewhere and there is no ammunition. Therefore, I'm fine with the usage as it is because it can be somewhat compensated with rigs and injectors. An additional boost to racial damage of lasers both EM and Thermal would bring lasers up to par with the other gun platforms such as projectiles and hybrids Maybe there's no ammunition in the turret itself, but how long does it take to reload a projectile or hybrid turret? Compare that to how long it takes to reload the damned capacitor.
Revan Darkness Amarr Warrior Nation United SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.01 12:44:00 - [68] Originally by: Sofring Eternus Maybe there's no ammunition in the turret itself, but how long does it take to reload a projectile or hybrid turret? Compare that to how long it takes to reload the damned capacitor. Being totally capped out just sucks...I do hope they fix the issues with ships like the Abaddon especially. If Amarr ships are to continue being so utterly energy intensive then they need more devastating firepower. If my Abaddon empties out its whole capacitor I want that target to be a glob of minerals because my ship is then right ****ed
Y3R M4W	Posted - 2007.10.01 13:15:00 - [69] In my opinion the only global boost Amarr need is maybe a reduction in base EM armor resists, by 15-20% (no math btw, that may actually be unbalancing). Individual ships need some adjustment though, especially the Apocalypse, which needs a new role and suitable bonuses. In the case of the Zealot, a drone bay would be a balancing factor imo, 25-50m3 ideally. Alternatively, a good one I heard, would be to half the cap use of lasers and swap every "10% bonus to laser cap use" bonus for a 5% bonus to laser damage Yes I'm aware the last point is imbalancing Note: YER MAW! is Scottish for Your Mother.
ITTigerClawIK Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.11 00:10:00 - [70] Quick Bump Now with all this being said im waiting for a lil Dev input here... PLEASE Sig space reclaimed in the name of me -courtesy of Tiggy ([email protected])
Sofring Eternus Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.10.11 00:45:00 - [71] A couple good suggestions, but not entirely fair to our other turret using brethren. I would like to see some rebalancing as opposed to a pure buff (the following suggestions must be done together to avoid overpowering Amarr): 1)Reduce cap use on pulse & beam by 35% 2)Reduce range on pulse by ~40% and increase tracking by ~40% 3)Reduce tracking on beam by ~30% and increase range by ~30% 4)Introduce new armor tanking module to compete with the EANM II, however, give it 25% to each resist and 0% to EM. This still allows for omni tanking without people jacking their EM resists higher. - ΞνΞ ΘΠLІΠΞ
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.10.11 04:13:00 - [72] Reducing laser cap use is really out of flavor for lasers. I doubt it will ever happen. It just turns pulse lasers into carbon copies of blasters with +range and -dps, and beams into copies of railguns with -range and +dps.
RuSBO Amarr Solar Dragons Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.11 06:30:00 - [73] add 125m3 dronebay to damnation 50DPS with links from standart launchers - its not funny __________________ We're RIGHT! Just shut you mother F...!
Izo Azlion Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.10.11 08:32:00 - [74] Edited by: Izo Azlion on 11/10/2007 08:33:13 Originally by: Kruel Lasers need to be boosted in damage slightly across the board. Beams need to be easier to fit and use slightly less cap. Zealot needs another turret + some cpu. - No - Maybe, but I dont really use Beams. - No. Yes, I fly Amarr, infact, I specifically fly the Zealot. It handles fine. why are you all whining about a race that performs? Edit: Originally by: RuSBO add 125m3 dronebay to damnation 50DPS with links from standart launchers - its not funny Its not a DPS boat. If you want DPS, get in a absolution/zealot/geddon Izo Azlion. ---
RuSBO Amarr Solar Dragons Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.11 09:46:00 - [75] Originally by: Izo Azlion Its not a DPS boat. If you want DPS, get in a absolution/zealot/geddon I dont want 600-800DPS but 200-280 must be at least, not 50 =(( look at eos. command ship is hard to learn, they must be more flexible... __________________ We're RIGHT! Just shut you mother F...!
Julio Torres Chosen Path	Posted - 2007.10.11 10:16:00 - [76] Laser based weapons only use cap if they hit the target. Ie, weapons does not fire if they dont have a positive fire sollution. Since laser based wepons have lightspeed velocity, it's a credible way to fix cap issues.
