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Delphi Disra Gallente An Eye For An Eye Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.10.24 00:48:00 - [1] Ravens are the only ships that really use torpedoes, the fact that they are slow as a sloth would make them almost usless when using torpedoes. And ravens are the only ships that really use torpedos. At least allow the raven to stay good at what they do, ratting. If you nerf the torpedoes to only 30k they would become totally useless and caldari nerfed even further, leaving gallante and amarr as the kings. I can see you wanting them to have shorter range but make it somthing reasonable like 50k so that torpedoes can still be used for ratting!
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.24 00:55:00 - [2] Edited by: d026 on 24/10/2007 00:55:41 torpedos will be extremely usefull (except for mission whoring). and protip: for ratting fit a mwd!
Delphi Disra Gallente An Eye For An Eye Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.10.24 00:58:00 - [3] The rats have far far faster MWD's they can go way faster than any raven ever could. Yes they wont be useufull for mission whoring anymore which is the only use of a raven now a days.
ragewind Caldari VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.24 01:00:00 - [4] make rats short range if the rats engage at 30KM or below and all is good
Delphi Disra Gallente An Eye For An Eye Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.10.24 01:04:00 - [5] I agree that would also be a viable solution.... just decrease all rats engagement range to 30km or below
sallyr Gallente The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.10.24 01:09:00 - [6] frankly i love the idea of caldari finaly become less of a F1-6 sit back and relax! maby now you might have to move!!! lol but really every other race has a short range high damage alternative bar caldari . . who just has 2 very long range options and the only dissadvantage being that it takes a while to get there! (not that important in a fight where time is not of the essence!) this way torps are finaly like blasters and autocannons and cruse are finaly like rails and howwys! every other ship has to fly to its target to use its close range guns . . .why shouldnt caldari . . remember you still dont have falloff to worry about!
Delphi Disra Gallente An Eye For An Eye Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.10.24 01:30:00 - [7] It was caldari's only positive thing. Now they are in my opinion worse off than mimnitars. If you want them to move dont make them slower than the opponent they are meant to kill.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.24 01:40:00 - [8] Originally by: Delphi Disra It was caldari's only positive thing. Now they are in my opinion worse off than mimnitars. If you want them to move dont make them slower than the opponent they are meant to kill. Raven is faster than the plated neutron blaster mega, hundreds of pilots everyday fly the plated neutron bthron. Whine more please.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.24 01:42:00 - [9] Edited by: d026 on 24/10/2007 01:42:54 Edited by: d026 on 24/10/2007 01:42:31 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Delphi Disra It was caldari's only positive thing. Now they are in my opinion worse off than mimnitars. If you want them to move dont make them slower than the opponent they are meant to kill. Raven is faster than the plated neutron blaster mega, hundreds of pilots everyday fly the plated neutron bthron. Whine more please. and teh funny thing is. the raven does now more dps from its main weaponery than a mega while having double its range:P it sucks beeing gallente aint it?:) and to delphi stfu and get a clue
Delphi Disra Gallente An Eye For An Eye Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.10.24 01:55:00 - [10] LOL There is no way in a hell any raven could ever beat a properly fitted megathron... i think it's you who needs to get a clue. The mega can fly faster, it can out snipe and out dps due to the fact that the raven could never get in plausible range to kill you. You could just warp off before the torps hit. If you keep the torps to 30k than the raven needs a serious speed boost so that it can actually catch ships unless you want to religate it to POS bashing and POS bashing only.
Lothros Andastar Gallente Imperium Forces United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.24 03:13:00 - [11] Originally by: Delphi Disra The mega can fly faster, What part of raven is faster than a plated blasterthron didnt enter your thick skull? So they reduce torp range and now u want the whole game to change around you? Grow up
Incantare Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.10.24 03:19:00 - [12] I think the new torps changes are fine but the Raven could use some more grid or have torp grid reqs reduced so it has an easier time fitting an mwd.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.24 03:25:00 - [13] Originally by: Incantare I think the new torps changes are fine but the Raven could use some more grid or have torp grid reqs reduced so it has an easier time fitting an mwd. with a buffer tank you can fit a full rack of sieges/webber/tp/mwd without having to resort to fitting mods while still having comparable effective hp like a trimarked / plated mega.
