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Why is it so hard to boost amarr? And some ideas.

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Agetec Core	Posted - 2007.10.28 01:00:00 - [1] No posts about "ZOMG APOC SUX GIVE IT BOOST" or any other stuff like it. My question is, whats taking so long? Maybe its a lack of ideas? Trying to find a way to boost amarr w/o completely unbalancing the game? Or maybe a lack of understanding of just what "style" the amarr race should go in. Khanid (or however u spell it) had to be proposed by a player for the changes to happen so I'm starting to think that CCP isnt giving amarr that OOMPH becasue they dont know how to do so without destroying the initial amarr role (though god knows what that is...) so simply put, WTF mate? If you're running outta ideas, the forums are flooding with them though granted some can be a little crazy, at least its an idea and might as well give em a shot. In private GM only servers ofc. No need to tease amarr players anymore :) Now before this post becomes an anti-ccp whine, (though much luv to ccp) I got some ideas of my own. Change nos nerf; bring back the pilgrim/curse. Nos nerf was fine and somewhat decomissioned alot of old I-win buttons but I think that this % stuff is just too (and i use this word LOOSLEY)unrealistic. I think that having sig radius and a stacking penalty would be a much better idea. For example, say a large nos has a sig radius of 400. Your frigate is 25. Therefore, the full effect of the large nos on you will only be 25/400 or 6.25%. If the sig radius of the nos is under the sig radius of the noss-ed, then let it rip at 100% sucking power. Then add a stacking penalty so stuff like nos domnis dont end pwning again. Have this follow the sensor dampner's penalty in a very similar way. For example: With numbers off the top o my head: 1st nos drains 32 cap every 12 seconds. 2nd nos drains only 80% as much therefore it drains only 25.6. 3rd nos drains only 60% as much... blah blah blah. Ok so you get the point. Now, if multiple people are nossing one person, then take the total cap lost from the noss-ed and divide it among the nossers according to how much they're draining (eg. whats the sig of their nos and how many they got on) Now I'm in no way saying that this is simple. Its definitly many times harder to pull off than the percent based way of doing NOS but I believe that it'll work better for everyone. Not to call CCP lazy or whatnot but the current nos system seems to be brought on too hastily due to the community screaming for nos nerf. So exactly what does nos change do for amarr? It will let amarr be that "Cap race" that it was meant to be. This can be accompanied by nos bonuses like the Apoc being a bigger version (though not quite as good) of the curse in a similar fashion of how the scorpion relates to the rook. Heck, maybe even consider giving all amarr ship that common bous something like: 5% (or 2% pending on how unbalanced or balanced 5% may be) increased Nos/Neut amount per level in a very similar way on how pretty much all gallente ships have that +5% to Hybrid damage per level. To replace that boring old "10% bonus to cap usage to laz0rs" (this would require a laser change of course as you dont want ships that run out of cap before they get a few shots off) Now how might this be balanced in any way you ask? Simple! No or very little drone power. Nothing like what gallente has so you cant bring back the nos domni. If you nos, you'll suffer a drop in damage. With all those empty high slots and ships devoted to disabling cap, this is definitly going to push alot of amarr ships back into their roles without end up having amarr do crazy damage,cap pwn and uber tank.
Agetec Core	Posted - 2007.10.28 01:02:00 - [2] Edited by: Agetec Core on 28/10/2007 01:01:47 Now for something that should NOT happen. More mid slots. I read this alot about people wanting more mid slots for amarr and zomg how f***ing awesome that would be but NO. This is becasue the philosophy (at least from what i gather) of amarr design does NOT revolve around mid slots. They revolve around high slots (for that cap stuff i suppose due to empty utility slots everywhere on amarr ships) and low slots for some heavy arse armor tankin. I simply believe that Finishing atm
Agetec Core	Posted - 2007.10.28 01:02:00 - [3] Reserved
Blind Man Angel Deep Corporation	Posted - 2007.10.28 01:04:00 - [4] pilgrim/curse are fine, use a combination of nos and neuts.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.10.28 01:07:00 - [5] Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 28/10/2007 01:07:15 hehehe, the pilgrim/curse had to bend over and take it with the NOS merf... those used to be ships I didn't want to fight alone Edit a merf is kinda like a nerf, but better Originally by: Liz Kali Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking I owned someone on forums!!!
