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The end of Macrominers, I think this one will work

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ZerKar Caldari Zen'Tar	Posted - 2007.10.21 11:02:00 - [1] I thought it over long and hard because this problem is a real pain and I feel for CCP while they try to figure out how to put an end to these exploiters. Seriously it is not an easy problem to solve...Buuuut...Thinking outside the box a bit I have come up with an idea that could very well work. The idea is trapped roids. Randomly dispersed among belts would be Roids that look and feel in EVERY WAY like normal roids except that in their portrait they appear red maybe with a DO NOT MINE warning printed on them. But they are normal on the over view, their info is normal, everything but the picture is normal. Now IF you activate a mining module on them they punnish you. For a serious punnishment the Miner's ship would explode being blown up by a mined roid. For a less severe but possibly more fun punnishment the Miner is Red Flagged to everyone for 15 Minutes just like a normal Argo Timer everytime they strike the Roid giving Macro Hunters the ability to take them down and if they are not a Macroer then they had best GTFO of there and dock until it wears off. For this to work the Warning Picture should be very blatant and straightforeward but should be as indetectable by the Macrominer's programs as possible so that they will not be able to tell one roid from another. For real miners this may be the slightest inconvienance but I do not think it would be that big of a deal as the Roids would be interspersed a fair bit and would only represent around 1% to 2% of the Roids in any given Belt. To get Macroers out of their belts I think most Miners would welcome that tiny bit of hassel. Thoughts? Comments? Think this could do the trick? ------------------------------------------------ everything is never Nothing is Never Not ------------------------------------------------
Xlera	Posted - 2007.10.21 11:28:00 - [2] i like it, might do the trick
Bunyip Gallente	Posted - 2007.10.21 11:55:00 - [3] Nice idea, ZerKar. However, I don't think I'd go so far as it blowing up the ship. Just starting the aggro timer for the miner (and maybe transferring it to anybody who modifies contents of the can they're using) would be a huge benefit. In order for this to work, this would have to require a show info screen. Visual recognition on macro programs is pretty advanced, so it should require a minor step to find out (maybe like "scan for traps" or something). In short: /signed -Bunyip "May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.21 12:14:00 - [4] Pretty much everything a human could do, a macro will be able to anyway. All you're doing is weeking out the "stupid" macros, and for the rest, just adding a short delay before they adapt. Meanwhile, you add an annoyance to normal mining. /NOT signed _ 1\|2\|3
Kalda Centauri Gallente	Posted - 2007.10.21 14:51:00 - [5] I like the train of thought, espically of the flagging the miner, but when I play, I collapse the overview picture area (I like to have more free space when looking into... space), so maybe something slightly different could be done? Maybe have it play a different sound while mining it, so you could deactivate the lazer before the trap goes off, or maybe have the lazer be green (though that would negatively affect those with turret effects off).
Khanak Hryad Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2007.10.21 16:57:00 - [6] Edited by: Khanak Hryad on 21/10/2007 16:58:11 Originally by: Akita T Pretty much everything a human could do, a macro will be able to anyway. All you're doing is weeking out the "stupid" macros, and for the rest, just adding a short delay before they adapt. Meanwhile, you add an annoyance to normal mining. /NOT signed not true... a macro is essentially an advanced keylogger: not only does it relpicate what you do on yer keyboard, but also what you do with your mouse. however, if the only way to detect this is through visual means (read: seeing it), and it can't be sorted out in the overview window, AND they're randomized in every belt + whenever the belts respawn, then this will work. The important things are that it remains undetectable except by sight, and whenever roids are spawned in a belt, the old unmined "bad" roids are deleted and new ones are dispersed throughout the belt. and i like the red aggres timer except for one thing: this will incur the wrath of Concord, no? How about, instead of that, a message pops up on everyone's screen saying something like "We have detected a miner who is breaking the rules: <name> located in <belt name & number>. Pilots, feel free to take them out." So Concord wouldn't be alerted, but the local players would....which might be pointless in systems that are less populated....so maybe Concord should be notified... /signed anyways EDIT: bah typos New Idea to Diminish Blobs
Tawrich Tistrya	Posted - 2007.10.21 21:29:00 - [7] I like the idea. But why not extend it to more severe punishment. A ship can be replaced , the actual flag should go on the entire account , when the flag remains ccp can then perform a check and if found as macroer ban the account. Blowing ships up will not stop macroers ,although fun it only slows them down a lil. Banning wont stop them either but it will slow them down alot more.