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.10.24 03:27:00 - [14] What noobs were you fighting in a raven that you were hitting targets at 200km anyways? Who honestly sits there that long for you to hit them? Torps are useless for ranged PvP anyways even if they kept them long ranged. Not to mention the base stats I was seeing for the torps aren't that bad for range, Javelins will have a base range around 45km. And don't missle bombardment and projection work on torps? That would give them a 90km range! Though I haven't seen yet the changes to the launchers, aren't they supposed to be getting a big boost in ROF?
Incantare Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.10.24 03:49:00 - [15] Originally by: d026 with a buffer tank you can fit a full rack of sieges/webber/tp/mwd without having to resort to fitting mods while still having comparable effective hp like a trimarked / plated mega. The big difference is that the mega has four pvp utility mids while you only have three. Drop an extender/invuln for a med injector so you aren't dead in the water after a couple mwd cycles / a few med neuts, or fit a warp disruptor, and you suddenly have a good chunk less effective hp. The mega is also fitting a heavy cap booster, good luck fitting that with a mwd, siege and a tank worth talking about. Though since its guns use cap, I'm perfectly fine with that. My main gripe with the grid is that the siege raven is left with two high slots fitted with nothing worth talking about while the neutron mega only loses one.
Lara Roxx Gallente Valkyries of Valhalla	Posted - 2007.10.24 03:49:00 - [16] o noes i cant do my missions as quickly anymore waa waa waa. your completely ignoring the fact that a raven can do over 1000 dps now a 1000!!! and dont give me any of that bull that you cant get in range, plenty of other pilots figured it out, so should you. ____________________________ \|________Sig in a Box_________\|
Delphi Disra Gallente An Eye For An Eye Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.10.24 08:17:00 - [17] Well than how about we remove the megathrons sniping capabilities lets see how you feel than :)
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try	Posted - 2007.10.24 08:27:00 - [18] It is pretty easy to survive a sniping Megathron. You just warp off, just like you do with a Raven trying to snipe. You got cruise missiles for long range and torps for short range. I got Mega Beams for long range and Mega Pulse for short range. If i fit Pulse, I better fit an AB or I can't get in range with every single rat. So I chose when I fit the ship. Long or short. Much damage or less damage. Why should Raven pilots not have to chose?
Amy Wang	Posted - 2007.10.24 08:32:00 - [19] Originally by: Delphi Disra Ravens are the only ships that really use torpedoes, the fact that they are slow as a sloth would make them almost usless when using torpedoes. And ravens are the only ships that really use torpedos. Riiiight, Phoons never use torps and tempests will never fit torps into their spare 2 highs...oh, wait wrong, they do. Only that those ships are hit much harder by the range nerf then the raven, try under 20km torp range on them which is especially painful if your other main weapon system is better used outside of that range. Ravens at least get the 50% velocity bonus for sweet 30km gank range.
