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fuer0n
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
74
|
Posted - 2012.02.09 21:17:00 -
[91] - Quote
kill all sons of bitches. that's my offical instructions. |

Carniflex
StarHunt Broken Toys
12
|
Posted - 2012.02.10 10:29:00 -
[92] - Quote
I would like to point out, that EVE is already "free to play" game as a result of PLEX.
But as EVE is "hard" game there is a quirk in its free-to-play model. You can "starve" in EVE if you are not playing hard enough. You put in some effort and grind and "play for free" or you swipe your credit card and get that "advantage" over free to play players in the form of isk injection you can spend on having fun - whatever is your definition of fun - without having to grind for that isk. At least not in game.
There is certain volatily assosiated with PLEX ofc - as as you pointed out - if PLEX price rises enough some accounts will "starve" as a result. CCP is quite aware of that and is implementing tools making it possible for them to intervene in PLEX market if they see the need - however they are not planning to do that in foreseeable future - according to CSM minutes.
I doubt that they would intervene as a reaction to "normal" PLEX price changes - even if the PLEX will hit the 1 bil mark or whatever other arbitary "red line". In my opinion they are implementing these tools as a potential safeguard against malicious market manipulation attempts. For Example - should goons (or whoever else) decide that it's good time to throw couple of trillion isk at PLEX market in an attempt to "hurt" EVE. The subscription base high reliance on PLEX market can introduce some shockwaves in the economy if PLEX price changes too rapidly.
While CCP intervention can "smooth out" the shockwaves introduced by the theoretical manipulation attempt its a bit hopeless to hold back the flood if the change is caused by normal market forces. It can "buy them some time" to change underlying game mechanics tho if there is a problem. |

Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
676
|
Posted - 2012.02.10 16:08:00 -
[93] - Quote
CCP rolled out 2 new PLEX sales this week, 2 for USD30 and 10 for USD150. |

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
67
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 00:24:00 -
[94] - Quote
Carniflex wrote:I would like to point out, that EVE is already "free to play" game as a result of PLEX.
But as EVE is "hard" game there is a quirk in its free-to-play model. You can "starve" in EVE if you are not playing hard enough. You put in some effort and grind and "play for free" or you swipe your credit card and get that "advantage" over free to play players in the form of isk injection you can spend on having fun - whatever is your definition of fun - without having to grind for that isk. At least not in game.
There is certain volatily assosiated with PLEX ofc - as as you pointed out - if PLEX price rises enough some accounts will "starve" as a result. CCP is quite aware of that and is implementing tools making it possible for them to intervene in PLEX market if they see the need - however they are not planning to do that in foreseeable future - according to CSM minutes.
I doubt that they would intervene as a reaction to "normal" PLEX price changes - even if the PLEX will hit the 1 bil mark or whatever other arbitary "red line". In my opinion they are implementing these tools as a potential safeguard against malicious market manipulation attempts. For Example - should goons (or whoever else) decide that it's good time to throw couple of trillion isk at PLEX market in an attempt to "hurt" EVE. The subscription base high reliance on PLEX market can introduce some shockwaves in the economy if PLEX price changes too rapidly.
While CCP intervention can "smooth out" the shockwaves introduced by the theoretical manipulation attempt its a bit hopeless to hold back the flood if the change is caused by normal market forces. It can "buy them some time" to change underlying game mechanics tho if there is a problem.
Really good point bout the particularity in their Free to play option...
that is really an issue in terms of the idea that more and more people might be accustomed to legging into a game in a generally free to play world,
AND ... paying players accustomed to a free to play world might only pay when their interest is high but expect to be able to tool around in some limmited fashion in a paid world.
As for where they would intervene. if it were only for emergency reasons I might agree with you.
But, if they gamed that by putting 5% more plexes on the market, they'd drive down the market price to a level that there were actually be increased purchases of plex for $ (because people would need more plex to get that carrier) and more players(as in people, not accounts) retained and over the long run attracted... they should do it crisis or not.
I could very easily see it being possible that if they placed 5 % more plex on the market, the price could fall from 500 to 400 million.
I don't know that, but commodity markets can have large swings. It would take an extra half a plex to get a billion isk, and while fewer people might buy isk for that carrier, the number of people buying 1 billion isk migh drop 5% but the number of plex bought might increase say 15% (the percentages aren't quite so round but the point isn' about the preciseness of estimates). They'd have 20% more accounts active under that scenario (accounts not players...players is a different guess) with 3/4s of the difference coming from $ purchases and one quarter coming from extra game time they dispense free.
It is Plausable, and worth experimenting with.
PRICING strategies at any retailer are subjective choices looking for a pricepoint that will balance volume and margin to maximize profits short term and position the brand to a demographic in the long run.
CCP is in it to make money, not to have the absolute purest economy beyond the point that game play quality suffers. Game time has far more meta overtones to it than drakes...supply is already influenced by meta things like buddy account and power of two decsisions etc. |

