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Skilled Minmatar vs not so skilled Gallente

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Hul'ka Minmatar BALKAN EXPRESS	Posted - 2007.09.23 11:27:00 - [1] Ok, here's the deal: I’m a year and a half old character. I have Minmatar battleship lv5 and in few days Large autocannon specialization on lv4. For lv5 I’m going to need additional 31 day. Plus, 101 day to be able to fit t2 cruise missile (lv4) and supporting missile skills on lv5. Plus 86 days to be able to have t2 heavy drones. On the other hand Megathron - in 17 days I can have Gallente battleship on lv4, and Large hybrid on lv4. Gonna put t1 ogres in drone bay. Don’t need missile skils. Result: Tempest with all maxed skills: Volley damage: 1530 = 641DPS (366 from turrets, 64.7 from cruise launchers and 209.9 from drones) Megathron in 17 days: Volley damage: 2794 = 830 DPS (589 from turrets and 240 from drones) Not to mention additional low slot (better tank or better damage) No, I’m not saying boost Minmatar or nerf Gallente.. I just want an explanation why things are like they are.. Reasonable one, please..
ArmyOfMe hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.09.23 11:31:00 - [2] look at the dps with those skills rather then volly damage
slothe Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.09.23 11:31:00 - [3] i think your figures are wrong tbh. tempest artillery isnt about dps its about alpha strike.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.09.23 11:32:00 - [4] Yes we know, its such a hard life for a Minmatar pilot. When you get there its worth it though. Try flying Caldari and to some extents Amarr and then the realisation that it hasn't been worth it at all. Why are things like this? Dunno, it affords you more flexibility in your roles. Everyone has to train this crap eventually, minmatar pilots just have to do it a little sooner. [Balance] The Caldari problem.
Dotard	Posted - 2007.09.23 11:35:00 - [5] Because the Devs play Gallente? Just a wild guess there. Nerf You! Buff Me!
Guma Victims of Confusion	Posted - 2007.09.23 11:39:00 - [6] yep the megathron is a beast in close range combat even with bad skills. The problem here is that Minmatar have light and agile ships, thats why they get mostly splitted slot layouts on mids/lows. The only chance you have against the megathron ist your speed and stand out of webrange, if you get close and the megathron webs you prepare to safe your pod. The blaster-boats works great for close range combat but when they need to shoot on ranges they have problems. When you just look on your calculation and omgwtfdps situation you won't get any good results.
Rixsta Coreli Corporation Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.09.23 12:01:00 - [7] Edited by: Rixsta on 23/09/2007 12:01:41 I think the main reason for this is the fact that there's a fundemental difference in ship roles and ships strengths... Minmatar have never been the dps race, they make up for it in other ways, but in general they are the most flexible... this becomes a real benefit when you do have skill points to support it. But saying that they do have some ships that are quite flexible with little SP, Rupture, Rifter, Hurricane (to some extent), Typhoon too (in that you can fit it in about 7,000,000 ways) ... just comparing 2 ships over dps is the wrong way to compare ships, especially when minmatar are involved, as they'll always come out second best. It's like comparing a deimos' damage to a vagabond's damage (doesn't mean Deimos is better than the Vagabond)... the short and tall of it is that damage is only one aspect, and theres more than one aspect to PVP. -------------------------------