Vorian Dexter	Posted - 2007.10.21 22:50:00 - [8] Edited by: Vorian Dexter on 21/10/2007 22:51:59 Edited by: Vorian Dexter on 21/10/2007 22:51:38 Why not make those roids just give a tiny payback for the mining time like .0001 unit ore for every cycle.. and have an limitless size. Then when a macroer gets to it they get stuck mining it forever, never filling their hold and never getting a profit.
Tawrich Tistrya	Posted - 2007.10.21 22:54:00 - [9] They'd just add coding to check for amount gained per cycle i think.
Quinn Idaho	Posted - 2007.10.21 23:04:00 - [10] Originally by: Tawrich Tistrya They'd just add coding to check for amount gained per cycle i think. Do you know anything about macros? Is that possible? Not being rude just ignorant of how macros work.
Theodwyn	Posted - 2007.10.21 23:23:00 - [11] should be possible, only thing you need to know is, there the window is, and then (use a black-white color scheme) you can read out the amount (ocr).
Tawrich Tistrya	Posted - 2007.10.21 23:26:00 - [12] Not sure if it is possible with macro , but i can imagine more advanced options then just a macro , character reckognition and such. I know from another MMO that there was a whole range of 3rd party programs specifically designed for just that game and those could do nearly everything automated and was hard to detect. Not sure what methods macrominers use here , but i would think that a large macromining+isk selling group would be using more advanced methods then just macro's.
Quinn Idaho	Posted - 2007.10.21 23:27:00 - [13] Originally by: Theodwyn should be possible, only thing you need to know is, there the window is, and then (use a black-white color scheme) you can read out the amount (ocr). Well in that case get the cargo window to open in a random location, or minimized when it opens, also give it a random name rather than your cargo.
Quinn Idaho	Posted - 2007.10.21 23:32:00 - [14] Originally by: Tawrich Tistrya Not sure if it is possible with macro , but i can imagine more advanced options then just a macro , character reckognition and such. I know from another MMO that there was a whole range of 3rd party programs specifically designed for just that game and those could do nearly everything automated and was hard to detect. Not sure what methods macrominers use here , but i would think that a large macromining+isk selling group would be using more advanced methods then just macro's. True.. but nothing wrong with cutting out the guys that dont use the advanced stuff. Nothing wrong with trying to keep ahead of them anyway, so far nothing innovative has been done.. we are just giving in to them.
Tawrich Tistrya	Posted - 2007.10.21 23:41:00 - [15] i agree that more has to be done , but i'd prefer them taking on the big 'player' first before taking out he smaller ones. The debate imo on macrominers is : should we hang em or should we shoot em ?
