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Why did CCP made the laser weapons obsolete?

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Mitram	Posted - 2004.02.25 09:38:00 - [1] Edited by: Mitram on 25/02/2004 09:39:35 Already laser weapons are the worsed BS weapons in the game. They suck too much cap, they need too much powergrid, they don't do better damage on shields anymore, they still do a lot less damage on armor than other weapons. (e.g. 425 hybrid) So whats the role of laser weapons in EVE now? They have no role anymore. At best they can be considered good weapons to bring stations shields down. But thats all. Now with the upcomming hybrid changes 425 are supirer to tach lasers in may ways. Especially since 425 do about the same damage on shields and on armor. I figured that I already can throw out the 5 tach lasers from my Apoc and replace them with 6 425's. Instead mounting 3 cap relays, 1 power control, 1 power diag, I will mount 1 or 2 cpu enhancers to be able to mount the 425's. After the upcomming hybrid changes I will be even able to mount 7 425's. Also I will be able to mount more damage mods or tracking mods. So CCP please explain whats the role for lasers now? I see no real role anymore. To bring down station shields I will just carry 4 mega beam laser in the cargo hold and will equip them when we actually attack a station. Just to list the role of weapons: Blasters: short range, extrem damage Projectils: long range, extrem damge but a bit slow. Hybrids: mid range good damage to shields, good damage to armor (now the laser replacement) Lasers: mid range, good damge to shields, bad damge to armor. The former role of lasers, the shield killer, is gone since the radio crystales were changed from 32emp to 24emp. Currently I can only advice every arrmar to train hybrid weapons and leave the lasers only as a secondary option for special situations. TomB, maybe you have to rethink the role of lasers before they really get obsolete. TIA, Mitram.
KamiCrazy	Posted - 2004.02.25 09:48:00 - [2] Umm when did lasers ever do bad dmg to shields? Eerrr never... they have always been good at UNHARDENED shields. The problem with laser dmg is not in the lasers themselves but in the popularity of EM hardners. Lasers suck too much cap. Thats definitely true
Siddy	Posted - 2004.02.25 09:55:00 - [3] well.. lasers ARE beter than rails at the moment -------------------------------------------
TWD	Posted - 2004.02.25 10:07:00 - [4] Quote: well.. lasers ARE beter than rails at the moment why? on a Megathron 425mm railguns are way better than megabeams/tachyons, in almost every aspect... 425mm railgun on a Raven is slightly better than a megabeam on an apoc.
Kovak	Posted - 2004.02.25 10:12:00 - [5] Everyone fits em and thermal hardeners its as simple as that, at some point the way its going everyone might be fitting thermal and kinetic due to the increasing popularity of rails. Lasers are to a certain extent a victim of their own success, at one point practically every bs fitted lasers since they were so good, in response everyone has hardened up their shields especially against laser fire. I've said it in threads before, there is never going to be a perfect balance in the game, all it takes is for the majority of players to fit a single particular hardener and the weapons balance goes out of whack again. I know alot of people will disagree but generalising in most weapons classes wouldn't hurt if you want to constantly have the edge.
Uliet Kynes	Posted - 2004.02.25 10:23:00 - [6] And laser weapons do not need cargo holds full of ammunition, right?
TWD	Posted - 2004.02.25 10:37:00 - [7] EMP L is mainly EM+Explosive damage, Phased Plasma is mainly thermal, hybrid ammo is Kinetic+Thermal, Laser crystals is EM+Thermal... EM and Thermal have the least shield resistance and are the most common damage types in ammotypes.. so that is why they are used so much.
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2004.02.25 11:05:00 - [8] Edited by: Admiral IceBlock on 25/02/2004 11:06:33 r u saying that lasers should be boosted becouse of ppl using EM and Thermal Hardners? WTF man? "We brake for nobody"
TWD	Posted - 2004.02.25 11:12:00 - [9] Edited by: TWD on 25/02/2004 11:13:50 No, I am saying that people dont use EM+Thermal hardeners just to only encounter lasers. imo laser damage is fine. just the capacitor usage is a bit too high.
