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Malachi Nefzen
Caldari
Insane Decision
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Posted - 2007.10.25 12:51:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Malachi Nefzen on 25/10/2007 12:52:37
After testing these (glem/pally) things out a bit I have to say, they suck.
Golem is worthless it needs:
BS: 5% ROF & 10% Missile Velocity
Marauders: 7.5% Shield Boost & 10% BS Missile Explosion Radius
Pally is also a worthless needs:
BS: 5% ROF & 5% Max Capacitor
Marauders: 7.5% Laser Tracking & 7.5% Armor Rep Amount
This would bring them both into line with thier rauders ounterparts I think.
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Carl Zeiss
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.10.25 12:55:00 -
[2]
Golem will be the next mission running standard ship.
Just imagine CNR with embedded shield boost amp and explosion velocity rig. Yeah and bonus to painter:)
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Which slot do I use for an exotic dancer? |
Damned Force
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Posted - 2007.10.25 13:02:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Damned Force on 25/10/2007 13:02:49
 Originally by: Carl Zeiss
Golem will be the next mission running standard ship.
Just imagine CNR with embedded shield boost amp and explosion velocity rig. Yeah and bonus to painter:)
No it would not. Is skill intensive, tanking not much better than a faction fitted CNR, do much less DPS, Would cost the same or more than a CNR......
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS....
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.10.25 13:27:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Carl Zeiss
Golem will be the next mission running standard ship.
Just imagine CNR with embedded shield boost amp and explosion velocity rig. Yeah and bonus to painter:)
it wont because the cnr kills faster (with cruisemissiles)
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SiLeNTFoRCe
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Posted - 2007.10.26 01:01:00 -
[5]
Golem does need some major assistance. Caldari took a major hit when our Tier 3 BS was the rokh giving us no chance to compete with something like the hyperion, and now they've done it again.
A CNR would do much more dmg then the golem and would prolly be a better bet even with the t2 resistance of the golem (which is only going to be a very slight difference after normal tank is applied).
The ship may be set rigged for "long" warfare but still wouldn't be worth it in the long run. Doesn't matter how long you can sit there and fight for if you can't kill anything.
%5 ROF bonus is deff necessary!!! (dont want to dominate just want to be able to put up a fight)
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Gamesguy
Amarr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.26 01:13:00 -
[6]
Originally by: SiLeNTFoRCe
Golem does need some major assistance. Caldari took a major hit when our Tier 3 BS was the rokh giving us no chance to compete with something like the hyperion, and now they've done it again.
A CNR would do much more dmg then the golem and would prolly be a better bet even with the t2 resistance of the golem (which is only going to be a very slight difference after normal tank is applied).
The ship may be set rigged for "long" warfare but still wouldn't be worth it in the long run. Doesn't matter how long you can sit there and fight for if you can't kill anything.
%5 ROF bonus is deff necessary!!! (dont want to dominate just want to be able to put up a fight)
A golem with a 5% rof bonus would do 1500 DPS, capless, out to 30km.
Just no.
Btw, none of the other marauders do more dps than their t1 counterpart(vargur is basically a maelstrom) except the overpowered Kronos.
J
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS....
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.10.26 03:27:00 -
[7]
Edited by: d026 on 26/10/2007 03:30:08
Originally by: Gamesguy
Originally by: SiLeNTFoRCe
Golem does need some major assistance. Caldari took a major hit when our Tier 3 BS was the rokh giving us no chance to compete with something like the hyperion, and now they've done it again.
A CNR would do much more dmg then the golem and would prolly be a better bet even with the t2 resistance of the golem (which is only going to be a very slight difference after normal tank is applied).
The ship may be set rigged for "long" warfare but still wouldn't be worth it in the long run. Doesn't matter how long you can sit there and fight for if you can't kill anything.
%5 ROF bonus is deff necessary!!! (dont want to dominate just want to be able to put up a fight)
A golem with a 5% rof bonus would do 1500 DPS, capless, out to 30km.
Just no.
Btw, none of the other marauders do more dps than their t1 counterpart(vargur is basically a maelstrom) except the overpowered Kronos.
J
my cnr does +1,4k dps out to 30k to. (dg fit tough) and the marauders do almost exclusively TIII dps. (well golem is weirdo cuz raven does more base dps than rokh and paly just suxorz:)
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Zolian
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Posted - 2007.10.26 03:33:00 -
[8]
The painting bonus blows:
In PvE, with the new range of torps cruise is going to be more efficient.
In PvP, why would you fit a painter on such an expensive ship when you can have an armor tanking gang mate do it instead?
