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OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
128
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 19:48:00 -
[31] - Quote
As someone who always pays for gametime, I don't really see the issue. Nobody has a right to play for free. Any other MMO makes you pay no matter what, this one gives you an option. I like that.
I also like that I can legally buy ISK if my incompetent ass goes afk in a Level 4 with my pimped mission boat. Regulating PLEX prices would be stupid for CCP. If they limit the value of their product, they will sell less of it.
Also, I have doubt about how many of these PLEX-only players are actually distinct individuals. Rather, I imagine a large percentage are alts. As such, them desubbing doesn't really affect gameplay very much as the human can only play so many accounts at one time. Many are just sitting there ticking along and training. I doubt there would be a huge decrease in the number of actual humans playing the game.
TL;DR Quit whining and find enough cash to pay, or get better so you can buy your PLEX. |

Specctor
Sicarius. Sicarius..
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 19:57:00 -
[32] - Quote
OllieNorth wrote:As someone who always pays for gametime, I don't really see the issue. Nobody has a right to play for free. Any other MMO makes you pay no matter what, this one gives you an option. I like that.
I also like that I can legally buy ISK if my incompetent ass goes afk in a Level 4 with my pimped mission boat. Regulating PLEX prices would be stupid for CCP. If they limit the value of their product, they will sell less of it.
Also, I have doubt about how many of these PLEX-only players are actually distinct individuals. Rather, I imagine a large percentage are alts. As such, them desubbing doesn't really affect gameplay very much as the human can only play so many accounts at one time. Many are just sitting there ticking along and training. I doubt there would be a huge decrease in the number of actual humans playing the game.
TL;DR Quit whining and find enough cash to pay, or get better so you can buy your PLEX.
3 accounts payed for by -ú sir so nope im not a disgruntled I cant pay for my account person......
|

Specctor
Sicarius. Sicarius..
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 20:03:00 -
[33] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Specctor wrote:"PLEX is one of the biggest subscription methods in EVE"
That is a quote from the csm meeting minuets and the topic was started by ccp.
The fact is people can walk away if they cant pay via isk or cash.... the problem is its a question potentially thousands of people will have to ask them selves in the up and coming Plexment Day,
Concequeses of a mass player Subscription break are potentially Game ending what if 10k people said i cant be arsed working so hard for my plex all the time its booring and because my mortgage has gone up i cant afford to play eve so i guess ill have to stop playing eve alltogether....
Thats my point thats the problem with unchecked plex inflation.
Capitalisum is inherently flawed because it requires constant growth and Inflation to Work, the only difference in eve is that people can and will walk away if they choose to. This whole argument is flawed. Everyone pays for EVE. If you pay for your gametime with a PLEX, someone else shelled out $15 for you. If anything, the players who can only afford to play EVE via PLEX actually COST CCP potential revenue. When someone buy's a GTC and coverts to PLEX, CCP makes say $30. now if those PLEX sit in game and never get redeemed for gametime. OR if they get blown up. That is FREE MONEY for CCP. (sort of). Basically CCP got $30 which was used for extra internet pixels. Now if someone comes along and uses that PLEX to extend their gametime, CCP now lost a potential $15 that the user otherwise would have spent to extend their gametime. So if you have a player who only plays via PLEX, and would quit otherwise, CCP isn't technically losing money from them quitting. CCP doesn't make any money from people who redeem PLEX. They make money from people who buy GTC and turn them into PLEX.
"It must be stated that contrary to public perception, it is in CCPGÇÖs interest to have the PLEX prices low (as opposed to high) because of the number of users using that subscription method. There is no guarantee that those users will switch over to other methods could they not afford PLEX with ISK. Nor is it in CCPGÇÖs interest that users have to grind more in order to maintain their subscription method should the price of PLEX go up GÇô using more of their time in the game to pay for PLEX and not to enrich the EVE environment. CCP is therefore closely monitoring both the PLEX trade and the economy in general, very closely."
The bottom of page 9 of the csm minuets Sir.
I like the part about enriching the enviroment which is perhaps another problem ccp is adressing alltogether f less people had to grind the more they would pvp or perhaps settle in new areas of space and start there own eve chapter, rather than the obvious work for plex slavery which is currently insuing. |

