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Raven Torp Pilots: Planning for Rev III

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Schwigg Station Huggers Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.18 23:26:00 - [1] Having seen the direction that CCP is heading with torpedos on the test server, I'm not so sure that the Raven torpedo mission boat will be a viable option any more. The last I heard, with max skills and 3 velocity rigs, javelin torpedos will be unable to reach much beyond 40km. I'm pretty sure normal torpedos will wind up - again with max skills - reaching the low 30s. The Raven is such a slow beast that even with a 100MN AB installed in the mids, it still only crawls along at < 400m/s, which I'm not sure is going to be enough to close the distance quickly enough to make this a viable setup for completing missions quickly in deadspace. So, while others are fighting the devs and pushing for just a bit more range (and whether or not you agree with them is beyond the scope of this post), I thought I'd hope for the best and start to plan for the worst - from a PvE mission-running perspective. As I see it, mission runners will have a couple of options. I'm curious which direction other "professional" mission runners out there are going to head. Option 1: Stick with the Torp Raven This is the easiest option financially, as you can just keep most of your current equipment. However, this is most likely going to require setups with an afterburner in the mids which a) will take away from available slots for your tank and/or target painters and b) really start to hurt your cap. On the bright side, torpedos are getting a 25% boost to their RoF, so if you are able to close the gap, you're now spewing DPS out like never before. Option 2: Trade the Torps for Cruise This closely follows Option 1, in that most of your equipment (and your ship!) remain in your arsenal. However, using the "All Level V" character from EFT, just for a common comparison, the following happens to your missile DPS - comparing a standard-issue Raven with 3 BCUs and 'Arbalest' launchers: Raven w/ Torps: 557 DPS, 4692 Alpha Raven w/ Cruises: 405 DPS, 3128 Alpha DPS difference: 405/557 = 72.7% of torpedo DPS Alpha difference: 3128/4692 = 66.7% of torpedo alpha Now, before anyone argues that cruises hit smaller targets better, I run 2 target painters in my mids. Between those and my drones, which I use on frigates then cruisers, I don't have an issue with the smaller ships. Also, I included the alpha in the calculations because it can often mean the difference between 2 and 3-shotting your target, which leads to a significant time savings if you're managing your torps correctly. Option 3: Switch Ships I don't have too much experience in ships other than the Raven, mission speaking, though I've heard good things about the Dominix and Abaddon in particular. The Dominix, however, has the disadvantage of relying on drones for a large part of its damage. Drones have a reputation for sometimes causing havoc in missions. The Abaddon, on the other hand, really only shines against rats that are susceptible to EM and Thermal damage. For pilots without those skills, is it worth the training time for another race's ships and guns for PvE? [Continued below...] -Schwigg Founder, CEO of Station Huggers, Inc.
Schwigg Station Huggers Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.18 23:28:00 - [2] Unknowns: There are still some unknowns that could have an affect on any of the options above, mainly: 1. The torp range changes may not be final. If the torp range is increased, even just to 50km with skills, they may become a more appealing option. 2. Drone bandwidth. Depending on how drone bandwidth is implemented on current ships, it's possible that some battleships may see a nerf to their ability to deal with frigates in missions. 3. Marauders. It's possible, since we don't know the Marauder bonuses yet, that one of these new ships could wind up being the new alpha-ship for mission running. What's my plan? I'm going to continue on with my trusty siege launchers at present, while training Amarr battleships for the Abaddon as a backup plan. I've tried mission running with cruises before and like my brief math above shows, it's definitely had a negative affect on my mission running speed. If any of the Mauraders jumps out as a leader in the PvE department, I might be tempted to train in that direction. In other words, I'm stalling until I have more information from CCP, and perhaps some insight from fellow mission runners. What's your plan? -Schwigg Founder, CEO of Station Huggers, Inc.
Ahkii	Posted - 2007.10.19 00:08:00 - [3] So, what, you are worried about the range of torps now? Maybe drop some painters, make a tank? I think ccp is removing the 80k + torp snipe risk free mission runners have had for too long... "Now you must bring it, to get it...."
Schwigg Station Huggers Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.19 00:26:00 - [4] Originally by: Ahkii So, what, you are worried about the range of torps now? Not so much worried as looking to adapt. Their range is dropping to around 1/3 of their previous range, so I'm of the opinion that something's going to have to change. Originally by: Ahkii Maybe drop some painters, make a tank? My tank is fine. I'm not sure that the Raven's speed and mass (making an afterburner less effective) are going to help me get in range while in deadspace, though. This is why I was looking to brainstorm with fellow mission runners for a solution or two. Originally by: Ahkii I think ccp is removing the 80k + torp snipe risk free mission runners have had for too long... I wouldn't say "risk free", but it certainly was a powerful PvE ship. I would argue, though, that CCP is doing this to give Caldari pilots other options for PvP - the added DPS to torps in the next patch certainly doesn't make this a nerf across the board. You've approached my topic as if I'm whining about the torpedo changes. This was meant to be a constructive post about how we can adapt. There's a large number of torp-weilding mission runners out there, and I'd bet that a lot of them are looking at their options for the future. -Schwigg Founder, CEO of Station Huggers, Inc.