Zixxa	Posted - 2007.10.24 08:45:00 - [20] Originally by: sallyr frankly i love the idea of caldari finaly become less of a F1-6 sit back and relax! maby now you might have to move!!! lol but really every other race has a short range high damage alternative bar caldari . . who just has 2 very long range options and the only dissadvantage being that it takes a while to get there! (not that important in a fight where time is not of the essence!) this way torps are finaly like blasters and autocannons and cruse are finaly like rails and howwys! every other ship has to fly to its target to use its close range guns . . .why shouldnt caldari . . remember you still dont have falloff to worry about! Shut up, kid. You do not know what is Caldari. --------------------------------- "Zealot is sniper, because Dominix has better tank" (c) Goumindong
Zixxa	Posted - 2007.10.24 08:54:00 - [21] Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes It is pretty easy to survive a sniping Megathron. You just warp off, just like you do with a Raven trying to snipe. You got cruise missiles for long range and torps for short range. I got Mega Beams for long range and Mega Pulse for short range. If i fit Pulse, I better fit an AB or I can't get in range with every single rat. So I chose when I fit the ship. Long or short. Much damage or less damage. Why should Raven pilots not have to chose? a) Caldari need two separate skill to use short and long range weapons. Try to get it it up to 5. b) Caldari cannot sacrifice damage for range as any turret ship can. c) Caldari can not make instant damage. d) Only missile DPS is heavy decreased by NPC(when ratting/missioning). e) Only missiles are heavy dependent from the target signature f) Only missiles are dependent from the enemy ship speed at any distance in any direction. g) All Caldari ships are slow, heavy and sluggish. Turrets have one drawback: tracking. So now you know why most agressive Alliances in the game rarely use missile boats. You may check AAA, BoB, MC, RA, etc. --------------------------------- "Zealot is sniper, because Dominix has better tank" (c) Goumindong
Karyuudo Tydraad Caldari Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services	Posted - 2007.10.24 09:14:00 - [22] Originally by: Zixxa a) Caldari need two separate skill to use short and long range weapons. Try to get it it up to 5. b) Caldari cannot sacrifice damage for range as any turret ship can. c) Caldari can not make instant damage. d) Only missile DPS is heavy decreased by NPC(when ratting/missioning). e) Only missiles are heavy dependent from the target signature f) Only missiles are dependent from the enemy ship speed at any distance in any direction. g) All Caldari ships are slow, heavy and sluggish. Turrets have one drawback: tracking. So now you know why most agressive Alliances in the game rarely use missile boats. You may check AAA, BoB, MC, RA, etc. a) Missiles require far less SP than gunnery. b) You're hitting equally at all ranges with your high damage ammunition. c) Offset by inability to miss and equal damage at all ranges, as well as ability to choose damage type. d) Ignoring the fact that balancing ships based on how they perform in PVE is ridiculous, this is because the Caldari missile boats completely dominate PVE, even with defender missile spam. e) Not true, turrets deal reduced damage bassed on target sig radius vs the signature resolution of your weapons as well. f) Missile damage is reduced by this, whereas a turret ship is unable to hit at all. g) This is to offset the lack of tracking and obscene range of cruise missiles. Missile boats are not popular in alliance warfare only because targets in fleet battles are far apart and are often dead before your missiles reach the target.
Cytherion	Posted - 2007.10.25 13:51:00 - [23] Tried out my Faction fitted CNR on test for the first time with DG Torp launchers and DG BCUs. Was amazed to see close to 1900 dps output with about 4-5 sec ROF on torp launchers over a 30km range. I also noticed torp explosion radius was 450 I can see torps being extremely deadly in a close range gank, possibly deadlier than a Blasterthron or a Gankageddon As for Ravens being able to get in range of the enemy fast enough or not is a different story.
General Oniell Rulers Of Mankind Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.10.25 14:41:00 - [24] i know that when i go on pos bashing ops, i use torps. just because they have a higher damage output than cruise missiles do. now... this isnt going to be possible if youre gonna put the range to 9km. i mean, seriously. now, i do understand that every race has its long range and short range ammo. and caldari are mostly any range.. my torps are able to hit up to 85-90km or so. my cruise can hit over 140km if memory serves correctly. they dont hit nearly as hard as torps do, but with a great range. one of the most notable differences between missiles and guns/lasers is that the guns, hit as soon as they are fired.. missiles however, you have to sit and wait 5 minutes before you actually hit your target that is 120km away or so.. which gives them ample time to warp out or w/e. with guns, youre gonna hit em if you have the range to do so. missiles already have a downside to em.. the delay between firing and the actual hit. so... sure, go ahead, pull out the ol nerf bat. youre just screwin us caldari over a little more.