Wizzkidy Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.10.11 12:26:00 - [77] Originally by: ITTigerClawIK Quick Bump Now with all this being said im waiting for a lil Dev input here... PLEASE You won't get it, they have had SO many opportunities to reply to these threads about fixing Amarr yet they never reply CCP seem to think that changing laser cap use and or damage or ANYTHING to lasers infact will just overpower Amarr. I would be more then happy if they just reduced the stacking nerf on heat sink 2's I mean before that stacking nerf lasers where quite good. Lasers imo are suppose to be very powerful, after this stackin nerf they became tbh crap.... I dunno why I bother replying to these threads because NOTHNG ever gets replied to by the devs here on amarr changes.
Laramon Questor Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2007.10.11 13:18:00 - [78] Edited by: Laramon Questor on 11/10/2007 13:21:31 Edited by: Laramon Questor on 11/10/2007 13:20:39 TBH, when I started out, I found that I liked Amarr better than Minmatar, so I switched. I loved most of the smaller Amarr ships over the Minmatar, so stuck with it, growing up in ship sizes as I went. I spent 2 years specializing in Amarr T1 and T2 frigates because I loved them so much. I worked my way into a Curse after being ganked repeatedly over the months by other Curses who would nos my ships into sitting bricks; and 1 week later nos was changed. My Curse was nerfed and it wasn't worth flying. I got into HACs right after the Khanid MK2, and was VERY happy with my Sacrilege. But that was only because it was, in essence, an armor tanking Caldari ship. I won't complain, I'm VERY happy with it. Then I got into BCs. My Harbinger wouldn't be so great if it wasn't for the fact that I can field drones to vary my damage a little. If it weren't for that, my DPS would be dismal except in missions against Blood Raiders and Sansha's. It gets the job done in PvE, but is totally lacking in PvP (might change a bit when the drone bay increases due to the "bandwidth" upgrade and I can field different assortments of drones). And then Battleships. Wow, not much to choose from as far as flavors go. Apoc is a flying capacitor, Geddon is a tanker, and the Abaddon looks like it blows its wad after 30 seconds. There's really no other options. So I turned to my corp, and everyone either flies the Maelstrom (a good solid ship) or the Dominix. So I trained a whole entire new race, as well as increasing my drone skill tree 10-fold (I'm not kidding) just so I could have a good solid battleship platform. In PvE I seriously consider it the King. And in PvP, my Neutradomi setup can turn the tides on anything that doesn't use projectiles. In other words, except for the Sacrilege, there's nothing that interests me that Amarr has to offer from cruisers and up. And that's sad. P.S. I'm still training for Command Ships, and have already bought a Damnation. I will test it before I knock it, but I'm not making any promises. Master of Arms Liason, Angel Cartel Sergeant, Archangels Dedication: 220%
General Apocalypse Amarr The Merchant Marines	Posted - 2007.10.11 14:51:00 - [79] Edited by: General Apocalypse on 11/10/2007 14:52:04 Originally by: Cosmo Raata #1 Decrease Cap Usage on all Lasers by 50% #2 Change 10% bonus to Large Energy Turret capacitor use bonus to 5% maximum Capacitor Capacity per level or 5% reduction of capacitor recharge time bonuses This will make Amarr a Cap Race, as this change fixed the Sac, it will fix all Amarr ships except for the few I will now mention. Apoc - Needs new role (e.g. Cap bonus combined with Drone bonus) Zealot - 5th Turret Point Retribution - 2nd Med Slot Last fix is PG usage on Beams, Tachyon, Mega, Heavy, Focused & Quad. Smaller beams have already been tweaked. Damage is fine, there are more shield tanked ships now so EM is valuable again. CCP, you do these things and Amarr will be fine. These are easy to do fixes and dont cause an unbalance as there is no damage increase or some super unfair bonus given. /signed . Tuxford C'mon it's your idea come here and support it Originally by: CCP Morpheus nerf ccp plz Originally by: CCP Oveur To the gankmobile!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.11 15:22:00 - [80] Originally by: Izo Azlion Its not a DPS boat. If you want DPS, get in a absolution/zealot/geddon The Zealot is not a dps boat.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.11 15:29:00 - [81] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Izo Azlion Its not a DPS boat. If you want DPS, get in a absolution/zealot/geddon The Zealot is not a dps boat. Hey he's specifically flying it... too bad it's outdamaged by tanked thorax