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
67
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 00:44:00 -
[95] - Quote
Another thought
Plex market is linked to other types of game time sales.
It is almost certain that some number of players will only play if they can have mutiple account but will subscribe with one account and use isk for the other account.
However many fit that mold 1 out of 100 playes, 1 out of 50 , 1out of 20, 1 in 5 the number is not 0.
Of that group, if a threshold is passed where in thier perception (you can't argue what they SHOULD feel but what they Do feel) the price of plex in isk makes them decide not to play, that loss of a plex funded accounts results in a direct loss in paid accounts too.
We don't know how wide spread that is, but even as low as a 1 or 2 % increase or decrease in revenues is a significant thing in the RL business world even if it isn't very game play effecting.
The discussion goes round and round because it is subjective... but subjective does not mean unknowable and all busineses who provide entertainment and luxurie items make subjective projections of customer behaviour ... really depend on that to seperate themselves and those decisions take into account the quuality of their product and the pricing of their product.
If the ISK per PLex got too cheap (in isk), they would start losing sales to people who would have used money instead. Too cheap would encourage the RMT to grow. Too cheap would give too poor a value to people who don't like grinding and might not play the game at all without the $ to isk option. The market however doesn't draw the price at the optimum price for subscriber count. The in game market sets the price based on in game motivations to trade time on game efforts for additional game time(for a select minorty of the participants that is fungible with $)
|

Caliph Muhammed
Perkone Caldari State
74
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 02:41:00 -
[96] - Quote
There's a whole lot of bad economics in this thread. Its simple. Higher plex prices mean the guys who pay cash to create plex are more likely to do so.
Lower plex prices means the guys who pay cash to create plex are less likely to do so.
The larger the wallet of those who pay cash to create plex the greater the effect of higher or lower plex prices. If someone has 1billion ISK in wallet they may accept 350 million ISK as reasonable when they decide to create a plex through cash. Someone with 10 billion ISK may not feel inclined to create a plex through cash unless the price is 500 million isk.
The guy who uses ISK to buy a plex mean jack squat in the equation outside of being a part of the demand. The subscription has been paid already when the plex is created. Whether or not a plexed account is let to expire matters not. If it were a paid subscription thinking of going to plex, that's allowed to expire because they can't/won't afford a plex, the net effect would be the same. By hook or crook this class of player was no longer going to pay cash for the account.
The simple truth is the price of plex is going to continually rise over time as long as the population increases (demand) and the supply of ISK (faucets) rise along with it.
To summarize. There is no inherent right to cheap plex, free plex or anything else. You have the option to pay your subscription through cash or buy a plex at market value. Should you opt for neither your account will be closed. There is absolutely nothing CCP can do to control the market value of plex short of giving it away for free or selling it through game and removing the player market. That's not going to happen. |

Arkady Vachon
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 07:59:00 -
[97] - Quote
Only PLEX i have bought for resale thus far is the first one - gives me enough to get some minor ventures going, buy some bangbang, and keep a reserve for later. Would rather make any ISK after that myself. |

Xintri Ra'Virr
Six Kin Mining and Development Group
9
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 12:43:00 -
[98] - Quote
"The subscription has been paid already when the plex is created".
So every time I or you pay for subscription with real money we basicly pay not only for our sub, but for sub of that guy who buy a PLEX from market and use it.
That means CCP is loosing 50% of potential profit from subscriptions as a company. Thats very generous!
Also PLEX prices will be high as long as it's possible make ISKs for buying one in just a few hours running Incrusions in hisec. Another reason is fanfest. |