Zenobite The Black Fleet	Posted - 2007.10.25 14:56:00 - [25] been using torp raven on the test server and really liking most of the changes, now it can do some real damage against other battleships, i still think the explosion radius is a bit harsh. But aprt from that I'm happy to trade range for rof
Chr0nosX Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.25 15:01:00 - [26] The Torp raven is now awesome and your whining? Why?
Tarazed Aquilae	Posted - 2007.10.25 15:40:00 - [27] Torpedo launchers require far more grid and cpu than cruise launchers do. Blasters require significantly less grid and cpu than railguns do. (I believe this rule holds for other weapons as well.) Short ranged weapons are easier to fit because you have to fit a mwd and a heavy tank if you are going to get into rangeà Except for siege launchers which are much harder to fit. So, if torpedoes get a major range reduction then the launchers should me made much easier to fit. The raven is a shield tanker. With six midslots it can fit a very solid (and very cap hungry) tank. But now itÆll have to fit a mwd to get into range. This takes up a valuable midslot and scarce grid and cpu, it also seriously reduces your capacitor and puts a huge drain on its diminished capacity. And the larger explosion radius of the new torpedoes means that you will need to fit a target painter to do significant damage to anything but other battleships. ThatÆs reasonable I guess, but it costs the raven another midslot. And you need a cap booster to keep your cap alive what with the mwd and a shield booster to feed. There goes another midslot. And your torps are never going to catch most PvP ships anyway, so you are going to need a web. Say goodbye to another midslot. Of course you need at least one sensor booster to lock things in a reasonable amount of time. Goodbye midslot number 5. Then thereÆs the warp scrambler... Guess IÆm going to have to armor tank. But then I lose the damage mods in the lowslots. I also lose any chance to boost my already pathetic speed. If I fit a plate then IÆm going to be painfully slow, even with the mwd. Even in a gang there IÆm going to lose most of my tank just to fit other essential equipment. Remember that I canÆt fit the X-Large shield booster because the mwd and torpedoes are taking so much of my grid and cpuà In all honesty IÆm not even sure I can fit torps, a mwd, and a large shield booster at the same timeà IÆm pretty sure I canÆt if I fit a large cap booster too. I appreciate what CCP is trying to do, but they canÆt turn the Raven into another Blasterthron with these changes. The ships are just fundamentally different. Torpedoes are good at killing big slow targets. Shortening their range and increasing their damage will just make them good at killing big, slow, close targets. ThatÆs not going to help in the age of nano gangs, HACs and Command Ships. Now, if you want to give the Raven a PvP roleà Boost its sensors so it locks targets as fast as a cruiser does. Make them hard to jam/damp while you are at it. Create a new, long ranged, ultra fast, cruise missile that can catch and kill those annoying nanoships. The missile should obviously do less damage than a conventional cruise missile. It could even have some different effects like webbing/scrambling any target it hits for 5 seconds. If you do this, then Ravens are going to be in high demand in PvP.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.10.25 16:09:00 - [28] Originally by: Karyuudo Tydraad a) Missiles require far less SP than gunnery. Actually, I'd like to pick up on that one - it's not entirely the case. It's true to say to get T2 torps, requires less skills than to get T2 rails. However there's actually more skills required to be proficient in all missiles, to spec 4, than there is to be the same level of proficiency with turrets. But back on topic. I think this change is brilliant, and much needed. Ravens have cruise missiles for long range damage, and torps for short range. The raven is fat and slow, but it also has the longest range 'short range' weapon. It needs a TP to get full damage, but the turret ships need a web to be effective. It can't tank and gank, and tackle, but hey, neither can anything else. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Drakinar	Posted - 2007.10.25 16:27:00 - [29] Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes It is pretty easy to survive a sniping Megathron. You just warp off, just like you do with a Raven trying to snipe. You got cruise missiles for long range and torps for short range. I got Mega Beams for long range and Mega Pulse for short range. If i fit Pulse, I better fit an AB or I can't get in range with every single rat. So I chose when I fit the ship. Long or short. Much damage or less damage. Why should Raven pilots not have to chose? a) Caldari need two separate skill to use short and long range weapons. Try to get it it up to 5. b) Caldari cannot sacrifice damage for range as any turret ship can. c) Caldari can not make instant damage. d) Only missile DPS is heavy decreased by NPC(when ratting/missioning). e) Only