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Ivy Axisur	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:03:00 - [1] For the most part the EVE market behaves like the real market with one notable exception. Why, I ask you, would any manufacturer drastically de-value an item he/she produces on the open market? Most builders and manufacturers know how to play the game. I lower my price a tiny bit, you do the same, we each take turns being the lowest price on the market, we both make good money. Then the stupid guy comes along and undercuts us both by a couple million. If theyÆve got just a few items to sell, no problem, I keep my price and let his inventory run out. But when they flood the market we need to follow. IÆve got inventory, off-market backup inventory, and more in manufacturing. So IÆm just going to beat your price again. But really, there was enough money for us both. If only you werenÆt so dumb we could both make a lot.
Louis DelaBlanche Cosmic Odyssey YouWhat	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:04:00 - [2] best way to sell fast is sell cheap. Specially if ur hoping to sell in bulk
Xonkra Gallente	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:05:00 - [3] i admire people like you yet you also make me sick and angry on the inside Originally by: Illyria Ambri No matter how you want to say it.. it always sounds like frog clearing throat "Ve zurrendur, dunt schuut"
Manos Malos	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:06:00 - [4] If he does it often enough and on a large enough scale, he'll drive some of you away to different markets/regions and then he can charge whatever he wants. Remember, the market has its form of pvp as well. He isn't an "idiot".
HandSoLow	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:12:00 - [5] People do it for fun, some people do it to sell isk... Sh*t happens man
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:13:00 - [6] yeah i also don't get why people undercut by extreme margins but usually i just buy up the cheap stuff and resell it:)
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:15:00 - [7] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 27/10/2007 15:14:51 Yeah, the main thing that angers me is people who do not undercut by the customary .01 isk. I mean what the heck, do they WANT the item to get devalued? I just attribute it to pure laziness on their part, I mean why undercut a whole isk or 100 isk when you can do the desirable thing and undercut by .01? Also yeah, the people I call market white knighters, selling at the normal price when you can get double due to a lack of supply on the market, god I hate those people.
Plave Okice Gallente 0utlaws	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:16:00 - [8] Because there are many people (like me) who sell large volumes of goods that we haven't manufactured or purchased, we stole them. Many a time I've taken healthy stacks of T2 items from haulers and market listed them, I price them to sell and sell fast, I have pretty much no trade skills so I can't have hundreds of orders open, I want the isk. I've had people buying one item of mine then messaging me complaining why I undercut them so much when they'd undercut the previous guy by 0.01 isk. It's not an issue whether I get 100 mill or 92 mill for the stack, I want to get it sold and get more stuff listed and move on. Not all of us have to worry about what it cost us, in fact it amuses me, even when I'm selling stuff I'm PvPing and making the bears whine. Si vis pacem, para bellum
Dr Kusanagi	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:20:00 - [9] Originally by: Manos Malos If he does it often enough and on a large enough scale, he'll drive some of you away to different markets/regions and then he can charge whatever he wants. Remember, the market has its form of pvp as well. He isn't an "idiot". Your probably right about intention, but he's still dumb, that doesn't happen at a market hub. All the guy has to do it look at the history tab. (small markets yes)
Sky Marshal Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:20:00 - [10] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 27/10/2007 15:23:44 Yes I know the same kind of situation. When the market permits to buy modules at low-cost, but also permits to make money, we have the best possible situation for everyone, but there is always someone to crash all, and this is really annoying. I often see ammo sold for a profit of 2/3 credits (same with maxed BPO/BPC/Skills). See a seller who stuck 300M ISK of stuck to win only 3M is unbelievable... This is the same problem for modules/implants. I tried sometimes to buy their stuff only to keep the price correct, but this don't work because by this action, I call more discounters to go at my location, and I don't have enough money to do it all the time. The only way to fight this, is waiting... The Market need 2 or 3 months to return to an healthy situation.
Dr Kusanagi	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:24:00 - [11] Edited by: Dr Kusanagi on 27/10/2007 15:24:08 Volume or not all it does is devaluing the market making it harder for you to go off and PVP while making money in high-sec. ItÆs lazy, lazy and dumb.
Dr Kusanagi	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:26:00 - [12] Yep, Lazy... I'll still beat your price within a few hours. It's just that now we both make less
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:27:00 - [13] Originally by: Gamer4liff Also yeah, the people I call market white knighters, selling at the normal price when you can get double due to a lack of supply on the market, god I hate those people. just buy it up and resell..
Ivy Axisur	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:28:00 - [14] Originally by: Sky Marshal Edited by: Sky Marshal on 27/10/2007 15:23:44 The only way to fight this, is waiting... The Market need 2 or 3 months to return to an healthy situation. You've got a good point there.
Fester Addams Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:28:00 - [15] You say he is stupid but yet here you are complaining on the forum about what he is doing, obviously he is rattling you. Like you said you have stocks, isk invested into the product to make back, if he can make the market uninteresting for you then you will leave for some other place and then he can bring upp his prices and make the good isk. What it all falls back on is profit. You can ither maximize your profit by selling few items for a high profit margin or by selling lots and lots of items at a lower profit margin. If you have competitors in station or even in system then you have to constantly check your figures in order to make sales, this is really anoying. If you can lower your profit for a while and drive off the competition then you will be alot better off and thus people will even accept a short time loss to be alone in a market. Thats not stupid, thats long time stategic planning. What is really stupid is to drop 0.01 isk below another player, this will cause one of two things to happen, #1 he will become annoyed and start underbidding you by 0.01 and checking very often or #2 he will underbid you with a big ammount in the hope that you are an isk weak trader that will move to greener pastures. Back in the day I used to trade in T1 BPO's, used to buy em and resell for 800%, it was a small but good buisness that usually netted me 5-10 mil a day per print for almost no work. Naturally such buisness will attract other participants, my standing practice was that if someone underbid me I would drop my price by ALOT, I bought most of them for 100k, sold them for 800k and if I got underbid I would drop my price by a full 100k and I would keep doing this untill I sold for the price I bought them for if need be. Each and every time my competitors gave upp as they like you felt I was stupid to lower my prices that much, once they were gone I jacked my prices back upp to 800k and it was back to normal. Thanx to my drastic drop in price such "duels" seldom lasted more than a week after wich I would have several weeks to myself before someone decided to challenge me again. Mmmm, back in the day when a few mil was a big wad of isk, those days lasted for such a short time... Anyhow, agressively clearing out competition is not stupid, it is very reasonable. If you wish to avoid such issues you shold match your oponents price in a different station and if CCP fixes the market so that firstly the sellers name is displayed and secondly we can buy from whoever we want and not only the person with the lowest offer instation then you can match his bid even in the same station and let the buyer decide who to buy from.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:28:00 - [16] Originally by: Plave Okice Because there are many people (like me) who sell large volumes of goods that we haven't manufactured or purchased, we stole them. Many a time I've taken healthy stacks of T2 items from haulers and market listed them, I price them to sell and sell fast, I have pretty much no trade skills so I can't have hundreds of orders open, I want the isk. I've had people buying one item of mine then messaging me complaining why I undercut them so much when they'd undercut the previous guy by 0.01 isk. It's not an issue whether I get 100 mill or 92 mill for the stack, I want to get it sold and get more stuff listed and move on. Not all of us have to worry about what it cost us, in fact it amuses me, even when I'm selling stuff I'm PvPing and making the bears whine. i rather get the 100mil:)
Ormen Tuttle	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:29:00 - [17] Quote: Why, I ask you, would any manufacturer drastically de-value an item he/she produces on the open market? Driving prices down is like lowering taxes--its good for the economy overall. Lower prices will mean more volume and in the long run more profits for more people. High prices favor the rich and powerful and tend to keep a firm line drawn between the have and have-nots. Lower prices allow more people to profit and grow economically. Inflation is a bad thing for any economy.
SentryRaven KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:30:00 - [18] Wait Wait Wait.... Do I see this right here? People now *****ing about other people undercutting their prices on market by a greater margin? You guys just made my day... oh yes.... you did... :) With best regards, SentryRaven KIA Noobship Pilot
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:32:00 - [19] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 27/10/2007 15:33:28 I usually undercut by 1M to 5M if something is selling more than 80M and 100k to 1M for less than 10M item. It is a RL strategy of mine. I call it bleeding the competitor then control the whole market once they have been driven out of business. If I have to, I would throw in freebies. The last thing I want to do in a game is to give freebies or do the irritating 0.01 ISK. Profit is only made when there are no more competitors. :) --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Ivy Axisur	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:36:00 - [20] Listen, I respect anyone who can flat-out beat me my having more ISK (trade power) or manufacturing capability. But 99% of the time they just drive market prices down. Recently I saw a major price spike in Mechanical Engineering datacores in all markets. Whoever pulled that one off was brilliant.
Wulinshu Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:39:00 - [21] Edited by: Wulinshu on 27/10/2007 15:41:18 Indeed I generally undercut by enough of a margin that people wont mind collecting at a different station, If people in jita choose to compete with my prices 11 jump away by .1 isk that's their problem. When I'm undercutting in the 25-100 mill range It's generally done for the tears and not the isk. Beware buying up peoples stock to sell at the normal price, they might very well come along and restock the market at the same price forcing you to take a loss, Oh how we laughed. Edit: datacores spiked because of the new ships, I suspect it's more a collection of people all thinking the same thing rather than any one entity. Originally by: "ISD Rauth Kivaro" This thread is spawned in the soil of failure and has no place to go but down.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:40:00 - [22] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 27/10/2007 15:45:17 Edited by: Gamer4liff on 27/10/2007 15:43:06 Originally by: d026 Originally by: Gamer4liff Also yeah, the people I call market white knighters, selling at the normal price when you can get double due to a lack of supply on the market, god I hate those people. just buy it up and resell.. Well mostly they just undercut by a million or so so it's not really worth it, but it still really burns my biscuits. EVE is not a real economy, people will usually buy the same amount at one price as another unless the price it wtftarded. Originally by: Ormen Tuttle Quote: Why, I ask you, would any manufacturer drastically de-value an item he/she produces on the open market? Driving prices down is like lowering taxes--its good for the economy overall. Lower prices will mean more volume and in the long run more profits for more people. High prices favor the rich and powerful and tend to keep a firm line drawn between the have and have-nots. Lower prices allow more people to profit and grow economically. Inflation is a bad thing for any economy. Screw the plebs, if they want lower prices they should sell at the normal prices like good citizens and slowly lower the price, or raise if people drop out of the market or the price goes up. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 27/10/2007 15:33:28 I usually undercut by 1M to 5M if something is selling more than 80M and 100k to 1M for less than 10M item. Pathetic Quote: It is a RL strategy of mine. I call it bleeding the competitor then control the whole market once they have been driven out of business. If I have to, I would throw in freebies. Yeah good luck with that, have fun being locked into a bad price, as soon as the price goes back up people re-enter the market. Quote: The last thing I want to do in a game is to give freebies or do the irritating 0.01 ISK. Profit is only made when there are no more competitors. :) That's a laugh, there is plenty of profit to be made in the standard methods.
Jack Jombardo Amarr	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:44:00 - [23] Edited by: Jack Jombardo on 27/10/2007 15:45:17 I'm just a small seller. In fackt I'm just owning some T1 BPOs and my cash isn't realy big at any given time. So I chose one BPO (let's say Amarr T1 Frig: Executioner) and calculate how much it cost me to produce. After I did it I start travling around the regions and compare the market price of Executioners to see if there is a changs to make profit. It was crazy what I found :). - Markets like Tash-Murkon or other (close by) Rookie start regions are close to the production price of about 25 to 35k ISK - Markets that are 20 jumps away are FAR above this build-price. best region I found one Executioner could be sold for 300k ISK! So I took my 10 Executioner (hadn't more ISK for bigger production lines) and offert them for 100k/each at this given region. After 30 seconds I got a ig-mail what the hell I would thinking to sell this Execs so cheap (remember: 3 times over production cost!!!). Conclusion: as long as I can make profit I sell my stuff cheaper then you ;). In fackt I stoped producing Executioners by myselve but bought them at TM and hault them to other regions - with GREAT profit
Fester Addams Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:47:00 - [24] Originally by: Ivy Axisur Edited by: Ivy Axisur on 27/10/2007 15:38:15 Listen, I respect anyone who can flat-out beat me by having more ISK (trade power) or manufacturing capability. But 99% of the time they just drive market prices down. Recently I saw a major price spike in Mechanical Engineering datacores in all markets. Whoever pulled that one off was brilliant. Ehh, did the prices drop?