Mitram	Posted - 2004.02.25 11:55:00 - [10] You didn't got my point. My point is: Why should anyone (including people using Armar ships) use lasers? There is no point in using lasers currently. When comparing them with 425 the 425 wins most cases. So I will switch to 425 on my Apoc (as I said) and I can only advice everyone to do the same. So why is CCP keeping the laser weapons in the game? They could deleted them and no one will complain. I don't want that the lasers get stronger or so. I am better of with the 425's. And that is my statement of this post. There is no reason for the lasers to exist.
Nootami	Posted - 2004.02.25 12:26:00 - [11] Quote: You didn't got my point. My point is: Why should anyone (including people using Armar ships) use lasers? There is no point in using lasers currently. When comparing them with 425 the 425 wins most cases. So I will switch to 425 on my Apoc (as I said) and I can only advice everyone to do the same. So why is CCP keeping the laser weapons in the game? They could deleted them and no one will complain. I don't want that the lasers get stronger or so. I am better of with the 425's. And that is my statement of this post. There is no reason for the lasers to exist. Because they reload in 1 second Because they dont use ammo Because they still kick ass against NPC's And whats with you categorizing them as medium range? Mega's and Tachs go out to almost 80k with radio crystals. Originally by: Cortex Reaver [22:39:59] [Oi]Nootami1 joined channel [22:40:02] [Oi]Nootami1 quit Oh,look! Someone joined for a whopping .3 seconds! -CR
Nathan Zachary	Posted - 2004.02.25 13:21:00 - [12] Quote: So why is CCP keeping the laser weapons in the game? They could deleted them and no one will complain. I would complain! I like my lasers for what im doing most of my time (killing npc rats). i dont want to change to hyb's or pro's. so get lost, and take this stupid thread with you....
Ancient	Posted - 2004.02.25 13:49:00 - [13] I seem to remember threads before the patch saying 425's were very underpowered and now people are complaining that lasers are underpowered. For once it would seem that Lasers/Hybrid/Proj turrets are now pretty balanced, and i'm pretty sure people are just moaning for moanings sake. Now IF the cap relay nerf comes into effect then there might be a cap problem but as it stands there is quite a good balance between the large guns now (can't comment on the med/small as don't use them). The cap drain is manageable but you just need the right skills to make better use of the cap. Well, thats my opinion anyway for what it's worth. Regards, Ancient.
Paddyman	Posted - 2004.02.25 13:55:00 - [14] well b4 we start another laser thread, we have one right here going well if anyone wants inform themselves and make comments. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=60702
Gariuys	Posted - 2004.02.25 13:57:00 - [15] If you run the numbers you will see there's nothing wrong with lasers. They suck cap and grid yet still do more damage then all other guns ( just do the bloody numbers can't be arsed to look for my calculations atm ) and that's taking harderners into acount, there's a reason everybody uses EM and thermal hardners, against unhardend shields lasers are sickenly effective. Stop using lasers and people will start using different hardners, when they do, lasers will completely obliterate shields again, resulting in people using EM hardeners again. etc. etc. That's not a faulty game, that is balance. You know the thing you've been asking for ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Hellspawn01	Posted - 2004.02.25 14:13:00 - [16] Don¦t forget the bonus on amarr ships when using lasers. --------------------------------------------- Eve is not game, it¦s a way of life!