missiles are heavy dependent from the target signature f) Only missiles are dependent from the enemy ship speed at any distance in any direction. g) All Caldari ships are slow, heavy and sluggish. Turrets have one drawback: tracking. So now you know why most agressive Alliances in the game rarely use missile boats. You may check AAA, BoB, MC, RA, etc. Okay, don't make the mistake of confusing all caldari ships with the raven. Caldari are not just missile users. At the cruiser level you can choose the Moa or the Caracal for effective damage, missiles or guns. At the BC level, ferox or drake, missiles or guns. At the Battleship level, Scorp, Raven, or Rohk, ewar, missiles, or guns. Caldari has the longest range sniping BS in the game, yet all you people seem to do is whine about how your torps are being nerfed. You aren't even the only ones that use torps, as previously stated, so do Typhoons and Tempests. Do you see them whining? If it is such a devastating blow to you that your torps are being changed to the same way other race's weapons systems work, then fly a Rohk with rails or blasters and stop whining. Alternatively, you now have to choose between range or damage just like every other race with your missiles. It's already been this way with heavy missiles, the difference between heavies and HAMs, it's about time that CCP conformed the battleship missile classes to this model aswell.
Futureface01 Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.10.25 17:27:00 - [30] Originally by: Chr0nosX The Torp raven is now awesome and your whining? Why? Simple. Depends on what you use them on. They have been removed from PVE. Not just nerfed, removed. They cant be used. Not with max skills, rigs and implants. Torpedos will not travel far enough to hit an NPC fighting at its desired distance. No MWDs allowed in missions. Torps are NOT awesome now, they're gone now. Removed.... Bye bye Torpedos... I'd say thats justification for people to whine.
Shereza	Posted - 2007.10.25 18:51:00 - [31] Quote: At least allow the raven to stay good at what they do, ratting. If you nerf the torpedoes to only 30k they would become totally useless and caldari nerfed even further, leaving gallante and amarr as the kings. Man... 30km range on torpedos... I'd love that on my AC/torpedo typhoon, especially as it's a mission boat and I get to deal with a lot of webbers that spawn more waves. Quote: torpedos will be extremely usefull (except for mission whoring). and protip: for ratting fit a mwd! Eh, still useful for mission running. About as useful as blasters and ACs in fact and those somehow manage to be useful to some people. Quote: If you want them to move dont make them slower than the opponent they are meant to kill. If you don't want the target moving away from the killer maybe you should have a partner to draw their fire. The only time the target ship will move away from the kill ship is in PvP, and sometimes not even then, if it's locked on to a bait ship. Quote: a) Missiles require far less SP than gunnery. Actually, they don't. To maximize short and long range damage for gunnery on T1 guns it would take roughly 5.7m SP. For T1 missiles in the battleship class it would take 7.5m SP. If you took out cruise missiles and guided missile precision (which isn't supposed to affect rockets, HAMs, and torpedos I believe) then the missile skill cost drops by 2.56m to roughly 5m. Quote: c) Offset by inability to miss and equal damage at all ranges, as well as ability to choose damage type. Actually, you can miss. If the target's running away from you faster than your missiles are flying or you cloak immediately after popping off your missiles they will not hit for even minimal damage. Quote: e) Not true, turrets deal reduced damage bassed on target sig radius vs the signature resolution of your weapons as well. Seeing a laser that did over 1k damage to my dominix do only 250 damage max to an NPC drone makes me cry. I know some of it is resistances but I don't think drones have 75% EM. Quote: g) All Caldari ships are slow, heavy and sluggish. g) This is to offset the lack of tracking and obscene range of cruise missiles. The fact that a caldari missile boat could theoretically run an MWD non-stop while spamming short-range missiles and being very hard to hit by guns (until it gets webbed at which point it'll die faster than other ships I imagine) which most gun using ships can't do is likely another factor to offset their speed/agility issues. Quote: Simple. Depends on what you use them on. They have been removed from PVE. Not just nerfed, removed. They cant be used. Not with max skills, rigs and implants. Torpedos will not travel far enough to hit an NPC fighting at its desired distance. No MWDs allowed in missions. Torps are NOT awesome now, they're gone now. Removed.... Bye bye Torpedos... I must be playing on a different server than you are. Not only are they in the Singularity I played around on but they worked rather darn well on the typhoon I was using, and that was before they fixed the drone bug where they wouldn't attack in empire space.