Hul'ka Minmatar BALKAN EXPRESS	Posted - 2007.09.23 12:19:00 - [8] Originally by: Guma yep the megathron is a beast in close range combat even with bad skills. The problem here is that Minmatar have light and agile ships, thats why they get mostly splitted slot layouts on mids/lows. The only chance you have against the megathron ist your speed and stand out of webrange, if you get close and the megathron webs you prepare to safe your pod. The blaster-boats works great for close range combat but when they need to shoot on ranges they have problems. When you just look on your calculation and omgwtfdps situation you won't get any good results. I didn't mention it, but Tempest is fitted with 6 650mm AC t2 and 2 cruise missile launchers, and mega with Mega modal Neutron Particle accelerator I. We have two types of combat – close range and long range. Close range will happen at gates and in asteroid belts, most likely while roaming in small gangs, and it always happens at ranges from 5-15 km. You can’t avoid being webbed. Long range is reserved for 0.0 and fleet battles. Not gonna go into this, for lack of experience for starters. Haven’t got the time to play with Amarr and Caldary ships so not gonna go there either. Gallente was hit with that nos nerf, but they are still out of balance, not only with Minmatars but from stories with other races as well. Originally by: Rixsta I think the main reason for this is the fact that there's a fundemental difference in ship roles and ships strengths... Minmatar have never been the dps race, they make up for it in other ways, but in general they are the most flexible... this becomes a real benefit when you do have skill points to support it, but saying that they do have some ships that are quite flexible with little SP, Rupture, Rifter, Hurricane (to some extent), Typhoon too (in that you can fit it in about 7,000,000 ways) ... just comparing 2 ships over dps is the wrong way to compare ships, especially when minmatar are involved, as they'll always come out second best. It's like comparing a deimos' damage to a vagabond's damage (doesn't mean Deimos is better than the Vagabond)... the short and tall of it is that damage is only one aspect, and theres more than one aspect to PVP. I don’t think they need to be mirror image ships, just different looking.. We are talking about year and a half of training versus half a year (new pilots) for ships that can’t be compared although they are same tire ship, and after all that training other still beats first one.. I has better tank and more firepower. Deimos vs Vaga – there I can say two same tier ships with different reles, for different strategies. And training times for those ships are similar, if not the same. Same goes for cruisers/frigates you mentioned. Is Tempest then only for fleet battles for his alpha strike? And Phoon is also dmg short in comparison with blastotron. Sure it’s versatile, you can fit it in a million ways. But, there was discussion about split weapon systems vs on weapon systems and tbh, one weapon system arguments won the case in my opinion.
Guma Victims of Confusion	Posted - 2007.09.23 12:46:00 - [9] Ok the description of a tempest: The Tempest is one of the Republic Fleet's key vessels; a versatile gunship proficient at long-range bombardment and capable of dishing out specialized types of damage with great effectiveness. A well-rounded squadron of Tempests has been proven time and time again to be an invaluable wild card in a fleet battle, one which opponents should ignore at their own peril. But anyway you can fit it short range too and it's not true that short range fights happens in 5-15km range. A vagabond is a short range ship and mostly attacks on 20km orbit, so as you see the navigation skills and other skills that the newcomer don't have helps you against being striked down. If you only pick the damage power of both races you can see that a blaster small, medium and large is the king of the hill for a short range weapon. The Problem with this is, that the most pilots tank the tempest like **** on armor coz they can use mids for cap injector,web scram... and are not able to get out of the range. But against a blasterthron its a very useless setup. This has nothing to do with the ship or gallente/minmatar, it's the fault of the player to get raped in close range combat, by a ship that is better suited for it.
E Vile	Posted - 2007.09.23 12:57:00 - [10] Projectiles and missles don't suck cap up like blasters/rails. I used to fit Projectiles on my passive shield tanked Myrmidon. Yea I am a Caldari pilot who passive shield tanked a Gallente ship using Minmater weapons. LOL "The key to immortality is to first live a life worth remembering."