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.22 00:54:00 - [16] Most "macro miners" are not some mindless program. Typially it is five or six miners and a hauler all controled by one human watching the screens. Parts of it are automated, such as dumping cargo to a can. If something like this is added, then those humans will simply do it and get better at doing it than legit players. -AS
ZerKar Caldari Zen'Tar	Posted - 2007.10.22 02:32:00 - [17] Originally by: Kalda Centauri I like the train of thought, espically of the flagging the miner, but when I play, I collapse the overview picture area (I like to have more free space when looking into... space), so maybe something slightly different could be done? Maybe have it play a different sound while mining it, so you could deactivate the lazer before the trap goes off, or maybe have the lazer be green (though that would negatively affect those with turret effects off). The sound could be a good one too though I mean the portrait that shows up next to the Overview not the overview picture itself in this case. ------------------------------------------------ everything is never Nothing is Never Not ------------------------------------------------
ZerKar Caldari Zen'Tar	Posted - 2007.10.22 02:33:00 - [18] Originally by: Khanak Hryad Edited by: Khanak Hryad on 21/10/2007 16:58:11 Originally by: Akita T Pretty much everything a human could do, a macro will be able to anyway. All you're doing is weeking out the "stupid" macros, and for the rest, just adding a short delay before they adapt. Meanwhile, you add an annoyance to normal mining. /NOT signed not true... a macro is essentially an advanced keylogger: not only does it relpicate what you do on yer keyboard, but also what you do with your mouse. however, if the only way to detect this is through visual means (read: seeing it), and it can't be sorted out in the overview window, AND they're randomized in every belt + whenever the belts respawn, then this will work. The important things are that it remains undetectable except by sight, and whenever roids are spawned in a belt, the old unmined "bad" roids are deleted and new ones are dispersed throughout the belt. and i like the red aggres timer except for one thing: this will incur the wrath of Concord, no? How about, instead of that, a message pops up on everyone's screen saying something like "We have detected a miner who is breaking the rules: <name> located in <belt name & number>. Pilots, feel free to take them out." So Concord wouldn't be alerted, but the local players would....which might be pointless in systems that are less populated....so maybe Concord should be notified... /signed anyways EDIT: bah typos LoL nope. I had intended in that case that Concord not come and kill them, they are just fair game for everyone else to blow up. ------------------------------------------------ everything is never Nothing is Never Not ------------------------------------------------
ZerKar Caldari Zen'Tar	Posted - 2007.10.22 02:36:00 - [19] Originally by: Vorian Dexter Edited by: Vorian Dexter on 21/10/2007 22:51:59 Edited by: Vorian Dexter on 21/10/2007 22:51:38 Why not make those roids just give a tiny payback for the mining time like .0001 unit ore for every cycle.. and have an limitless size. Then when a macroer gets to it they get stuck mining it forever, never filling their hold and never getting a profit. ------------------------------------------------ everything is never Nothing is Never Not ------------------------------------------------
Kittamaru Gallente Ceptacemia Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.10.22 06:52:00 - [20] I like two of the ideas here: Flagging for Concord AND players (concord for high sec, players for low sec and 0.0 macros) The 1 unit of ore mined per cycle is an AMAZINGLY EVIL idea... I LOVE IT! This way they sit on that same stupid roid FOREVER as they will NEVER mine a 100,000 unit roid in 1 unit every 3 minute intervals!
Max Kolonko Caldari Domini Umbrus VENOM Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.22 07:30:00 - [21] Macros can do almost anything, i saw a program made for WOW that was able to pick up mobs of chosen type, so they could kill spcific ones only. the program recognised where on screen monsters are clicked on each of them and "readed" the name of monster. so i guess it is the same for EVE. For macro miners to die, CCP need to invent some kind of way to block other programs from reading screen content or using mouse/keybord remotly. Max Kolonko
Xlera	Posted - 2007.10.22 07:47:00 - [22] Random spawned ores, and they spawn frequently which are same as normal ores but these have faint red spots on their texture, when you mine them it explodes and destroys the ship. And/Or the ore explodes dealing damage to everything around say 50km and anyone got damaged this way may attack the one who caused the explosion. how about this ?
Max Kolonko Caldari Domini Umbrus VENOM Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.22 08:06:00 - [23] Not very good, as i said, if they use things like the one program i saw for WOW, the program can te taught to recognise it, while normal miners will just die on it, if they are semi-afk mining during work, or just are tired after x hours of corp op running. Max Kolonko
Xlera	Posted - 2007.10.22 08:28:00 - [24] Edited by: Xlera on 22/10/2007 08:28:43 reading a string and recognizing a faint color change on a texture are completely different things for a macro code
Macro Slasher	Posted - 2007.10.22 08:43:00 - [25] As 99% of those ships are not MACROminers but sweatshop operations, this would not work really.