Toria Nynys Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.19 02:41:00 - [5] When you factor in t2 drone damage the gap between the cruise and torp raven shrinks a little, percentage wise. Also, with having to get within optimal of NPC megathron clouds to use your torps -- well, you will not be able to run a 3 BCU 4 slot tank setup. You'll be needing more tank, which means dropping down to 2 BCUs with t2 torp launchers. It's no secret that I'm a fan of cruise ravens for many reasons. But I am more worried about the Golem -- NPC defenders taking out one of my missiles out of 7 is one thing, but taking out one cruise out of 4 -- that's a whole different ball of wax. It's too early to tell. However, I'm fully capable of finishing any existing L4 with either Caldari, Minmatar or Gallente hardware. Less specialization and mission boats fitted for different regions may be the key here. A torp phoon may be viable where a torp raven is not, for example.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.10.19 04:52:00 - [6] If torp range remains as low as it currently is then they are not effective option for PvE (well some missions, but those are not that frequent to outweight disadvantage of short range to affect average mission running speed in positive manner). I usually run 2 CNR's, one with cruise and another with torps. As I think it's unlikely that torpedo range would be increased to levels where they would be effective in level 4 missions, then my torpedo specced pilot is training for cruise missiles as we speak. Taking all things into account it's not that huge slap on the wrist for missionrunners. We did get some pretty shinies in rev 2 patch like faction ammo and new hardwires, so dps wise we will end in the same ballpark as torpedo raven before rev 2 patch. My main character (this one) is also capable of flying, building (minus the not seeded skills ofc) and inventing caldary marauders, so should bonuses on them make them better than CNR then I would most likely switch to it also.
Ararius EP0CH Black Sun Cartel	Posted - 2007.10.19 09:52:00 - [7] Keep in mind, that npc ship ranges will have to be changed too. We wont be seeing npc ships out 50km + lobing torps at us will we? Because with new change, their torps wont even hit us ;D But untill I find the time to get T2 torps (go go javs) ill prolly be using cruise missiles. But a raven might get out a bit for some gankage Im ugly, just look at my face!
Crystalium Minmatar Infinite Improbability Inc	Posted - 2007.10.19 09:59:00 - [8] Huh .. sound stupid but i didn't even think about it .. and it's totally true ! Habitually, npc ships orbiting far are those who use torps, what will happen to them ?
Dahak2150 Chaos Monkeys Monkey Religion	Posted - 2007.10.19 10:46:00 - [9] Originally by: Ararius Keep in mind, that npc ship ranges will have to be changed too. We wont be seeing npc ships out 50km + lobing torps at us will we? Because with new change, their torps wont even hit us ;D NPCs have never played by the rules, I'd hardly count on this happening. ---------------- Originally by: "Cyberus" cause its has no sence anyway your brains is simply wont accept that anyway.
Sphynx Stormlord Gallente Anqara Tech	Posted - 2007.10.19 12:31:00 - [10] Another option might be to come to gallente space and hunt serpentis a bit more; their ships tend to close range and 40km is enough for almost all of them.
Dragon Lord Caldari InQuest Ascension R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.19 12:54:00 - [11] Edited by: Dragon Lord on 19/10/2007 12:55:05 Well currently on the test server npc torps rech me at 90kms so they definatly dont play by the rules. Still im testing cruise out, and i can get just over 700dps with implants faction and office bcus and faction launchers on my CNR. Currently i get over 1000dps with torps and with the changes id get 1350dps however my max range with javs is 36kms, when i worked out what my range should be it was more but i think theres some acceleration time for missiles. Anyway 700dps still melts any bs even the 2.5m bounty one and they do make mincemeat of anything smaller Edit: this is all before drone dps
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp.	Posted - 2007.10.20 20:25:00 - [12] For mission running, I already have cruise V, so I'm working towards the most likely skills the marauders will need. I do, however, have my gankaven already kitted out though _______________ Pwett CEO and Founder [QTC]QUANT Corp.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.10.21 17:56:00 - [13] Seeing how I already have Gal BS 5 (for Moros/Thanatos) I am looking at getting the Gallente Marauder for those missions that I cannot do in my Abaddon due to damage types. Very likely that it will work great against stuff weak to kin, which is pretty much all the stuff strong against EM. Also means I am one of the few people happy about the Gal Marauder looking to be a gunboat and not a drone boat. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
gabu Caldari United Warriors	Posted - 2007.10.21 22:12:00 - [14] everybody knows that Caladri is not much a PVP race and mostly its awful in solo PVP, so it compensate in PVE ,i don't understand this torpedo nerf ... instead of thinking about nerfing races u should think how to make this game work better , or better idea ..why don't u nerf EVE
Crazy Yuri Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.22 02:28:00 - [15] I have one character who has a Torp Raven and my other character flys a cruise/arty Typhoon. My Raven pilot would switch to cruise missiles. I would have to see what the final changes are first. I'm not going to waste a month of training to find out the devs changed their mind or left torps with enough range. We don't know the final stats of the T2 Battleships are. So I am sticking to my current plan until we know more about what (if any) changes happen to torps. I went with the Typhoon because there are enough missions with waves that make drone use annoying. The Typhoon flys really fast with AB so missions with gates 50km+ away don't seem so bad. If they nerf NPC torps range then the Phoon could easily sniper missions out of effective damage range of most NPCs. It handles missions just fine (if slower) than a cruise Raven. I could consider a Dominix for either of my characters. I have sentry drones but I haven't really trained the skill up much. An abaddon, Maelstrom, Tempest or Megathron would require a lot of gunnery training. So the Dominix or another Typhoon would be a possible choice. Who knows what other balancing the devs will do for Rev 3. So other than not training anything related to Torps I am going to stick with my current character plans.