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.11 15:31:00 - [82] Edited by: LUKEC on 11/10/2007 15:31:24 Originally by: RuSBO Originally by: Izo Azlion Its not a DPS boat. If you want DPS, get in a absolution/zealot/geddon I dont want 600-800DPS but 200-280 must be at least, not 50 =(( look at eos. command ship is hard to learn, they must be more flexible... You do 200 dps with 5x ham II using faction ammo and 5 light drones. Still fck all
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2007.10.12 01:21:00 - [83] The guy who keeps suggested a decrease to armor EM resist fails. Stupid idea that would hurt your own tank more than increase damage. I like the half cap and swap the cap useage to cap recharge or cap size, would make the Amarr race very interesting to fly, and bring some more flavor to a flavor-tastic game
Khaladan Amarr Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.12 11:14:00 - [84] Originally by: Atsuko Ratu The guy who keeps suggested a decrease to armor EM resist fails. Stupid idea that would hurt your own tank more than increase damage. I like the half cap and swap the cap useage to cap recharge or cap size, would make the Amarr race very interesting to fly, and bring some more flavor to a flavor-tastic game So laser damage continues to suck ***, just at a lower cap cost? No thanks. Damage resistance is the main problem Amarr face in PVP, and that's what needs fixing. I think most Amarr pilots would gladly keep current cap usage in exchange for a higher DPS output (though lower cap usage and* higher DPS would be the sexiest option we can always dream....)
Nidion	Posted - 2007.10.12 12:24:00 - [85] bump This issue deserves notice. Check out the new Economy Dev Blog on the sale and manufacture of ships, you will find that the Amarr ships are the least popular, the least produced and the make up the smallest part of the entire Player Owned ships category. Mainly due to the issues most people have posted here before. I dont understand why the devs refuse to balance Amarr with the other races....
Sofring Eternus Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.10.12 13:45:00 - [86] Edited by: Sofring Eternus on 12/10/2007 13:46:46 Edited by: Sofring Eternus on 12/10/2007 13:46:05 Originally by: Atsuko Ratu The guy who keeps suggested a decrease to armor EM resist fails. Stupid idea that would hurt your own tank more than increase damage. I like the half cap and swap the cap useage to cap recharge or cap size, would make the Amarr race very interesting to fly, and bring some more flavor to a flavor-tastic game Agreed, nerfing every Amarr mission runner tank is bad Mmm'kay. Perhaps a better route would be to: Introduce new armor tanking module to compete with the EANM II, however, give it 25% to each resist and 0% to EM. This still allows for omni tanking without people jacking their EM resists ever higher. I started a topic on that in the Game Development forum thread --- ΞνΞ ΘΠLІΠΞ
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.12 15:53:00 - [87] Originally by: Izo Azlion Yes, I fly Amarr, infact, I specifically fly the Zealot. It handles fine. why are you all whining about a race that performs? I fly Gallente and Amarr HACs. Honestly there's no point in flying a Zealot over the other available HACs aside from being different and looking cool. If I want to get up close with dps, I'll use a Deimos. If I want to hang outside of web range, I'll use a Sac or Ishtar. Close range Zealot doesn't compare to the Deimos at close range. Zealot with Scorch simply doesn't compare to the Sac or Ishtar in DPS outside of web range. Where's the niche? Sniping frigs at 100k with beams? No thanks.
RossP Zoyka	Posted - 2007.10.12 16:53:00 - [88] Keep the cap use penalty (I mean bonus) and friggin put an extra turret slot on all the amarr boats. Amarr solved. Who cares about cap? We need more guns!
ITTigerClawIK Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.14 20:57:00 - [89] Quick bump Sig space reclaimed in the name of me -courtesy of Tiggy ([email protected])
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.14 21:53:00 - [90] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 14/10/2007 21:54:30 Problem with amarr is this: Best speed: 1) Minmatar 2) Gallente 3) Amarr 4) Caldari Highest close range gank 1) Gallente 2) Minmatar 3) Amarr 4) Caldari Longest range with long range weaponry 1) Caldari 2) Gallente 3) Minmatar 4) Amarr Worst tracking in typical close range pvp ranges 1) Amarr 2) Minamatar 3) Gallente 4) Caldari Drone bay (not 100% on this except gallente is on top) 1) Gallente 2) Minmatar 3) Amarr 4) Caldari Is it just me or is amarr getting the short end of the stick of mostly everything in pvp while gallente is ontop or close to it?
