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Where's the skill in PVP?

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EinaruS Rage Academy oooh Shiny	Posted - 2007.10.20 14:07:00 - [61] pvp is skillfree it's true! - A finger...especially the middle one, is worth more than any amount of isk
Stakhanov Katana's Edge	Posted - 2007.10.20 14:21:00 - [62] It is common knowledge that us pirates have no skills. We gank defenseless targets and only engage in fights we are sure to win and survive. We do this all day because we don't have the skills to do anything else. The reason antipirates rarely bother us is that they don't like to lower themselves to no-skills fights. True story Originally by: F'nog One does not simply log into Jita.
Snake Doctor Paradox v2.0	Posted - 2007.10.20 14:30:00 - [63] Originally by: Industrial Witch Okay I've heard a few people say that PVP is all about the 'skill' and not about the ship/character, however it looks to me that pretty much all combat is like this: 1 - Orbit Target 2 - Switch modules on 3 - AFK a bit 4 - Better ship wins No where's the skill in any of that? Unless of course when people refer to skill they mean the skill of setting up the better ship? Because that 'skill' is pretty limited frankly - it's far more to do with who has the most ISK and better trained (aka older) character. So if anyone out there has a specific example of genuine skill winning a combat I'd like to see it please, because I don't believe it makes a a jot of difference. It seems to me, even after only a little while playing EVE that this is a major problem that causes all sorts of other things. 'Better ship always wins' means that newer players have to buy ISK to get the better ship and stand a chance against the older players 'Worst death penalty in any MMO' means that all players have to buy ISK to deal with the constant attrition Players buying ISK means that macro farmers are rife Macro farmers everywhere means that prices go up High prices means that players buy more ISK and bingo! you have a spiralling ecomony My suggestions: Make insurance replace your entire ship plus modules plus cargo at only a 10-20% cost payable when they are replaced Make pod killing a CONCORD response crime in high and lowsec space regardless of war declarations Remove auto repeat ability from modules to make players actually have to press the keys occasionally No, no, no, and no. This post is written with fail. You've obviously never killed a domi with a hawk. Rifter Flight Manual!
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0	Posted - 2007.10.20 14:34:00 - [64] Thread makes me giggle like a little girl. Paradox V2.0 is recruiting!
Faith Black Minmatar Rolls Roids	Posted - 2007.10.20 14:42:00 - [65] When it comes to skill points: Many gangs have low and high skillpoint pilots mixed. We've got players in our corp from the 3 months old newbie to vets with 60mil+ SP. They fly together. If you meet another gang mixed like that, which is not untypical, then it's not really a big issue for the newbie. It's not like he would be primary, gets killed and the vets survive. The gang wins together or loses together. If it was vets vs. newbies in even numbers, it would be an issue. But EVE is not vets vs. newbies, and where it is, it is not limited to fighting even numbers. Newbies partitipate in killing vets with 10-20 times more skillpoints and ships that cost 100-times more. 1-on-1, newbie in crap ship vs. vet in super-duper ship, engage, click some buttons, lose ... who cares, that's not typical eve pvp.
citizen amarr33sd3g4	Posted - 2007.10.20 14:55:00 - [66] industrial witch what you need to do is get yourself 10 friends that will come whenever you fight 1 person or more and then you can win by the tactic of numbers, that never fails in EVE.
Snake Doctor Paradox v2.0	Posted - 2007.10.20 15:10:00 - [67] Originally by: Sokratesz Thread makes me giggle like a little girl. Pshh. you ARE a little girl... yman. Rifter Flight Manual!