shinsushi Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.10.28 01:55:00 - [6] Originally by: Blind Man pilgrim/curse are fine, use a combination of nos and neuts. Says the man with the Boost Minmatar sig.... How long has it been since you played? You know the pilgrim is worth nothing now, and the curse is not far behind. Wanna know which ships are good/bad/overpowered? Go look at their prices in Jita. ++++++++++ AMARR - Taking it up the butt since 2005 Fixing Laser Boats 101
General StarScream THE DECEPTIC0NS	Posted - 2007.10.28 01:58:00 - [7] Amarr is allready to powerfull, they dont need no boost. Sig Removed. Dont use inappropriate language in sigs -Kaemonn
shinsushi Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.10.28 02:02:00 - [8] Originally by: General StarScream Amarr is allready to powerfull, they dont need no boost. They are powerful your right, I mean after Minmatar and gallente they are powerful.... Minmatar > Gallente>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amarr+Caldari. ++++++++++ AMARR - Taking it up the butt since 2005 Fixing Laser Boats 101
Agetec Core	Posted - 2007.10.28 02:07:00 - [9] Edited by: Agetec Core on 28/10/2007 02:08:39 Originally by: General StarScream Amarr is allready to powerfull, they dont need no boost. Proof please. And do read the OP post before posting. Not every thread about amarr is a whine for an unneccesary boost. This thread is about tweaking amarr for them to fit their roles more activly. Amarr is far from overpowered and I'm not asking for any boost like, 700% bonus to energy weapon bonus or anything. Just some tweaking cause the current amarr system needs some tweaking and polishing. Originally by: shinsushi Originally by: General StarScream Amarr is allready to powerfull, they dont need no boost. They are powerful your right, I mean after Minmatar and gallente they are powerful.... Minmatar > Gallente>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amarr+Caldari.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.10.28 02:22:00 - [10] I caved in :( Although Cygnus will remain true to Amarr I made a 2nd PVP char and yes it's Minmatar ofcourse... was there any other real option? Welcome to EVE Online: Press 1 for Caldari, PVE Online Press 2 for Minmatar, PVP Online Press 3 for Gallente, PWN Online Press 4 for Amarr, Lulz Online
General StarScream THE DECEPTIC0NS	Posted - 2007.10.28 02:22:00 - [11] Caldri Amarr min Gal thats the pvp fight list. people just whine to boost there won race, you see it in ever post about boosting. so tweaking amarr is not boosting? and what roles should they be able to have??? they have super dps, at close,mid,long range, while beeing able to change range with 1 sec, no reload, no cargo for ammo, and they really dont use all that mutch eng with the right skills and setup. Sig Removed. Dont use inappropriate language in sigs -Kaemonn
shinsushi Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.10.28 02:27:00 - [12] Originally by: General StarScream Caldri Amarr min Gal thats the pvp fight list. people just whine to boost there won race, you see it in ever post about boosting. so tweaking amarr is not boosting? and what roles should they be able to have??? they have super dps, at close,mid,long range, while beeing able to change range with 1 sec, no reload, no cargo for ammo, and they really dont use all that mutch eng with the right skills and setup. OH Rly? What Would you know about it? There ya go. Your a drone ****, you fly domis, and megathrons. Stfu and know you place. BTW: You seem to kill amarr and cladari ships well enough. ++++++++++ AMARR - Taking it up the butt since 2005* Fixing Laser Boats 101
Agetec Core	Posted - 2007.10.28 02:35:00 - [13] Originally by: General StarScream Caldri Amarr min Gal thats the pvp fight list. people just whine to boost there won race, you see it in ever post about boosting. so tweaking amarr is not boosting? and what roles should they be able to have??? they have super dps, at close,mid,long range, while beeing able to change range with 1 sec, no reload, no cargo for ammo, and they really dont use all that mutch eng with the right skills and setup. Role? They're the Cap race but do you see anything related to cap other than that 10% reduced cap usage? Casue I dont. While gallentes get that damage bonus, matar gets a speed and general damage bonus and caldari a range bonus, amarr gets this reduced cap stuff that dosent do crap since without a damage bonus, lasers are pointless. IE. Maller The maller is a great example becasue switching that cap bonus for a +2% or 5% nos/neut bonus would give it a great role in the T1 cruiser roles. As for DPS, that comes at the price of cap. Even at max skills, cap is an issue as it should be with lasers but its not in sync with the produce which is simply a mediocre dps due to many amarr ships not recieving any damage bonus which would be fine if they got another bonus that actually mattered aside from the cap one. And range? Yes it does have great range but again, that comes at a price of cap which there is no way to deny that it is huge.
