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Where's the skill in PVP?

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Kane Rizzel NovaKane Incorporated Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.10.20 11:05:00 - [31] Originally by: Last Firefly hi... i'm pretty new to eve (only played for about a month). from my point of view the op is talking about a 1v1 combat. but the way i see it is that the real action / skill comes in place when we talk about group combat. (little excursion) i'm coming form guild wars and talking about 1v1 combat in this game is...well...nonsense. in gw the real skill comes into play with team play. that includes: - analysing & understanding the enemies team and their tactic - communictaion - synergy between your teams classes - movement - adapting to certain situations - target switching - and so on. but you know what.. if you break that down to your pvp example in eve (1vs1), it sounds pretty simple as well: click on target, activate your skills, the better skill setup wins. but thats only half of the story (or even less), and that pretty much holds as well (from what i see and hear) in eve. but form the replies here i have the impression that a 1vs1 combat in eve can be very complicated and take skill as well. the only combat experience i have to date is fighting npc enemies, and even there i have to take a loooot of things into account if i dont want do die ^.^ I fly solo all the time and most of my encounters are 1v1 or 1vBlob. Being a succesful 1v1 pilot takes a lot more skill and intuition than flying in a gang (I used to be in a 0.0 corp involved in numerous wars so this is what I'm basing my opinion on) Originally by: High Sierra note to self: dont ever say anything to anyone on the internet about anything ever again.
Sol Halcon Minmatar Certa Cito - Swift and Sure	Posted - 2007.10.20 11:07:00 - [32] What I think the OP is referring to by "skill" is the twitch gaming involved in other flight games like Jumpgate, or Vendetta online. In these games keeping your foe under a cross hair, while he jinks and dodges your lasers or bullets is the object. I see it like this: Those games are basketball, while EVE is chess.
Kane Rizzel NovaKane Incorporated Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.10.20 11:10:00 - [33] Originally by: Sol Halcon I see it like this: Those games are basketball, while EVE is chess. using that analogy I think you'd find that chess is a lot more skill intensive, where as with basketball, if you're tall, well, that's pretty much an advantage to begin with. Everyone wants to be like Mike Originally by: High Sierra note to self: dont ever say anything to anyone on the internet about anything ever again.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.20 11:11:00 - [34] More like Counterstrike vs Master of Orion _ 1\|2\|3
E Vile Fifth Exiled Legion SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.20 11:11:00 - [35] Edited by: E Vile on 20/10/2007 11:15:39 1 - Orbit Target 2 - Switch modules on 3 - AFK a bit 4 - Better ship wins Represents you have no idea how to pvp. Skill is needed for every aspect from setup, to entering into the engagement to your advantage, to the engagement itself. You will not do well in pvp if that list is your idea of how to pvp. ISK in NO way promises a win. I have seen people pull some very nice tactics and win with some cheap setups. As for solo taking more tactics then fleets...that I would disagree with. I would say both in different ways. Fleets are no easy task keeping your assets in best position among keeping the gang itself together. Communication and teamwork is no easy task. Solo has all it's own difficulties. Maybe WOW is a better game for you.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.10.20 11:13:00 - [36] Edited by: Le Skunk on 20/10/2007 11:13:40 Your all caining this guy but theres more then an element of truth in what he says. Baring a) 2v1/3v1/4v1 ganks b) huge idiotic gaffs from a pilot Skill points, and in particular specializations in skill points mean a LOT in the outcome of any PVP battle. If im in the same ship with the same setups as a 2 mill skill point guy im going to win because i have 25% more shield 25% more armor 25% more structure 30% more damage 50% more drone damage 25% more cap etc. If im fighting in the same setup with a guy with the same SP as me and ive splashed out on guicci faction fits im going to win because I have 20% more damage etc etc. ITs also true that the battle is often won on how you setup your ship. Most of learned 'pvp' skills is knowing what a ships weakness are and whether you should do a bunk back to the gate or duke it out The rabid responses from the skillpoint rich players show somewhat that people like to think they are uber pvp'ers - when in fact they win a lot of fight because they got 20% advantage over the other guy due to paying CCP their cash for a longer period of time. SKUNK
Sol Halcon Minmatar Certa Cito - Swift and Sure	Posted - 2007.10.20 11:14:00 - [37] Originally by: Kane Rizzel Originally by: Sol Halcon I see it like this: Those games are basketball, while EVE is chess. using that analogy I think you'd find that chess is a lot more skill intensive, where as with basketball, if you're tall, well, that's pretty much an advantage to begin with. Everyone wants to be like Mike My point exactaly.