I don't think it needs 5% RoF, that would be over the top (although... kronos  ) but 5% flight time like the cerb would be great imo.
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Incantare
Caldari
Kernel of War
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.10.26 05:17:00 -
[9]
I don't like the Golem. It doesn't seem worth the investment to me. Every marauder gets two bonuses to hitting small targets (maybe not the minnie one actually) but I would trade the painting bonus for webbing in a heartbeat. That I would actually give up a tanking slot for.
Otherwise, nah, 7 slot monster injected tank it is. The explosion velocity bonus is pretty lame as well.
I say this from a PvP perspective, now for someone who only uses the ship for missions it might be great but I don't think Caldari need another dedicated mission boat, the minnie and moreso Gallente marauders certainly aren't and I was hoping for a ship that would be on par.
Though it could be worse, it could be the paladin  .
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.26 06:15:00 -
[10]
The explosion velocity, painting bonus, and extra med will make the ship hit a lot harder than the raven.
Consider, the Golem can pain 56% sig increase on ships not using MWDs for full damage nearly down to battlecruisers on siege missiles with just one TP.
As well, ships moving fast will move ever so slightly down the explosion falloff scheme, resulting in about a 6% dps increase for torps against ships going 1000m/s.
For cruises this is even larger.
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Zolian
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Posted - 2007.10.26 06:20:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Zolian
In PvP, why would you fit a painter on such an expensive ship when you can have an armor tanking gang mate do it instead?
Same goes for a web.
Facing a Kronos those 2 bonuses will not help. At all.
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ISno god
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Posted - 2007.10.26 06:40:00 -
[12]
got less mod slots then a raven, and 1 less low.. id like to se some extra rof, and its about time we get a good ship not only pve
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Futureface01
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.26 07:30:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Futureface01 on 26/10/2007 07:31:59
Originally by: Gamesguy
A golem with a 5% rof bonus would do 1500 DPS, capless, out to 30km.
Just no.
Btw, none of the other marauders do more dps than their t1 counterpart(vargur is basically a maelstrom) except the overpowered Kronos.
J
Why would you be concerned with Golems in PVP? Someone you know planning on flying a 1bill+ Battleship in PVP? Because that 1500 dps at 30km is 0-DPS in a mission as many NPCs dont fight 30km or less. In the current state of torpedos, even Javelins aint gonna cut it inside a mission, and currently we arent able to just MWD up to an NPC in a mission..... So ATM your "1500 DPS at 30km" can only happen in a PVP encounter, and in PVP thats one HELL of an expensive ship to go out in. Consider also how easy it can be jammed. At best it might be part of a fleet, but is someone really going to choose a Golem in PVP over other 1bil+ isk ships?
And the complaining about the Golem is based on a lot of things. One of which being its DPS is far less than the CNR, and about on Par with the standard Raven.....until you factor in NPC defender missiles that is.
I'm hoping CCP just didnt consider that and it'll be fixed.
State of the Golem Oct 25, 2007 |
Futureface01
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.26 07:41:00 -
[14]
Heh I also noticed three posts suggesting the Kronos is OP. Hell I dunno if it is or isnt, I stopped caring when I found out that it was a gunboat. 
Given Marauders are focused towards mission runners, fear not Kronos-Haters! I doubt that a majority of Mission-running Galentee pilots have their Tech 2 Large Hybrid turrets trained. 
I'm sure it'll be nerfed to obvilion before my Dominix Drone pilot could get the 3-4 months of gunnery skills to use the Kronos right... 
State of the Golem Oct 25, 2007 |
Gamesguy
Amarr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.26 07:54:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Futureface01
Edited by: Futureface01 on 26/10/2007 07:31:59
Originally by: Gamesguy
A golem with a 5% rof bonus would do 1500 DPS, capless, out to 30km.
Just no.
Btw, none of the other marauders do more dps than their t1 counterpart(vargur is basically a maelstrom) except the overpowered Kronos.
J
Why would you be concerned with Golems in PVP? Someone you know planning on flying a 1bill+ Battleship in PVP? Because that 1500 dps at 30km is 0-DPS in a mission as many NPCs dont fight 30km or less. In the current state of torpedos, even Javelins aint gonna cut it inside a mission, and currently we arent able to just MWD up to an NPC in a mission..... So ATM your "1500 DPS at 30km" can only happen in a PVP encounter, and in PVP thats one HELL of an expensive ship to go out in. Consider also how easy it can be jammed. At best it might be part of a fleet, but is someone really going to choose a Golem in PVP over other 1bil+ isk ships?