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:47:00 - [25] Edited by: d026 on 27/10/2007 15:49:45 what i often see is extrem nonsens undercutting with faction ammo: i sell faction ammo for 4,5k/piece. i can sell a volume of 40-150k a day. i see it regulary that people undercut me by 500- 1000isk/piece or even more! even tough there istnt any other competitor and they could just dominate the marked for teh next few days by undercuttign me by 0.1 isk. Imho this is either pure charity, stupidness resulting of not checking the market before placing the order or sell for a pre calculated isk/lp ratio they see acceptable (which is pure charity again). And imho this cant be a planed attempt to drive off competitors.. And if it is it fails everytime:)
Ivy Axisur	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:51:00 - [26] Ok, Jack this is kind of my point. I apologize for inferring ôstupidityö wrong choice of words and I canÆt edit it now, but listen. I started with small frigs too, and started ûoff prime market regions. If you sold your Executioner for 299K ISK, you would make a lot more no? So why not do it? You make more, your competitor makes more, itÆs good for you both.
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:53:00 - [27] That 'guy' is prolly a ratter or runner who doesnt wwant to play your indy games. ----------------- Friends Forever Kill. BoB. Dead.
Ivy Axisur	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:54:00 - [28] Originally by: Fester Addams Originally by: Ivy Axisur Edited by: Ivy Axisur on 27/10/2007 15:38:15 Listen, I respect anyone who can flat-out beat me by having more ISK (trade power) or manufacturing capability. But 99% of the time they just drive market prices down. Recently I saw a major price spike in Mechanical Engineering datacores in all markets. Whoever pulled that one off was brilliant. Ehh, did the prices drop? Within 1 month they when from 1.4mill to 2.6 mil then down to 1.7 mill. I think it was the work of an individual.
Wulinshu Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:54:00 - [29] Would executioners sell as fast for 300k Considering people looking for them either know how much they should be or can't afford one, the market for people who don't care about the isk and really need an executioner has to be quite small Originally by: "ISD Rauth Kivaro" This thread is spawned in the soil of failure and has no place to go but down.
Sarah McTeef	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:59:00 - [30] Originally by: Everyone Whining in this thread about market pvp Wahhh. So where do you all trade, I think I'll come by and crash your markets.
Krystal Vernet Minmatar Midnight Captains	Posted - 2007.10.27 16:07:00 - [31] You guys seem to be under the misunderstanding that the guy who sells low really cares about you and your profit. Nothing annoys me more than the .01 ISK difference between prices, because then there's no real difference between the prices. The item may as well be sold by a single person. That's not a competitive market. It's just a group of people who want to maximize their profit without much thought to the pricing process, and are too lazy to properly compete.
Meiers	Posted - 2007.10.27 16:08:00 - [32] some people get their items through buy orders. This means over a month they could probably get 20 of a specific item at a very low price. Then he decides to sell them, and he can put whatever price as long as its not lower than what he purchased them at.
Ivy Axisur	Posted - 2007.10.27 16:10:00 - [33] Edited by: Ivy Axisur on 27/10/2007 16:11:06 Well Jack this strategy might work for now. If you posted 10 items, undercutting me, IÆd just let you sell them off and hold my price steady. But if you had large quantities or tried this at a market hub you would just be quickly outbid. The strategy would actually hurt you because others on the market would have more buying power and probably better researched BPOs.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.10.27 16:12:00 - [34] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 27/10/2007 16:12:38 Originally by: Krystal Vernet You guys seem to be under the misunderstanding that the guy who sells low really cares about you and your profit. Nothing annoys me more than the .01 ISK difference between prices, because then there's no real difference between the prices. The item may as well be sold by a single person. That's not a competitive market. It's just a group of people who want to maximize their profit without much thought to the pricing process, and are too lazy to properly compete. It is competitive, it is the most competitive thing you can do to undercut and maintain a .01 isk edge. It requires a good deal of maintenance to make sure you maintain your lead, and can suck up a lot of time if you sell multiple items in multiple regions. It's much more challenging than being a tard and taking the lazy way out by undercutting by 10% or more of the item's value.
Sarah McTeef	Posted - 2007.10.27 16:14:00 - [35] Edited by: Sarah McTeef on 27/10/2007 16:15:16 Originally by: Gamer4liff It is competitive, it is the most competitive thing you can do to undercut and maintain a .01 isk edge. It requires a good deal of maintenance to make sure you maintain your lead, and can suck up a lot of time if you sell multiple items in multiple regions. It's much more challenging than being a tard and taking the lazy way out by undercutting by 10% or more of the item's value. What if my intent is to destroy the value of the item on the market.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.27 16:18:00 - [36] Well if you want me to put it bluntly in the context of carebears vs non-carebears. 0.01 ISK undercut is for carebears and millions of ISKs undercut is for non-carebears. :) --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Ticarus Hellbrandt	Posted - 2007.10.27 16:18:00 - [37] what i dont get is when i price something say 5.99 and instead of going 5.98 they do 5.00
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.27 16:21:00 - [38] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 27/10/2007 16:20:59 Frankly, maybe because they have a life and they do not live in this game 23/7 to do 0.01 ISK? If you have a problem with that, why not buy them and resell at your 0.01 ISK value at 5.99? :D --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Krystal Vernet Minmatar Midnight Captains	Posted - 2007.10.27 16:21:00 - [39] Originally by: Gamer4liff Edited by: Gamer4liff on 27/10/2007 16:12:38 It is competitive, it is the most competitive thing you can do to undercut and maintain a .01 isk edge. It requires a good deal of maintenance to make sure you maintain your lead, and can suck up a lot of time if you sell multiple items in multiple regions. It's much more challenging than being a tard and taking the lazy way out by undercutting by 10% or more of the item's value. How is it more competitive than boldly undercutting the price? When these people do that, that can force the other sellers to react by drastically lowering their price to continue selling. When that happens, that one seller controls the price of that item in that area. By forcing you to choose between making less of a profit (or even potential loss) to sell or sticking with your higher price and not selling, he is, in effect, competing on a much bigger scale than simply lowering the price by a penny. Sure, you both make more profit doing the penny way, but it's not competing. It's more along the lines of cooperation. "We'll just trade off penny price differences for days on end." versus "I'll undercut you by a good bit and force you to either react to me to continue selling or keeping your price, but not selling as long as I hold this price." Which is more competition?
Ivy Axisur	Posted - 2007.10.27 16:21:00 - [40] Originally by: Krystal Vernet You guys seem to be under the misunderstanding that the guy who sells low really cares about you and your profit. Nothing annoys me more than the .01 ISK difference between prices, because then there's no real difference between the prices. The item may as well be sold by a single person. That's not a competitive market. It's just a group of people who want to maximize their profit without much thought to the pricing process, and are too lazy to properly compete. Ok, this is exactly what IÆm talking about. You seem to be under the misunderstanding that driving down item value is beneficial to you because you make a quick buck. Then I beat your price by .01 ISK. ThatÆs lazy.
Fester Addams Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.27 16:22:00 - [41] Originally by: Ivy Axisur Originally by: Fester Addams Ehh, did the prices drop? Within 1 month they when from 1.4mill to 2.6 mil then down to 1.7 mill. I think it was the work of an individual. Still dont look like the price is dropping to me, in one week there was a large demand on datacores, like mentioned above the dev blog on the new T2 ships came out and people bought upp all the "cheap" cores in anticipation of the comming increase in price. This left only the datacores too expensive to buy atm on the market making it look like a price hike. Naturally people farming such cores take this opportunity to upp the prices a bit and here we are now. Datacores is a limited comodity, the average player aquiering them will get about 9 units per char, dedicated players doing the extra work can possibly doubble that but I doubt few will. The demand however is high, a single invention run for a frigg will use 2 cores, a cruiser will use 8. Thus a single cruiser invention run will deplete a single chars full aquisition of cores for a day and a good inventor can run multiple invention runs at the same time. The gist of this is that datacores will increase in price alot more. That is not market manipulation, that is supply and demand. Personally I would not use datacores as an example, better if you use an open ended supply item such as a ship or module.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.27 16:22:00 - [42] Edited by: d026 on 27/10/2007 16:24:55 Originally by: Meiers some people get their items through buy orders. This means over a month they could probably get 20 of a specific item at a very low price. Then he decides to sell them, and he can put whatever price as long as its not lower than what he purchased them at. In some markets this does not make sense. Especially if there is almost no competition and high demand.. but people still do it.. and why sell something cheaper than possible?
Sarah McTeef	Posted - 2007.10.27 16:23:00 - [43] Originally by: Ivy Axisur Ok, this is exactly what IÆm talking about. You seem to be under the misunderstanding that driving down item value is beneficial to you because you make a quick buck. Then I beat your price by .01 ISK. ThatÆs lazy. You're trying to price fix so everyone can make more money. People who do this habitually are trying to **** you off. It's not a difficult concept.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.27 16:23:00 - [44] Edited by: d026 on 27/10/2007 16:25:38 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Well if you want me to put it bluntly in the context of carebears vs non-carebears. 0.01 ISK undercut is for carebears and millions of ISKs undercut is for non-carebears. :) undercutting by 0.1 is basic marketing.. people buy from me weather you undercut you by 0.00001 isk or 100000 isk
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Estate	Posted - 2007.10.27 16:39:00 - [45] This thread is hilarious for many reasons. Oh, there are many valid points in here, but I don't want to get into by pointing out who knows what they're doing and who doesn't. So this is really just me pointing out my amusement and love for this discussion. Could we move this to Market discussion also, would love to see how that'll go =D
Fester Addams Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.27 16:39:00 - [46] Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 27/10/2007 16:26:41 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Well if you want me to put it bluntly in the context of carebears vs non-carebears. 0.01 ISK undercut is for carebears and millions of ISKs undercut is for non-carebears. :) undercutting by 0.1 is basic marketing.. people buy from me weather i undercut you by 0.00001 isk or 100000 isk. you are just doing charity. No she is trying to force you out of buisness. I do the same thing, I want to maximize my profits but rather than playing the 0.01 isk game I drop the price a considerable amount to show my competitors that I am serious! Back off and let me have this market! True new competitors always come out of the woodworks, especially if you are trading in a hub such as Jita but that is what makes the trading game fun. What is really fun is when some shmuck buys your whole stock of an item and places it back on the market at a 20% price increase only to find out the hard way that I had a large stock of the item in reserve. You see its not always wise to put upp your whole stock at once... In the Jack selling exxecutioners post above, if he had put upp 100 ships he would have been undercut, the OP states so herself but 10... let em sell out. Then put upp another 10, and another 10... Five or six such orders later the others may get wise to the fact that he is actually selling 100+ units, just a few at a time :) The market has alot of weapons, price is only one of them.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.10.27 16:45:00 - [47] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Well if you want me to put it bluntly in the context of carebears vs non-carebears. 0.01 ISK undercut is for carebears and millions of ISKs undercut is for non-carebears. :) So I take it you do lots of .01 isk undercutting?
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.10.27 16:51:00 - [48] Originally by: Krystal Vernet Originally by: Gamer4liff Edited by: Gamer4liff on 27/10/2007 16:12:38 It is competitive, it is the most competitive thing you can do to undercut and maintain a .01 isk edge. It requires a good deal of maintenance to make sure you maintain your lead, and can suck up a lot of time if you sell multiple items in multiple regions. It's much more challenging than being a tard and taking the lazy way out by undercutting by 10% or more of the item's value. How is it more competitive than boldly undercutting the price? When these people do that, that can force the other sellers to react by drastically lowering their price to continue selling. When that happens, that one seller controls the price of that item in that area. By forcing you to choose between making less of a profit (or even potential loss) to sell or sticking with your higher price and not selling, he is, in effect, competing on a much bigger scale than simply lowering the price by a penny. Sure, you both make more profit doing the penny way, but it's not competing. It's more along the lines of cooperation. "We'll just trade off penny price differences for days on end." versus "I'll undercut you by a good bit and force you to either react to me to continue selling or keeping your price, but not selling as long as I hold this price." Which is more competition? it's different kinds of competition, they both can get equally heated, although one is more of a **** move than the other.
Ivy Axisur	Posted - 2007.10.27 17:05:00 - [49] Ok, there are 5 general types of players on the market: 1.Those who donÆt care. (and they never will, but they have little impact on the market). 2.Those who go out of their way to be annoying. (Plenty of these in RL as well; just got to deal with them.) 3.The few who have the ability to deal in low profit large volume. (Many think thatÆs them, but most are wrong. I do know some who can pull this off for real and I take my hat of to them.) 4.The charitable who think they are helping the little guy. (honorable thought, but it really doesnÆt work that way.) 5.Lastly, there are those who ôthinkö they are clever, that they can control the market by lowering prices drastically. These are the ones this post is directed at. #5s, you are wrong, you just arenÆt seeing it.
Mr Funkadelic Tenacious Danes Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.10.27 17:17:00 - [50] Im to lazy to update my sell ordres everyday,so i just undercut everyone by alot. I hate people who undercut by .01 - But nothing i can do about it so, guess i have to live with it O_o
Arii Smith Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.10.27 17:19:00 - [51] You 0.01 undercut guys are exactly why I never buy from people I can tell are screwing with pennies. You guys are pretty obnoxious and arrogant to think that because someone is not playing your little game that they are stupid. They are smart, because whether they have a higher or a lower price, I (and I am sure others) prefer to buy from someone who is not a twit. Undercutting my 0.01 all the time is something a twit does, and brands you as someone I would prefer not to support if at all possible.