Bad Bobby
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
16
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 20:06:00 -
[34] - Quote
Specctor wrote:Really Ten thousand active people leaving the game ill say it again ten thousand active people leaving the game would make the rest of us all better off??? Potentially, yes.
For one, 10k less PLEX consumers would lower PLEX price. That being the actual core issue you are discussing.
For two, 10k pathetic whiney drama queens is no great loss to the community. It would take many years to use up the current stockpiles anyway.
Specctor wrote:base line matierials where the sheer mass of competition keep the price low would sky rocket... Which would mean that people gathering those materials could afford PLEX more easily.
I think a key issue with your arguments is that you do not have the beginnings of a clue as to how the EVE market works. You are just running about going "THE SKY IS FALLING" to us because you are scared by some bad dreams you had. |

Specctor
Sicarius. Sicarius..
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 20:15:00 -
[35] - Quote
Ofcourse i understand !!!
I buy 2 caracalls from you which means 1 guy whom mined that ore gets a percentage of my isk and yours also the guy whos buying the minerals and shipping them from that guy who mined them in the first place makes a cut who inturn makes a cut from you when you buy something els hes buying and selling for a marginal profit on the market....behind all this there is a Goon member whom has secretly bought all of the rest of the caricalls and will keep on buying them untill we all pay well over the odds for carricals and have to go fly gaylente instead....
See crystal clear understanding their sir.... |

Bad Bobby
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
16
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 20:39:00 -
[36] - Quote
Ok, so apply your crystal clear understanding to this:
Quote:1bill per plex scenario where the estimated two thirds of players whom pay by plex can no longer afford plexes from their monthly grin What happens to the demand for PLEX if these "two thirds of players whom pay by plex" are no longer buying PLEX.
What will happen to the price of PLEX as a result of that effect on demand? |

Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
133
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 20:39:00 -
[37] - Quote
Specctor wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:Specctor wrote:"PLEX is one of the biggest subscription methods in EVE"
That is a quote from the csm meeting minuets and the topic was started by ccp.
The fact is people can walk away if they cant pay via isk or cash.... the problem is its a question potentially thousands of people will have to ask them selves in the up and coming Plexment Day,
Concequeses of a mass player Subscription break are potentially Game ending what if 10k people said i cant be arsed working so hard for my plex all the time its booring and because my mortgage has gone up i cant afford to play eve so i guess ill have to stop playing eve alltogether....
Thats my point thats the problem with unchecked plex inflation.
Capitalisum is inherently flawed because it requires constant growth and Inflation to Work, the only difference in eve is that people can and will walk away if they choose to. This whole argument is flawed. Everyone pays for EVE. If you pay for your gametime with a PLEX, someone else shelled out $15 for you. If anything, the players who can only afford to play EVE via PLEX actually COST CCP potential revenue. When someone buy's a GTC and coverts to PLEX, CCP makes say $30. now if those PLEX sit in game and never get redeemed for gametime. OR if they get blown up. That is FREE MONEY for CCP. (sort of). Basically CCP got $30 which was used for extra internet pixels. Now if someone comes along and uses that PLEX to extend their gametime, CCP now lost a potential $15 that the user otherwise would have spent to extend their gametime. So if you have a player who only plays via PLEX, and would quit otherwise, CCP isn't technically losing money from them quitting. CCP doesn't make any money from people who redeem PLEX. They make money from people who buy GTC and turn them into PLEX. "It must be stated that contrary to public perception, it is in CCPGÇÖs interest to have the PLEX prices low (as opposed to high) because of the number of users using that subscription method. There is no guarantee that those users will switch over to other methods could they not afford PLEX with ISK. Nor is it in CCPGÇÖs interest that users have to grind more in order to maintain their subscription method should the price of PLEX go up GÇô using more of their time in the game to pay for PLEX and not to enrich the EVE environment. CCP is therefore closely monitoring both the PLEX trade and the economy in general, very closely." The bottom of page 9 of the csm minuets Sir. I like the part about enriching the enviroment which is perhaps another problem ccp is adressing alltogether f less people had to grind the more they would pvp or perhaps settle in new areas of space and start there own eve chapter, rather than the obvious work for plex slavery which is currently insuing.
Yes, I actually read the entire PLEX section, rather than the one quote out of context. And yes I agree PLEX has a danger for market manipulation and so forth.
But it does not change the hard fact that CCP does not make any money from the guy who uses a plex for gametime. None, zero, nada. They make money from the guy who bought the GTC and turned it into a PLEX.
Now those PLEX players are important in the sense that they are buyers for the people that purchase GTC's So yes there has to be a balance between the two.
I guess at this point the real question is what is this thread really about at this point. If I may try to distille down your arguments (you can correct me if I am wrong), your original arguments for this thread revolved around.
1. The danger of imminent PLEX inflation (1bil isk PLEX) 2. A possible solution being an artifical cap on PLEX pricing.
at this point it seems
1. PLEX inflation is obviously a possibility, but the overall effects on the game at this point is largely wild speculation. 2. As you mentioned you agreed, an artificial cap is likely not a good solution.
So where to take this thread now?
|

