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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.10.31 02:31:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: sheis
There is also a demand for 11 year old prostitutes we should totally stop the pointless struggle to moderate said demand! I mean this is reality they are gonna get those hookers somewhere! Might as well cash in! Dont let your silly IDEALS get in the way! But in REALITY when there is a consequence for a certain behavior people tend to not do said activity for fear of the repercussions. Allowing RMT farmers to pay for their accounts by said activity is stupid for any number of reasons.
Those of you in Uni copy this and take it to your Logic Professors as an excellent example of a straw man argument.
GTC trading has some legitimate beneficial effects. The only downside is now someone has a battleship that you think they shouldn't because they didn't mine or yarr for it.
It would be one thing if you could "win" EVE. As if we were playing chess and I bought 5 Queens for my side. But EVE does not work like that.
Further, GTC sales are self limiting. Only so many people want to buy them. If supply increases price will decrease but no one can just convert endless amounts cash to ISK via GTC sales. How this hurts the longevity of EVE I do not see.
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Kayna Eelai
Gallente
GNATHIC
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Posted - 2007.10.31 07:31:00 -
[32]
maybe i change my mind in the future, but right now, for me GTC trading is like cheating. it gives an INGAME advantage for people with more REAL LIFE money.
and on the other side, it makes ppl. that ingame is already rich, also rich out of the game, as they trade their ISK for GTC.
i hate it when certain ppl. (the rich ones) get advantages over the ones with less resources. due such behaviour and rule bending we have so much misery IRL: the rich ppl. becomes richer and the poor become poorer.
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WhiteSavage
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Posted - 2007.10.31 08:11:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Kayna Eelai
maybe i change my mind in the future, but right now, for me GTC trading is like cheating. it gives an INGAME advantage for people with more REAL LIFE money.
and on the other side, it makes ppl. that ingame is already rich, also rich out of the game, as they trade their ISK for GTC.
i hate it when certain ppl. (the rich ones) get advantages over the ones with less resources. due such behaviour and rule bending we have so much misery IRL: the rich ppl. becomes richer and the poor become poorer.
Suggesting rich people will buy more ingame ISK on an incremental ratio with their real bank accounts is silly.
And suggesting people that are rich in-game are somehow becoming richer in real life by saving $15 a month is just a tiny bit sillier.
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Kayna Eelai
Gallente
GNATHIC
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Posted - 2007.10.31 11:27:00 -
[34]
Originally by: WhiteSavage
Suggesting rich people will buy more ingame ISK on an incremental ratio with their real bank accounts is silly.
then explain stuff like THIS or how a kid used around 1000 $ from his parents VISA to buy GTC, changed em for ISK, bought a 35M SP char with mothership... and lost it all in less than 24h. due his noobyness. and it's not an isolated thing. ppl. use their RL wealth to get advantage ingame (even if they can lose it there easy, but that's another story)
Quote:
And suggesting people that are rich in-game are somehow becoming richer in real life by saving $15 a month is just a tiny bit sillier.
"rich" is a relative word. 15$ can be a FORTUNE for some people. and if by selling ISK you can get free month, you save up 180$ a year... and that's quite a lot for some ppl.
fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes) |
sheis
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Posted - 2007.10.31 19:49:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: sheis
There is also a demand for 11 year old prostitutes we should totally stop the pointless struggle to moderate said demand! I mean this is reality they are gonna get those hookers somewhere! Might as well cash in! Dont let your silly IDEALS get in the way! But in REALITY when there is a consequence for a certain behavior people tend to not do said activity for fear of the repercussions. Allowing RMT farmers to pay for their accounts by said activity is stupid for any number of reasons.
Those of you in Uni copy this and take it to your Logic Professors as an excellent example of a straw man argument.
GTC trading has some legitimate beneficial effects. The only downside is now someone has a battleship that you think they shouldn't because they didn't mine or yarr for it.
It would be one thing if you could "win" EVE. As if we were playing chess and I bought 5 Queens for my side. But EVE does not work like that.
Further, GTC sales are self limiting. Only so many people want to buy them. If supply increases price will decrease but no one can just convert endless amounts cash to ISK via GTC sales. How this hurts the longevity of EVE I do not see.
You supported your assertion using "supply/demand" as an example to substantiate your opinion. I gave another extreme example of supply/demand to show how silly that argument is. Dont use words terms like "straw man" until you understand what it means. GTC sales ARE NOT SELF LIMITING. Every isk farmer in the game will use in game currency to purchase GTC's to continue to farm.And as we know there is no shortage of people willing to cheat and purchase isk either "legally" or not. Sooooo we have isk buyers selling GTC's to isk farmers who then sell the isk on ebay. If anything its a self perpetuating cycle that will only increase as time goes on. You think a single isk farmer pays cash for their subscription?