Arii Smith Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.10.27 17:20:00 - [52] Originally by: Ivy Axisur Ok, there are 5 general types of players on the market: 1.Those who donÆt care. (and they never will, but they have little impact on the market). 2.Those who go out of their way to be annoying. (Plenty of these in RL as well; just got to deal with them.) 3.The few who have the ability to deal in low profit large volume. (Many think thatÆs them, but most are wrong. I do know some who can pull this off for real and I take my hat of to them.) 4.The charitable who think they are helping the little guy. (honorable thought, but it really doesnÆt work that way.) 5.Lastly, there are those who ôthinkö they are clever, that they can control the market by lowering prices drastically. These are the ones this post is directed at. #5s, you are wrong, you just arenÆt seeing it. This kind of post is the kind of thing Ginger Magician would say if he manufactured, you idiot.
Inspiration	Posted - 2007.10.27 17:23:00 - [53] Edited by: Inspiration on 27/10/2007 17:23:58 Originally by: Ivy Axisur Edited by: Ivy Axisur on 27/10/2007 15:38:15 Listen, I respect anyone who can flat-out beat me by having more ISK (trade power) or manufacturing capability. But 99% of the time they just drive market prices down. Recently I saw a major price spike in Mechanical Engineering datacores in all markets. Whoever pulled that one off was brilliant. LOL That someone is called CCP. This game undergoes changes and those changes change demands. New T2 ships combined with certain nerfs to existing ones, will increase demand for the new ships. And since the ones needing those ships are the wealthy, prices can go up by a lot as demand is higher then supply. Right now people will stock up on the relevant T1 ships, remove BPO from manufacturing to make BPC for invention and buy mechanical datacores for the production, etc. In short....expand your view of the game beyond market manipulation and see the bigger truths :). This topic is priceless tho, one of the most annying things in the game gets glorified and everyone else called idiots...this must be the mother of all whines.... Thx for the amusement :)
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.10.27 17:24:00 - [54] Some markets seem to have people automatically dropping their prices to .01 isk below the lowest several times per day. Picking your timing right and dropping one unit onto the market really low can net you a good few bargains by exploiting those people. ----- Visible Implants - good for so many occasions
Ivy Axisur	Posted - 2007.10.27 17:29:00 - [55] Originally by: Arii Smith you idiot. Oh, wait û thereÆs category 6 the person with nothing intelligent to contribute. Ok, IÆm done, this post has degraded to the point they always do.
CampyloBacter Gallente Chlamydia Online	Posted - 2007.10.27 17:31:00 - [56] As a 'consumer' who never bothers with the vagaries of Eve economics, I find the 0.01 Isk undercutter thoroughly irritating. In fact, I make a conscious effort to NOT buy from sellers who adopt such a practice. I always pay 0.01 isk more for an item to make myself feel happy that I'm wasting the time of an individual who is so anally-retentive.
Ivy Axisur	Posted - 2007.10.27 17:44:00 - [57] Originally by: CampyloBacter As a 'consumer' who never bothers with the vagaries of Eve economics, I find the 0.01 Isk undercutter thoroughly irritating. In fact, I make a conscious effort to NOT buy from sellers who adopt such a practice. I always pay 0.01 isk more for an item to make myself feel happy that I'm wasting the time of an individual who is so anally-retentive. Ok, one more post. I understand where youÆre coming from. I used to think the same before I really got involved with the markets in a big way. But hereÆs how it really works. I post at 1 mill You post at 900 I post at 899.99 You 800 and so on. Eventually the item becomes devalued to the point that people stop manufacturing it. Then someone comes in, buys up the lot and jacks the price. Then it starts all over again. IÆm not whining or complaining about this, just saying to other people on the market that the 1 ISK change at fair prices puts more money in the pocket of everyone and actually prevents massive price gauging that only benefits a few. plus 99.9% of the buyers just click on the lowest price. it;s not about making .01 ISK, it's just about being on top.
omiNATION Gallente	Posted - 2007.10.27 17:52:00 - [58] Edited by: omiNATION on 27/10/2007 17:52:35 EVE, basically an MMORPG with prison rules.
Fester Addams Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.27 17:57:00 - [59] Originally by: Ivy Axisur Ok, there are 5 general types of players on the market: 1.Those who donÆt care. (and they never will, but they have little impact on the market). 2.Those who go out of their way to be annoying. (Plenty of these in RL as well; just got to deal with them.) 3.The few who have the ability to deal in low profit large volume. (Many think thatÆs them, but most are wrong. I do know some who can pull this off for real and I take my hat of to them.) 4.The charitable who think they are helping the little guy. (honorable thought, but it really doesnÆt work that way.) 5.Lastly, there are those who ôthinkö they are clever, that they can control the market by lowering prices drastically. These are the ones this post is directed at. #5s, you are wrong, you just arenÆt seeing it. So wich one are you? You seem not to consider yourself to be in the third category. I know you are not in the first as you have posted this thread. I supose you can be category two again you posted this thread but its not very likelly. As you are complaining about people lowering the prices I would not say you fit in four ither. Thus by way of ilimination you much consider yourself to be category five, dosnt fit perfectly but its the best fit of the 5 general types of players on the market. Well there is naturally the 6th you posted a bit below and the possibility that you are not playing the market but again, number five fits better still. Personally I think you are leaving out all the really important ones: #12. those that dump prices because they loot loads of stuff and have few market slots (thanx pirate gal above). #33. Those that need fast isk and are willing to cut their profit to get the isk fast. #257. Those who cut their profit out of lazyness. #876. Those that cut their profits in order to remove some or all of their competition. #1337. Those that play the market at a different level than you.
Meiers	Posted - 2007.10.27 18:00:00 - [60] Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 27/10/2007 16:24:55 Originally by: Meiers some people get their items through buy orders. This means over a month they could probably get 20 of a specific item at a very low price. Then he decides to sell them, and he can put whatever price as long as its not lower than what he purchased them at. In some markets this does not make sense. Especially if there is almost no competition and high demand.. but people still do it.. and why sell something cheaper than possible? lazyness, some people also need instant money and will sell for less.
CampyloBacter Gallente Chlamydia Online	Posted - 2007.10.27 18:02:00 - [61] Originally by: Garrick Konquero The purchase always goes to the seller with the lowest price in the station, even if you consciously choose otherwise. Moreover, the seller with the lowest price in the station gets the price you wanted to pay to the other seller. So, ironically, not only are you still buying from the 0.01 undercutter, he is receiving the purchase price of the other, therefore making more money than he would have otherwise. This makes me if this is the case then I'm going to have to avoid hubs altogether. ****in' stoopid if you ask me.. Why don't I have the right to buy from whoever I choose?
Fester Addams Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.27 18:06:00 - [62] Hmm, memories are funny things. This thread reminds me of back in the day when Mom (I think she was called mom) and her gang of industrialists dicided to get together and split upp empire into market slots. The idea was that if you wanted to get into the market you should contact Mom and she would assign you an outlet area for you to sell in. The theory was that by doing this they could keep the prices for goods at the "intended level", the intended level aparently was what CCP had invisioned prices should be and was based on the NPC prices on ships and modules (yes back in the day NPC corps sold ships and modules). Naturally later additions to the manufacturing game did not want to have lower nowhere as their output location as lower nowhere had little or no population and thus they simply moved into the hubs and started competing. Mom and her gang got furious about this, they kept spamming the forums about their treaty and the way it was suposed to be, they even lobbied CCP so hard that Mom got on one of the player-CCP interaction boards to avocate her ideas that included the wish to be allowed to get the equvilent of kill rights on any unauthorised sellers in empire, fun stuff really. Naturally all but them just laughed and went on shaving costs of their BPO's by increasing ME and skills untill prices stabilized in the different regions. The same will happen here, there is no law of ecconomics that state that you should always maximize your profit per unit, nor is there a law that states you should look to the long run and maximize your profit for whole series. In reality most markets sell many things at a loss as honey pots, you come in for the pot and end upp buying the pie and the cake as well. Its the old what you loose on the caruosell you get back on the swings rule. I am in no way claiming to be a major market player, I do some buisness, mainly in T2 stuff. I do underbid by a great deal, partly because its the best way for me to get my sales but I must admit that ****ing the 0.01 isk people off is a clear bonus. There is nothing that beats comming home to an outlet station and noticing that 5 or 6 people have undercut me by 0.01-0.04, usually its 39.999.999,99, 39.999.999,98, 39.999.999,00 and 39.999.998,99 or similar. The amusing thing is that more often than not the competing players are in different stations but they still by reflex put in that -0.01isk change. Anyhow, nothing beats comming in there and dropping to 35mil, sure its a 5 mil lower profit but its fun, also I have seen people so into their -0.01 isk game that they fail to notice that I dropped so far and thus they keep competing for second lowest :) Anyhow, there are advantages of the 0.01 isk drop as well as with the 10% drop, you simply have to know when to use wich. And like I pointed out in an earlier thread, attracting sales can be done by other ways than the price. Ill give you one more now: If station 4 is the in house station, agents are there or some service that people need then going 0.01 isk under the lowest bid in that station will not get people to buy from you, noone in their right mind will hop one station for 0.01isk. To get the buyer over you will need other incentives, a 5 mil lower price might be enough...
Fester Addams Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.27 18:08:00 - [63] Originally by: CampyloBacter As a 'consumer' who never bothers with the vagaries of Eve economics, I find the 0.01 Isk undercutter thoroughly irritating. In fact, I make a conscious effort to NOT buy from sellers who adopt such a practice. I always pay 0.01 isk more for an item to make myself feel happy that I'm wasting the time of an individual who is so anally-retentive. Sadly this will only work if you buy from one of us even nice number sellers in a different station. If you choose to buy from a higher price seller the sale will still go to the lowest price seller in the station, however you will pay him the higher price. I hope you knew this :)
Ivy Axisur	Posted - 2007.10.27 18:13:00 - [64] Fester, IÆm not complaining, IÆm trying to make the point that both myself and my competitor can make more by working together for fair, stable, realistic pricing. This does not include your #12 or #33 which have no real effect on the market and #876 and #1337 are essentially my #3. And to answer you questions about which # I consider myself to be; I guess I left that one out. #7 is ôthe .01 ISK guy. IÆm also a junior #3.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.10.27 18:20:00 - [65] Haha, maybe it is also the purpose to destroy the market for a while and so to drive away other people and competitors? Market = pvp
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.10.27 18:24:00 - [66] Originally by: Gnulpie Haha, maybe it is also the purpose to destroy the market for a while and so to drive away other people and competitors? Market = pvp That doesn't work, especially in the normal T1 markets where there are many suppliers. When the price rises again, instinctively people arrive to manufacture more. The .01 undercut is the best way to maintain a lead, especially in the T2 market where there are less suppliers.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.10.27 18:29:00 - [67] Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Gnulpie Haha, maybe it is also the purpose to destroy the market for a while and so to drive away other people and competitors? Market = pvp That doesn't work, especially in the normal T1 markets where there are many suppliers. When the price rises again, instinctively people arrive to manufacture more. The .01 undercut is the best way to maintain a lead, especially in the T2 market where there are less suppliers. That completely depends on the markets. It won't work in Jita, true enough. There are just too many people there. But it works well on the smaller markets and with t2 stuff.
Ivy Axisur	Posted - 2007.10.27 18:29:00 - [68] Edited by: Ivy Axisur on 27/10/2007 18:29:55 To uncle Fester: Competing off of market hubs is a different story entirely. You are correct that if you want to draw someone off of Jita 4 and to another station you need noticeable better pricing. But look at pricing history graph. The Market takes a long time to recover from someone dumping an item too cheap. If I list at 4 mill and you post at 3, IÆll ignore your price if you have a short term supply, but long term supplies will force me and everyone else to price match you, undercutting by .01 ISK. LetÆs say 2.8 mill is the true cost of the time. With your 3 mill price and policy of not undercutting me by 1ISK, we will quickly fall to cost. Then weÆre stuck there. You really canÆt undercut me much more. One of us can buy the other out and nope there isnÆt much off-market inventory stock. Or we move on to other items with more profit. But my point is, and always has been, that if you never undercut so drastically we would have both moved our inventory at 3.9mill or so.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.10.27 18:31:00 - [69] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Gnulpie Haha, maybe it is also the purpose to destroy the market for a while and so to drive away other people and competitors? Market = pvp That doesn't work, especially in the normal T1 markets where there are many suppliers. When the price rises again, instinctively people arrive to manufacture more. The .01 undercut is the best way to maintain a lead, especially in the T2 market where there are less suppliers. That completely depends on the markets. It won't work in Jita, true enough. There are just too many people there. But it works well on the smaller markets and with t2 stuff. any region with more population than minmatar space will react to an increase in price.