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.20 15:21:00 - [68] Op is funny. Sounds like a recipe for instant death and nothing else Random Goon - 'Why don't you kickbox me about it, after your dad has killed himself of course'
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.20 15:44:00 - [69] Originally by: Chromakey Dreamcoat Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 20/10/2007 11:13:40 Your all caining this guy but theres more then an element of truth in what he says. Baring a) 2v1/3v1/4v1 ganks b) huge idiotic gaffs from a pilot Skill points, and in particular specializations in skill points mean a LOT in the outcome of any PVP battle. If im in the same ship with the same setups as a 2 mill skill point guy im going to win because i have 25% more shield 25% more armor 25% more structure 30% more damage 50% more drone damage 25% more cap etc. If im fighting in the same setup with a guy with the same SP as me and ive splashed out on guicci faction fits im going to win because I have 20% more damage etc etc. ITs also true that the battle is often won on how you setup your ship. Most of learned 'pvp' skills is knowing what a ships weakness are and whether you should do a bunk back to the gate or duke it out The rabid responses from the skillpoint rich players show somewhat that people like to think they are uber pvp'ers - when in fact they win a lot of fight because they got 20% advantage over the other guy due to paying CCP their cash for a longer period of time. SKUNK Unlike the other rabid fanboy responses this post made more sense than most I've read on these forums. No, no it doesn't. In my year and a half of EVE "all except for 1 month have been in 0.0" I have yet to fight someone with the exact same ship and setup, under the same exact terms &circumstances. Nor do I ever expect to fight someone in the same ship & setup in the same circumstances. Skills give 20-30% bonuses, the right tactics and ship knowledge give +10,000% bonuses ___________ Desolacer> Who the heck gives YOU the right to ruin it for others buy blowing them up. Zaqar> CCP
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.20 15:47:00 - [70] I repeat the argument that came into my mind and I just edited into my first post: The so called ebayers prove the OP wrong that pvp is just about good char, good ship, pressing some buttons, go afk. They have a talent to lose their ships. Guess everyone would love to engange an expensive fleet of ebayers, who bring out their toys and think they just need to click some buttons and win. ( remember though: ebaying not allowed )
Astronoe Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.20 15:50:00 - [71] This thread is NOT delivering... The PvP system in Eve is far better than most MMO's. 200+ people combat situation is nowhere else to be found. cheers
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.20 15:58:00 - [72] as the official rater of trolls I give this thread a 5/10 average, could have been better I'm currently involved in medical research, concerning the therapuetic aspects of a swift kick in the rear What do zombies and forum posters have in common? They like to sit about and moan!
Stein Voorhees Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.10.20 16:00:00 - [73] Check out www.agony-unleashed.com and learn the basics of PVP. It isn't quite as 'Simple' as you may think....
MITSUK0	Posted - 2007.10.20 16:12:00 - [74] Examples of skill in combat from personal experience: Flying a close range inty in a dogfight vs a long range inty. You have to manually fly your ship, time your overloads and micromanage your cap in order to catch for example a crow with your taranis. Predicting where his orbit will take him and ajusting to that, time it right and you land the web. Also "scissoring" where you use rapid speed and direction changes to break orbit. Flying a cruiser that uses autocannons (only ones I have flown a lot). It takes skill and knowledge to effectively use them. You need to hold blaster boats outside of there optimal but within your own falloff. When you fight laser/missle boats you have to close range and hold it. You have to decide at the start of the fight wether you focus fire his drones or if you can tank them long enough to down him. Many more situations where you have to adapt your tactics to win. Tackling and bubbling in large gangs. As a tackler you will often have a large distance to cover where if you dont keep transversal up you get popped. You have to predict where you need to be to make the tackle on the right person at the right time. Flying a dictor you have to make snap calls on where and when you drop your bubbles. **** it up and grats you just got your whole gang ganked. Flying drone boats requires a ton of micromanagement to be truly effective. You have to handle scoop launching your drones, your cap booster, your reps aswell as your engagement range which is small as your typically using blasters. All the time while you are fighting in any ship you need to assess and re-assess the situation. Is your tank failing, is his tank failing, does he have backup, is he trying to run, is he using ewar, do I need to close the gap ect ect ect. It takes skill to know when you can hang in for the kill and when it is time to GTFO. I could go on (and on and on) but I have a pub to attend, beer to drink and world cup champions to cheer on ;)
Industrial Witch Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2007.10.20 17:00:00 - [75] Edited by: Industrial Witch on 20/10/2007 17:01:26 Originally by: Adunh Slavy Skills in Eve are not of a tactile nature. Anyone can hit little buttons and sit back and watch the results. Skill for Eve is knowledge of how the game works and information. Skills in Eve are manifested in a famous Sun Tzu quote, I say: Know your enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles, you will never be defeated. When you are ignorant of the enemy but know yourself, your chances of winning or losing are equal. If ignorant both of your enemy and of yourself, you are sure to be defeated in every battle. -- Sun Tzu Or more to the point, ôHe who knows when he can fight and when he cannot will be victorious.ö I do love a good Sun Tzu quote and it gets across what I was trying to get at - that there seems to be little skill in actual combat and far more in the decision to engage in combat. Which, as Adunh points out, technically would be strategy (do I fight?) skills as opposed to tactical (how do I fight?) skills. As a low skill point low ISK character the decision as to wether or not to engage in combat is invariably not - because defeat is inevitable - and who wants to start a fight when there is no chance of winning? Some of you may not realise that this is a game and games are for enjoyment - where's the enjoyment in waiting and paying for years so that you can have a chance of winning in PVP? On the ecomomic matters I notice that at least one of the people posting 'STFU' flames was boasting in other threads about having 6 alt accounts and never paying for them - presumably because he sells ISK for GTC - people like that are part of the problem. Lastly, if someone can explain to me how a 2m SP character with 100m ISK can defeat a three year old character in a HAC I'll be glad to take back everything I've said about PVP 'skill' but until then I'm sticking to my point. -
Lastdon	Posted - 2007.10.20 18:34:00 - [76] Well OP I agree with you. 1. Solo PVP really doesn't happen in this game. For those of you who say it does are talking out the side of your mouth. Who probably run at least 2 clients at the same time. Which alone shows there isn't much to the combat in this game. 2. The big sell in this game from the get go was the economic system which was a lot more promising then what it really is. Why do I say that, because every one has the same items, equipment, and ships. CCP did away with reverse engineering which in my mind was a great idea for a video game based on one sole currency. 3. Alot of people stick with this game hoping for a big break through in gaming which won't happen. The EVE engine is to old and in 2 years will not be worth updating. I don't mean the graphics engine that CCP keeps preaching about. Which will most likely not do much but change the color of the explosions from blue to green. 4. Just remember the Key to being successful in eve is blobbing. Lock, Shot, Tank, If hit with EW wait. The combat in this game requires very limited know how, just the know how of setups!!!!!