Detriment Caldari H.Y.D.R.A.	Posted - 2007.10.14 22:35:00 - [91] Amarr is weakly positioned against its competitors. Almost all racial ships have high EM Armour Damage (nearly no shield EM bonuses, except @ FCS level). Lasers have crap for tracking, and almost all the T2 crystals nerf it even further. having high armour dmg resistances is only beneficial if you have low Sig radius and are not using extneders, MWD, etc. - most PvP are doing some kind of extended tnak setups. And lasers just do weak damage, esp in the sm/med class weapons. Give them better tracking, higher base damage modifier. Give the Amarr drone bays to make up the difference. Zealot (and Eagle) should get 5th Turret.
Sevis	Posted - 2007.10.15 02:02:00 - [92] I like the idea of lasers being the best guns in the game. The Jove use lasers, so it fits. I like the idea of only Amarr really being able to effectively use them, since Amarr need something that holds them apart. The cap requirements of lasers and the Amarr ship cap bonus works perfectly to that end. Looking at the stats, it looks like there is a plan. I think the idea is that when you equip a beam laser your might as well have a ship mod that says +8% tracking per level. And when you equip a pulse laser you might as well have a ship bonus that says 10% range per level. (Of course pulse are a little more bizzare than this, because they have even more extra range on top of that but reduced tracking and maybe damage to balance it.) Except, not quite. You get the bonus to the gun stats well before you can get, but of course you lose fiting slots to cap rigs. At ship level 5 you replace those cap rigs with damage rigs and you should be just like you got a ship bonus. I'm sure that CCP has tested this with real maths and that numerically it makes sense. Lasers are slightly better than their peers once you consider all the stats at once. That's not the problem. The problem is, we're balancing our long range weapons on their ability to hit closer targets. And we're balancing our short range weapons on their ability to hit distant range targets. Looks like lasers are losing due to a lack of specialization. This happens in pretty much every MMO at some point when the devs think that making something pretty good at 2 things is just as powerful as making it really good at one thing. It never works though. See, right now other races can put their high damage weapons on ships with a damage bonus and get the benefit of true specialization, and they can do the same thing with range. Amarr don't get that double-specialization benefit since our bonus follows the guns AND doesn't match the gun's primary role. We're forever putting blasters on our Rohk and Rails on our Thorax and there's nothing we can do about it. How to fix it? I don't rightly know what to do without turning lasers into bigger hybrids. At the very least Amarr ships need to be able to fit as many guns as the other races and just as comfortably. Without this the -1 Mid, +1 low balance doesn't work. (That extra low slot is suppose to give me damage or range to make up for my lack of utility.) There are some things I'd like to see though. Give the Apoc a range bonus. Give the Zealot...something. Create a new highslot module. I think something that counters drones in some way would be nice. Once drones get their AI and interface fixed they'll lose their built in counter of being a pain in the ass to control.
ITTigerClawIK Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.15 22:36:00 - [93] bump again... lvoe the input comeing in here.. keep it up peeps ^_^ Sig space reclaimed in the name of me -courtesy of Tiggy ([email protected])
Lord Berk Amarr	Posted - 2007.10.16 05:17:00 - [94] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 14/10/2007 21:54:30 Problem with amarr is this: Best speed: 1) Minmatar 2) Gallente 3) Amarr 4) Caldari Highest close range gank 1) Gallente 2) Minmatar 3) Amarr 4) Caldari Longest range with long range weaponry 1) Caldari 2) Gallente 3) Minmatar 4) Amarr Worst tracking in typical close range pvp ranges 1) Amarr 2) Minamatar 3) Gallente 4) Caldari Drone bay (not 100% on this except gallente is on top) 1) Gallente 2) Minmatar 3) Amarr 4) Caldari Is it just me or is amarr getting the short end of the stick of mostly everything in pvp while gallente is ontop or close to it? Actually Amarr are second best drone race - many pilots seem to forget this. -------------------------------- Nice Apoc! Going mining?