Futureface01 Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.10.25 19:09:00 - [32] Edited by: Futureface01 on 25/10/2007 19:11:12 Alrighty, despite my better judgement I'll play along and ask: How exactly did you get your Typhoon with a base speed of 150m/s to get within torpedo range of an NPC that wants to fight at a long range such as say a centi plague lord/dark lord? State of the Golem Oct 25, 2007
Shereza	Posted - 2007.10.25 20:05:00 - [33] Quote: How exactly did you get your Typhoon with a base speed of 150m/s to get within torpedo range of an NPC that wants to fight at a long range such as say a centi plague lord/dark lord? 100mn ABII. Even with 2 armor rigs I pull around 400m/s and I just need it on long enough to get into web range. Cap's tight on it but so long as I'm careful it's doable. Of course I've also got a cap injector on it just to help things along in that regard. Not the most elegant solution but it works. Of course my skills are also at a point where I've let T2 hobgoblins from my drake kill 500k bounty battleships and my typhoon is using 5 T1 ogres and 5 T2 hammerheads. At the very least I can send ogres after one BS while I go after another.
Crazy Yuri Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.26 01:16:00 - [34] it would be nice for Zulupark to comment about this again. If they just add a new "assault siege launcher" that either uses the existing skill or making an "Assualt Torpedo" skill that uses them the devs would make both sides of the Torpedo change happy. Right now they are just leaving us players in limbo.
Bohoba Caldari Dragons United Pure.	Posted - 2007.10.26 01:33:00 - [35] Originally by: sallyr frankly i love the idea of caldari finaly become less of a F1-6 sit back and relax! maby now you might have to move!!! lol but really every other race has a short range high damage alternative bar caldari . . who just has 2 very long range options and the only dissadvantage being that it takes a while to get there! (not that important in a fight where time is not of the essence!) this way torps are finaly like blasters and autocannons and cruse are finaly like rails and howwys! every other ship has to fly to its target to use its close range guns . . .why shouldnt caldari . . remember you still dont have falloff to worry about! I laugh at stuff like this rail and blasters have ammo that give them shorter or longer range siege launchers don't have that option 30K is all we get any frig can just sit out past that range and wtfpwn a raven well thats nothing new cause they can do that now as torps don't do enough damage to anything that is moving to even scare a frig away. Warrning Gall I am training gal BS now Nerf bat sure to follow lol The Dark Force is strong in EvE But it will fail Get Into the Game it makes it fun for all
Matiaj	Posted - 2007.10.26 02:36:00 - [36] Edited by: Matiaj on 26/10/2007 02:40:32 Wow. I'm so glad CCP doesn't listen to people like the OP.