Trishan Green Men Incorporated	Posted - 2007.09.23 13:08:00 - [11] Originally by: E Vile Projectiles and missles don't suck cap up like blasters/rails. I used to fit Projectiles on my passive shield tanked Myrmidon. Yea I am a Caldari pilot who passive shield tanked a Gallente ship using Minmater weapons. LOL So what? Blasters do more damage, and gallente ships have bigger caps. Rails have more dps, more range and better tracking than arty. And arty alpha, given the HP buff, isn't going to take you all that far either. Oh, and drones don't take cap either.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2007.09.23 13:23:00 - [12] Originally by: Guma Ok the description of a tempest: The Tempest is one of the Republic Fleet's key vessels; a versatile gunship proficient at long-range bombardment and capable of dishing out specialized types of damage with great effectiveness. A well-rounded squadron of Tempests has been proven time and time again to be an invaluable wild card in a fleet battle, one which opponents should ignore at their own peril. But anyway you can fit it short range too and it's not true that short range fights happens in 5-15km range. A vagabond is a short range ship and mostly attacks on 20km orbit, so as you see the navigation skills and other skills that the newcomer don't have helps you against being striked down. If you only pick the damage power of both races you can see that a blaster small, medium and large is the king of the hill for a short range weapon. The Problem with this is, that the most pilots tank the tempest like ** on armor coz they can use mids for cap injector,web scram... and are not able to get out of the range. But against a blasterthron its a very useless setup. This has nothing to do with the ship or gallente/minmatar, it's the fault of the player to get raped in close range combat, by a ship that is better suited for it. ship description doesn't mean anything expecially with the pest that have some troubles to fit 1400mm. if you look at fleet battles most of the time you see: tons of megas and a good mix of other ships; so is not that mega is specialized short range and pest long range as the gall ship is quite good even in fleets or as a sniper. said that the difference seem a bit high, i think it is so because you are comparing both ships whitout any dmg mods, in such situation drones dps is quite important and also, if you are comparing dmg with t1 ammos you have to consider that proj have a lower base damage. if you look at the dmg curve for gank oriented setup the difference is not so huge as these factors are not that important anymore. i also disagree that nos nerf was a gall nerf... it hit domi yes, but i think it hit more minnie ships that have more "free high slots" in the end imo ship using cap to fire their weapon got a good boost from that nerf as their cap is way more stable now and there is less risk to be nosed to death. if you are going to fly a "full tank setup" in gang (so no dmg mods) the phoon will be probably better at that (and a bit closer to the mega, even if you need tons of sps) instead if you are looking for gank+tank there is always the crappastrom... both ships are not that good but fill that role better than the pest that imo shines with a gank setup and full passive tank. Originally by:** Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Opinionated Git	Posted - 2007.09.23 13:26:00 - [13] Originally by: Guma The only chance you have against the megathron ist your speed and stand out of webrange, if you get close and the megathron webs you prepare to safe your pod. Yeah see, the whole 'But Minmatar are faster' arguement might have held some truth 12 months ago, but in todays game if a Hyperion pilot heats his web you can kiss your Tempest goodbye. You can counter heat web, but often those few extra seconds of momentum are enough for him to get into neutron optimal = death It seems at every turn, Gallente get boosted. Heat is hugely in favor of Gallente imho, as they do the most active tanking and can use heated webs/MWDs offensively whereas all other races use it defensively which sucks.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.09.23 13:29:00 - [14] Edited by: madaluap on 23/09/2007 13:30:02 Originally by: Guma Ok the description of a tempest: The Tempest is one of the Republic Fleet's key vessels; a versatile gunship proficient at long-range bombardment and capable of dishing out specialized types of damage with great effectiveness. A well-rounded squadron of Tempests has been proven time and time again to be an invaluable wild card in a fleet battle, one which opponents should ignore at their own peril. But anyway you can fit it short range too and it's not true that short range fights happens in 5-15km range. A vagabond is a short range ship and mostly attacks on 20km orbit, so as you see the navigation skills and other skills that the newcomer don't have helps you against being striked down. If you only pick the damage power of both races you can see that a blaster small, medium and large is the king of the hill for a short range weapon. The Problem with this is, that the most pilots tank the tempest like ** on armor coz they can use mids for cap injector,web scram... and are not able to get out of the range. But against a blasterthron its a very useless setup. This has nothing to do with the ship or gallente/minmatar, it's the fault of the player to get raped in close range combat, by a ship that is better suited for it. First of