Dane Eham
UNFRL Fleet Operations CONSORTIUM UNIVERSALIS
4
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 13:04:00 -
[99] - Quote
No.
He means CCP is paid for that month of game time when the PLEX is created. They're actually making more money. PLEX is more expensive than the subscription cost and inevitably some fool is going to load a bunch of PLEX into a ship and get them destroyed. That's free money for CCP right there. They've been paid for game time that will never be redeemed. |

Riley Moore
Sentinum Research
325
|
Posted - 2012.02.14 18:11:00 -
[100] - Quote
Should see plex go back up to previous levels over the next few days. Will be cool. Large volumes of highly researched Ammo, drones, charges and ship bpo's. Biggest BPO store in EVE! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=445524#post445524 |

corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
67
|
Posted - 2012.02.23 23:16:00 -
[101] - Quote
Riley Moore wrote:Should see plex go back up to previous levels over the next few days. Will be cool.
I'd say higher than that.
http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4906&tid=1
Power of two is back. Clearly ccp doesn't really care about plex prices anymore. |

Johnny Frecko
Fruidian Logic Visionaries of Iron
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.23 23:58:00 -
[102] - Quote
after reading on and off, most of the commentors and the OP have very bad understanding of market mechanics. What you are seeing is "PLEX", just one item seperated from the market.
Now, let's play real economics:
in real life, currency is degraded by what you may know as inflation. That means prices rise when demand exceeds supply, this happens to enable the market to heal itself. A healed market means that the amount of items being put up for sale and the amount of items people want to buy are the same.
Ignoring the reason as to why prices have risen(Many factors at that), Here's a short price list
Prices are 1/10/11 and 1/02/12 essence market, averages.
Tritanium : 3.3 to 3.81 15% increase Catalysts : 625K to 947K 51% increase PLEX : 383.7M to 482.2M 25% increase Veldspar : 9.38 to 11.02 17% increase Hulk : 197.5M to 195.7M 1% decrease Thorax : 5.9M to 6.83M 15% increase Megathron : 77.7M to 93.8M 20% increase
I can go on, but there's no reason to. For the average miner, plex is barely 10% less expensive. For the new miner isk is easier to come by(due to ore/mineral prices), hulks are the same price; plexes are easier to get. Basically, if you're a manufacturer, prices have increased with the production costs, same net profit. plex is 10% more expensive.
Mission runners : The eve algorithem changes mission prices as far as i know to comply with the demand for missions. a mission that isn't being done alot, or that people are constantly failing, will get more isk in it(Varify me on that).
We can safely assume that more people are mining now than they were 4 months ago due to the price rise, meaning that the actual mineral price rise should've been steeper, but more miners are trying to fill in the market gaps.
Where does that leave us? plex prices have hiccuped 5-15% up depending on your profession. The nominal price has gone up, but the real price is safe. For example, let's pin the plex price to tritanium.
1 plex cost 116M tritanium in 1/10/11 1 plex cost 126M tritanium in 1/02/12
a rise of 8%. all this fuss for 8%, really?
Final note on missions, the more prices rise, the less missions become a viable income option. less people run missions, mission rewards rise to meet demand, and the circle is complete. if mission rewards don't increase, mission running as a profession will become extinct(causing a price rise in all the higher meta prices, which will make mission running profitable again).
It's not magic, It's economics.
|

corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
67
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 01:08:00 -
[103] - Quote
Johnny Frecko wrote:after reading on and off, most of the commentors and the OP have very bad understanding of market mechanics. What you are seeing is "PLEX", just one item seperated from the market.
Now, let's play real economics:
in real life, currency is degraded by what you may know as inflation. That means prices rise when demand exceeds supply, this happens to enable the market to heal itself. A healed market means that the amount of items being put up for sale and the amount of items people want to buy are the same.
Ignoring the reason as to why prices have risen(Many factors at that), Here's a short price list
Prices are 1/10/11 and 1/02/12 essence market, averages.
Tritanium : 3.3 to 3.81 15% increase Catalysts : 625K to 947K 51% increase PLEX : 383.7M to 482.2M 25% increase Veldspar : 9.38 to 11.02 17% increase Hulk : 197.5M to 195.7M 1% decrease Thorax : 5.9M to 6.83M 15% increase Megathron : 77.7M to 93.8M 20% increase
I can go on, but there's no reason to. For the average miner, plex is barely 10% less expensive. For the new miner isk is easier to come by(due to ore/mineral prices), hulks are the same price; plexes are easier to get. Basically, if you're a manufacturer, prices have increased with the production costs, same net profit. plex is 10% more expensive.
Mission runners : The eve algorithem changes mission prices as far as i know to comply with the demand for missions. a mission that isn't being done alot, or that people are constantly failing, will get more isk in it(Varify me on that).
We can safely assume that more people are mining now than they were 4 months ago due to the price rise, meaning that the actual mineral price rise should've been steeper, but more miners are trying to fill in the market gaps.
Where does that leave us? plex prices have hiccuped 5-15% up depending on your profession. The nominal price has gone up, but the real price is safe. For example, let's pin the plex price to tritanium.
1 plex cost 116M tritanium in 1/10/11 1 plex cost 126M tritanium in 1/02/12
a rise of 8%. all this fuss for 8%, really?
Final note on missions, the more prices rise, the less missions become a viable income option. less people run missions, mission rewards rise to meet demand, and the circle is complete. if mission rewards don't increase, mission running as a profession will become extinct(causing a price rise in all the higher meta prices, which will make mission running profitable again).
It's not magic, It's economics.
You're a moron. |

Johnny Frecko
Fruidian Logic Visionaries of Iron
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 01:16:00 -
[104] - Quote
you can call it market manupulation my dear goon, but there is something basic; prices are rising everywhere, Not just plexes. |

corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
67
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 02:03:00 -
[105] - Quote
I'm not calling it market manipulation. I'm just calling you a moron. |

OfBalance
Deep Core Mining Inc.
44
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 02:35:00 -
[106] - Quote
Tell us more about the ~real economics~ at work Professor Frecko.
heh |

Dersk
90040045
22
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 02:48:00 -
[107] - Quote
Johnny Frecko wrote:you can call it market manupulation my dear goon, but there is something basic; prices are rising everywhere, Not just plexes.
24 February 2011 vs. 23 February 2012 Jita average sales via in-game market window
Megacyte: 2965 to 2582, a 13% decrease Zydrine: 1022 to 743, a 27% decrease Nocxium, 550 to 522, a 5% decrease Scorpion Navy Issue, 368 million to 278 million, a 25% decrease
For every hour that I'm at my computer (edit: and awake) and you do not apologize for your ignorance I will post one more item. |

Johnny Frecko
Fruidian Logic Visionaries of Iron
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 02:56:00 -
[108] - Quote
as i'm too lazy and far from in order to check the prices myself; do me a favor and post your next items on the same dates i have, alot have happened during the year. i'm intrested in only the mineral prices actually. while you're at it, drop in all the T1 battleships aswell.
|

Dersk
90040045
22
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 03:05:00 -
[109] - Quote
Yes
Quote:do me a favor and post your next items on the same dates i have
I will as soon as you show me how to access market data in-game, not through some 3rd party website, that shows market data older than one year. Also, this comment is like parrying a thrust with your sword by forcing the opponent to stab you in the face. Unless your argument is inflation only from 1/10 to 1/2, you become a coward and lazy.
Quote:i'm intrested in only the mineral prices actually.
What in the Jaysus ach chryst do you think megacyte, zydrine, and nocxium are?
Quote:while you're at it, drop in all the T1 battleships aswell.
You cherry pick your market date, I cherry pick mine. |

Dersk
90040045
22
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 03:37:00 -
[110] - Quote
Experimental 10mn microwarpdrive, formerly y-t8 mwd.
55000 to 29017, 47% drop. |