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2004.02.25 14:24:00 - [17] Edited by: Jim Raynor on 25/02/2004 14:25:12 Lasers are okay, the problem is CCP tries to compensate for the fact Caldari suck with railguns by making railguns better and better but all they wind up doing is making Gallante stronger and stronger with them and Caldari still stick to missiles and usually projectiles due to fitting constraints. As far as turrets go, they're pretty balanced, lasers might use too much cap, but really they do have a lot of advantages over projectiles/hybrids. Ship bonuses might need to be looked at, but let's face it, the Apocalypse is a huge capacitator, that's its strength, it has more than enough cap for most any weapon or any other module, now if cap relays are heavily nerfed then that might be a problem. Lasers use a lot of powergrid because Amarr ships have the most powergrid. The powergrid of lasers is to dissuade other races' ships from using lasers as is the high very high CPU usage on railguns to dissuade non Caldari ships from using railguns. Question is do you run into CPU problems or powergrid problems when you fit railguns on an Apocalypse? It should be that CPU issues arise before any other; I'd have to do the math on that though. If you ever fight a huge lag fest battle you'll appreciate not having to reload those lasers, it's somethingÆs basically impossible to reload in big fights. Hell other day I had to warp out just to reload my weapons the lag was so bad. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
Karsten	Posted - 2004.02.25 14:25:00 - [18] Edited by: Karsten on 25/02/2004 14:32:28 When you train certain skill and fit a cap recharger you can control the cap usage. My stomach feeling is that guns are now reasonable well balanced. For npc combat i use laser on my dominix and mega because they need no ammo. Domi fitting is 2 Tachyons 4 Heavy beams 1 large shield booster 2 burner 2 named cap recharger low losts no power related items Mega fitting 3 tachyon 3 heavy beams 2 missles bays 1 xlarge shield booster 1 burner 2 named cap recharger low losts no power related items both can keep the tachyon firing for a long time. the fitting is clearly not pvp and for constant firepower instead of peak damage output. One reason for this fitting was that lasers need no ammo. it works fine for me when going after npc. A pvp fitting would be different of course. In summary all guns have now some advantages and everyone can adjust his ship and his skills to maximise the personal favourite gun Karsten "All your ISK belong to the Viking Brewery"
Lucre	Posted - 2004.02.25 14:59:00 - [19] I think you're right, Mitram. I've already got two 425s on my Apoc. Am seriously thinking of adding some more. Compare 425s and Megabeams. Even neglecting any Gallente ship bonuses they do damn near the same damage over similar ranges. Yet even with Amarr bonuses the Megabeam uses half again as much cap and (even before patch) vastly more grid. Okay, it uses more cpu but that's more easily curable than an empty capacitor! Put 6 Megas on an Apoc and you'll have to worry about cap, at least if running other stuff too (not least because too many of your low slots will have rcus or pds instead of the relays you need to keep your cap up). Put 6 425s (especially after next patch) and I reckon you'd be laughing. Yet the damage yield and range aren't significantly different. That's got to be wrong. Maybe ammo was a big plus factor for lasers when there were no stations in deep 0.0 to resupply from. Now there are... I reckon cap use for lasers needs to come down by maybe 15-20%, grid by maybe 5% (or put the hybrids back up!). Whilst the Apoc needs a laser damage bonus instead of its cap bonus. (Sudden counter-intuitive idea - also raise shield EM resistance to maybe 15%? Zero resistance makes an EM ward seem essential. Give shields some EM resistance and this may not feel as necessary, especially if more people are using hybrids.)
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2004.02.25 15:25:00 - [20] Edited by: Admiral IceBlock on 25/02/2004 15:27:01 the apoc certainly doesnt need a laser dmg bonus!!! and ur not suppose to run all ur lasers while running ur xl booster forever without getting a empty capacitor... and how many reactors and diags do u need to fitt 6 megabeams on a apoc? none "We brake for nobody"
TWD	Posted - 2004.02.25 16:32:00 - [21] Quote: Edited by: Admiral IceBlock on 25/02/2004 15:27:01 the apoc certainly doesnt need a laser dmg bonus!!! and ur not suppose to run all ur lasers while running ur xl booster forever without getting a empty capacitor... and how many reactors and diags do u need to fitt 6 megabeams on a apoc? none Rofl nuub, 6x megabeams = 19500 powergrid base apoc powergrid = 15000 * 1.25 = 18750 when fitting enough cap relays, lasers are quite doable.. but if cap relays get nerfed, lasers will suck compared to other weapons
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2004.02.25 16:47:00 - [22] oh damn it, i thought it was 2,750 MW! "We brake for nobody"
Lucre	Posted - 2004.02.26 10:06:00 - [23] Quote: oh damn it, i thought it was 2,750 MW! No, it's railguns that have grid needs that low... ;-) (And getting lower!) You can just about make 6 megas work on an Apoc - gridwise and capwise, but 6 x 425s is far more workable for near-same damage/range and much less cap! IMHO that's just not right. And given the Megathron has a damage bonus, the Raven has a damage bonus (Missile RoF increases DoT), and the Tempest has a double damage bonus, why does it seem so inconceivable that the Apoc could have one too? Especially if it lost one of its others? (I'll probably agree with those who say the Caldari are hard done by in the BS bonus department too, but that's a different issue!)