all, no descriptions mkay. "The typhoon has a unusual strong hull intregity for a minmatar vessel". That was the typhoon description for 2 years long. So just dont. These days blastersthrons are very slow cause you only see em with neutrons and plates. Your tempest is best to be activly armortanked and not plated, you are faster than a megathron + you use no cap on guns. The cap a megathron uses to fire is around 1 large armor repairer running fulltime. So capwise, you get a "free" armor repairer on your ship. All of this cap you can put into mwding (or even neuting!), so its very easy to keep range. Only problem you really have is staying inside 24 km. That said a decent neutron megathron is very dangerous and has **loads of HP. I think gallente is very succesful cause a lot of pilots tend to press "approach" and than think they will pwn. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.23 13:35:00 - [15] Originally by: Hul'ka Ok, here's the deal: IÆm a year and a half old character. I have Minmatar battleship lv5 and in few days Large autocannon specialization on lv4. For lv5 IÆm going to need additional 31 day. Plus, 101 day to be able to fit t2 cruise missile (lv4) and supporting missile skills on lv5. Plus 86 days to be able to have t2 heavy drones. On the other hand Megathron - in 17 days I can have Gallente battleship on lv4, and Large hybrid on lv4. Gonna put t1 ogres in drone bay. DonÆt need missile skils. Result: Tempest with all maxed skills: Volley damage: 1530 = 641DPS (366 from turrets, 64.7 from cruise launchers and 209.9 from drones) Megathron in 17 days: Volley damage: 2794 = 830 DPS (589 from turrets and 240 from drones) Not to mention additional low slot (better tank or better damage) No, IÆm not saying boost Minmatar or nerf Gallente.. I just want an explanation why things are like they are.. Reasonable one, please.. The trick is that autocannons are better at long range than Gallente Blasters, and better at short range than Amarran lasers[plus "olol" 70% Minmatar base EM resists] Add in that the tempest is fast, faster than even the Hyperion[fastest battleship blasterboat]. And it means that you can keep the blasterboats at a range where you do more damage to them[plus explosive damage is great] and where they can barely hit you. And it means you can get up close and personal with those amarran laser ships reducing their DPS due to tracking. Add in that the Tempest with Battleship 5 is arguably the best fleet sniper in the game and its a potent combination. P.S. take a look at the armor DPS of the Maelstrom with 800mm repeaters, Hail and 3 falloff rigs compared to a Hyperion. Its greater at all ranges[and the Mael can fit a HUGE tank if it decides not to tackle]
Opinionated Git	Posted - 2007.09.23 13:36:00 - [16] Originally by: madaluap I think gallente is very succesful cause a lot of pilots tend to press "approach" and than think they will pwn. Which is exactly why you see so many people cross training to Gallente, simply because they CAN press approach and pwn instead of pressing approach and getting pwned. If that makes sense.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.09.23 14:13:00 - [17] Originally by: Opinionated Git Originally by: madaluap I think gallente is very succesful cause a lot of pilots tend to press "approach" and than think they will pwn. Which is exactly why you see so many people cross training to Gallente, simply because they CAN press approach and pwn instead of pressing approach and getting pwned. If that makes sense. I prefer, orbit @ 12 km and load barrage tbh _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Guma Victims of Confusion	Posted - 2007.09.23 15:09:00 - [18] Edited by: Guma on 23/09/2007 15:10:56 Originally by: Opinionated Git Originally by: Guma The only chance you have against the megathron ist your speed and stand out of webrange, if you get close and the megathron webs you prepare to safe your pod. Yeah see, the whole 'But Minmatar are faster' arguement might have held some truth 12 months ago, but in todays game if a Hyperion pilot heats his web you can kiss your Tempest goodbye. You can counter heat web, but often those few extra seconds of momentum are enough for him to get into neutron optimal = death It seems at every turn, Gallente get boosted. Heat is hugely in favor of Gallente imho, as they do the most active tanking and can use heated webs/MWDs offensively whereas all other races use it defensively which sucks. A tempest pilot can overheat his mwd too and if he stays in a good range he don't need to fear the heat thing coz as someone also mentioned in this thread the most blasterthrons are heavy plated, but this has nothing to do with this thread. I think we should discuss why a unexperienced pilot with a blasterthron can win against a much better skilled tempest pilot coz this was asked. If he is unexperienced he has no heat option or use Null ammo while the experienced has these options. You guys in this thread just telling him how it can work coz pvp is not approach target and hit f1-f8. There are more options you have in a fight and not only the damage output of the guns. I'm sry that i posted the description of the ship but it was only an answer to a question before: "Is Tempest then only for fleet battles for his alpha strike? ?" - Yes, even the description tells it... The good thing a tempest has, is that you can put on very different setups with this slot layout and the enemy don't know what's on it...shield tank, armor, speed, ew??