Hired Assasin
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
35
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 04:06:00 -
[111] - Quote
incursions make too much isk, people in less then a day can pay for a month or two with ingame money. this is causing more people to switch from paying out of game to paying ingame because of easy source of income which is incursions, hope they are gone soon or nerfed so they arnt the end all isk fountain Teamspeak 3 with API and Web Interface Hosting with Member Rewards!!-á: http://alturl.com/asde8 Catch me on EVE Gate, im allmost always on it!
|

OfBalance
Deep Core Mining Inc.
44
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 04:15:00 -
[112] - Quote
And loose the coveted "ex-WoW-raider," market niche?
Heaven forbid! |

Dersk
90040045
22
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 04:35:00 -
[113] - Quote
Mechanical parts, 8500 to 6420, a 25% decrease |

Ireland VonVicious
Gurista Saints Assassin Confederacy
38
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 04:49:00 -
[114] - Quote
These random lower items don't prove the point.
You can do the same with a stack of other items to show huge increase. |

corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
67
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 05:18:00 -
[115] - Quote
Ireland VonVicious wrote:These random lower items don't prove the point.
You can do the same with a stack of other items to show huge increase.
Yes that's the point he's making. |

Dersk
90040045
22
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 05:32:00 -
[116] - Quote
Ireland VonVicious wrote:These random lower items don't prove the point.
You can do the same with a stack of other items to show huge increase.
Your second sentence is exactly the point. I easily spotted dozens of other items that have dropped in value... good to keep me entertained for a few days. The statement I was attacking, as our dear Frecko put it, is that "prices are rising everywhere." It is an ignorant blanket statement that so overly simplifies the market as to lead someone to inaccurate conclusions, such as the cause of that increase, and then to inaccurate solutions on how to fix the problem.
The thousands of tier 3 battlecruisers, the increase in demand for drakes, the war in the east and north, changes to anomolies, blahblahblahblahblah all that that is irrelevant. It's inflation. Just look at plex prices! Everything is going up!
Except for those hundreds of other items that have fallen in price. We don't talk about those. They're just outliers.
If the reason for rising costs is inflation, why are the prices and sales volumes of drakes climbing while malkuth missile launchers have dropped to 1/4 of their value a year ago? That's not a rhetorical question.
If the reason for rising costs in inflation, why are cynosural field generators, a t1 mineral-only product without a functional substitute, cheaper now than a year ago?
If the reason for rising costs is inflation, why are the three most expensive minerals all cheaper? (oops, maybe not all minerals are more expensive? what what?)
When tritanium and stuff built with tritanium both go up at the same time, that's not proof of inflation. Nor is 33%ish drop in the value of salvaged armor plates proof of deflation. JFC
If people have a hard on for nerfing incursions, blaming market trends that just happened to kick into gear when tier 3 battlecruisers were delivered on said incursions isn't the appropriate way to get them nerfed. |

Dersk
90040045
22
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 05:36:00 -
[117] - Quote
Oh yeah, my hourly post before I go to bed:
Malkuth Heavy Missile Launcher 742k to 197k, 73% drop.
IT'S ALL CAUSED BY INFLATION! WWWHAAWEHEAAA |

Ireland VonVicious
Gurista Saints Assassin Confederacy
38
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 05:57:00 -
[118] - Quote
The ore prices are the best area to show inflation/deflation although not perfect.
The main thing to keep in mind is they need to be weighed based on cost/volume before coming up with a hard number.
Over all trend in past year seems to be: Ore up, anything bought with empire lp down, things bought with pirate lp up, plex prices up. Most of this seems to be due to incursions. |

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
309
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 06:20:00 -
[119] - Quote
Dersk wrote:
If the reason for rising costs is inflation, why are the three most expensive minerals all cheaper? (oops, maybe not all minerals are more expensive? what what?)
This sentence alone disqualifies any of your claims. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |

Specctor
Sicarius. Sicarius..
3
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 10:04:00 -
[120] - Quote
Would you say that with the power of two rearing it's ugly head at around a time when plex prices could start to come back down, means that perhaps ccp are trying to keep plex prices up as an isk sink untill theyfix incursions??
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