Aerandir Telrunya Gallente Bears Inc	Posted - 2007.10.27 18:32:00 - [70] Edited by: Aerandir Telrunya on 27/10/2007 18:34:49 Interesting topic (no seriously!) - I never realised market pvp was so involved! I've got no experience in the area but I'm guessing the analogy goes something like this: You see a lone ship in a belt (say ratting) - sometimes depending on the person you are/how you are feeling etc etc. you'll warp in with a similar class of ship (obviously a bit better) and pew pew. Sometimes you'll win and sometimes you'll lose but at the end of the day if you do lose you've not lost much and + the time you'll win. - these are the 0.01 isk people Sometimes you'll get out your gankathron and completely obliterate him, with the hope that a) he won't come back or b) you want to be sure its an easy kill (ie. quick isk). - these are the drop by 1mill people The 0.01isk people will find that the guy will keep coming back as he wins half the time but you don't lose much either so no biggie where as the the 1mill guy might make a serious judgement call an lose his big bad ass ship (when the 0.01 isk guy comes back with friends ie. buys up all his stuff and re-sells) or he might succeed and drive the other guy off for good. That's about as far as my analogy goes but it seems to work and tbh it seems that they are just two different ways of tackling a situation both have their advantages and both have their disadvantages. I wouldn't say someone was dumb for doing one over the other and I would expect a good trader to do both depending on the situation.
Ivy Axisur	Posted - 2007.10.27 18:37:00 - [71] Originally by: Aerandir Telrunya Edited by: Aerandir Telrunya on 27/10/2007 18:34:49 Interesting topic (no seriously!) - I never realised market pvp was so involved! I've got no experience in the area but I'm guessing the analogy goes something like this: You see a lone ship in a belt (say ratting) - sometimes depending on the person you are/how you are feeling etc etc. you'll warp in with a similar class of ship (obviously a bit better) and pew pew. Sometimes you'll win and sometimes you'll lose but at the end of the day if you do lose you've not lost much and + the time you'll win. - these are the 0.01 isk people Sometimes you'll get out your gankathron and completely obliterate him, with the hope that a) he won't come back or b) you want to be sure its an easy kill (ie. quick isk). - these are the drop by 1mill people The 0.01isk people will find that the guy will keep coming back as he wins half the time but you don't lose much either so no biggie where as the the 1mill guy might make a serious judgement call an lose his big bad ass ship (when the 0.01 isk guy comes back with friends ie. buys up all his stuff and re-sells) or he might succeed and drive the other guy off for good. That's about as far as my analogy goes but it seems to work and tbh it seems that they are just two different ways of tackling a situation both have their advantages and both have their disadvantages. I wouldn't say someone was dumb for doing one over the other and I would expect a good trader to do both depending on the situation. Your right, to some extent and I retracted my ôStupidö comment earlier. (Unfortunately I can edit the title).
Fester Addams Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.27 18:42:00 - [72] Originally by: Ivy Axisur Fester, IÆm not complaining, IÆm trying to make the point that both myself and my competitor can make more by working together for fair, stable, realistic pricing. This does not include your #12 or #33 which have no real effect on the market and #876 and #1337 are essentially my #3. And to answer you questions about which # I consider myself to be; I guess I left that one out. #7 is ôthe .01 ISK guy. IÆm also a junior #3. I do agree with you that if you manage to get a conglomerate going the people in it will profit. The problem is that the EvE market is an uncontrolable market people get in and out, no regulation, barelly no fees and the reasons for people to be there are as many as there are participants. The one thing all have in common is that all wish to sell stuff and expect isk in return. I can understand why some people play the 0.01 isk game, for a small trader with lots of time it is a great way to make isk. Pick a good spot, set upp your sales and monitor. However once you get past that and start trading more as an industry then movement of goods become more important than isk gain per unit. The pivit point for this is actually suprisingly early. In order to set upp the sales you have to have the goods at the right places, in order to have the goods at the right places you need stock of goods, in order to have stocks of goods you need manufacturing running, in order to have manufacturing running you need minerals and most manufacturers today buy their minerals ie you need isk. Since the mineral prices go upp and down alot you tend to invest in them when they are cheap wich can leave you with huge sums of isk tied upp in assets you wont use now thus the sales must roll so that you can keep the whole thing rolling. Isk is the grease that lubricates the whole thing. I am not involved with the whole process but have my fingers in many jars of jam, some bigger some smaller but all have a need to make sales constantly. Thus when I sell stuff I dont want to share the market with you, I dont want to loose 50% of my profit to you when I can chase you off by lowering my profit by 10, 20 or even 30% I will still end upp with a net gain. Additionally I usually have well over 100 sales orders out and several of thise will be underbid by the 0.01 players only monetoring possibly 30 trades before I can update all of mine thus my best option is to run the others off. The fastest and easiest way to do that is to lower my prices alot. best case scenareo is that you buy my stock after I drop my price the first time clearing me my profit instantly and then you have the market untill I can restock that item, this is actually prefered by me as I get my isk fast and hassle free... the fact that you will get less than a weeks fun free of me is besides the point ;) Personally I dont have any illution that I can make a great dent in the prices of the game, prices fluctuate almost every day, an item I put upp for 300k one day I may put upp for 1.3mil the next and likewise I might lower an order not selling for 1.5 mil to 700k to get the item moving. I follow the market where it is going, I try to get rid of my competition via price and other incentives however as a whole I am just one petit player in a huge market. In summation, I hope you are not trying to move stuff in competition with me, I will keep being "stupid" and do large price drops to try to get rid of you.
Inspiration	Posted - 2007.10.27 18:45:00 - [73] Lets not forget BOT sellers! No player can compete with a BOT seller that can react immediately and undercuts you by 0.01. People will feel the need to seriously lower price in order to sell anything at all. Real life, sleep and the annoying process of baby-sitting your orders while you can do something more productive is what drives people to hate 0.01 kind of players (like the OP). Then on top of it we, all the others, get called stupid (but we make much more ISK). Copying the pricing style of a BOT, knowing you cannot compete with it following that same strategy is what I would qualify as stupid....but thats just me :).
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.10.27 18:48:00 - [74] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 27/10/2007 18:51:30 Originally by: Fester Addams In summation, I hope you are not trying to move stuff in competition with me, I will keep being "stupid" and do large price drops to try to get rid of you. And what do you do when you attempt to raise the price again and others come in to take advantage of it? There is no net gain from dropping the price in popular markets. It is impossible to eliminate competition in any of the medium or large markets on popular goods. I personally only do .01 undercuts because the markets I sell in are very specialized and have only a few (if any other than me) suppliers.
Saris Dadra Drifter Unincorporated	Posted - 2007.10.27 18:50:00 - [75] I don't undercut by insane amounts because I want to make a profit, I undercut by insane amounts because I don't want you to make a profit. I don't really care if I'm making less money than I could be, but I like the fact that as long as I hold the prices down your not making as much profit as you would otherwise be. If you buy my stock I'm more than happy to replenish it, and have you have all your isk tied up in assets you can't sell. It's PvP griefing in its finest form, live with it. --Saris
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.10.27 18:53:00 - [76] Originally by: Saris Dadra I don't undercut by insane amounts because I want to make a profit, I undercut by insane amounts because I don't want you to make a profit. I don't really care if I'm making less money than I could be, but I like the fact that as long as I hold the prices down your not making as much profit as you would otherwise be. If you buy my stock I'm more than happy to replenish it, and have you have all your isk tied up in assets you can't sell. It's PvP griefing in its finest form, live with it. --Saris This is why I don't bother with the T1 market right here. ---Gamer4liff
Inspiration	Posted - 2007.10.27 18:53:00 - [77] Originally by: Gamer4liff Edited by: Gamer4liff on 27/10/2007 18:49:46 Edited by: Gamer4liff on 27/10/2007 18:48:43 Originally by: Fester Addams In summation, I hope you are not trying to move stuff in competition with me, I will keep being "stupid" and do large price drops to try to get rid of you. And what do you do when you attempt to raise the price again and others come in to take advantage of it? There is no net gain from dropping the price in popular markets. It is impossible to eliminate competition in any of the medium or large markets on popular goods. He makes ISK by selling in volume and doing that at a relentless pace, like all the bigger industrialist do. He doesn't have to up the price as he has no control, he just follows the uncontrollable market and undercuts it enough to get rid of his inventory before he gets more stuff out of the factories.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.10.27 18:56:00 - [78] Originally by: Inspiration Originally by: Gamer4liff Edited by: Gamer4liff on 27/10/2007 18:49:46 Edited by: Gamer4liff on 27/10/2007 18:48:43 Originally by: Fester Addams In summation, I hope you are not trying to move stuff in competition with me, I will keep being "stupid" and do large price drops to try to get rid of you. And what do you do when you attempt to raise the price again and others come in to take advantage of it? There is no net gain from dropping the price in popular markets. It is impossible to eliminate competition in any of the medium or large markets on popular goods. He makes ISK by selling in volume and doing that at a relentless pace, like all the bigger industrialist do. He doesn't have to up the price as he has no control, he just follows the uncontrollable market and undercuts it enough to get rid of his inventory before he gets more stuff out of the factories. You say he has no control over the price, but he says he can drop the price to force people out of the market. So which is it?
Saris Dadra Drifter Unincorporated	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:01:00 - [79] Originally by: Gamer4liff This is why I don't bother with the T1 market right here. ---Gamer4liff Glad I could help --Saris
moschka	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:03:00 - [80] Actually i agree with this post. I made some badgers and a guy sold some badgers 1 jump away in same region. He sold them way under productioncost...so i bought them and resold them.Then i asked him how he could produce them soo cheap?? Because i was kind of new to this game i figured i was missing something. He told me he only had a cost about 300 k a batch....(manufactoringcost)soo, were was the cost for minerals?? He had done this for 2 year and really didnt think of do the math about it... I earned 500 k each badger I didnt see him selling badgers anymore in that system, he prob realized he had done wrong for a couple of years. I think people dont think too much in this game, they just do things mos
Inspiration	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:03:00 - [81] Edited by: Inspiration on 27/10/2007 19:04:57 Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Inspiration Originally by: Gamer4liff Edited by: Gamer4liff on 27/10/2007 18:49:46 Edited by: Gamer4liff on 27/10/2007 18:48:43 Originally by: Fester Addams In summation, I hope you are not trying to move stuff in competition with me, I will keep being "stupid" and do large price drops to try to get rid of you. And what do you do when you attempt to raise the price again and others come in to take advantage of it? There is no net gain from dropping the price in popular markets. It is impossible to eliminate competition in any of the medium or large markets on popular goods. He makes ISK by selling in volume and doing that at a relentless pace, like all the bigger industrialist do. He doesn't have to up the price as he has no control, he just follows the uncontrollable market and undercuts it enough to get rid of his inventory before he gets more stuff out of the factories. You say he has no control over the price, but he says he can drop the price to force people out of the market. So which is it? It is not a contradiction! He has no control on the price that the good actually sell at, but he does control his own pricing versus others. In addition to that he can optimize the production costs. He could for example buy ore for say 10% below what he would have to pay for refined minerals on the market. He can use both fast and slow moving buy orders for said minerals. Both in effect lowering his production costs relative to the situation of buying all minerals directly in Jita by paying more then other peoples buy orders. I think the focus here is too much on the selling part, and not enough on the just as important other parts that help make a profit and determine who winds and who does not. The realy scarce good here isn't the ISK, its the players time and always will be! That is what you should optimize for! And that dear players, renders the 0.01 strategy a lame duck compared to all other fair (bot-less) strategies out there :). Does this make sense to you?
Fester Addams Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:04:00 - [82] Originally by: Gamer4liff Edited by: Gamer4liff on 27/10/2007 18:49:46 Edited by: Gamer4liff on 27/10/2007 18:48:43 And what do you do when you attempt to raise the price again and others come in to take advantage of it? There is no net gain from dropping the price in popular markets. It is impossible to eliminate competition in any of the medium or large markets on popular goods. Who said I would raise the prices? Like I said Im looking for profit, I have a span in wich I can move, well I say span but that implies it has both a minimum and a maximum value, I have a minimum and a theoretical infinite maximum price. In order to be happy I will compete with people in price and other methods untill my profit margin drops too low, at that point I will step aside, just like everyone else... well almost everyone, you can push some people to sell even at a loss. Anyhow, my threashold is sometimes higher that my competition at wich time I am robbing them of their profit by denying them the possibility to raise prices above me without loosing their sales wich may or may not make them feel its not worth selling in competition with me. Or wich happens more frequently my competition bails. When this happens I am still making an acceptable profit, after a while I will start raising my prices untill I start gaining competition again, this would be the pivit point so I drop just below that and stay there. That was the simplified version. In reality you will have competition in all products with a decent possibility all the way even below where it generates profit. What you have to do is use other incentives. In any case, if you cant make a profit in this market then you might consider somthing easier such as piracy, ganking, mining...