General StarScream THE DECEPTIC0NS	Posted - 2007.10.28 02:49:00 - [14] lol how does that prove anything about what i said ? Amarr is the best pvp gang race in eve. get a clue man, i agree that gallante is best at close range fights 1vs1. but anything else than that and gallante lose out. and you should know is hard getting a 1vs1. so most fights are gang vs gang. there by making gallante the lest important race to skill for pvp. Amarr bs with dictors is the best setup you can have. Sig Removed. Dont use inappropriate language in sigs -Kaemonn
General StarScream THE DECEPTIC0NS	Posted - 2007.10.28 02:52:00 - [15] But you have to understand if you take away the amarr cap. bouns wich is 50% at lvl5 would you change that to 255 dam? and use 50% more cap ? now that would never work. If you Fix or Imporove amarr they will be way to powerfull,even more so than now. People just dont fly em, cuse they tink they stink. but if used right like most ships in eve, they rock. Sig Removed. Dont use inappropriate language in sigs -Kaemonn
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.10.28 03:07:00 - [16] Originally by: General StarScream lol how does that prove anything about what i said ? Amarr is the best pvp gang race in eve. get a clue man, i agree that gallante is best at close range fights 1vs1. but anything else than that and gallante lose out. and you should know is hard getting a 1vs1. so most fights are gang vs gang. there by making gallante the lest important race to skill for pvp. Amarr bs with dictors is the best setup you can have. Wow...you must know something no one else in EVE has figured out. CCP put out numbers on ships being built here. Amazing that the killer Amarr race is FAR behind every other ship in EVE (in every class).
General StarScream THE DECEPTIC0NS	Posted - 2007.10.28 03:11:00 - [17] Well those numbers happen since everyone think amarr sucks. when i sarted i read the fourm first, and picked gallante as start. i wish everyday now, i had picked amarr or one of the others. Amarr skills got it all, ship sales dont prove nothing. Sig Removed. Dont use inappropriate language in sigs -Kaemonn
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.10.28 03:18:00 - [18] Originally by: General StarScream Well those numbers happen since everyone think amarr sucks. when i sarted i read the fourm first, and picked gallante as start. i wish everyday now, i had picked amarr or one of the others. Amarr skills got it all, ship sales dont prove nothing. Yes ship sales do prove something. People do not "think" Amarr suck. They know it. Do you really believe out of 100,000+ account NO ONE has figured out that Amarr are really great? Do you really believe people haven't crunched numbers and played with fittings and tried them out in a number of areas? Do you really believe that when Amarr used to be good and their ships were overpowered and the most populous in space that people just gave up on them even though they still rocked? No...the EVE community is savvy. When a good ship is out there they use them. The Amarr Pilgrim was a favorite till it got nerfed recently. People will and Do try them and if a ship performs well people will use them. But for Amarr they do not and that DOES tell us something.