Lord Evangelian Gallente LEAP Corp	Posted - 2007.10.20 11:20:00 - [38] Originally by: Industrial Witch 1 - Orbit Target 2 - Switch modules on 3 - AFK a bit 4 - Better ship wins LOL try telling that to the noobin a dread that poped by a groupe of 20 Pirates becuase he bought ISK. and a char and didnt have experience to know to jump out, or to call in backup. haha. >RESERVED FOR LINK< -----------------------------------------------------
Serious Rikk Pangalactic Aquisitions	Posted - 2007.10.20 11:25:00 - [39] Originally by: Industrial Witch 4 - Better ship wins No, better pilot wins. Quote: 'Better ship always wins' means that newer players have to buy ISK to get the better ship and stand a chance against the older players 'Worst death penalty in any MMO' means that all players have to buy ISK to deal with the constant attrition No players have to buy isk, although the way you talk suggests you have. As for ship, that arguement is just rubbish. I've taken a 140 mil battleship down in a 4 mil cruiser because I knew their ship and how it is usually fitted, confirmed their fit, then exploited their weakness. I was neither older than the pilot and didn;t have a better ship. But that day I was the better pilot. Quote: Players buying ISK means that macro farmers are rife Macro farmers everywhere means that prices go up High prices means that players buy more ISK If players want isk then they can use the GTC sales system. End of. there is no need to go to an isk farmer. Quote: Make insurance replace your entire ship plus modules plus cargo at only a 10-20% cost payable when they are replaced Make pod killing a CONCORD response crime in high and lowsec space regardless of war declarations Remove auto repeat ability from modules to make players actually have to press the keys occasionally Pah, these are wow type suggestions. Play the game for a while and you will start to see the benefits of it. A game where you can actually loose stuff makes for more entertaining play. If you don't like the game and decide to leave, can I have your stuff? -- Noble Scumbag
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.10.20 11:26:00 - [40] Edited by: Le Skunk on 20/10/2007 11:26:35 Originally by: Lord Evangelian Originally by: Industrial Witch 1 - Orbit Target 2 - Switch modules on 3 - AFK a bit 4 - Better ship wins LOL try telling that to the noobin a dread that poped by a groupe of 20 Pirates becuase he bought ISK. and a char and didnt have experience to know to jump out, or to call in backup. haha. Interestingly.. i suspect the 20 pirates did the following 1) Orbited the dread 2) switched their modules on 3) went afk a bit 4) the combined better firepower/ships won So it seems the OP was right in this scenario. The skill of the pirates was in tackling the target in the first place SKUNK >RESERVED FOR LINK<
Nadjar WING MAN INC	Posted - 2007.10.20 11:32:00 - [41] lol n00b Please come fight me with your great pvp tactics. _____________ No sig here, move along.
Lord Evangelian Gallente LEAP Corp	Posted - 2007.10.20 11:34:00 - [42] Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 20/10/2007 11:28:47 Originally by: Lord Evangelian Originally by: Industrial Witch 1 - Orbit Target 2 - Switch modules on 3 - AFK a bit 4 - Better ship wins LOL try telling that to the noobin a dread that poped by a groupe of 20 Pirates becuase he bought ISK. and a char and didnt have experience to know to jump out, or to call in backup. haha. Interestingly.. i suspect the 20 pirates did the following 1) Orbited the dread 2) switched their modules on 3) went afk a bit 4) the combined better firepower/ships won (20 pirates probably 100mill conservative average per ship is 2 billion isk compared to the dread) So it seems the OP was right in this scenario. The skill of the pirates was in tackling the target in the first place SKUNK Yeah what about teh dread, didnt he have to orbit switch on modules and technic ally better ship...in the newbies eyes that it, dreads are better than anything....big slow need protection and support, but people think capitals ae better ships, NOOOOOOOO Corp SHips! -----------------------------------------------------
Nadjar WING MAN INC	Posted - 2007.10.20 11:38:00 - [43] Orbitting dread ftw. Siege mode orbit is the way to glory, switch modules on, all of them, randomly... WIN! _____________ No sig here, move along.