Miner Nine	Posted - 2007.10.26 03:00:00 - [37] Edited by: Miner Nine on 26/10/2007 03:01:15 Can any Dev explain to me the torp nerf logic? How do torpedoes = shortrange? You have to train torpedoes to V to get Citadel torpedoes which are use by the Caldari dread. Is the Caldari dread going become a shortrange anti-dread? Or are you just saying we're making Torpedoes short range, cause it's more fun to mess with characters that already use these instead of making a new class of weapon? It's just seems stupid to me to make Torpedoes shortrange, when Citadel Torpedoes are suppose to be long range. I got no problem with changing stuff to make it more balace, but I don't see the problem you're fixxing nor do I think it makes sense to redefine Torpedoes as shortrange, then have it defined longrange in more 'end game' ships. I personally think it should be some new class of Battleship Rockets which are shortrange, then Torps be mid range, then Cruise be long.
HeavyGunz 0331	Posted - 2007.10.26 03:07:00 - [38] Originally by: Matiaj Edited by: Matiaj on 26/10/2007 02:55:40 Cruise missiles are fine for npcing, if you think 30km isn't enough. And torps are much better now for pvp. What's your problem? I hope that CCP won't listen to the handful of whiners who don't care or don't have a clue about pvp at all and just want their torps back to be the ultimate weapon for npcing. The individuals like me who have a corporation of close friends that soley do mission running are going to suffer. We could all fit cruise, I understand that but being the 6 mil sp characters we are we will have to spend a good million on cruise to make it affective against npc bs's. I know for you vets that might not seem like much but its alot of training to me. Its important to point out that I also can't use MWD in missions. But it is advantagous to you pvps which I understand. Making it another type of launcher is an option but that would make a short, med, and long range which no other race has. It sucks, really sucks, but I understand at the same time.
Shereza	Posted - 2007.10.26 05:19:00 - [39] Quote: Can any Dev explain to me the torp nerf logic? How do torpedoes = shortrange? I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess because they were already short-range, because the devs needed a reason to bump up their DPS, or both. Quote: Is the Caldari dread going become a shortrange anti-dread? Isn't that the position the moros would be in if it used the stereotypical "gallente means blasters" fittings? Quote: It's just seems stupid to me to make Torpedoes shortrange, See, there's the problem with your logic. They were already short-range to begin with were they not? Half the range of cruise missiles, no? Quote: nor do I think it makes sense to redefine Torpedoes as shortrange, then have it defined longrange in more 'end game' ships. Now I actually agree with this. The solution is simple though. Make citadel launchers and their ammo for short-range high DPS assaults and implement a replacement long-range capital missile system. Right now missiles are the only capital class weapons that do not have long and short range variants, are they not? Quote: The individuals like me who have a corporation of close friends that soley do mission running are going to suffer. We could all fit cruise, I understand that but being the 6 mil sp characters we are we will have to spend a good million on cruise to make it affective against npc bs's. Most of the mission runners in my corporation who use ravens already use cruise missiles and I haven't heard them complaining about how slow L4s are for them. Boring yes, but not many complaints about slow. Quote: I know for you vets that might not seem like much but its alot of training to me. Its important to point out that I also can't use MWD in missions. You need missile launcher operation 5 and heavy missile 3 for cruise missiles but only launcher op 4 for torpedoes. That extra 176k or so SP is quite a hefty chunk (3.7 days at 2k SP/hour) but not a massive one, and the training time to cruise 4 is, presuming my math off the top of my head is right, maybe 8 more days. A bit heavier on the training but still not as bad as, for example, battleship 5. At any rate, you can also use webbers and ABs in missions and if you mission with partners you can use tacklers if so inclined. For example, an ishkur with a 10mn T2 AB can pull 1676m/s fairly easily. Not as good as a "real" interceptor but for a mission zone that'll do for a tackler if it's worthwhile to field one. Also, FWIW, you can use MWDs in about 3-4 missions and, if CCP yanked their top end from their bottom end in terms of mission design (though having to move something like 120km3 of ore for an L4 "encounter" mission on the test server makes me doubt it) there might be more MWD-compatible missions in the new releases. Not trying to dog you or anything, just that from my perspective it's a case of, "Okay, they're making it harder for me to do what I've been doing, so be it." I've spent years playing games where I take styles that often end up getting tweaked or nerfed by GMs/Devs trying to "make things better" for other people into a much harder way to play than they used to be so I have a good idea what you're feeling. Branch out, adapt, and don't let yourself get locked into one play style. I've used (many solo, several in groups/gangs) a machariel, osprey, ferox, drake, dominix, hyperion, myrmidon, caracal, abaddon, typhoon (test server), raven, harbinger, astarte, ishtar, ishkur (I think), and even a cormorant (in a combat, not a salvage, role) in L4 mission. It might not get missions done any faster but variety truly is the spice of life, and it makes it harder for any nerf to be seriously damaging to you. I'm trained to level 3 in all battleships and have all launchers/turrets trained up (minimally at least) and none of the listed nerfs for the Rev3 update truly affects me at all to any large degree.