Arenis Xemdal Amarr	Posted - 2007.10.20 18:53:00 - [77] You have to wonder how somebody can come onto these forums preaching for a PvP nerf and not expect to get flamed. Some things are just so obvious that it begs the question, idiot or troll?
Faith Black Minmatar Rolls Roids	Posted - 2007.10.20 19:34:00 - [78] Originally by: Lastdon 4. Just remember the Key to being successful in eve is blobbing. Lock, Shot, Tank, If hit with EW wait. The combat in this game requires very limited know how, just the know how of setups!!!!! Only, because the game performs bad with real blobs, so outnumbered fighting like warp in, kill one or two targets, warp out, don't really work well against blobs. After warping in, you get the low fps/lag hammer and before you can navigate and target, the blob is already ripping you apart. Same with fast ships under those conditions, you can't really navigate and have trouble to fly, where you want to fly, so complex manouvers aren't really possible. If the game loaded and reacted always as fast as in 10-man fights, a big fight would also be fun and leave room for more than just targetting and pressing F1...F8.
Ackaroth D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.20 21:12:00 - [79] "Where is the skill in PVP?" Not sure. I haven't found any yet. I'm sure my corp/alliance mates can attest to this.
Ebodhisatva Gallente hunter killers	Posted - 2007.10.20 21:25:00 - [80] Edited by: Ebodhisatva on 20/10/2007 21:27:28 Edited by: Ebodhisatva on 20/10/2007 21:25:06 The skill is in, HOW big is your fleet That's it, pure and only IS Your Fleet Bigger Than The target. That's IT No More Edit: Skills count up Together Spread towards what you can do yourself, tackle, and BASH (DPS) Originally by: CCP Prism X You wont have any LPs. You need LPs with said Corp and like I said I just nuked your LPs.
Ebodhisatva Gallente hunter killers	Posted - 2007.10.20 21:34:00 - [81] So if you have a 30 party corp, the first you could encounter is a 3 party member of a big alliance you might win they regroup and get a 10 party encounter you loose... then you regroup with some friends, make sure you regroup with 40 ppl you encounter a 200 ppl encounter you win they regroup something like RA with 4 Motherships and a Titan You loose... You, Like me wonder what to do next, like anyone in here... and stay flabbergasted Or is there anyone that stood up against 4 motherships and a Titan here huh? And yes that I read and seen in forums and killboards... Originally by: CCP Prism X You wont have any LPs. You need LPs with said Corp and like I said I just nuked your LPs.
Twin blade Minmatar The Triangle Exa Nation	Posted - 2007.10.20 21:40:00 - [82] Edited by: Twin blade on 20/10/2007 21:42:43 The only skill in pvp is been able to get a bigger gang befor the enemy can. The best pvp day's was early after the beta when people was not sure what the other ship would have on and made fight's great as you could not tell who was gona win form the start unlike now. Now all pvp is we got a bigger gang if yes lets pwn them if not OMG run away. !
Jeanne Deveroux	Posted - 2007.10.20 21:54:00 - [83] Eve pvp, although somewhat simplistic, is still way better than any other MMORPG.At least , it's not 'OMFG my special ability #12354546 is ready to use !'