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.23 15:31:00 - [19] No, only the Blaster boat is likly to be able to overload his web/mwd. Since these modules rely on not being used much to be viable canidates for overheating. I.E. you get in range and web the person. Its not as valuable to the one that is already faster unless they need it to escape.
Riho Magnificent Beavers Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.09.23 17:07:00 - [20] Originally by: Hul'ka I didn't mention it, but Tempest is fitted with 6 650mm AC t2 and 2 cruise missile launchers, and mega with Mega modal Neutron Particle accelerator I. wait... ur comparing tempsest whit second largest AC and mega whit neutrons..... and saying the mega does alot more dps.... WELL DOH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! fit tempest whit 800mm and you will get better numbers for it
Tammarr	Posted - 2007.09.23 17:29:00 - [21] Tempest: 6xbiggest ac you can fit with the rest of the following, 2xcruises/torps medium nos/neut etc 1xmwd, 1x heavy cap booster 1x web 1xscram 1xLARII 1xMARII or LARII depending on pg rig O_O, even a 1600mm plate, 2xEAMN 1xDC 1xGyro The secret key element to nail a mega? Stay out of webrange and your fifth midslot... hmm.. I wonder, perhaps a ... tracking disruptor.. yes tracking disruptor. Now take this and some decent piloting skills above the average 'approach/keep at optimal' and screw them over with barrage =)
Corwain Gallente Kamite	Posted - 2007.09.23 19:29:00 - [22] Another thing nobody has mentioned is the utility slot on the Tempest, put a web in that and you'll beat Megas even in webrange. Go into orbit at about 7-9km, dual web, keep at range=9km. -- A Solo Arbitrator vid, Distortion by Corwain
assassinator mkII	Posted - 2007.09.23 20:03:00 - [23] you can win every time in tempest vs thron. IF you know how to fight. if you just run up to the thron your gonna get your ass kicked because they do way more dps. witch is all of you guys way of fighting. you just have to stay out of there range its that simple. minmat gun have slightly smaler optum then the blasters. but the accuracy fallof is much much higher. so there is where you fight. they will mis wile you will hit. simple... nows where someone comes in and says webby blah blah. so web them back you will still go faster then them just cause your ship is faster. it requires much more skill in combat(not sp skill but acutly gameplay skill) but you can definatly kill throns.
Karyuudo Tydraad Caldari Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services	Posted - 2007.09.23 23:18:00 - [24] Originally by: assassinator mkII you can win every time in tempest vs thron. IF you know how to fight. if you just run up to the thron your gonna get your ass kicked because they do way more dps. witch is all of you guys way of fighting. you just have to stay out of there range its that simple. minmat gun have slightly smaler optum then the blasters. but the accuracy fallof is much much higher. so there is where you fight. they will mis wile you will hit. simple... nows where someone comes in and says webby blah blah. so web them back you will still go faster then them just cause your ship is faster. it requires much more skill in combat(not sp skill but acutly gameplay skill) but you can definatly kill throns. This, really. A tempest can just kite a blaster-boat in its falloff, especially with its extra mid-slot.