And the complaining about the Golem is based on a lot of things. One of which being its DPS is far less than the CNR, and about on Par with the standard Raven.....until you factor in NPC defender missiles that is.
I'm hoping CCP just didnt consider that and it'll be fixed.
Half my corp is going to buy one of the new BS for pvp, so... you don't know wtf you're talkinga about?
With a single eccm you kick your sensor str up to 27-28, not hard to jam after all. And a 1500 dps ship that has 30km capless weapons is just plain unbalanced.
Complaining about expense seriously means nothing. People took 1bil isk vindicators with 2bil deadspace fittings out to pvp, people took billion+ machs out to pvp. Saying it costs 1 bil and therefore should be stupidly overpowering is the most ******** logic ever.
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Gamesguy
Amarr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.26 07:58:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Futureface01
Heh I also noticed three posts suggesting the Kronos is OP. Hell I dunno if it is or isnt, I stopped caring when I found out that it was a gunboat.
Given Marauders are focused towards mission runners, fear not Kronos-Haters! I doubt that a majority of Mission-running Galentee pilots have their Tech 2 Large Hybrid turrets trained.
I'm sure it'll be nerfed to obvilion before my Dominix Drone pilot could get the 3-4 months of gunnery skills to use the Kronos right...
Are you insane or something? The Kronos is overpowering for pvp. You seriously cant understand that people are more than willing to fork out a bil for a pwnmobile like the kronos?
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Kcel Chim
Caldari
Arcane Technologies
The Five
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Posted - 2007.10.26 08:06:00 -
[17]
the golem can outclass ravens and cnrs.
Its an option not a must have. It depends what you prefer to do really.
It should always outclass a standard t1 raven when it comes to dmg, tank and other advantages. It does that just fine.
Has one more medslot, more dmg or equal dmg, far better tank and the ability to use its cargo for capinjectors hence freeing more slots up (no powerdiags no caprigs) for even more tank on missile rigs.
Compared to a cnr it might be abit slower on dps but "by build" has a harder tank which can hold better and take more dmg and for soloplayers it has the nice 10 targets lock, tractor beam bonus. Even with a 2nd acc destroyer 40km to a can will take awhile with an ab and expanders.
Dont make the mistake and compare "all faction gear" setups. Not everyone has those and they should not be the idea behind giving a new ship. A golem with t2 fit IS a valid alternative to a faction fitted cnr or raven and prolly alot cheaper (on current prices).
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Axos V
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Posted - 2007.10.26 08:07:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Axos V on 26/10/2007 08:07:53
TBH my personal opinion is that we, the Caldari, should of had a dedicated pvp t2 bs... not anothe mission running boat.
For a while now I've heard comments that Caldari are being nerfed due to their missioning ability... so why make another mission ship ?
Everyone knows Caldaris weakness is pvp... so why not adjust the Golem to be our pvp boat. As for the comments about missiles needing no cap and so high dps would be unfair... Caldari are shield tankers, shield tanks eat cap quicker than armour tanks. If we fit a cap injector our tank is weakened. Armour tankers can do this without weakening their tank. Thats why Caldaris weapon of choice uses no cap.
So yeah. I request that we have that 5% ROF bonus. Give us a ship that can deal some 1500dps at close range. OR give us a missile that deals extra damage but uses cap to be launched. Either way Caldari need the ability to deal high dps at close range to be on par with Gallante (well closer anyway).
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Futureface01
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.26 08:09:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Futureface01 on 26/10/2007 08:12:09
Edited by: Futureface01 on 26/10/2007 08:10:56
Well see there is your logic. ---> @ Gamesguy
It does X in PVP so its gonna stay broke in PVE.
I guess that leaves me with 2 questions.
1) Why does PVP take priority when it comes to our ship? The only ships optimized for mission runners to ever be released since the games creation?
2) Why cant it be fixed in PVE then, and have them come up with a creative way to limit it in PVP? Its just as downright ******** for the ship to do 450-500 dps in PVE as it is for it to to 1500 dps in PVP. (Talking about the Golem, btw... Like I said I havent bothered researching/caring about the Kronos a *gunboat*)
State of the Golem Oct 25, 2007 |
Gamesguy
Amarr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.26 08:15:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Axos V
Everyone knows Caldaris weakness is pvp... so why not adjust the Golem to be our pvp boat. As for the comments about missiles needing no cap and so high dps would be unfair... Caldari are shield tankers, shield tanks eat cap quicker than armour tanks.