Faralee	Posted - 2007.10.20 11:58:00 - [44] Edited by: Faralee on 20/10/2007 11:59:10 And so the community feeds the troll , good night. Edit: Jeebus, wrong character.
William DeMeo Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.10.20 12:06:00 - [45] Originally by: Industrial Witch Okay I've heard a few people say that PVP is all about the 'skill' and not about the ship/character, however it looks to me that pretty much all combat is like this: 1 - Orbit Target 2 - Switch modules on 3 - AFK a bit 4 - Better ship wins No where's the skill in any of that? Unless of course when people refer to skill they mean the skill of setting up the better ship? Because that 'skill' is pretty limited frankly - it's far more to do with who has the most ISK and better trained (aka older) character. So if anyone out there has a specific example of genuine skill winning a combat I'd like to see it please, because I don't believe it makes a a jot of difference. It seems to me, even after only a little while playing EVE that this is a major problem that causes all sorts of other things. 'Better ship always wins' means that newer players have to buy ISK to get the better ship and stand a chance against the older players 'Worst death penalty in any MMO' means that all players have to buy ISK to deal with the constant attrition Players buying ISK means that macro farmers are rife Macro farmers everywhere means that prices go up High prices means that players buy more ISK and bingo! you have a spiralling ecomony My suggestions: Make insurance replace your entire ship plus modules plus cargo at only a 10-20% cost payable when they are replaced Make pod killing a CONCORD response crime in high and lowsec space regardless of war declarations Remove auto repeat ability from modules to make players actually have to press the keys occasionally If you need to ask you suck. Now gtfo. Yarr
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.20 12:27:00 - [46] It looks simple, but it isn't. While a playing a shooter in deathmatch mode depends more on fast reactions and training accuracy, EVE pvp can be very tactical and making the right decisions at the right time matters a lot. Imho experience matters a lot more in many eve gang pvp situations than your skillpoints. There are also more than enough possibilites to screw something up, which leads to your death or an enemy escaping. Besides that it's not only shooting, but you can pick special roles in gangs/fleets, like fleetcommand, scouting/probing, fly interdictor, disable multiple enemies with your electronic warfare ship and such things, which is also a matter of experience and learning by doing. I'd say, try it out, like small gang vs. gang combat, or maybe solo combat in something inexpensive ! Gaining experience in eve pvp implies losing ships. P.S. I consider myself still a pvp newbie in comparison to those in the know despite having enough SP to almost fly and fit what I like and having spent quite some hours in pvp.
Tao Han Synthetic Frontiers	Posted - 2007.10.20 12:37:00 - [47] Its a troll, for the love of all kinds of Gods man have invented, stop feeding it! ------ snip Your signature image is password-protected. -Rauth Kivaro([email protected]) I know, CEO was being a tard. -Tao
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2007.10.20 12:39:00 - [48] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Sheriff Jones I find it a skill to AVOID PVP when wanted, not in PVP itself That's like, the zeroeth rule or sumfin' ! I don't have any idea where you're going with that, but i like it My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.10.20 12:47:00 - [49] A large part of the skills in PVP consists of: - knowing how to fit your ship - knowing how to pick your fights and when to get the hell out isn't it funny how some people advocate both GTC<=>ISK trades and EVE being superior due to its cruelty and costly losses, when they use the former to circumvent the latter?