Agetec Core	Posted - 2007.10.28 04:03:00 - [19] Ok lets stop derailing this thread. If you think that amarr are godly as hell pvpers, then dont post here. Just continue on browsing this forum calling me an idiot in your mind and everyone else here that believes that amarr isnt too healthy at the moment. Now for other people, any other ideas? Something that wont disturb the delicate balance like removing the cap problem from abaddon or giving the absolution 4th medium slot (however sexy both would be). This thread is to promote change to the mass majority of amarr ships that need some serious luvin. Any post after this not relating to that is as good as spam.
Khurrak	Posted - 2007.10.28 04:26:00 - [20] Amarr are actually extremely effective. carry 1 crystal of each type possible and you can switch them in a second to a different damage type, and a different cap use/range/damage amount. this alone should mean they have far more versatility than any race which waits 8 seconds to reload. low slots are there for a reason, and amarr are a very straight forward race. TBH people shouldnt really talk about amarr unless they have at least tried it. I find the lasers to be very destructive, and the ability to switch damages near instantly becomes a big plus.
Baleur Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.10.28 04:35:00 - [21] Make all laser crystals deal a new type of damage rather than fixed EM and Thermal, that can also be chosen for projectiles or hybrid turrets. I mean, the benefit with hybrid and projectile turrets are that you can have them deal ANY damage, explosive, thermal, em, kinetic, WHATEVER! The big downside to Amarr is that almost all their ships give bonuses to lasers, and lasers can only deal EM and Thermal damage, and not that much pure damage either tbh.. Or just make the different crystals deal different damage.. Like the xray could deal EM only, and the Infrared could deal Thermal only, or something.. To be honest, all lasers need a 50% damage boost, because since they can only deal damage in those 2 forms, it needs to be much damage since alot of it is just gonna be blocked by hardeners. ------------------------- This post represents my entire corporation's views and opinions. ;>
Grapez Advanced Security And Asset Protection	Posted - 2007.10.28 05:03:00 - [22] Originally by: Baleur the benefit with hybrid and projectile turrets are that you can have them deal ANY damage, explosive, thermal, em, kinetic, WHATEVER! HuH? WhaT? Hybrids do thermal/kinetic only. Originally by: Baleur The big downside to Amarr is that almost all their ships give bonuses to lasers, and lasers can only deal EM and Thermal damage, and not that much pure damage either tbh.. I could be wrong, but don't lasers do the most pure DPS of any weapon system? I mean, that's why they got nerfed in the first place. People were putting them on thoraxes and such, since they do 20% more damage than regular weapons. Originally by: Baleur Or just make the different crystals deal different damage.. Like the xray could deal EM only, and the Infrared could deal Thermal only, or something.. I've never understood the Amarr-damage-type problem. EM does wonders against shields, and thermal damage is just as good against armor. Because of how PvP works, and the larger number of armor tankers in gangs, maybe crystals could do more thermal and less EM? But aren't there already crystals that do mostly thermal? Originally by: Baleur To be honest, all lasers need a 50% damage boost, because since they can only deal damage in those 2 forms, it needs to be much damage since alot of it is just gonna be blocked by hardeners. No. 1.) lasers already do the most pure DPS and 2.) a hardened passive tank sucks to break, no matter what the damage type.
Crazy Yuri Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.28 05:08:00 - [23] I would lower base Armor EM resists 20% and move it to shields.
Baleur Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.10.28 05:10:00 - [24] Grapez no need to get anal, dont you recognize a clueless newbie when you see one? ------------------------- This post represents my entire corporation's views and opinions. ;>
Grapez Advanced Security And Asset Protection	Posted - 2007.10.28 05:55:00 - [25] Originally by: Baleur Grapez no need to get anal, dont you recognize a clueless newbie when you see one? lol sorry. But yeah, that's the general history of lasers and why Amarr are where they are right now.