Taedrin
Kushan Industrial
318
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 20:56:00 -
[38] - Quote
If people are too poor to afford $15 a month, then their time might be better spent on things other than EVE. |

Ehn Roh
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 21:10:00 -
[39] - Quote
Quote: vast majority of subscribers who pay for there account via acquiring in game plexes via self generated isk.
hahahahaha no.
There is not much than can be directly done about PLEX prices because price controls simply fail. They're not just "not a good solution", they aren't a solution at all. A price cap would cut into supply, so while they'd be "cheaper", they may also not be available at all. The supply/demand curve works for both the buyer and the seller. |

Specctor
Sicarius. Sicarius..
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 21:17:00 -
[40] - Quote
Well after I agreed with plex capping being a bad soloution I suggested a couple of more possibilities, but what would your answer be to plex inflation how would you controll plex inflation or protect the player base from plex manipulation? |

Bad Bobby
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
19
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 21:26:00 -
[41] - Quote
Specctor wrote:what would your answer be to plex inflation Let the market deal with it. |

Specctor
Sicarius. Sicarius..
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 23:10:00 -
[42] - Quote
Burry your head and hope the problem disappears..... |

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
196
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 23:28:00 -
[43] - Quote
Specctor wrote:Burry your head and hope the problem disappears.....
Why is it a problem? |

Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
133
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 00:48:00 -
[44] - Quote
Specctor wrote:Burry your head and hope the problem disappears.....
You have used this argument already.
It's not burying your head. CCP for better or worse, created EVE with a no holds barred open market system. I dont see any reasonable way for them to directly manipulate the market without causing bigger issues.
We've talked about price caps.
They could add PLEX to the market. But this does not benefit them as it is like giving away free gametime.
They could sell PLEX at a discount. But they have done this twice in the last 4-5 months and that hasn't done much.
They could silently buy up PLEX and trash them, or resell them at a lower price. But this is underhanded and probably illegal in some way.
The only valid thing would be to adjust the Isk sinks. They could also slowly adjust some isk faucets, but that would involve more than just incursions. The rich in EVE need more crap to spend their isk on. The Aurum store was supposed to help, but that was half implemented and a flop.
Essentially within the game model you need to increase supply or reduce demand. Increasing supply doesnt seem to help. There are simply too many eve billionaires who will gobble up and hoard them. I don't see how to reduce supply since everyone would love to PLEX their accounts. |

enterprisePSI
Unimatrix 0.1
67
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 06:31:00 -
[45] - Quote
I am too sexy to worry about plex prices. The tears of the many, outweight the tears of the few. Or the one.
-«enterprise-psi |

roigon
Per.ly The 20 Minuters
5
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 07:20:00 -
[46] - Quote
I like this game of what if.
What if the price of PLEX became 1GAZILION ISK and everyone decided to quit eve. DON'T YOU SEE, IT WOULD RUIN THE GAME! |

Specctor
Sicarius. Sicarius..
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 07:37:00 -
[47] - Quote
Is not really an argument is it more of a generalisation of what the general view is.
I don't really understand why people were so adverse to discussing this it seems alot of people disagree for the sake of it on here. |

Specctor
Sicarius. Sicarius..
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 07:44:00 -
[48] - Quote
Final idea what about making plex a Sort of hot potato give them and expiry date or give plexes a maximum number per account type figure say x plexes can be bought and stored per account max. |

roigon
Per.ly The 20 Minuters
5
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 07:51:00 -
[49] - Quote
Specctor wrote:Is not really an argument is it more of a generalisation of what the general view is.
I don't really understand why people were so adverse to discussing this it seems a lot of people disagree for the sake of it on here.
I can't speak for everyone, but you personally lost all the respect I could give you when you started painting unsubstantial, unrealistic doom scenarioGÇÖs like a religious zealot.
You started with an argument, people pointed out your argument was flawed. A few posts in you go into a cycle of regurgitating that people leaving the game is bad. Which people rightly pointed out is a silly counter-argument since their argument isn't about people leaving or staying with the game, but that if PLEX rose to a price where a substantial amount of players could not pay for it, price would eventually drop. You continue to spout that people leaving the game is bad. Discussion lost, thread lost. |