Ivy Axisur	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:04:00 - [83] Fester, I see your strategy. It makes sense, but itÆs rarely the way I actually see it working. Your strategy sounds feasible (in fact itÆs what I do) with low-volume stuff. A monthÆs worth of some specific named item, a 10-run batch of T2. Generally speaking, I have a large number of small orders and several big ticket items (high value / large quantity). ItÆs only these that I monitor, and it never fails that someone eventually kills profitability. IÆve learned to adapt. I pull my inventory off the market and wait for the price to rise. Or try to force a price rise by buying up inventory when it gets close to cost. Still itÆs annoying and pointless to constantly go through this cycle, just because someone on the market doesnÆt recognize the pattern.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:08:00 - [84] Originally by: Fester Addams Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 27/10/2007 16:26:41 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Well if you want me to put it bluntly in the context of carebears vs non-carebears. 0.01 ISK undercut is for carebears and millions of ISKs undercut is for non-carebears. :) undercutting by 0.1 is basic marketing.. people buy from me weather i undercut you by 0.00001 isk or 100000 isk. you are just doing charity. No she is trying to force you out of buisness. I do the same thing, I want to maximize my profits but rather than playing the 0.01 isk game I drop the price a considerable amount to show my competitors that I am serious! Back off and let me have this market! True new competitors always come out of the woodworks, especially if you are trading in a hub such as Jita but that is what makes the trading game fun. What is really fun is when some shmuck buys your whole stock of an item and places it back on the market at a 20% price increase only to find out the hard way that I had a large stock of the item in reserve. You see its not always wise to put upp your whole stock at once... In the Jack selling exxecutioners post above, if he had put upp 100 ships he would have been undercut, the OP states so herself but 10... let em sell out. Then put upp another 10, and another 10... Five or six such orders later the others may get wise to the fact that he is actually selling 100+ units, just a few at a time :) The market has alot of weapons, price is only one of them. Seling for LESS than you could is not maximizing your profits. Its maximizing your turnover..
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:10:00 - [85] I could see different strategies working in different markets. I myself really only have a lot of experience in specialized T2 markets of the things I produce. For those markets people generally follow standard .01 procedure (except for the tards who sell at region average even if there are no other sell orders). It really all depends on the market. but what doesn't make sense to me is people undercutting in small amounts like 100 or 10, or even 1. .01 does the job fine enough.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:13:00 - [86] People who drop by 0.01 ISK are annoying. Especially when it is on items that cost millions. What's the big difference between 0.01, 1, 100, or even 10,000 ISK when you are selling say 20 Items that cost 10 mil each?
Fester Addams Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:15:00 - [87] Originally by: Ivy Axisur Fester, I see your strategy. It makes sense, but itÆs rarely the way I actually see it working. Your strategy sounds feasible (in fact itÆs what I do) with low-volume stuff. A monthÆs worth of some specific named item, a 10-run batch of T2. Generally speaking, I have a large number of small orders and several big ticket items (high value / large quantity). ItÆs only these that I monitor, and it never fails that someone eventually kills profitability. IÆve learned to adapt. I pull my inventory off the market and wait for the price to rise. Or try to force a price rise by buying up inventory when it gets close to cost. Just out of curiosity.. by pulling it off market do you meen cancelling the order and loosing your fees or do you meen simply leaving the order in place bumping it from time to time with small alterations in wait of better times? Quote: Still itÆs annoying and pointless to constantly go through this cycle, just because someone on the market doesnÆt recognize the pattern. Dont get me wrong here, I know the pattern, I see it and know how it works, even have the T-shirt with the pattern splattered all over both front and back, Im simply one of those that profit from the fact that others think the pattern is law.
Ivy Axisur	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:17:00 - [88] Originally by: d026 Seling for LESS than you could is not maximizing your profits. Its maximizing your turnover.. Very true!
Inspiration	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:17:00 - [89] Originally by: Reem Fairchild People who drop by 0.01 ISK are annoying. Especially when it is on items that cost millions. What's the big difference between 0.01, 1, 100, or even 10,000 ISK when you are selling say 20 Items that cost 10 mil each? The obvious difference is that more order changes happen, depriving people of time better spend elsewhere in the game. So by its very nature its far from optimal to use 0.01, as the possible gains of earning say, that 100k ISK more per item is kind of worthless when you can pop a NPC in say 1 minute and have more ISK. Also, the gain you get with tighter pricing is not structural, but gains you get by optimizing BPO and mineral buying strategies is. So all the 0.01 folks are just annoying people, ruin their own and others time and end up with less ISK then they otherwise would have. And they think they are smart ofcourse, so others must be stupid :) I think you get the idea :)
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:19:00 - [90] Edited by: d026 on 27/10/2007 19:20:59 Originally by: Reem Fairchild People who drop by 0.01 ISK are annoying. Especially when it is on items that cost millions. What's the big difference between 0.01, 1, 100, or even 10,000 ISK when you are selling say 20 Items that cost 10 mil each? ther difference is rationality. why sell for 9.98 when you can sell for 9.99? if you dont care about maximizing your profits you are doing charity.
Ivy Axisur	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:20:00 - [91] Originally by: Fester Addams Just out of curiosity.. by pulling it off market do you meen cancelling the order and loosing your fees or do you meen simply leaving the order in place bumping it from time to time with small alterations in wait of better times? Quote: Both I guess, some times I just stop managing the price, and then get a nice surprise 2 months later when it sells. Other times IÆll pull it off the market, loosing my fees if I think I can sell it elsewhere.
Ivy Axisur	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:24:00 - [92] Originally by: Reem Fairchild People who drop by 0.01 ISK are annoying. Especially when it is on items that cost millions. What's the big difference between 0.01, 1, 100, or even 10,000 ISK when you are selling say 20 Items that cost 10 mil each? This comment has been posted several times. ItÆs not about 1 ISK, itÆs about being the lowest price at a major hub system. No one buys the second lowest price. So itÆs about being #1, not 1 ISK.
Fester Addams Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:26:00 - [93] Originally by: d026 Seling for LESS than you could is not maximizing your profits. Its maximizing your turnover.. I may not use the correct term but what I am after when playing the market is to have more isk generated at the end of the day. If your cost for bilding a ship is 5 mil and you sell it for 15 in a given time period then your profit is 10 mil for that time period. With the same production cost my profit would be better if I sold three ships at 10 mil each if I manage this in the same time period as the profit is 5 mil per ship or 15 mil in total. Thus by dropping my price by a third I actually increase my profit as at the end of the day I have more isk in my wallet.
Ivy Axisur	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:29:00 - [94] Originally by: Fester Addams Originally by: d026 Seling for LESS than you could is not maximizing your profits. Its maximizing your turnover.. I may not use the correct term but what I am after when playing the market is to have more isk generated at the end of the day. If your cost for bilding a ship is 5 mil and you sell it for 15 in a given time period then your profit is 10 mil for that time period. With the same production cost my profit would be better if I sold three ships at 10 mil each if I manage this in the same time period as the profit is 5 mil per ship or 15 mil in total. Thus by dropping my price by a third I actually increase my profit as at the end of the day I have more isk in my wallet. HereÆs where I disagree with you Fester. If I sell my car for 1,000 dollars, I have more money in my wallet. And since I own no money on my car IÆve made a profit. But the car is worth many times that, so itÆs still not a smart move.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:30:00 - [95] Edited by: d026 on 27/10/2007 19:31:20 Originally by: Fester Addams Originally by: d026 Seling for LESS than you could is not maximizing your profits. Its maximizing your turnover.. I may not use the correct term but what I am after when playing the market is to have more isk generated at the end of the day. If your cost for bilding a ship is 5 mil and you sell it for 15 in a given time period then your profit is 10 mil for that time period. With the same production cost my profit would be better if I sold three ships at 10 mil each if I manage this in the same time period as the profit is 5 mil per ship or 15 mil in total. Thus by dropping my price by a third I actually increase my profit as at the end of the day I have more isk in my wallet. this does not apply when i have a garanted marked volume of 15k items / day (check marked history ingame) then undercut by 5mil.. i would sell aprox exactely the same if i had undercut by 0.1 instead and earned me 5 additional milions each sale... so it does not make sense to undercut by such huge margins..
Ivy Axisur	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:35:00 - [96] Originally by: d026 this does not apply when i have a garanted marked volume of 15k items / day (check marked history ingame) then undercut by 5mil.. i would sell aprox exactely the same if i had undercut by 0.1 instead and earned me 5 additional milions each sale... so it does not make sense to undercut by such huge margins.. EXACTLY!!
Fester Addams Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:42:00 - [97] Originally by: Ivy Axisur HereÆs where I disagree with you Fester. If I sell my car for 1,000 dollars, I have more money in my wallet. And since I own no money on my car IÆve made a profit. But the car is worth many times that, so itÆs still not a smart move. Ahh but you are missing that I specify the production cost. You claim that I was saying that if you sell your car worth say 10k for 1000 you have more isk in your wallet and thus you have made a profit. We both know this is flawed as in reality you made a loss of 9000. If you however compare buying one car for 5k and in a week selling it for 15k in a week as oposed to buying 3 cars for 5k each and selling them all in a week for 10k each. In the first case you would have 15k deduct the 5k initial investment and you have 10k profit. In the second case you have 30k deduct the 15k investment and you have a 15k profit. 10<15 The car has a value in itself, in eve that is a value based on aquisition cost just as it is in reality and also on the production cost. I must say however that ither that was a cheap shot or... well I overestimated you :)
Ivy Axisur	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:42:00 - [98] Anyways, IÆm off for now and by the time I get back this post will probably be long dead. Thanks for the spirited debate. Fester û I respect your opinion and you make some good points, but I disagree with you. d026, Gamer4liff, and the rest of the 1ISK sellers û thank you, I wont screw up your profits either.
Inspiration	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:44:00 - [99] Originally by: Ivy Axisur Originally by: d026 this does not apply when i have a garanted marked volume of 15k items / day (check marked history ingame) then undercut by 5mil.. i would sell aprox exactely the same if i had undercut by 0.1 instead and earned me 5 additional milions each sale... so it does not make sense to undercut by such huge margins.. EXACTLY!! You can win every battle and still loose a war!!! There exists such a thing as strategy, you are just micro managing. That breaks down pretty fast as you scale up, at which point you must develop better strategies!
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:46:00 - [100] Originally by: Inspiration Originally by: Ivy Axisur Originally by: d026 this does not apply when i have a garanted marked volume of 15k items / day (check marked history ingame) then undercut by 5mil.. i would sell aprox exactely the same if i had undercut by 0.1 instead and earned me 5 additional milions each sale... so it does not make sense to undercut by such huge margins.. EXACTLY!! You can win every battle and still loose a war!!! There exists such a thing as strategy, you are just micro managing. That breaks down pretty fast as you scale up, at which point you must develop better strategies! so whats your daily profit and turnover?
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:50:00 - [101] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 27/10/2007 19:55:11 Originally by: Inspiration Originally by: Reem Fairchild People who drop by 0.01 ISK are annoying. Especially when it is on items that cost millions. What's the big difference between 0.01, 1, 100, or even 10,000 ISK when you are selling say 20 Items that cost 10 mil each? The obvious difference is that more order changes happen, depriving people of time better spend elsewhere in the game. So by its very nature its far from optimal to use 0.01, as the possible gains of earning say, that 100k ISK more per item is kind of worthless when you can pop a NPC in say 1 minute and have more ISK. Also, the gain you get with tighter pricing is not structural, but gains you get by optimizing BPO and mineral buying strategies is. So all the 0.01 folks are just annoying people, ruin their own and others time and end up with less ISK then they otherwise would have. And they think they are smart ofcourse, so others must be stupid :) I think you get the idea :) Oh boo hoo you have to modify the sales price a few times a day, god forbid people have to keep an eye on their sales figures. And the reason for any drop in price, especially at .01 isk is to maintain the lowest price in the region. This is especially important for big-ticket items like ships, as people are more likely to go with the lowest, even if it is a few more jumps away. EDIT: beaten by Ivy Axisur
Fester Addams Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:54:00 - [102] Originally by: Ivy Axisur Originally by: d026 this does not apply when i have a garanted marked volume of 15k items / day (check marked history ingame) then undercut by 5mil.. i would sell aprox exactely the same if i had undercut by 0.1 instead and earned me 5 additional milions each sale... so it does not make sense to undercut by such huge margins.. EXACTLY!! True, if the market is steadilly selling 15 units per day and altering the price drastically did not alter this then I can not fall back on this. There is however the dance to consider. If I you and d026 all sell the same ship in a sytem and all update often with the 0.01 method then I can only hope to get 33% of the sales. If I can by dropping my price by 5 mil scare one of you off then I will suddenly sell 50% of the ships, thats an increase from 5 per day to 7.5 ods are that the sudden drop in price will give me an edge wich meens I will have a good chance of rounding my sales upp to 8 while the competitor that sticks ends upp with 7. Thus part of my lost profit per ship will be regained by more sales. If I hit the jackpot and scare both of you off I go from selling 5 ships to selling 15 wich should clear me a higher profit.