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.10.16 06:55:00 - [95] Originally by: Amy Wang 1. Ship bonuses are meant to overcome natural weaknesses of the weapons (except for gallente where it mostly buffs already good weapons even more but then again high dps is meant to be their racial trait). Saying laser should get cap reduction built in and a "useful" second bonuses on laser boats instead is like saying to buff projectile weapons rof by 25% and give minmatar ships a "useful" bonus instead of the standard rof one. So you consider it "fair" and "balanced" that gallente ships do more DPS with 425's with easier fitting and less cap useage then beams (and thus a better tank)? The problem with your comparison is that there isn't anything wrong with minmatar ships since their weapons are capless. So your comparison holds no ground at all... Quote: 2. That change wont do much for Gallente directly, neither good or bad but it would make thermal the primary damage type by far which would lead to thermal being hardened more on all tanks which in turn would reverse the positive effect that change intended for amarr while at the same time nerf gallente indirectly. Hey, now that I think of it that doesnt sound to bad :P But CCP wont do it to keep some kind of balance between damage types, thermal is already the most common used damage in the game after all (hybrids, gallente drones and lasers to a lesser extend as well). Thermal and kinetic damage are far more superior to em and explosive. Quote: 3. Not going to happen, lasers already eat shields and have great dps, omni armor tanks are a problem but so are omni shield tanks for projectile guns which btw have far less dps and optimal range (read: even less dps again) then lasers Omni tanks a problem for projectile users? Huh? Just don't use EMP and omni tanks aren't a problem (omnitanks as in insane explosive resist on the shields due to invul fields while the other resistances are lower). Quote: 4. Resistance distribution with the strengths and weaknesses of shield and armor is well thought out and its highly unlikely to get changed imho, the real problem is that shield tanks are less attractive in pvp then armor tanks because the important pvp modules go in the med slots which leads to more armor omni tanks then shield omni tanks around, but I really dont see a way of changing that without radically changing game mechanics or ship designs. Wasn't your last point that minmatar had serious issues with omni shield tanks and now you claim that noone uses them? Err? --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.10.16 07:13:00 - [96] Originally by: Lord Berk Actually Amarr are second best drone race - many pilots seem to forget this. Uh? (all combined, only tech1) 10 m3 total drone space on Amarr frigates 15 m3 total drone space on Caldari frigates 15 m3 total drone space on minmatar frigates 45 m3 total drone space on gallente frigates 45 m3 total drone space on caldari cruisers 80 m3 total drone space on minmatar cruisers 95 m3 total drone space on amarr cruisers 205m3 total drone space on gallente cruisers 50 m3 total drone space on caldari battlecruisers 70 m3 total drone space on minmatar battlecruisers 75 m3 total drone space on amarr battlecruisers 175m3 total drone space on gallente battlecruisers 200 m3 total drone space on caldari battleships 275 m3 total drone space on amarr battleships 350 m3 total drone space on minmatar battleships to much to count m3 total drone space on gallente battleships So the only spot where amarr get a significant second position is with the cruisers... --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Pudnucker Boennerup Banden	Posted - 2007.10.16 08:06:00 - [97] Amarr rock. Halve the m3 of Cap Boosters.
Lord Berk Amarr	Posted - 2007.10.16 20:44:00 - [98] Originally by: Shevar Originally by: Lord Berk Actually Amarr are second best drone race - many pilots seem to forget this. Uh? (all combined, only tech1) 10 m3 total drone space on Amarr frigates 15 m3 total drone space on Caldari frigates 15 m3 total drone space on minmatar frigates 45 m3 total drone space on gallente frigates 45 m3 total drone space on caldari cruisers 80 m3 total drone space on minmatar cruisers 95 m3 total drone space on amarr cruisers 205m3 total drone space on gallente cruisers 50 m3 total drone space on caldari battlecruisers 70 m3 total drone space on minmatar battlecruisers 75 m3 total drone space on amarr battlecruisers 175m3 total drone space on gallente battlecruisers 200 m3 total drone space on caldari battleships 275 m3 total drone space on amarr battleships 350 m3 total drone space on minmatar battleships to much to count m3 total drone space on gallente battleships So the only spot where amarr get a significant second position is with the cruisers... I'll stand by my claim, the drone space is a good indicator but is not the be all and end all - the Typhoon artifically inflates the minnie numbers there (tho they are solid) Two ships well loved (or formerly well loved) - the Arbitrator and the Curse tip the scales, heavily I might add, to Amarr being the second best drone race. No other race other than Gallente gets those kinds of drone bonuses. Don't get me wrong - I fly only Amarr myself, and am of the belief they do need a boost, a moderately significant one to be sure. The tracking on pulses helped, Khanid MKII helped (IMO), and maybe incoming... What they are going to do with the Apoc is gonna tell the tale. Drones, Missiles, or Energy warfare ? They fix the Apoc, give it a role, give the zealot its 5th gun, cut the cap use of lasers by something like 20-25%, reduce the PG req's on beams, I'd consider Amarr balanced. -------------------------------- Nice Apoc! Going mining?