Agetec Core	Posted - 2007.10.28 07:04:00 - [26] Regarding lasers, ccp obviously had some place in mind of amarr being able to take down shields with extreme ease. The downside though is that there are alot of more armor tankers than shield tankers when pvping which produces a problem of the laser not being really practical. While changing the damage type could easily solve this, I'm going to have to vote NO to it becasue that will completely change the current laser theme. Stuff like explosive lasers and ect strays too far from the initial concept of lasers and at the same time, would completely alter the amarr weapon system... (I'm personally supporting "tweaks" over radical revolutions) The problem with lasers (from what has been said) is that they've been nerfed 20% dps but (and i assume) no ratio of 20% less cap consumption (not that it is a good idea for sucha large nerf anyway). My brainworks at 3:00AM in the morning: If lasers were so frigging strong in the beggining then CCP's (yay captain obvious to teh rescue!!) concept for them is: BIG damage LONG range ZOMFWTF Cap consumption Now its just: LONG range ZOMGWTFCAP consumption One solution that might work here is a simple +10% to all laser damage. I've read this somewhere before but didnt quite understand the story behind it (though now I do). Though before I continue, I'd have to know if the laser nerf came before or after the damage mod stacking penalty nerf. If the damage mod nerf came first and THEN the laser nerf, then the problem was probably people taking geddeons (just one example) with already high as HELL damage and slapping on heatsinks and wtfpwning with god knows how much DPS. If this was the case then I believe that its safe to assume that the inherent problem was indeed with the laser's overpowered dps in such a way that CCP had to nerf lasers a SECOND time to bring it into balance. The first damage mod might as well be a direct nerf to amarr as amarr is a low slot themed race and damage mods are a cruitial element of low slots. Now the 2nd part is interesting: If lasers were nerfed before damage mods, then it would imply that CCP had a problem with the laser's DPS before the concept of nerfing damage mods. This might mean that CCP nerfed the lasers too early but left something for amarr characters to still live out the amarr theme as heavy hitters. After the damage mod however, that theme and role of amarrs were stripped away. The soultion to the 2nd delimma might be something as simple as bringing back the old amarr laser or simply return them back to at least 90% of what they were before the nerf. To help keep other races stick within the confines of their weapon systems, dont buff lasers so much that others will use lasers but do buff them numerically so that by using the racial damage bonus of 5% bonus to damage to projectile/hybrid/missile per level any other weapon system can surpass the damage of non bonused lasers by a good amount though nothing like what we have now with like a 400 dps difference... (apoc vs megas) This brings up another issue however as if the problem with lasers before was that they were too strong and everyone basically slapped em on ships they werent supposed to go on, then the current situation is JUST as bad as people using amarr are slapping on weapons from other races that shouldnt belong on amarr ships. Like the AC maller or Abaddon for example. Both are sexy with ACs (not that lasers dont work on them) and there should be a definite reason why a person would choose their racial weapon system instead of another system which just isnt happening. A simple solution would be to just give SOME of that damage once on lasers back to prevent this from happening. Even from a fluff perspective, its outrageous. Amarr ship using matar stuff? You're gona give the Emperor a heart attack So I suppose boosting laser damage is one healthy way of resolving this.