Specctor
Sicarius. Sicarius..
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 09:11:00 -
[50] - Quote
Zealot? Respect? Ha! Your right though thread lost I thought this was market discussion not speak and be jumped on |

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
2669
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 11:14:00 -
[51] - Quote
You said it yourself: there's a recession on.
Fewer players are willing to spend an extra $30 to save themselves grinding up for a new Tech3 or Machariel or whatever
More players are unemployed or have reduced RL incomes, and have nothing better to do with their time than spend a few hours saving themselves $15
PLEX supply falls, PLEX demand increases; the ISK price inevitably rises. QED.
People already in posession of PLEX stockpiles see this inexorable and inevitable price increase, and they hang on to their PLEX as a risk-free, zero-effort way to increase the ISK value of their assets.
Trying to enforce price controls on PLEX will simply lead to a black market and a further decrease in supply (ask people who live in ex-Communist countries about this) - and once you're stepping outside the rules to trade in PLEX, you might just as well go the whole hog and simply buy ISK from RMT sites.
The other alternative would be for CCP to subsidise PLEX sellers, either by lowering GTC prices, or by increasing the perceived value of a GTC by eg: giving 2 PLEX plus some straight up ISK/AUR/other consideration.
A third alternative would be to realise that there's no inherent right to play for free. CCP's income is equal to the number of subscriptions people are willing to play for plus the number of GTC people are willing to buy. The absolute number of players isn't directly relevent, nor is it directly linked to the number of accounts (although I agree that it's objectively good for the game to have more players, the likely consequence of having higher PLEX prices is that people will let that 3rd or 4th account drop rather than stop playing altogether) Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |

Bad Bobby
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
19
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 15:59:00 -
[52] - Quote
Specctor wrote:I thought this was market discussion not speak and be jumped on Several people are discussing the market in this thread.
You are not one of them. You are just running around screaming about zombie invasions and signs of the apocalypse.
I'm not sure what you expect us to do? |

Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
134
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 16:12:00 -
[53] - Quote
Specctor wrote:Final idea what about making plex a Sort of hot potato give them and expiry date or give plexes a maximum number per account type figure say x plexes can be bought and stored per account max.
Now this wouldn't be bad idea. I don't know if you could really retroactively add an expiration date. But in general this would certainly help the issue.
And it isn't too far fetched. When I sell my clients pre-paid blocks of consulting hours they have to use them within 12 months. |

Specctor
Sicarius. Sicarius..
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 16:47:00 -
[54] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Specctor wrote:Final idea what about making plex a Sort of hot potato give them and expiry date or give plexes a maximum number per account type figure say x plexes can be bought and stored per account max. Now this wouldn't be bad idea. I don't know if you could really retroactively add an expiration date. But in general this would certainly help the issue. And it isn't too far fetched. When I sell my clients pre-paid blocks of consulting hours they have to use them within 12 months.
You could Perhaps say this item will be invalid after one month to ensure plexes are no longer hoarded and throttled although perhaps a baseline compensatory figure could be granted just incase you have one go pop on you.. Like a set figure well below market value |

Ticarus Hellbrandt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 16:47:00 -
[55] - Quote
plex price will go down when the global economy goes up |

Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers Black Thorne Alliance
112
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 17:26:00 -
[56] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:There will always be massive variation in the resources different players have.
Coming from Bad Bobby I just had to put this up in a frame and keep it here for posterity - It made my day 
But in any case - yes the market will regulate PLEX availability the only thing I'd like to add is that PLEX has a few more uses than stated early on by Dearth notably:
1) Buying fanfest tickets 2) Paying for character transfers
I also tend to agree that characters who in six months have not learned to increase their money-for-plex income from 370 million to 490 million will meet a rather bothersome process called "natural selection". It's not cool when it happens to you or when it happens to someone you know but it *is* a part of EVE - one I'd not do without.
Be happy you have the option to play-to-pay if that's what you need and think smart to make it happen. |