duffmantt Dragonian Freelancers KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.22 09:48:00 - [16] I have always flown a t2 cruise raven for missions and find it perfectly fine. i tend to do missions while eatching tv ect. and cruise can handle everything, even frigates (eventually) so while missions take abit longer than usual by just shooting everything with cruise i find it great becuase i just fire and i can do other things whilst im missioning. If i cant do a Boss i switch to torps so that might be a slight problem with the changes but i'll have to see how it all pans out.
MuffinsRevenger EmpiresMod Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.10.22 10:44:00 - [17] My planing concisted of geting 7 CN cruises from the LP store ^_^
VLAD DRACU Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.10.29 22:49:00 - [18] my plan is to stick to siege; it's a matter of pride. those circle blasts make the difference
Commander Prishe Caldari The LoneStar Corp Edge Of Sanity	Posted - 2007.10.30 00:23:00 - [19] My Caldari Navy Raven Cruise Setup 7 X Caldari Navy Cruise Launchers 1 X Drone Link Augmentor 1 X Caldari Navy X-Large Shield Booster 1 X Caldari Navy Shield Booster Amp 3 X Caldari Navy Active Hardeners (types depending on the mission) 1 X T2 Cap Recharger 3 X Caldari Navy Ballistic Control Units 2 X T2 Power Diagnostics Max damage per missile on a BS hull is 503 (alpha of 3521 damage I guess) Rate of Fire is 7.23 Seconds - almost a constant stream of cruise missiles (love watching constant stream of them tear up a BS. Anyway im very happy with cruises, I prefer haveing low rate of fire and faster missile velocity compared to the exact oposite from torps. With cruise missiles to level 5 (currently only 3) and a 5% hardwiring I think i should be able to hit over 550 dmg per missile, and with max RoF skills and BS level 5 about 6.70 RoF. Can finish Guristas Extravaganza + bonus room in 50 mins and there is a lot of BS on that mission, have no trouble on any missions with cruises to be honest and ive done over 200 levels 4s.. Cruises are fine.. dont worry about there DPS and just forget torps if CCP wants to nerf there range. Only thing that sucks here is people with maxed torp skills may have to train cruise skills now. I can understand that sucks (glad my torp skill is level 1)
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.10.30 05:20:00 - [20] Originally by: Commander Prishe My Caldari Navy Raven Cruise Setup Max damage per missile on a BS hull is 503 (alpha of 3521 damage I guess) Rate of Fire is 7.23 Seconds - almost a constant stream of cruise missiles (love watching constant stream of them tear up a BS. With cruise missiles to level 5 (currently only 3) and a 5% hardwiring I think i should be able to hit over 550 dmg per missile, and with max RoF skills and BS level 5 about 6.70 RoF. Cruise is not THAT bad, they are just not as good as torps currently. After change you will however have better speeds in missions with cruise. You can get around 6.2 sec RoF and 670 damage per hit with hardwires and good skills plus faction ammo and 4 navy BCU's. Similar setup with torps currently would do silghtly under 1000 damage per shot with RoF around 7 sec so it's easy to see why torps are currently better. For cruise raven I would prefer T2 tank + 4x BCU and Signal Amp II in lows but it's matter of preferrenrce. I'm using afterall heavy cap injector also in missions to fuel my tank (as I find that I don't need to permatank, it's enough to last thru mission without warpouts) whats somewhat unorthodox approach.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.10.30 09:21:00 - [21] Yes, a faction fitted CNR with cruises is alright, even dps wise. A regular T2 fitted Cruise Raven still looks weak compared to Domi and Abaddon/Geddon. Faction fitted Domi will outdamage faction CNR with Thermal and some Kinetic. Amarr will outdamage it with EM and Thermal. CNR has range and selectable damage types as it's advantages. It loses very little when switching away from thermal, since Valkyries still do some 120dps compared to Hammerheads doing 150. I'm still on the fence whether to get the CNR or go back to my Domi after the torp change hits.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.10.30 10:04:00 - [22] Out damaging ships on paper does not equate to actual faster mission completion time however. Domi problem is that it's actual dps drops considerably when your drones will need to start traveling more than 20 km. Note also that on test server scooped up drones no longer regenerate their shield. Amarr problem is usually unsuitable damage types. They can actually run some missions faster than CNR against bloods and drone battleship heavy drone missions. Currently CNR is the most 'universal' missionrunner giving the best average mission completion time over all missions your agent throws at your way. It's possible to get even better personal average by using Amarr ship for drone/blood missions but that assumes that you have rather good skills for both lasers and missiles to use both ships in effective way.