Nootami	Posted - 2004.02.26 22:35:00 - [24] Quote: Edited by: Admiral IceBlock on 25/02/2004 15:27:01 the apoc certainly doesnt need a laser dmg bonus!!! and ur not suppose to run all ur lasers while running ur xl booster forever without getting a empty capacitor... and how many reactors and diags do u need to fitt 6 megabeams on a apoc? none Wouldnt be able to fit much else without a few CPU's with 6 megabeams, i think. Originally by: Cortex Reaver [22:39:59] [Oi]Nootami1 joined channel [22:40:02] [Oi]Nootami1 quit Oh,look! Someone joined for a whopping .3 seconds! -CR
Rizmordan Hillgotlieb	Posted - 2004.02.26 23:09:00 - [25] Edited by: Rizmordan Hillgotlieb on 26/02/2004 23:10:40 It's really hit or miss For NPC hunting I use tachs and and heavy beams - with a sensor booster and radio Ls the tachs I can hit over 100k. I also have no worries for ammo - so I can stay out all day. That's what lasers are good for. For PvP it really depends - since most encounters are w/in 40k then your choice is up to you. I am slowly preferring 425s... Posting for Numbnutz
Lysender	Posted - 2004.02.26 23:21:00 - [26] Hell I just use the apoc to mine roids, that's all its good for now anyways. I might get myself into a scorp when the time comes.
Belzavior	Posted - 2004.02.26 23:33:00 - [27] Truefully I don't have as much combat experience as some of the heavy pvpers here. But IMO after Cap Relays get the nerfing they're supposed to. Running lasers by themselves are going to be a problem. Not to mention tossing any hardeners or boosters in the mix, or other modules. Don't get me wrong Cap Relays need to be nerfed. But lasers users are way too dependant on them. You pretty much need 5 or 6 of em just to have laser power for any type of decent engagement. Another thing is people keep saying lasers are awesome for PVE. That may be true, however I think formost that every module should be balanced for PVP over PVE. PVE engagements are no where near the importance of PVP engagements with only a couple exceptions.
Sepharim	Posted - 2004.02.26 23:50:00 - [28] nutz to all of this weopon is best nonsense , do as jim raynor says, make each weopon the best to the ship it is fitted with, ie a few months ago everyone had tachyons fitted, so ccp nerfed tachyons without thinking what the effects would be on amaar ships in general ( ie the apoc, supposedly the best out and out slugger ( read ccp's text description) for a tier 2 bs in the game is now the weakest ). The reason why gallente ships are so good at the mo is because ccp is trying to make up for caldari ships being weak, so they up the hybrid guns, without thinking what the knock on effect wil be. I feel sorry for the peeps piloting a tempest, in a few weeks there will be another change, and all of a sudden 1400's will be rubbish.... its so predictable and sad really.......
Slithereen	Posted - 2004.02.27 00:28:00 - [29] I figure the same too. Laser damage simply does not justify their cap use, which is more than enough to put you in peril. They need at least a 25% reduction in cap. Just better to dump the lasers and put 425s or 1400s in Amarr battleships. Amarrian cruisers are just as screwed. Maybe later I'll find another game to play as these devs don't really know how to balance or fine tune a game as I'm really beginning to get very sick of this. _______________________________________________ "Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies, "Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. "Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
Glyphe Temare	Posted - 2004.02.27 08:49:00 - [30] Instead of whining about cap relays getting nerfed, do some math and you'll see that power diags are just about as much effective and many people are already using em and since lasers use a lot of powergrid, it's another plus to the power diags. BTW last december 90% of the megathrons/dominix pilots were using lasers instead of rails for PVP, now that was wrong and had to be fixed as for your precious tachyons they're still the best weapons in the game, the last DOT tests proves it.

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