Inspiration	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:56:00 - [103] Originally by: d026 Originally by: Inspiration You can win every battle and still loose a war!!! There exists such a thing as strategy, you are just micro managing. That breaks down pretty fast as you scale up, at which point you must develop better strategies! so whats your daily profit and turnover? whats your net profit ratio? must be pretty horible if you sell under market price.. I am a small scale ship builder, so I get between 150-250m a day depending on market conditions. And I would hardly make a blip on the radar of the big boys! Still I am earning more per day and with less effort (next to none) then I used to do when I was doing level 4 missions. And on top of it, its a pretty constant flow of ISK, allowing me to focus on other stuff in the game which not necessarily need to be profitable!
Ivy Axisur	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:59:00 - [104] Edited by: Ivy Axisur on 27/10/2007 20:00:27 Ok, 1 last comment (IÆll check this post later, but need to run for now) Fester, I guess itÆs a bit of a cheap shot, but you see my point? Value based NOT based on acquisition cost itÆs based on what people are willing to pay - ôsupply and demandö. But getting rid of something for less than the market is willing to pay for it makes no sense to me unless itÆs absolutely critical that you liquidate your assets in a short amount of time. You are under the assumption that lowering your price generates sales. It doesnÆt though, except in the odd occasion when someone buys up your inventory. You can make more simply by adjusting your sales amount once a day or so. (the more you adjust the better). Get the remote management skill and itÆs easy. But I really have to go nowà GF is getting irritated, wants to go outà
Inspiration	Posted - 2007.10.27 20:01:00 - [105] Originally by: Gamer4liff Oh boo hoo you have to modify the sales price a few times a day, god forbid people have to keep an eye on their sales figures. And the reason for any drop in price, especially at .01 isk is to maintain the lowest price in the region. This is especially important for big-ticket items like ships, as people are more likely to go with the lowest, even if it is a few more jumps away. EDIT: beaten by Ivy Axisur So, if everyone does the 0.01 thing, you still expect to modify your orders only a few times a day? You are only fooling yourself here!
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.27 20:02:00 - [106] Edited by: d026 on 27/10/2007 20:02:45 edit
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.10.27 20:06:00 - [107] Edited by: Le Skunk on 27/10/2007 20:06:35 Ill undercut my items for sale by a fair margin as a) I nicked it all anyway b) I really haven't got the patience to fart about with EVE client on all day because some guys dropping the price by.1 isk every time I go to the toilet. It sells quick, it dosent hog sell orders, I can buy stuff i need when i want it. Probably annoying to the market peeps, but hey your quite welcome to buy my stuff and put it back up to the price you want it. SKUNK
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.27 20:07:00 - [108] Originally by: Ivy Axisur Edited by: Ivy Axisur on 27/10/2007 20:00:27 Ok, 1 last comment (IÆll check this post later, but need to run for now) Fester, I guess itÆs a bit of a cheap shot, but you see my point? Value based NOT based on acquisition cost itÆs based on what people are willing to pay - ôsupply and demandö. But getting rid of something for less than the market is willing to pay for it makes no sense to me unless itÆs absolutely critical that you liquidate your assets in a short amount of time. You are under the assumption that lowering your price generates sales. It doesnÆt though, except in the odd occasion when someone buys up your inventory. You can make more simply by adjusting your sales amount once a day or so. (the more you adjust the better). Get the remote management skill and itÆs easy. But I really have to go nowà GF is getting irritated, wants to go outà well thats not entirely true. price highly affects demand. if i put up 10000 x-type shield boosters for 100 isk you can be sure they gonna sell asap:)
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.10.27 20:15:00 - [109] Originally by: Inspiration Originally by: Gamer4liff Oh boo hoo you have to modify the sales price a few times a day, god forbid people have to keep an eye on their sales figures. And the reason for any drop in price, especially at .01 isk is to maintain the lowest price in the region. This is especially important for big-ticket items like ships, as people are more likely to go with the lowest, even if it is a few more jumps away. EDIT: beaten by Ivy Axisur So, if everyone does the 0.01 thing, you still expect to modify your orders only a few times a day? You are only fooling yourself here! You misunderstand, I deal only in T2, and reasonably specialty T2 at that. If every one of the sellers in the regions' market I sell in updated their price once every day, it'd still only take a few checks a day to maintain the lowest price. .01 undercutting is a war of attrition, people dropping out when they can't take the constant repetition of undercutting. Major price drops are nukes, everybody loses.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.27 20:16:00 - [110] Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 27/10/2007 20:18:45 Originally by: Ivy Axisur Edited by: Ivy Axisur on 27/10/2007 19:26:28 Originally by: Reem Fairchild People who drop by 0.01 ISK are annoying. Especially when it is on items that cost millions. What's the big difference between 0.01, 1, 100, or even 10,000 ISK when you are selling say 20 Items that cost 10 mil each? This comment has been posted several times. ItÆs not about 1 ISK, itÆs about being the lowest price at a major hub system. No one buys the second lowest price. So itÆs about being #1, not 1 ISK. If 100 people lower the price by 1000 ISK per day, thatÆs a loss of 100,000 per item, times, lets say 100 items = 10 mill loss. But itÆs worse than that, some jump the price down a lot, then the 1 ISK game starts running. So you never really get away from it, itÆs just a matter of what the starting point is. Ok, assuming we have a fairly active market with good volume and lots of demand, then it's not going to matter by how much we undercut at a time to get the lowest price each time we log in to check the market. Orders go fast, and even when someone drops the price significantly, his stuff is going to sell and we are back to the more reasonably priced items quickly. In that case what you are talking about doesn't apply unless there really is far more supply then demand. And in that case, the price needs to drop for things to sell. The other possiblity would be that we have a pretty slow market with a small sales volume, where things take a while to get off the market. In that case what you said applies, but it can also be counterproductive. What if the price really is too high, and it needs to drop for more customers to think about buying? The 0.01 ISK strategy will keep it high forever with people logging on several times a day, day in and day out, dropping the price to 0.01 below the lowest sell order just to occasionally sell 1 item. I drop prices to the next even 10,000 ISK on most things that I sell (which are usually rigs that sell in the 7-50 mil range) below the lowest sell order. I'll put in an order at say 10,500,000. Someone comes in and drops the price to 10,499,999.99 or something (usually people do more than 0.01 ISK when it somes to stuff like that though). So, I log on a few hours later, notice the change and go to 10,490,000. This way it's more convenient for me each time I change the price, and it means the price will continously drop if there are too many buyers and not enough sellers. And it should. I make my profits on volume (with small profit margins) anyway, and I need my ISK back to buy materials to build new rigs and then sell again.
Inspiration	Posted - 2007.10.27 20:19:00 - [111] Edited by: Inspiration on 27/10/2007 20:23:52 Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Inspiration Originally by: Gamer4liff Oh boo hoo you have to modify the sales price a few times a day, god forbid people have to keep an eye on their sales figures. And the reason for any drop in price, especially at .01 isk is to maintain the lowest price in the region. This is especially important for big-ticket items like ships, as people are more likely to go with the lowest, even if it is a few more jumps away. EDIT: beaten by Ivy Axisur So, if everyone does the 0.01 thing, you still expect to modify your orders only a few times a day? You are only fooling yourself here! You misunderstand, I deal only in T2, and reasonably specialty T2 at that. If every one of the sellers in the regions' market I sell in updated their price once every day, it'd still only take a few checks a day to maintain the lowest price. .01 undercutting is a war of attrition, people dropping out when they can't take the constant repetition of undercutting. Major price drops are nukes, everybody loses. Your undercutting by 0.01 is just as much a contribution to every seller loosing as the other guy that drops the price nuke. In fact you invite them too as it is his only he will ever get on top (there can be only 1). It is called evolution, and you are thus being evolved out of the market once others start nuking. The one person winning in this case is the one dropping the price nuke as he would not have sold any stuff otherwise as you got more time on your hand doing the micromanaging. The idea of removing competition by taking turns selling simply won't happen. There is always that one outsider that will drop the nuke, so the strategy is based on assumptions, unrealistic ones at that!
Sorlac	Posted - 2007.10.27 20:23:00 - [112] I think what some of you (Ivy, D026, ect)is not considering is that some people don't care about maximizing their profits, but only care about maximizing their turnover. Like me if I have a few items that I want to sell and I don't like the buy prices that are listed I'll list it for sale at a lot lower prices than what others are offering just to move it fast. I'm not going to sit around and play that .01 isk game becuase quite frankly I have much better things to do with my time. If you want to buy me out and resell at a higher price go for it, if you feel the need to undercut me fine; I really don't care as long as mine sells quick. I think I can safely say that most of us that do such massive undercuts really don't care if it hurts your profit margin any, becuase its really not our problem; as long as we are getting our money fast. I do understand your point that I can make a lot more if I played your game, but for the most part I really don't need a lot of isk to keep having fun right now so making massive profits are not a concern for me. You may think its stupid or lazy, but its just me playing the game in a way that mazimizes my enjoyment of it.
Fester Addams Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.27 20:27:00 - [113] I know you are gone now but if you check in later you might see this. Originally by: Ivy Axisur Edited by: Ivy Axisur on 27/10/2007 20:00:27 Fester, I guess itÆs a bit of a cheap shot, but you see my point? Not really, you used a false example that would support your point of view, problem is its false and holds no bearing on the discussion. Quote: You are under the assumption that lowering your price generates sales. It doesnÆt though, except in the odd occasion when someone buys up your inventory. You can make more simply by adjusting your sales amount once a day or so. (the more you adjust the better). Get the remote management skill and itÆs easy. Im afraid you have missunderstood my point on this matter, I could care less if my price changes generate more sales or not, that is really not an issue, the issue is who gets to make the available sales. All I have to do is steal your sales and I will make my profit. So what if there are only 15 ships sold per day, if I can manage to be the one to sell those 15 ships then I will make my iskies. If I play the 0.01 isk game I can only hope to get sales based on how often I check the market. By making large changes and possibly driving people away I can in some cases corner the market, true per unit my profit may not be as good as it could be but then nither is your profit. The only difference between us is that I jump large sums while you do it one minute step after the other we are both after all selling for less than the item could go for. d026 said why sell for 2.98 when you can sell for 2.99 well I can just as well ask why sell for 2.99 when you can sell for 5.50. The obvious answer is that if one person is selling for 5.50 and one for 2.99 then everyone will buy from the person selling for 2.99. I choose to underbid by a large sum to send a signal to others that I am willing to drop low, if you cant stomach it then leave now, sometimes thats a bluff but well... In the end, I play the market my way and am happy doing that, you and the others obviously prefer it in another way, I say fine, you are anoying but I cant really hold that against you :) It would be interesting to see where you are market wise in a few months when you start setting upp more and more orders that you wish to monitor. As for remote management skill, got it but it wont help me if Im in a different region and I travel alot.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.10.27 20:30:00 - [114] Originally by: Inspiration Edited by: Inspiration on 27/10/2007 20:21:21 Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Inspiration Originally by: Gamer4liff Oh boo hoo you have to modify the sales price a few times a day, god forbid people have to keep an eye on their sales figures. And the reason for any drop in price, especially at .01 isk is to maintain the lowest price in the region. This is especially important for big-ticket items like ships, as people are more likely to go with the lowest, even if it is a few more jumps away. EDIT: beaten by Ivy Axisur So, if everyone does the 0.01 thing, you still expect to modify your orders only a few times a day? You are only fooling yourself here! You misunderstand, I deal only in T2, and reasonably specialty T2 at that. If every one of the sellers in the regions' market I sell in updated their price once every day, it'd still only take a few checks a day to maintain the lowest price. .01 undercutting is a war of attrition, people dropping out when they can't take the constant repetition of undercutting. Major price drops are nukes, everybody loses. You undercutting by 0.01 is just as much a contribution to every seller loosing as the others are when they drop the price nuke. In fact you invite them too as its the only way they will ever get on top. Its called evolution, and you are thus being evolved out of the market once others start nuking. The one person winning in this case, is the one dropping the price nuke as he would not have sold any stuff otherwise. The idea of removing competition by taking turns selling, simply wont happen. There is always that one outsider that will drop the nuke, so the strategy is based on assumptions, and unrealistic ones at that! Ha ha taking turns, are you mad? the idea is to continually be on the top, forget everybody else. What are you even talking about? Evolution? we're talking about market dynamics here, I don't even understand what half of your post is trying to say, that undercutting by large is a better tactic? That people who undercut by .01 are less evolved? .01 isk is the pinnicle of evolution, a pure form of competition where the price remains high, and activity is rewarded. Undercutting by a large amount in the T2 market will simply get the goods bought up and resold. What you are talking about might work in the T1 market, but the T2 market is a completely different beast entirely.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.27 20:30:00 - [115] Edited by: d026 on 27/10/2007 20:35:37 Edited by: d026 on 27/10/2007 20:33:33 Originally by: Fester Addams I know you are gone now but if you check in later you might see this. Originally by: Ivy Axisur Edited by: Ivy Axisur on 27/10/2007 20:00:27 Fester, I guess itÆs a bit of a cheap shot, but you see my point? Not really, you used a false example that would support your point of view, problem is its false and holds no bearing on the discussion. Quote: You are under the assumption that lowering your price generates sales. It doesnÆt though, except in the odd occasion when someone buys up your inventory. You can make more simply by adjusting your sales amount once a day or so. (the more you adjust the better). Get the remote management skill and itÆs easy. Im afraid you have missunderstood my point on this matter, I could care less if my price changes generate more sales or not, that is really not an issue, the issue is who gets to make the available sales. All I have to do is steal your sales and I will make my profit. So what if there are only 15 ships sold per day, if I can manage to be the one to sell those 15 ships then I will make my iskies. If I play the 0.01 isk game I can only hope to get sales based on how often I check the market. By making large changes and possibly driving people away I can in some cases corner the market, true per unit my profit may not be as good as it could be but then nither is your profit. The only difference between us is that I jump large sums while you do it one minute step after the other we are both after all selling for less than the item could go for. d026 said why sell for 2.98 when you can sell for 2.99 well I can just as well ask why sell for 2.99 when you can sell for 5.50. The obvious answer is that if one person is selling for 5.50 and one for 2.99 then everyone will buy from the person selling for 2.99. I choose to underbid by a large sum to send a signal to others that I am willing to drop low, if you cant stomach it then leave now, sometimes thats a bluff but well... In the end, I play the market my way and am happy doing that, you and the others obviously prefer it in another way, I say fine, you are anoying but I cant really hold that against you :) It would be interesting to see where you are market wise in a few months when you start setting upp more and more orders that you wish to monitor. As for remote management skill, got it but it wont help me if Im in a different region and I travel alot. but you are aware that what you are doing is just a gamble and has not rly anythign to do with market ing? if yo usell to cheap i would just buy your stuff and relist it asap.. your tactic only works if you have more supply than i can take..