Bad Bobby
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
20
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 17:53:00 -
[57] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Specctor wrote:Final idea what about making plex a Sort of hot potato give them and expiry date or give plexes a maximum number per account type figure say x plexes can be bought and stored per account max. Now this wouldn't be bad idea. I don't know if you could really retroactively add an expiration date. But in general this would certainly help the issue. And it isn't too far fetched. When I sell my clients pre-paid blocks of consulting hours they have to use them within 12 months. Doing this would make each PLEX a unique item. It would then be incompatible with the EVE market. Your only options for trading them would then be through contracts and trade windows. In my experience, items that cannot be traded on the EVE market are much easier to manipulate.
Aside from that pitfall, how is this actually going to solve your perceived problem?
At present the PLEX price is high (compared to six months ago at least) due to the scales of supply and demand tipping towards the demand side. You could argue many causes for this, but some compelling ones are:
1. Supply is low because of real life belt tightening.
2. Supply is low because CCP front-loaded the PLEX market with cheap PLEX offers.
3. Supply is low and demand is high because people are buying and holding PLEX in fear of, expectation of, or giddy salivating joy over the likelyhood of higher PLEX prices in the future.
4. Demand is high because more people can afford PLEX and are therefore subbing additional accounts with PLEX or are switching existing accounts over to PLEX.
5. Demand is high because people are using PLEX to buy fanfest tickets, pay for character transfers and get NEX store points.
Neither (1) or (2) are going to be helped by an expiration date, or any measure that results in a reduction in PLEX price, because a reduction in PLEX price will result in reduced supply and increased demand.
(4) and (5) are both counter to the story you are telling, which is one of short supply rather than high demand. In any case, you aren't going to fix either of them by adding an expiration date.
So all we have left is (3), which appears to be your core issue. You believe that market manipulation is the cause of this evil that will bring down our ivory towers. An expiration date may crash PLEX prices in the short term, but making PLEXes a contract-only item, with no market data and time limited stockpiles will make it much easier to manipulate. So you would be worse off than you are now.
Fortunately, the core of your argument is a total fantasy and we don't have to worry about any of this. |

Kagan Storm
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
54
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 21:00:00 -
[58] - Quote
NORMAL POST...... (no tinfoil)
Plex = only item used in game and in demand that cannot be manufactured in game (goggles pants and thongs dont count)
Only 2 things affect PLEX price Supplay and Demand.
Demand is currently High.
Supplay is low cause you have to spend RL cash.
SO PLEX is a perfect item to be market manipulated. Cause you cant just dump 500 000 of them on market. You can even crash titan prices if a large alliance decides to sell all of their titans. But plex is wirtualy impossible to crash.
Best thing you can do is not buy it. Save money and buy GTCs directly from other players. Price differance is about 50 mill....
That is the only thing that will crash the plex. Cause somebody had to setup the buy and sell orders... And is making money on teh fact the rest of you are lazy and cant think 2 days in advance.
Thats what i do. I dont touch the PLEX so the fat bastards canot make money on it. 
Forum post. Chat.
Use them.
Stop using market to get game time and price will fall. My ego is the the size of my carriers jump range. |

Ireland VonVicious
Gurista Saints Assassin Confederacy
18
|
Posted - 2012.01.28 08:57:00 -
[59] - Quote
The big point that is being missed in this thread is buying power.
The OP is worried about people being able to get 2 bil worth of stuff instead of 1 bil worth of stuff for the 2 plex they bought. ((Not the case))
He is also worried that players who once payed 1 bil for 2 plex now have to pay 2 bil for 2 plex and will leave the game.
Your viewing the numbers but not what is creating them. Some people are saying it's supply and demand. Low supply and high demand. This is only a very small factor.
When isk is being injected into the economy of eve a few things happen:
Make more isk per hour then before. This can be done directly by doing the activity that is the source of the injection. (( Incursions ))
Prices rise. Make more isk per hour then before. It can also be done indirectly by selling all your eve made goods at higher isk prices and/or playing the markets for the same percentages as before just more isk involved.
End result is that buying power doesn't change much. Your plex price doubled? If everything else goes up the same you get the same ship with the same fittings from the same location for the same ammount of U.S. dollars as you would have before.
Plex price buying power wise has not gone up as much as you fear. It may have out paced the market and gone up a bit. Don't use the isk to plex ratio to determine how much it has gone up. Use ingame buying power of that plex to determine it's price increase and decrease.
The largest factor that determines plex prices is the amount of game time people will spend in order to get the plex they desire. That amount of time can only produce so much product.
In short if a plex can get you a medium price of a cross faction ship: It doesn't matter if your plex is worth 1bil or 200bil if the ship prices still matches what the plex is worth. Isk is the lube not the engine of the eve economy! |

Ambo
I've Got Nothing
24
|
Posted - 2012.01.28 17:46:00 -
[60] - Quote
Specctor wrote:the estimated two thirds of players whom pay by plex . [citation required] |
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