Ayomide	Posted - 2007.10.16 20:50:00 - [99] Originally by: ITTigerClawIK PS: i have not mentiond crysts that do kenetic dmg for one very good reason, LASERS DONT EXPLODE its an energy based weapon please remember that and CCP have made it clear already that it will not make such charges for lasers Actually, powerful laser damage on a material will superheat an area and make it explode. Mybe it is the solution for Amarr - make them do explosive damage to armor and structure?
Tassi The Cruciform The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.16 21:00:00 - [100] Unnerf them simply. 25km with multifrequency on mega pulse. Increase dps to 900 - 1000k Reduce Beam powergrid use by 30%. At least my 40mill sp amarr spec char is en par with my 20 mill caldari nuppin. THANKS The Cruciform recruitment
Flaming Butterfly	Posted - 2007.10.16 21:57:00 - [101] Originally by: ITTigerClawIK Edited by: ITTigerClawIK on 23/09/2007 12:29:52 Its been disscused many times by verius people so i thought id bring the most commonly suggested ideas into one thread and see witch "Boost" is more populer if i have missed some then please let me know and i shall add. 1.Reduction in Cap useage for all lassers thus takeing away the need for a cap bonus on every single Amarr ship and givieng a damage bonus in insted or armour bonus 2.Damage swap so that lassers do more Thermal Damage with Lassers than EM thus still doing a large amount of damage to shields but also a rather large amount of damage to shields, of course there is also the fact that this will conflict with the fact that Gallente are the race that is ment to be specialiseing with Thermal damage. 3.Overall Damage boost to lasers overcomeing some of the naturally high EM and therm resists to be on mostly on par with the damage output of other weapon types, 4.Reduction on base EM and thermal resistance's on most ships but mostly base EM 5.Reduction of Grid requirements so that larger lasser systems ie, Tachyons can be fit alot more easily without the need of so many reactor controll units 6.Define roles on some Amarr ships more vividly ie, Apocalypse Please disscus your thoughts and opinions on the ideas and post your own bellow and please try to keep to constructive and insightfull content not just one liners PS: i have not mentiond crysts that do kenetic dmg for one very good reason, LASERS DONT EXPLODE its an energy based weapon please remember that and CCP have made it clear already that it will not make such charges for lasers 1. Give all Amarr ships the Racial Bonus of turret cap reduction, then the turret cap use bonus can go to damage, rof, armor rep cap reduction or cap recharge rate. Amarr are known for their excellent armor. 2. Change Crystals: smalls below for example, med x2, L x4, XL x8; Radio: 5/1 Microwave: 5/2 Infared: 5/3 Standard: 5/4 UltraV: 6/4 X-Ray: 6/5 Gamma: 6/6 Multi-F: 7/6 or 7/7 3. Sounds cool. 4. No way. See #2. 5. Why, 1400mm Artillery is a pita to fit to all but Maelstrom. Fix Tachs, Fix 1400mm. 6. Why can't Apoc have Racial Laser cap reduction, 5% cap recharge rate and cap capacity? For #1: This would keep lasers as being the weapon used only by the Amarr race while solving the problem of "Vanishing Capacitor Syndrome" and "To Gank or To Tank, That is the question". Amarr are one of the older races with quite advanced technology, they mastered jump gate tech ffs. The Racial bonus for the Laser using ships makes perfect sense.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.16 22:06:00 - [102] Originally by: Flaming Butterfly ... This is a terrible idea, look at it again and see what you did wrong.
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.10.16 22:13:00 - [103] I think to fix amarr (mainly its the laser boats that have problems now) is simple. Give all lasers 10% more damage. Reduce all beam fitting requirements by 15%. Ok, problem solved. Or, nerf the living crap out of EANs and EAN IIs so that people fit tri-hardner setups again. Or, introduce modules that allow amarr/caldari to dictate range aswell (longer range webbers/scramblers.) I prefer the first one.