Alt 363	Posted - 2007.09.24 00:36:00 - [25] Originally by: assassinator mkII you can win every time in tempest vs thron. IF you know how to fight. if you just run up to the thron your gonna get your ass kicked because they do way more dps. witch is all of you guys way of fighting. you just have to stay out of there range its that simple. minmat gun have slightly smaler optum then the blasters. but the accuracy fallof is much much higher. so there is where you fight. they will mis wile you will hit. simple... nows where someone comes in and says webby blah blah. so web them back you will still go faster then them just cause your ship is faster. it requires much more skill in combat(not sp skill but acutly gameplay skill) but you can definatly kill throns. The range argument is ridiculous since a megathron with null still outdamages a barrage tempest up to past 20km (maybe even 24km I dont remember offhand). And tanks better. The much larger drone bay is a huge factor.
Karyuudo Tydraad Caldari Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services	Posted - 2007.09.24 01:35:00 - [26] Originally by: Alt 363 Originally by: assassinator mkII you can win every time in tempest vs thron. IF you know how to fight. if you just run up to the thron your gonna get your ass kicked because they do way more dps. witch is all of you guys way of fighting. you just have to stay out of there range its that simple. minmat gun have slightly smaler optum then the blasters. but the accuracy fallof is much much higher. so there is where you fight. they will mis wile you will hit. simple... nows where someone comes in and says webby blah blah. so web them back you will still go faster then them just cause your ship is faster. it requires much more skill in combat(not sp skill but acutly gameplay skill) but you can definatly kill throns. The range argument is ridiculous since a megathron with null still outdamages a barrage tempest up to past 20km (maybe even 24km I dont remember offhand). And tanks better. The much larger drone bay is a huge factor. I'm not buying it. Can I see your numbers regarding the dps of a megathron at 20-24km vs the Tempest with whatever ammunition it needs to hit at that range?
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.09.24 01:53:00 - [27] Blue Megathron: Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Overdrive Injector System II 100MN MicroWarpdrive II Heavy Capacitor Booster II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Faint Warp Prohibitor I Neutron Blaster Cannon II Neutron Blaster Cannon II Neutron Blaster Cannon II Neutron Blaster Cannon II Neutron Blaster Cannon II Neutron Blaster Cannon II Neutron Blaster Cannon II [empty high slot] Red (kindof) Tempest: Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Gyrostabilizer II 100MN MicroWarpdrive II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Warp Disruptor II Tracking Computer II Tracking Computer II 800mm Repeating Artillery II 800mm Repeating Artillery II 800mm Repeating Artillery II 800mm Repeating Artillery II 800mm Repeating Artillery II 800mm Repeating Artillery II Cruise Missile Launcher II Cruise Missile Launcher II From Tracking guide
Sojiuro	Posted - 2007.09.24 02:52:00 - [28] Minmatar have Vagabond and Rapier..... Is there nething else that needs to be said? xD
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.09.24 07:30:00 - [29] Originally by: Alt 363 The range argument is ridiculous since a megathron with null still outdamages a barrage tempest up to past 20km (maybe even 24km I dont remember offhand). And tanks better. The much larger drone bay is a huge factor. The dps difference in over web range is calculated in single digits, and even then it favours the pest. The big difference here comes from ship base resistances, since barrage deals explosive heavy damage, while null is thermal heavy. Base resist of 0.1 vs explosive vs base resist of 0.35 of thermal just means that the pest does significantly more effective dps... Drone bay outside of webrange is pretty meaningless tbg. They will be smoked and fast, if used... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
iiOs Blood Corsair's The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.24 07:40:00 - [30] Originally by: Laboratus Originally by: Alt 363 The range argument is ridiculous since a megathron with null still outdamages a barrage tempest up to past 20km (maybe even 24km I dont remember offhand). And tanks better. The much larger drone bay is a huge factor. The dps difference in over web range is calculated in single digits, and even then it favours the pest. The big difference here comes from ship base resistances, since barrage deals explosive heavy damage, while null is thermal heavy. Base resist of 0.1 vs explosive vs base resist of 0.35 of thermal just means that the pest does significantly more effective dps... Drone bay outside of webrange is pretty meaningless tbg. They will be smoked and fast, if used... right ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- BB

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