Ebodhisatva Gallente hunter killers	Posted - 2007.10.20 21:59:00 - [84] Originally by: Twin blade Edited by: Twin blade on 20/10/2007 21:42:43 The only skill in pvp is been able to get a bigger gang befor the enemy can. The best pvp day's was early after the beta when people was not sure what the other ship would have on and made fight's great as you could not tell who was gona win form the start unlike now. Now all pvp is we got a bigger gang if yes lets pwn them if not OMG run away. Totally True! And when outnumbered and Truly Outnumbered, Like 400 against 800 will crash your game, and you both loose... And THAT is what this game is all about in the end. They never had a solution to that problem, and I have to say, I wouldn't have it neither... Originally by: CCP Prism X You wont have any LPs. You need LPs with said Corp and like I said I just nuked your LPs.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.10.21 13:54:00 - [85] Originally by: DubanFP Originally by: Chromakey Dreamcoat Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 20/10/2007 11:13:40 Your all caining this guy but theres more then an element of truth in what he says. Baring a) 2v1/3v1/4v1 ganks b) huge idiotic gaffs from a pilot Skill points, and in particular specializations in skill points mean a LOT in the outcome of any PVP battle. If im in the same ship with the same setups as a 2 mill skill point guy im going to win because i have 25% more shield 25% more armor 25% more structure 30% more damage 50% more drone damage 25% more cap etc. If im fighting in the same setup with a guy with the same SP as me and ive splashed out on guicci faction fits im going to win because I have 20% more damage etc etc. ITs also true that the battle is often won on how you setup your ship. Most of learned 'pvp' skills is knowing what a ships weakness are and whether you should do a bunk back to the gate or duke it out The rabid responses from the skillpoint rich players show somewhat that people like to think they are uber pvp'ers - when in fact they win a lot of fight because they got 20% advantage over the other guy due to paying CCP their cash for a longer period of time. SKUNK Unlike the other rabid fanboy responses this post made more sense than most I've read on these forums. No, no it doesn't. In my year and a half of EVE "all except for 1 month have been in 0.0" I have yet to fight someone with the exact same ship and setup, under the same exact terms &circumstances. Nor do I ever expect to fight someone in the same ship & setup in the same circumstances. Skills give 20-30% bonuses, the right tactics and ship knowledge give +10,000% bonuses Meh your being flippant here. Stick a one month old pilot in any BS and put it up against my BS and I will pwn him. Because of my huge PvP experience? Nope. Ill web the guy stick some drones on him and sit repairing my tanke untill he dies. He will web me - wack on his guns and rep himself as best he can. Ill win becauuse ill start with a good 50% advantage over him in terms of damage, hitpoints, repping time and cap cost, cap battery, cpu and grid fitting needs, jamming percentage success rate etc etc etc etc Ive got these advantages purely because ive been playing longer then he has. He could get a veteran player to set his ship up and explain his ships weakness and strengths - ill still pwn him 99 times out of 100 SKUNK
Fuazzole	Posted - 2007.10.21 14:00:00 - [86] A fish killing another fish goes... bite, wiggle wiggle, victim fish dies. Put a little fish in a pond with lots of big fish Little fish "can" kill a big fish, but how? the above rule looks quite suicidal. Thier's more than meets the eye in EvE PvP, most of which is sickological(speeling) warfare. eg. most fish are smart enuf not to fall for bait
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.10.21 14:15:00 - [87] did you watch the allaince tournments? both teams have equal skills and ship points. there is a lot of skill and you never know who is going to win before a fight. due to skill bob got 3 bil isk worth of ship destroyed by 30 mil worth of ships. explain that one. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP need...more room...
Savant Hayt	Posted - 2007.10.21 14:21:00 - [88] Worst troll ever. Too bad you people already gave it enough food to live a thousand winters.
Endaros System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.21 14:24:00 - [89] A wise man (well... a Danish man) once told me (or at least had in his sig): Whether you win in PvP is based on: 20% Skills 30% Ship and Fitting 50% Knowing what the eff you're doing! And he's right... If you know what you're doing in PvP, you'll win a hell of a lot more fights than if you base it solely on money. Granted a Vagabond will beat everything, but meh!
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.10.21 14:26:00 - [90] Originally by: MotherMoon did you watch the allaince tournments? both teams have equal skills and ship points. there is a lot of skill and you never know who is going to win before a fight. due to skill bob got 3 bil isk worth of ship destroyed by 30 mil worth of ships. explain that one. Small gang battles do indeed require skill - but the battle you mentioned was won before it started on papaer. The selection of ships won it. After that it was a case of delpoy drones - mwd - orbit - shoot. I suspect they had a pre aranged primary / secondary/ tertiary target already worked out. Did this require any particular skill on behalf of the pilots? SKUNK

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