Agetec Core	Posted - 2007.10.28 07:34:00 - [27] Kudos to whoever proposed to buff amarr damage as a solution. <--Disclaimer as I recall reading it somwhere else first. To justify such a change in the amarr laser system, we have to really consider the difference of the races. The fact of the matter is, the weapon systems between the 4 races are different at the moment and they really should remain that way. Time to make another obvious statement to help justify this: Assumed themes of the initial concept of weapon systems: Missiles - Completely unique that has a different system of damage, payload delivery and ultimatly counteractions that can be taken. From numerical evidence, missiles seem to give higher versatility at the cost of lower damage. Projectiles - Gunnery styled weapon system with versatility at the cost of dps. I suppose this was supposed to be the "missile" version guns. With the ability to switch damage types and have great falloff, the price paid was dps. Hybrids - A strict weapon system that does only Kinetic and Thermal. My guess would be that this was meant to complement the drone system. Instead of operating as a standalone gunnery system (though it is fully capable of doing so), it was made to complement drones and result in a high damage duo combo that allowed SOME versatility due to drone damage. The price of being forced to use a drone system to add limited versatility in damage type is a generally higher overall damage than missiles and projectiles. Lasers: The most strict weapon system. While only capable of dealing 2 damage types while eating MASSIVE amounts of capacitor, it delivers massive damage at range and melee to help compensate for such a rigid damage system and complete lack of versatility. This rigidness is hardened even more as most amarr ships cant really field the drones they need to achieve gallente's level of choice and pickings in damage types. The geddeon may be one but it recieves no bonus to them and the idea behind them (assuming again) is probably like an epitome of amarr navy doctrines (also being a first generation BS): Hit hard (8 high slots, 5 heavy drones), tank hard (8 lows). Now dont blow that "omg so unbalanced solopwnmobile" cannon just yet. As many of you know, DPS and Tank are far from the defining factor of any PvP and after seeing a grand display of Electronic warfare in the recent alliance tournies, it is safe to say that high dps and tank is not enough (BoB's loss was a one in a million). These are the assumed initial concepts for the weapon systems. Just thought we'd establish this before moving on as changing one weapon system without considering the others and their properties just seems to be rushing it. So for those that dun wanna read the above, heres a quick summary: As availble damage types increase, pure raw damage decreases. As avaiable damage types decreases, pure raw damage increases. Keep in mind that while all these game changes happen over time, its not hard to see that CCP promotes versatility (with a price) over onmi tanking or omni damage. This would justify why versatility comes at a cost of damage easily and also why the Energized Nano Membrane II nerf.
Agetec Core	Posted - 2007.10.28 07:37:00 - [28] Edited by: Agetec Core on 28/10/2007 07:37:19 Now lets see if the 4 races with their respective weapon systems meet this criteria. Caldari + Missiles with very few drones: High weapon damage choice (all 4), generally lower damage - CHECK Matar + Projectiles with very few drones: Decent weapon damage choice (all 4 but mixed), generally lower damage with but getting an increased range as a compensating factor - CHECK Gallente + hybrids with drone armada : Good damage with half weapon versatility due to drones yet strict w/ the gun damage type - CHECK (NOTE: Due to the drone's vulnerability to external fire, I think it can be reasoned that letting gallente get a bit more dps than normal in exchange for weapon vulnerabilities is acceptable) Amarr + lasers with few drones : Best gun damage with NO VERSATILITY and kickass range at the cost of cap consumption becasue a simple lack of versatility just dosent cut it : NOT CHECKED!!!! (ZOMG HIGH DAMAGE AND GOOD RANGE? WOOHOO!!.... THE CAKE IS A LIE!!!) OOPS! We've run into an issue. So there. Give it a damage boost and restore the consequence of having a rigid damage system with super cap consumption.
General StarScream THE DECEPTIC0NS	Posted - 2007.10.28 09:06:00 - [29] Haha you people are so wrong. While Em is the high natural res on any armor tank, its offen the lowest on 75% and the others at 80%. Its just wrong to state that armor tank has most em % tottl Bs. no one is going to tank Em since no one is using amarr anyway. and doing so would reduce the % on the other types. all Races can use drones, so saying that Hybrid gets ANYTHING extra from drone dps added. And not the others is tottal bs. Sig Removed. Dont use inappropriate language in sigs -Kaemonn
Nofonno Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2007.10.28 09:34:00 - [30] Edited by: Nofonno on 28/10/2007 09:35:59 Edited by: Nofonno on 28/10/2007 09:35:05 I thought a bit, lazily, and came with two ideas: 1) give us a lowslot weapon upgrade that increases laser damage, not laser RoF (like all the other races have) 2) give us a one-time use laser crystals that would do some 180-220% of usual laser crystal damage (that's really a wild guess, it would need to be fine-tuned); they may overheat the turrets in the process (edit for the percent values) A scientist must be an optimist at heart - to have the strength to rally against a chorus of voices saying "it cannot be done".

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