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.10.30 11:08:00 - [23] My good man, this is the age of the Sentry drone Forget those old Ogres, bring on the Gardes. (Also available for Geddon, if someone else takes care of the little NPCs. 1 omni + Drone scope rig gets you 40km optimal with GardeII's. Incidentally, CN 425's have an optimal of 39 with AM. Gal 425's with 1 repub tracking comp have optimal of 40 with AM. Or if you wish, 3x Omnis get's you 45km optimal with 0.565 tracking with GardeII's. 90km and 0.018 with Bouncer II's. 110km optimal with Wardens. Gunnery skills at 4. Nothing can match the damage output versatility and range of the Cruise CNR, but within their own limited sectors, both Domi and AbaGeddon seem to outdamage it. Optimally, I'd use CNR for Angels and some longrange missions, AbaGeddon for Blood/Sansha and Domi for Guri/Serp. That's a best guess at this point at least, since I can't actually fly Amarr BS yet, nor do I have a CNR.
Goldis Caldari Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.30 11:58:00 - [24] While the torp raven was just a bit faster, you will not find a cruise raven lacking. I've been running missions with cruise missiles ever since I got a raven, and had no problems so far. The numbers tell you very little before you try them in the field. ---- De Gustibus et Coloribus non disputandum est.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:39:00 - [25] Originally by: Goldis While the torp raven was just a bit faster, you will not find a cruise raven lacking. I've been running missions with cruise missiles ever since I got a raven, and had no problems so far. The numbers tell you very little before you try them in the field. You might well be right. Just in case I'm misunderstood, I do have a Raven and some Navy Cruise launchers & BCU's, even a couple Navy large Rails to go with them. The issue isn't whether there are problems completing lvl 4's, it's whether another ship/setup can do the job better. With the present torp the CNR was it, but after the changes I think it it will be outdone in some missions.
Aprudena Gist Caldari Capital Development and Security Industries	Posted - 2007.10.30 19:20:00 - [26] Edited by: Aprudena Gist on 30/10/2007 19:20:18 Originally by: Qui Shon Originally by: Goldis While the torp raven was just a bit faster, you will not find a cruise raven lacking. I've been running missions with cruise missiles ever since I got a raven, and had no problems so far. The numbers tell you very little before you try them in the field. You might well be right. Just in case I'm misunderstood, I do have a Raven and some Navy Cruise launchers & BCU's, even a couple Navy large Rails to go with them. The issue isn't whether there are problems completing lvl 4's, it's whether another ship/setup can do the job better. With the present torp the CNR was it, but after the changes I think it it will be outdone in some missions. Well it shouldn't plain out be the best ship anyways hence the nerf but its still the best missile ship there is.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2007.10.30 19:23:00 - [27] im going to argue it all has to do with how they rescript the missions. unless its still cool for npcs to shoot torps at 100km+.....
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2007.10.30 20:03:00 - [28] Originally by: Qui Shon ..., but after the changes I think it it will be outdone in some missions. But isn't that the case now? I mean, I'd MUCH rather use my Harbinger for drone \ blood \ sansha missions. _______________ Pwett CEO and Founder [QTC]QUANT Corp.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.10.30 22:35:00 - [29] Edited by: Qui Shon on 30/10/2007 22:36:28 Harbinger? A BC? Really? You think 7 medium turrets beat 7 torp launchers and 25m3 more drone space? Do you have another ship taking care of battleships and long range targets? I can see the case for Beam Abaddon/Geddon, but a BC seems a stretch to me. Perhaps in the missions with mostly frigs and cruisers?
J Valkor Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.10.31 02:37:00 - [30] I thought that the travel time for Torps was being cut to a third of what it is now. Is that true?

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