Fester Addams Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.27 20:48:00 - [116] Originally by: d026 but you are aware that what you are doing is just a gamble? Yes and no. I gamble that my bailout point is lower than the one you have, if I am mistaken then I sell no items but I deny you the higher profit. You see I have resources generating me isk apart from my sales, I do trading mainly as a way to help my corp, my corp sets my minimum price range and to Gamer4liff, I do trade almost exclusivelly in T2 items and I make a decent profit per day... I havent come close to the top sellers but then I dont have as many players in my sales areas as them (I know excuses excuses :) My goal like I have said all along is to get you to leave, I do not want coexistence, I want to be the baron of whatever item I am selling. I may be a nice guy if you run into me in the game or in RL but when I play the market I am ruthless. If I cant get the sales then I will minimise your profit. Dont get me wrong, its not some grief play like some of the posters here have claimed to be their motivation, I would love for you to sell and sell very well as long as its not where I am selling or interfering with my sales. If I find myself alone able to sell at a price I will increace untill I get competitors, drop back down a bit and settle in for the long haul. Thus the main reason the 0.01 isk method does not fit me is that it gives you a good chance to make a decent profit, this meens you will stay and this is in my opinion bad :)
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.27 20:48:00 - [117] Originally by: Gamer4liff Undercutting by a large amount in the T2 market will simply get the goods bought up and resold. If you get your money and you have a profit (even if it's lower than you could have had by being more patient), does it matter whether the person who bought your stuff is going to use it or put it back on the market for more?
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.10.27 20:48:00 - [118] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 27/10/2007 20:55:43 Originally by: Inspiration Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Inspiration Edited by: Inspiration on 27/10/2007 20:21:21 Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Inspiration Originally by: Gamer4liff Oh boo hoo you have to modify the sales price a few times a day, god forbid people have to keep an eye on their sales figures. And the reason for any drop in price, especially at .01 isk is to maintain the lowest price in the region. This is especially important for big-ticket items like ships, as people are more likely to go with the lowest, even if it is a few more jumps away. EDIT: beaten by Ivy Axisur So, if everyone does the 0.01 thing, you still expect to modify your orders only a few times a day? You are only fooling yourself here! You misunderstand, I deal only in T2, and reasonably specialty T2 at that. If every one of the sellers in the regions' market I sell in updated their price once every day, it'd still only take a few checks a day to maintain the lowest price. .01 undercutting is a war of attrition, people dropping out when they can't take the constant repetition of undercutting. Major price drops are nukes, everybody loses. You undercutting by 0.01 is just as much a contribution to every seller loosing as the others are when they drop the price nuke. In fact you invite them too as its the only way they will ever get on top. Its called evolution, and you are thus being evolved out of the market once others start nuking. The one person winning in this case, is the one dropping the price nuke as he would not have sold any stuff otherwise. The idea of removing competition by taking turns selling, simply wont happen. There is always that one outsider that will drop the nuke, so the strategy is based on assumptions, and unrealistic ones at that! Ha ha taking turns, are you mad? the idea is to continually be on the top, forget everybody else. What are you even talking about? Evolution? we're talking about market dynamics here, I don't even understand what half of your post is trying to say, that undercutting by large is a better tactic? That people who undercut by .01 are less evolved? .01 isk is the pinnicle of evolution, a pure form of competition where the price remains high, and activity is rewarded. Undercutting by a large amount in the T2 market will simply get the goods bought up and resold. What you are talking about might work in the T1 market, but the T2 market is a completely different beast entirely. Facts: Lowering by 0.01 will implicitly means taking turns when others do the same Lowering by 0.01 will implicitly involve loads of micro management Lowering by 0.01 only guarantees you are wasting a lot of time as optimum price to move the most goods is never reached. Lowering by 0.01 signals your competitors you are tight, so they hit you where your weak.....your wallet! Market dynamics is a modern word for market evolution, the concept behind it is identical but the concept itself has much broader implications! You are optimizing a small part of a big whole to the extreme, and in doing so are less efficient at achieving your goal. That be getting the most ISK with the least amount of effort! You are actually optimizing for getting the most ISK for your efforts regardless of how much time it takes! That is not exactly the most evolved strategy, now is it :) Odds are that you understand this post even less then the one before, but quite frankly I have given up hope on you ever understanding. HaHa you are so full of it, take your arrogant response and shove it where the sun don't shine. Changing the price by .01 isk is merely a tool, there are many different tools to use when selling on the market. Undercutting by .01 isk doesn't signal anything. And much like Keynes said about investment, the eve market is dominated by animal spirits, half the time people aren't even thinking when they are setting prices and buying from the market. Humans arn't rational.Especially eve players
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.10.27 20:49:00 - [119] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 27/10/2007 20:52:01 Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Gamer4liff Undercutting by a large amount in the T2 market will simply get the goods bought up and resold. If you get your money and you have a profit (even if it's lower than you could have had by being more patient), does it matter whether the person who bought your stuff is going to use it or put it back on the market for more? Yes, because in that case you are a sucker for having sold for less than you could have.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.27 20:52:00 - [120] Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Gamer4liff Undercutting by a large amount in the T2 market will simply get the goods bought up and resold. If you get your money and you have a profit (even if it's lower than you could have had by being more patient), does it matter whether the person who bought your stuff is going to use it or put it back on the market for more? Yes, because in that case you are a sucker for having sold less than you could have. But I sold faster, and that can mean I will make more money per day on average than you in the end.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.10.27 20:54:00 - [121] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Gamer4liff Undercutting by a large amount in the T2 market will simply get the goods bought up and resold. If you get your money and you have a profit (even if it's lower than you could have had by being more patient), does it matter whether the person who bought your stuff is going to use it or put it back on the market for more? Yes, because in that case you are a sucker for having sold less than you could have. But I sold faster, and that can mean I will make more money per day on average than you in the end. Averages are nothing, if I sell the same amount at higher prices at slower speeds, i'm still making more isk at the end of the day.
Inspiration	Posted - 2007.10.27 21:00:00 - [122] Edited by: Inspiration on 27/10/2007 21:03:28 Originally by: Gamer4liff HaHa you are so full of it, take your arrogant response and shove it where the sun don't shine. Changing the price by .01 isk is merely a tool, there are many different tools to use when selling on the market. Undercutting by .01 isk doesn't signal anything. That is what happens when you ignore every point I make and apply childishly simple logic to a more complex problem. Claiming you do not understand what I wrote, then deliberately twist it all around in nuts combinations to underline that it is my writing that is the underlying cause is not helping you either. Fact is that the arrogant person.....is you! Besides the bad manners on top of it. Keep doing that 0.01 thing if it makes you happy, at the end of the day, it won't affect me in any way.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.10.27 21:04:00 - [123] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 27/10/2007 21:05:06 Originally by: Inspiration Fact is that the arrogant person.....is you! Bad mannered too! Oh man guys I just got burned on the internet by a guy hiding behind a female alt. I should just go and hang up my manufacturer's badge right now. Regardless, my point still stands. Undercutting by .01 is the market standard if you want your goods to sell at the highest price, undercutting by a lot is for when you want people to buy more of the good you are selling. But for general purpose in moderately specialty markets, especially the T2 market where there are few competitors, .01 isk undercutting is the preferred method.
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2007.10.27 21:04:00 - [124] Time to nuke this thread: Hello "i clicked the mousebutton myself so its free!!!111cos(0)-e^(i*pi)" crowd. Sure, if set the cost of your labor to 0 (or happen to have a market bot), most of it makes sense. Other people value the worth of their mouseclicks differently. Example: 30m/h running L4 missions semi-afk ->8333 ISK per second (Optional: +100k / s braindamage for interacting with that pathetic market interface.)
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.27 21:06:00 - [125] Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Gamer4liff Undercutting by a large amount in the T2 market will simply get the goods bought up and resold. If you get your money and you have a profit (even if it's lower than you could have had by being more patient), does it matter whether the person who bought your stuff is going to use it or put it back on the market for more? Yes, because in that case you are a sucker for having sold less than you could have. But I sold faster, and that can mean I will make more money per day on average than you in the end. Averages are nothing, if I sell the same amount at higher prices at slower speeds, i'm still making more isk at the end of the day. No, If I sell a lot more things than you but at lower profit per item, I can still make a lot more than you. Granted, the way I do things doesn't work everywhere and in all markets. But with the way I do things, profit depends totally on volume. I work in Jita, building a wide selection of the most fast selling rigs. Rigs are fast to build and they sell for quite a bit per unit. It guranteees a high volume. So even if my profit margins are small, I will still pull in lots of money as long as I can sell my stuff quickly.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.27 21:10:00 - [126] Edited by: d026 on 27/10/2007 21:10:23 Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Gamer4liff Undercutting by a large amount in the T2 market will simply get the goods bought up and resold. If you get your money and you have a profit (even if it's lower than you could have had by being more patient), does it matter whether the person who bought your stuff is going to use it or put it back on the market for more? Yes, because in that case you are a sucker for having sold less than you could have. But I sold faster, and that can mean I will make more money per day on average than you in the end. Averages are nothing, if I sell the same amount at higher prices at slower speeds, i'm still making more isk at the end of the day. No, If I sell a lot more things than you but at lower profit per item, I can still make a lot more than you. Granted, the way I do things doesn't work everywhere and in all markets. But with the way I do things, profit depends totally on volume. I work in Jita, building a wide selection of the most fast selling rigs. Rigs are fast to build and they sell for quite a bit per unit. It guranteees a high volume. So even if my profit margins are small, I will still pull in lots of money as long as I can sell my stuff quickly. but you admitted that you undercut competitors several times a day.. you also could undercut them by 0.1 and keep market price lil more stable and eran more at the same time.. even in your case undercutting more than 0.01 isk does not make any sense.. especially because those 1000 isk do not generate significant more demand..
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.10.27 21:11:00 - [127] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Gamer4liff Undercutting by a large amount in the T2 market will simply get the goods bought up and resold. If you get your money and you have a profit (even if it's lower than you could have had by being more patient), does it matter whether the person who bought your stuff is going to use it or put it back on the market for more? Yes, because in that case you are a sucker for having sold less than you could have. But I sold faster, and that can mean I will make more money per day on average than you in the end. Averages are nothing, if I sell the same amount at higher prices at slower speeds, i'm still making more isk at the end of the day. No, If I sell a lot more things than you but at lower profit per item, I can still make a lot more than you. Granted, the way I do things doesn't work everywhere and in all markets. But with the way I do things, profit depends totally on volume. I work in Jita, building a wide selection of the most fast selling rigs. Rigs are fast to build and they sell for quite a bit per unit. It guranteees a high volume. So even if my profit margins are small, I will still pull in lots of money as long as I can sell my stuff quickly. If we have the same output and both of us sell out I'll still be ahead, with .01 undercutting you're still the lowest price on the market, and people will buy from you very quickly if you placed the goods in an opportune location. It's very possible to move a vast amount without dropping the price bomb.
Dav Varan	Posted - 2007.10.27 21:16:00 - [128] lmao Theres nothing worse than getting trapped in the 0.01 game whether buying or selling. Only people who do it are those who are to scared to come out and fight, gives you something to do while your camped in station. Seriousley you undercut me by 0.01 I undercut you by 5M then you know your not playing the 0.01 game with me. I mean wtf , why do it in eve , go get yourself a stock market account and do it for real and make real money. Eve is for killin ****, not staying in station going "ooo bastard undercut me, I gonna feck him up and go to 10345.01 , haha that'll teach em" stop wasting your precious precious eve time tinkering with your .01's and get out and kill stuff , YAAARRRRR !!! Or to put it more sensible Maybe people have better things to do than modifying market orders all day long. Which you have to do if you wanna play 0.01 because of all the frecking market macro'r out there. Time for a proper tax on modifing orders I say.