Flaming Butterfly	Posted - 2007.10.16 22:24:00 - [104] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Flaming Butterfly ... This is a terrible idea, look at it again and see what you did wrong. wow, your contribution to the discussion was so well constructed and illuminating. Check your Alliance ticker to see what you did wrong. Be constructive or be gone, troll.
Cudeiro Amarr Hispania Armored Forces	Posted - 2007.10.16 22:29:00 - [105] Originally by: Pudnucker Amarr rock. Halve the m3 of Cap Boosters. great idea! It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.16 22:34:00 - [106] Originally by: Flaming Butterfly Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Flaming Butterfly ... This is a terrible idea, look at it again and see what you did wrong. wow, your contribution to the discussion was so well constructed and illuminating. Check your Alliance ticker to see what you did wrong. Be constructive or be gone, troll. Try again. This time look at the two damage bonuses you gave to amarran ships, even ones that already have them, even ones that dont need them.
Karash Amerius Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.16 23:14:00 - [107] Guys, its not going to happen so quit bumping this useless thread... ...oh wait. Ex-Merc Blog
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.10.17 00:55:00 - [108] Make the Cap Bouns a special Bonus for Amarr Ships and add a second usefull bonus like Optimal/ROF/Tracking/Damage. Move 20-30% of the EM Damage of the Crystals to Termal. 60/40 EM/Thermal Ratio more like the 80/20 or 90/10 ratio now shold make it more usefull aganist Armor Tanks. Funny Idea: Boost Heat Sinks T2 from 10/10.5 to 15/15 Bonus and add +10% more Cap Use for Lasers to them. This way people could decide to use her Lows for superior Gank or Tank. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Berendas	Posted - 2007.10.17 02:33:00 - [109] To make up for the lack of creativity and the "Lets make theAmarr Caldari-wannabe's to make up for their shortcomings," approach; I propose CCP makes half of Caldari tech II ships laser boats.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.17 07:43:00 - [110] Here is a fun idea to boost :-p -Make lasers do rainbow damage. For each shot they switch damage type (lets face it there is no "real" scientific reason why lasers cant do any of the 4 damage types, try me and ill explain why)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.17 07:47:00 - [111] Originally by: ITTigerClawIK PS: i have not mentiond crysts that do kenetic dmg for one very good reason, LASERS DONT EXPLODE its an energy based weapon please remember that and CCP have made it clear already that it will not make such charges for lasers Actually EM beams can do kinetic and thermal damage too. EM rays can in physics be seen and have the effects of both a wave form AND particle (called photons). Photons have kinetic impact and anything that gets heated can potentially explode. Science is NOT a reason not to give crystals other damage types then EM and Thermal. Ive studied physics for 5 years in college, I knows methinks...
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.10.17 23:07:00 - [112] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: ITTigerClawIK PS: i have not mentiond crysts that do kenetic dmg for one very good reason, LASERS DONT EXPLODE its an energy based weapon please remember that and CCP have made it clear already that it will not make such charges for lasers Actually EM beams can do kinetic and thermal damage too. EM rays can in physics be seen and have the effects of both a wave form AND particle (called photons). Photons have kinetic impact and anything that gets heated can potentially explode. Science is NOT a reason not to give crystals other damage types then EM and Thermal. Ive studied physics for 5 years in college, I knows methinks... Who cares about physics in a game guys? I mean space isn't made out of liquid, projectiles have a flight time, and there is no way jita 4-4 can store the thousands of ships it has in it.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.18 00:15:00 - [113] Originally by: shinsushi Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: ITTigerClawIK PS: i have not mentiond crysts that do kenetic dmg for one very good reason, LASERS DONT EXPLODE its an energy based weapon please remember that and CCP have made it clear already that it will not make such charges for lasers Actually EM beams can do kinetic and thermal damage too. EM rays can in physics be seen and have the effects of both a wave form AND particle (called photons). Photons have kinetic impact and anything that gets heated can potentially explode. Science is NOT a reason not to give crystals other damage types then EM and Thermal. Ive studied physics for 5 years in college, I knows methinks... Who cares about physics in a game guys? I mean space isn't made out of liquid, projectiles have a flight time, and there is no way jita 4-4 can store the thousands of ships it has in it. I agree, but I dont like people using the "science" argument that EM cant do other damage types.

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