Futureface01 Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.10.26 08:02:00 - [40] Well, lets be fair. Whenever someone cites the DPS of a ship, they almost never cite the DPS using standard T1 weapons. They either cite DPS using T2 or high-end faction loot. For 6m skillpoint characters they arent just out 3 days, they're out at least a month to get the new skill to level 5, because after all they will be balanced and criticized as if they were using T2 loot anyways. That being said, having both cant hurt. But being a young character, and literally needing every single bloody skill you can get your hands on just to survive ... ugh. Dont wanna do that again! I can understand why they'd be saying "WTF" if someone told'em they need to get MLO5 and CM5 now too, ASAP, or else they have to go back to level 3 missions! ---------- Word of advice to ya'll low skillpoint mission runners: MMO Developers almost never change their mind on nerfs. You have a better chance of getting hit by a comet on your way to cash in your 300 million dollar winning lottery ticket. Start training MLO5 and CM5 right now, with any luck you'll be almost there when Rev3 releases. It sucks, but if you hold your breath for them to give you torpedos back, you'll die breathless. ---------- State of the Golem Oct 25, 2007
Calimor Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.26 09:27:00 - [41] Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 24/10/2007 00:55:41 torpedos will be extremely usefull (except for mission whoring). and protip: for ratting fit a mwd! Do you even rat? Some Angel rats (Machariels) mwd faster than a Raven could ever hope to.
Esmenet	Posted - 2007.10.26 11:10:00 - [42] Edited by: Esmenet on 26/10/2007 11:10:46 Edited by: Esmenet on 26/10/2007 11:10:02 Originally by: Shereza 100mn ABII. Even with 2 armor rigs I pull around 400m/s and I just need it on long enough to get into web range. Cap's tight on it but so long as I'm careful it's doable. Of course I've also got a cap injector on it just to help things along in that regard. Not the most elegant solution but it works. Of course my skills are also at a point where I've let T2 hobgoblins from my drake kill 500k bounty battleships and my typhoon is using 5 T1 ogres and 5 T2 hammerheads. At the very least I can send ogres after one BS while I go after another. For a typical raven pilot: Sacrificing 2-3 midslots on a shield tanked ship. Spending long time getting into range, while taking more damage on a substantially nerfed tank. You are probably better off with cruise.
Ayrin Soun	Posted - 2007.10.26 14:04:00 - [43] I think the idea is to make a raven deadly to close range in pvp but they forget the mission raven... With AB the raven isnt fast enough in a mission so that can be in close range to the damage dealers and he has to destroy all the frigates first so they can catch the BS later and all this time it must be tank all the NPC that fired on him... The bottom is that it will be a very good pvp ship but they destroy the best ship for npc lvl 4 & 5 missions. Bye bye my lovely NPC CNR... PS EVE is not only PVP i hope CCP dont forget that
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.26 14:18:00 - [44] Originally by: Calimor Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 24/10/2007 00:55:41 torpedos will be extremely usefull (except for mission whoring). and protip: for ratting fit a mwd! Do you even rat? Some Angel rats (Machariels) mwd faster than a Raven could ever hope to. Then you are screwed i suppose:)

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