Max Kolonko Caldari Domini Umbrus VENOM Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.22 09:26:00 - [26] Has any of you ever worked with graphic recognision system, every decent scaner you buy have program that is runed by algorithm that allows more than is needed for eve. You can find or buy algorithms for that on internet and its not something uncomon, dont forget that best macro programs are traded for big $$$ so they can afford to buy algorithms to run them, THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE Max Kolonko
Max Kolonko Caldari Domini Umbrus VENOM Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.22 09:34:00 - [27] Edited by: Max Kolonko on 22/10/2007 09:34:24 sorry for double post but i have something to add. the only way i can think of is by somehow blocking mouse keyboard by eve apllication - you can for example bl0ck all protocols taht runs eve only for eve aplication, its not simple, but its worth a shot - without it the eve cant fight macro-miners, and by doing changes to mechanics you only panish the normal miners that spend dozens hours a day. niot only that - you all says faint change of colors.... what about color blind?? a sound - what about people who cant hear?? they cant mine?? they will die mining?? honestly this is all STUPID... And just to ensure you - my char and all of my alts has like 100k SP in mining when puted all toghever - so i dont mine, but i know that some people from my corp are, and they dont maco, even more they hunt macro miners. And they spend countless hours tired with tired eyes infront of monitor chating all the time while only checking if the belt is still free of rats/hostiles and to change rock. They will suffer becouse of your idea, not macro miners, its just a matter of time... Max Kolonko
Xlera	Posted - 2007.10.22 10:39:00 - [28] Edited by: Xlera on 22/10/2007 10:41:22 Originally by: Max Kolonko Has any of you ever worked with graphic recognision system, every decent scaner you buy have program that is runed by algorithm that allows more than is needed for eve. You can find or buy algorithms for that on internet and its not something uncomon, dont forget that best macro programs are traded for big $$$ so they can afford to buy algorithms to run them, THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE How do you know you can find a recognition algorithm that will recognize a faint( you dont even know how faint it is ) color change on internet, adapt it for eve and still keep the macro bot under a reasonable price and yet profit from it ? edit: and i am a miner and i mine several hours a day
Theodwyn	Posted - 2007.10.22 11:59:00 - [29] Originally by: Quinn Idaho Edited by: Quinn Idaho on 21/10/2007 23:27:41 Originally by: Theodwyn should be possible, only thing you need to know is, there the window is, and then (use a black-white color scheme) you can read out the amount (ocr). Well in that case get the cargo window to open in a random location, or minimized when it opens, also give it a random name rather than your cargo. When you mine one of these fake roids... should be easy enough to spot off the bat for a genuine player. close all windows except that one and you can find the window, its only a little bit more work, but algorithm for such things exist
Yamichi Wiggin Caldari Rising Knights SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.22 15:53:00 - [30] No. This has been suggested before. Still a no. A: Colorblind people will have a hard time sorting out which rock they're hitting. This can be fixed but it will be hard. B: When I mine, I don't look at the rocks. I look at my overview. My hulk mines at 15km radius. With the gang links I can mine around 20km. I don't pick a rock by how shiny it is, what direction it's pointed or anything like that. I look at my overview. I find the best types within my range, plug in a crystal and fire. I can't be arsed to then zoom in on the roid to see its color/shape. C: if you change the locked icon and not the actual rock, it will be much easier for a macro to pick up on it. D: "For this to work the Warning Picture should be very blatant and straightforeward but should be as indetectable by the Macrominer's programs as possible" How is it going to be clearly distinguishable except by a pattern recognition program? Don't get me wrong. As a carebear, I fuggin HATE macrominers. But this would simply be another hurdle for them to cross. I'd rather see the programming hours put into solving lag isues and figuring out why all my caldari ships are so freaking ugly. ------ Pain is weakness leaving the body. There is no love in fear

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