Which is a lie. Since shield tanking is actually more cap efficient than armor tanking.
Quote:
If we fit a cap injector our tank is weakened. Armour tankers can do this without weakening their tank.
And shield tankers can add damage mods without weakening their tank, armor tanks cannot, its called a balance.
Quote:
Thats why Caldaris weapon of choice uses no cap.
Yes hybrids use no cap.
Quote:
So yeah. I request that we have that 5% ROF bonus. Give us a ship that can deal some 1500dps at close range. OR give us a missile that deals extra damage but uses cap to be launched. Either way Caldari need the ability to deal high dps at close range to be on par with Gallante (well closer anyway).
30km is NOT close range, and 1500 dps is a freaking megathron with officer magstab level damage. It order to do this the mega uses quite a bit of cap, and has an optimal of like 3km, in addition to not being able to fit any sort of active tank(best it can do is plates and dcu).
With capless weapons you should be comparing to autocannons not blasters or lasers(although autocannons outdamage lasers). With 30km range you should be looking at autocannon with barrage level dmg, when the current raven deals more damage with 6 torps out to 30km than the megathron does with 7 neutron blasters and void at 3km.
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Gamesguy
Amarr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.26 08:19:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Futureface01
[
Well see there is your logic. ---> @ Gamesguy
It does X in PVP so its gonna stay broke in PVE.
I guess that leaves me with 2 questions.
1) Why does PVP take priority when it comes to our ship? The only ships optimized for mission runners to ever be released since the games creation?
Because eve is a pvp game, the devs have said it many times. Mission running is a side profession that happens to use a lot of the same skills and ships as pvp ships.
Quote:
2) Why cant it be fixed in PVE then, and have them come up with a creative way to limit it in PVP? Its just as downright ******** for the ship to do 450-500 dps in PVE as it is for it to to 1500 dps in PVP. (Talking about the Golem, btw... Like I said I havent bothered researching/caring about the Kronos a *gunboat*)
Because Caldari really doesnt need any more help in PvE? Are you seriously whining because you think the golem wont be as good as the CNR at missions? When everyone else absolutely struggles at them? You ever try doing a mission with an apoc instead of a raven?
In addition, I'd love to see how the Golem would be worse, since it has 1 more mid plus a free shield boost amp that isnt stacking penalized.
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Futureface01
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.26 08:28:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Because Caldari really doesnt need any more help in PvE? Are you seriously whining because you think the golem wont be as good as the CNR at missions? When everyone else absolutely struggles at them? You ever try doing a mission with an apoc instead of a raven?
In addition, I'd love to see how the Golem would be worse, since it has 1 more mid plus a free shield boost amp that isnt stacking penalized.
Whining, no. Summarizing issues currently on the latest test build as it pertains to mission runners, yes. Why do you attack a straw man? You knew full well the problem with the Golem is "less" DPS in missions, and yet you point to its tank and call me a whiner. Wtf is your problem, seriously? Yeah, the Golem tank rocks. So do all the Marauders. We know that, but thanks.
The GOLEM has a PVE-DPS problem. There are people like me pointing this out in hopes that on this "Game Development Forum" that an actual game developer will read the analysis and take it from there.
State of the Golem Oct 25, 2007 |
Gamesguy
Amarr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.26 08:37:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Futureface01
Originally by: Gamesguy
Because Caldari really doesnt need any more help in PvE? Are you seriously whining because you think the golem wont be as good as the CNR at missions? When everyone else absolutely struggles at them? You ever try doing a mission with an apoc instead of a raven?
In addition, I'd love to see how the Golem would be worse, since it has 1 more mid plus a free shield boost amp that isnt stacking penalized.
Whining, no. Summarizing issues currently on the latest test build as it pertains to mission runners, yes. Why do you attack a straw man? You knew full well the problem with the Golem is "less" DPS in missions, and yet you point to its tank and call me a whiner. Wtf is your problem, seriously? Yeah, the Golem tank rocks. So do all the Marauders. We know that, but thanks.
The GOLEM has a PVE-DPS problem. There are people like me pointing this out in hopes that on this "Game Development Forum" that an actual game developer will read the analysis and take it from there.
The golem has a pve-dps problem, when it does exactly the same dps the raven.
Yes I would call that whining.
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StonerReakingHavok
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Posted - 2007.10.26 09:01:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Gamesguy
The golem has a pve-dps problem, when it does exactly the same dps the raven.
Yes I would call that whining.