Fester Addams Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.27 21:18:00 - [129] Originally by: Gamer4liff Regardless, my point still stands. Undercutting by .01 is the market standard if you want your goods to sell at the highest price, undercutting by a lot is for when you want people to buy more of the good you are selling. Its hard to argue with that as you have decided that we are talking of how to maximise profit per unit. I am not after selling at the highest price, I want to sell in a way that tries to maximise isk gain while minimising time spent, if I dont sell many units every day then my hangar will fill upp with T2 items and my exotic dancers, security guards and wine will have to move to a different station. I need to move my stock and people are stealing my sales :) Noone is claiming that by undercutting by a great deal you will sell at the highest price, what me and a few others are saying is that by undercutting by a great deal we can drive some players away from the local market and thus increase our sales buy taking over their sales. Per unit we sell for less but since the turnover is higher and as long as production is in step we will make more isk per day than if we used the 0.01 isk method and since production is in step you will never catch upp even if you make more isk per sale. Counting isk based on effort its even better as we dont have to check the market as often as people who try to make isk based on high return per unit. Both are valid methods, both are annoying to the oposite side and both work very well for both T1 and T2.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.27 21:19:00 - [130] Originally by: Dav Varan lmao Seriousley you undercut me by 0.01 I undercut you by 5M then you know your not playing the 0.01 game with me. thats why i have more isk than you:)
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.10.27 21:25:00 - [131] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 27/10/2007 21:26:46 Edited by: Gamer4liff on 27/10/2007 21:25:40 Originally by: Fester Addams Originally by: Gamer4liff Regardless, my point still stands. Undercutting by .01 is the market standard if you want your goods to sell at the highest price, undercutting by a lot is for when you want people to buy more of the good you are selling. Its hard to argue with that as you have decided that we are talking of how to maximise profit per unit. I am not after selling at the highest price, I want to sell in a way that tries to maximise isk gain while minimising time spent, if I dont sell many units every day then my hangar will fill upp with T2 items and my exotic dancers, security guards and wine will have to move to a different station. I need to move my stock and people are stealing my sales :) Noone is claiming that by undercutting by a great deal you will sell at the highest price, what me and a few others are saying is that by undercutting by a great deal we can drive some players away from the local market and thus increase our sales buy taking over their sales. Per unit we sell for less but since the turnover is higher and as long as production is in step we will make more isk per day than if we used the 0.01 isk method and since production is in step you will never catch upp even if you make more isk per sale. Counting isk based on effort its even better as we dont have to check the market as often as people who try to make isk based on high return per unit. Both are valid methods, both are annoying to the oposite side and both work very well for both T1 and T2. Look, you're probably right on the scale of the T1 market, but from my experience with the T2 market, at least in semi-quiet regions like amarr space the .01 isk method is sound. You are right though, generally, people will react to a drop in price by buying more. But for my uses the .01 isk method works better, as 2/4 T2 items are I make are ships, with ships you're not really going to sell any more of them by lowering the price dramatically. and the other two T2 items are so cheap (for T2 anyway) that there's not much use dropping the price radically as there's not much place it can go, and people seem to be just as happy buying it in a stream, rather than clumps. But you are probably quite correct in the T1 arena. Although for my T2 uses where I really have to produce at a fixed rate where things generally sell as fast as I make them, I prefer my method.
Fester Addams Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.27 21:27:00 - [132] Originally by: d026 Originally by: Dav Varan lmao Seriousley you undercut me by 0.01 I undercut you by 5M then you know your not playing the 0.01 game with me. thats why i have more isk than you:) Thats an interesting thing to claim. In any case you did not make those iskies by undercutting 0.01 isk :)
Inspiration	Posted - 2007.10.27 21:32:00 - [133] Originally by: Ivy Axisur Originally by: Fester Addams Originally by: Ivy Axisur Edited by: Ivy Axisur on 27/10/2007 15:38:15 Listen, I respect anyone who can flat-out beat me by having more ISK (trade power) or manufacturing capability. But 99% of the time they just drive market prices down. Recently I saw a major price spike in Mechanical Engineering datacores in all markets. Whoever pulled that one off was brilliant. Within 1 month they when from 1.4mill to 2.6 mil then down to 1.7 mill. I think it was the work of an individual. Ehh, did the prices drop? Broaden your scope, I already explained that game changes influence the demand side of things. Even announced changes that do not yet made it into the game will do so! Mechanical Engineering datacores are especially sensitive to this as they are used to get T2 ships by means of invention. Is CCP announces new T2 ships, where no T2 BPO exists for that implies that big manufacturers (trust me, we aren't them, none of us in this thread problably is) will stock up on those datacores and relevant T1 ships. There are other ways a price is influenced as well. If some other datacore kind is suddenly less needed or that particular market for it is saturated, people will change research agents or at least go for other datacores. Which changes the supply side of things, lowering prices in the end. There are countless more subtle forces at work. Releasing a video showing off what a particular ship or setup can so, will drastically change the market if its cool. We seen it with passive tanking and with nano setups (things can quickly catch on). Since every resource (time, slots, agents, kind of activity) can be used only once and people will have to make choices, it will by definition affect the market one way or the other. Seemingly unrelated events can thus affect price of a particular item, and cause a stir until a new equilibrium is reached. But by then the next even that affects the market takes place, and the story goes on :) There are people that speculate on coming changes and take investment risks in order to make a quick buck. These are the temporal spikes you see in the market data, and they lessen with time as real events unfold. Thus just seeing a spike and then concluding that it is market manipulation is kind of jumping to conclusions and most likely the wrong one at that. The market in hub systems at least is insanely huge.
Fester Addams Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.27 21:38:00 - [134] Originally by: Gamer4liff Look, you're probably right on the scale of the T1 market, but from my experience with the T2 market, at least in semi-quiet regions like amarr space the .01 isk method is sound. You are right though, generally, people will react to a drop in price by buying more. But for my uses the .01 isk method works better, as 2/4 T2 items are I make are ships, with ships you're not really going to sell any more of them by lowering the price dramatically. and the other two T2 items are so cheap (for T2 anyway) that there's not much use dropping the price radically as there's not much place it can go, and people seem to be just as happy buying it in a stream, rather than clumps. But you are probably quite correct in the T1 arena. Although for my T2 uses where I really have to produce at a fixed rate where things generally sell as fast as I make them, I prefer my method. If you are selling mostly T2 ships from invention then I understand where you are comming from. Small T2 ships are not really worth inventing, the mechanical engineering datacore cost alone is above what some T2 friggs go for. Im not too well versed in the interdictors but cruiser production is too slow to be able to keep upp with demands and thus prices will be more inflexible, fairly often I find that noone else is selling. Command ships are even rarer. The T2 frigg market and most of the T2 module market however is a different matter fast and relativelly cheap invention meens the market can be flooded of thise items.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.10.27 21:42:00 - [135] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 27/10/2007 21:42:27 Originally by: Fester Addams Originally by: Gamer4liff Look, you're probably right on the scale of the T1 market, but from my experience with the T2 market, at least in semi-quiet regions like amarr space the .01 isk method is sound. You are right though, generally, people will react to a drop in price by buying more. But for my uses the .01 isk method works better, as 2/4 T2 items are I make are ships, with ships you're not really going to sell any more of them by lowering the price dramatically. and the other two T2 items are so cheap (for T2 anyway) that there's not much use dropping the price radically as there's not much place it can go, and people seem to be just as happy buying it in a stream, rather than clumps. But you are probably quite correct in the T1 arena. Although for my T2 uses where I really have to produce at a fixed rate where things generally sell as fast as I make them, I prefer my method. If you are selling mostly T2 ships from invention then I understand where you are comming from. Small T2 ships are not really worth inventing, the mechanical engineering datacore cost alone is above what some T2 friggs go for. Im not too well versed in the interdictors but cruiser production is too slow to be able to keep upp with demands and thus prices will be more inflexible, fairly often I find that noone else is selling. Command ships are even rarer. The T2 frigg market and most of the T2 module market however is a different matter fast and relativelly cheap invention meens the market can be flooded of thise items. Well I'm not selling them from invention, I'm selling them from blueprints, but yeah.
Secretary Bargain consumables	Posted - 2007.10.27 21:49:00 - [136] The purpose of a market isn't to make manufacturers wealthier, it's to provide more to consumers. You don't have branding, your product is exactly the same as everyone elses so your only unique selling point is price. If you want to make more money then don't trade in hubs. Price fixing, which is what the OP suggests, doesn't work for anyone other than the person who betrays the fix so calling for sanity and cooperation is kinda dumb neh? As a consumer i don't mind how you compete as long as you do. More vigorous competition = lower prices for me. More producers of t2 cap rechargers trying to cut each other's throats did me the world of good. Keep slashing those prices, stack it high and sell it cheap. --------------------------- The signature. Here i can type my Bio.
Fester Addams Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.27 21:50:00 - [137] Originally by: Gamer4liff Well I'm not selling them from invention, I'm selling them from blueprints, but yeah. Ahh another that sells from T2 BPO's :) Hmm, nasty, you have one of the mining crystals we lack, Im going to have to look into some numbers and may make you a trading offer for it in exchange for another T2 mining crystal BPO...
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.27 21:54:00 - [138] Originally by: d026 but you admitted that you undercut competitors several times a day.. you also could undercut them by 0.1 and keep market price lil more stable and eran more at the same time.. even in your case undercutting more than 0.01 isk does not make any sense.. especially because those 1000 isk do not generate significant more demand.. It's actually 2-3, maybe 4 times per day sometimes. But in the evening I may sit for a while and monitor the market, semi-afk, if I'm not busy with pvp ops on my main character or busy with RL things. With the stuff I normally sell though, it usually doesn't matter, because sales volume is so high. Whether I drop the price by 0.01 or my usual going to the next even 10,000 below the lowest order, is not going to matter too much for the prices on those particular markets except possibly in annoying a few other sellers once or twice a day. But let's say one particular rig (that normally sells well) is selling slowly on a certain day and I have a reasonably large sell order on the market. Then I will sit down and purposefully drive down the price to make them move, so I get all my money back for the next batch of rigs.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.10.27 21:55:00 - [139] Originally by: Fester Addams Originally by: Gamer4liff Well I'm not selling them from invention, I'm selling them from blueprints, but yeah. Ahh another that sells from T2 BPO's :) Hmm, nasty, you have one of the mining crystals we lack, Im going to have to look into some numbers and may make you a trading offer for it in exchange for another T2 mining crystal BPO... Thanks for the offer but I mostly just make them for friends, and I can't imagine a better mining crystal for selling in Amarr space.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.27 22:01:00 - [140] Originally by: Gamer4liff If we have the same output and both of us sell out I'll still be ahead, with .01 undercutting you're still the lowest price on the market, and people will buy from you very quickly if you placed the goods in an opportune location. It's very possible to move a vast amount without dropping the price bomb. Depends on the product and the situation. If my total possible production volume is very limited, then of course I will try to get the most out of each unit I sell. But personally, I'd probably just move to a different product in that case.
Hazel Starr	Posted - 2007.10.27 22:07:00 - [141] Edited by: Hazel Starr on 27/10/2007 22:08:12 Markets have physical structure in terms of distances as well as price structure. In my area of manufacture (t1 rigs) I am quite happy to introduce product at 10% more than competition 10 jumps away because I know I will sell in a reasonable time at a far better profit margin. If I have local competition then if they have huge volumes of pieces I will undercut them by a couple of percent to get the rapid sale, while if they have few I will price equal to them. -- Haze
Sicil Fioet Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.28 00:00:00 - [142] One reason to do this is to sell fast if you're tired of bumping your own order and not much remains of it. You may have sold most of it doing the 0.01 ISK thing and now have a small batch remaining that you just want to get rid of fast and open up an order on your character. In this case you really lower the price and hope that other resellers won't undercut you seeing that you have a small batch going anyhow. Then your small batch sells faster without you babysitting it, because no one else rushes to undercut you, and you don't care that it is very underpriced because majority of stuff you sold for much higher. Second reason for doing this is someone just needing ISK quick and they are trying to turn their stuff into liquid ISK as soon as possible and don't really care if they lose out. Another reason I can think about in favor of doing this is ruining the market intentionally. Yeah so you're not going to make as much profit yourself, but neither will the other players. If you do this long enough some of them will leave for greener pastures. So while it may seem to the other sellers like dumb thing to do, consider that there reasons that are logically sound for someone to do this. But yeah a few sellers don't realize that if they lower their prices by 10% the demand isn't going to spike. And what's more, other sellers might rush to undercut them and then they just screwed themselves out of due profit and everyone else ...

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