Zarthanon Gallente Random Acts of Violence Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.10.20 12:49:00 - [50] It's amazing how much thought people put into posting on this forum, cept most of that thought is wrong. People need to fully understand a subject before trying to convince others of their beliefs. I like pie.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.20 12:50:00 - [51] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Originally by: Akita T That's like, the zeroeth rule or sumfin' ! I don't have any idea where you're going with that, but i like it Where ? There ! _ 1\|2\|3
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2007.10.20 12:51:00 - [52] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Sheriff Jones Originally by: Akita T That's like, the zeroeth rule or sumfin' ! I don't have any idea where you're going with that, but i like it Where ? There ! Ooooh! Right, right. Gotcha. So...kicks dust around...what'cha up to? My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.20 12:53:00 - [53] Loads-a-Caffeine. You ? _ 1\|2\|3
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2007.10.20 12:56:00 - [54] Originally by: Akita T Loads-a-Caffeine. You ? Loads-a-bree. And caffeine. And nicotine. And mild painkillers. And energy drinks My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Sun Ra Grumpy Old Farts Gruntfuttocks	Posted - 2007.10.20 13:00:00 - [55] OP post is kinda correct.... id say most fights in eve are won before you even enter combat, unless the one with the upper hand makes a silly mistakes during the fight
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.20 13:06:00 - [56] I agree and disagree. PvP is (for a large part) not decided by actual in-combat skills. 1. The skills to choose your battles (decides 90% of PvP) 2. Difference in ship fittings (both in quality and fitting skill) 3. Difference in (relevant) pilot skill points 4. Actual tactical (flying) skills I can safely say that over 90% of the battles I've been in, the outcome was already decided before combat skill came into the picture. Knowing how to engage and/or avoid battles is the core PvP survival skill. Tactical pilot skill does make a difference in determining the number of casualties inflicted on either side. The more equally matched (in terms of modules, ship types and pilot skill points) a battle is, the greater contribution of actual combat skills. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
cRazYf1St House of Tempers	Posted - 2007.10.20 13:07:00 - [57] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Industrial Witch 1 - Orbit Target 2 - Switch modules on 3 - AFK a bit 4 - Better ship wins You forgot 0 : pick your fights -1 : be at the right place at the right time -2 : bring friends -3 : know how to fit your ship -4 : get intel -5 : buy fitings -6 : train skills -7 : have brain you forgot you gotta know when to get the hell out *********************************************** OMFG YARRRR!?!?!?!?!
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.20 13:10:00 - [58] Originally by: Sun Ra id say most fights in eve are won before you even enter combat And you'd be right; but this doesnt remove skill from the equation. 3/4 of PvP is learning when no to fight.
Chromakey Dreamcoat Caldari Model Of Aggression	Posted - 2007.10.20 13:19:00 - [59] Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 20/10/2007 11:13:40 Your all caining this guy but theres more then an element of truth in what he says. Baring a) 2v1/3v1/4v1 ganks b) huge idiotic gaffs from a pilot Skill points, and in particular specializations in skill points mean a LOT in the outcome of any PVP battle. If im in the same ship with the same setups as a 2 mill skill point guy im going to win because i have 25% more shield 25% more armor 25% more structure 30% more damage 50% more drone damage 25% more cap etc. If im fighting in the same setup with a guy with the same SP as me and ive splashed out on guicci faction fits im going to win because I have 20% more damage etc etc. ITs also true that the battle is often won on how you setup your ship. Most of learned 'pvp' skills is knowing what a ships weakness are and whether you should do a bunk back to the gate or duke it out The rabid responses from the skillpoint rich players show somewhat that people like to think they are uber pvp'ers - when in fact they win a lot of fight because they got 20% advantage over the other guy due to paying CCP their cash for a longer period of time. SKUNK Unlike the other rabid fanboy responses this post made more sense than most I've read on these forums.
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.20 13:31:00 - [60] Edited by: Plutoinum on 20/10/2007 13:35:39 Originally by: Adunh Slavy Skills in Eve are not of a tactile nature. I think tactic matters. In team combat, you often try to fight the enemies on your terms, like baiting them, sandwiching them, getting a close-range or long-range warp-in point, splitting the enemy, like dragging small ships away by pretending to flee, dragging fighters away, waiting for half of the fleet to warp out and going in to kill the stragglers, using special setups that have a certain strength and make the enemy underestimate and attack you.... Stuff like this happens each day on TQ in gang combat.

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