Wrong. Your not factoring in that you can not use Torpedos in missions in Rev3. When we load with cruises, at least 1 missile per volley is shot by NPC defender missiles. (More if your fighting Rogue drones, less on some factions)
#############################
------------
Raven-------
------------
6 * 1.25 = 7.5 (6 launchers, 25 ROF -- Raven)
1 Missile per volley (6) are shot down, nullifying 16.66667% of DPS. For simplicity I'll round to the nearest whole number. 17.
7.5 * (1.00-.17) = 6.225
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Golem-------
------------
4 * 2 = 8 (4 Launchers, 100% Damage)
1 Missile per volley (4) is shot down, nullifying 25% of DPS.
8 * (1.00-.25) = 6.00
##########################
As long as Torpedos are AWOL in missions, you must compute DPS based on Cruise missiles. You can say the Golem has a better tank, the Golem has an extra mid (one less low too), you can say the Golem uses less ammo, you can say the Golem is more versatile, you can say the Golem has a better cap recharge rate.... All these things you can say and be accurate.
You can not say the Golems DPS = The Ravens. Its less than the Ravens in Rev3. Its a considerable amount less than the CNR in Rev3. How many T1 BS's out-dps their T2 Marauder Counterpart for their primary role?
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Gamesguy
Amarr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.26 11:11:00 -
[25]
Primary role? Where in the raven's description does it say "mission runner's ship"? Please.
Defenders a problem with NPCs? Then simply give the Golem's missiles a hp bonus, or simply reduce NPC defender spam. Problem solved without giving it a ridiculous amount of dps that would be completely unbalancing.
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sahtila
principle of motion
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.26 11:56:00 -
[26]
Originally by: StonerReakingHavok
You can not say the Golems DPS = The Ravens. Its less than the Ravens in Rev3. Its a considerable amount less than the CNR in Rev3. How many T1 BS's out-dps their T2 Marauder Counterpart for their primary role?
Golem dps is pretty much same as raven even with defenders taken account... maybe you should study how npc defender firing works before posting loads of useless and totally wrong math?
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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.10.26 12:23:00 -
[27]
The only solution to the "Golem is not as good a mission runner than the CNR" problem is to nerf the CNR.
Said the CNR pilot.
The Golem is also the only Marauder to use a recognized mission runner weapons system. We don't have a drone boat for Gallente, instead we have three turret ships that will fail most mightily at killing anything efficiently that doesn't want to hang around in web range.
These are not mission running ships. Mission runners don't fit webs, cruise fitted CNR's don't fit target painters, only the Amarr and Minmatar use turrets in missions and only if they haven't cross trained.
Golem makes a nice solowtfpwnmobile with the new torps though, it'll chew through anything sub-battleship that isn't speedtanked and will have a huge range advantage over most close range battleship set-ups. Add a separate tackler and no other battleship comes close to it's pure pwnage... except maybe the Raven.
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Axos V
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Posted - 2007.10.26 13:03:00 -
[28]
Maybe you should understand the principle of multiple %'s.
(It's standard GCSE math)
Lets make it simple
1 missile from the Golem = 2 from a Raven
Lets say the chance for a defender to hit is 25%
So there's 25% chance that a Golem missile is destroyed
Where as there's a 6.25% that both Raven missiles are destroyed (25% x 25%)
Chances that both surive
Golem = 75%
Raven = 56.25%
Chance that 1 is destroyed
Golem = 0%
Raven = 37.5%
Lets now factor that over the equivilent of 100missiles (so the Golem gets 50)
So the Golem is 75% effective
The Raven is 75% effective (56.25% + (37.5%/2)) divide 37.5% by 2 as only 1 missile hits.
But we all know the most probably usually happens b4 the bad happens (except for where ecm is concerned)
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Buyerr
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Posted - 2007.10.26 13:20:00 -
[29]
people get there numbers out of thin air sometimes :S
the fact is that in a fight against any other T2 battleship the golem and pally sucks REALLY bad..
NO the golems dps is no where near 1500 in actual combat (cause radius etc etc etc. thing i do not care to explain if you read your stuff and done YOUR calculations you would know).
besides that there is a lot of other facts that have been mentioned in a lot of other post that is the reason why these sucks compared to the other T2 bs's... although the T2 bs's in general is a utterly WASTED! of programming time... what a let down ccp....
sigh...
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Kamikaaazi
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.10.26 13:25:00 -
[30]
did anyone check golems PG? It cant be fitted for pvp. No room for 4 siege, mwd and cap injector. If you fit it with cruises then i has 300 dps before bcs-s and thats ****. Worthless ship if you ask me.
yarr |
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