In EvE isk is power. You can attain ANYTHING that exists within this game with enough isk. And no its not just a random noob who spends 1,000$ on isk to get into a faction ship he shouldn't be in. And to purchase a char he doesn't know what to do with it. Its 100 of these idiots doing it to support a corp/alliance. To give them an advantage that will totally negate in game mechanics. Its cheating pure and simple. Its the same exact thing as buying extra pieces in chess. Only in a more dynamic environment. I like being able to pay for my game time with isk as much as the next guy. but its harmful to the game and very lame.
what they should do is cap 1 30day GTC transfer per account per month. where you have to enter the code into the sender and receivers account. So the sender can only transfer 1 GTC. And the receiver can only accept 1 per month. allows people to pay for their game time. And extremely limits people from using the GTC system to buy billions of isk.
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sheis
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Posted - 2007.10.31 19:53:00 -
[36]
Originally by: WhiteSavage
Originally by: Kayna Eelai
maybe i change my mind in the future, but right now, for me GTC trading is like cheating. it gives an INGAME advantage for people with more REAL LIFE money.
and on the other side, it makes ppl. that ingame is already rich, also rich out of the game, as they trade their ISK for GTC.
i hate it when certain ppl. (the rich ones) get advantages over the ones with less resources. due such behaviour and rule bending we have so much misery IRL: the rich ppl. becomes richer and the poor become poorer.
Suggesting rich people will buy more ingame ISK on an incremental ratio with their real bank accounts is silly.
And suggesting people that are rich in-game are somehow becoming richer in real life by saving $15 a month is just a tiny bit sillier.
You seem to have no clue how common players that obviously spend 100's of dollars on isk is. And thats just the blatantly obvious examples of complete noobs doing so. How much do you think this occurs in massive conflicts were both sides have invested 100's of days played to achieve something?
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Sinnbad Mayhem
Amarr
Suicidal Mercenaries
Pure.
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Posted - 2007.11.01 03:16:00 -
[37]
Experience > Isk
Let them gather isk with GTCs. Let them come. Let them die. That they will, many many times until they learn.
You can't buy success, you can only delay the inevitable. Isk is only one part of the formula. Sure you can buy lots of ships but if you cant fly them all yourself. You could give everyone ships, but ppl will fly them without regard and prolly lose them even faster.
Success in EVE = Teamwork, Experience, Skill and Dedication
S&M |
sheis
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Posted - 2007.11.01 05:06:00 -
[38]
Edited by: sheis on 01/11/2007 05:06:39
Originally by: Sinnbad Mayhem
Experience > Isk
Let them gather isk with GTCs. Let them come. Let them die. That they will, many many times until they learn.
You can't buy success, you can only delay the inevitable. Isk is only one part of the formula. Sure you can buy lots of ships but if you cant fly them all yourself. You could give everyone ships, but ppl will fly them without regard and prolly lose them even faster.
Success in EVE = Teamwork, Experience, Skill and Dedication
But you see Isk buying isnt restricted to nubs.
So what happens when a veteran does the same thing? What happens when MANY veterans do? GTC buying is not just the domain of noobs. Whose more motivating to buy isk. The noob who has no fing clue whats going on. Or the group of guys who have invested 3 years into an alliance thats losing? There is no possible way you can think a well of isk that does not come from in game means is not a HUGE advantage.
TONS of wars are ended by who has the most isk. Who can spam POS more. Who can replace/field more capitals. Who has titans or not. What is the magical thing that you think isk cant buy? People rent vast stretches of 0.0 for isk. People can purchase any in game mod/ship for isk. Someone can purchase any character for isk. Someone can pay for accounts with isk? People can HIRE non-noob corps/alliances to fight and take space for them.True assloads of isk in the hands of a noob isnt that scary (and benefits those who find said noob) but there is no noob requirement to doing so.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.11.01 05:45:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 01/11/2007 05:49:39
Originally by: sheis
You supported your assertion using "supply/demand" as an example to substantiate your opinion. I gave another extreme example of supply/demand to show how silly that argument is. Dont use words terms like "straw man" until you understand what it means.
I know exactly what a "Straw Man" argument is:
"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. Often, the straw man is set up to deliberately overstate the opponent's position.[1] A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact a misleading fallacy, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.[2]"
You attributed my example as being akin to being ok with 11 year old prostitutes. That meets the "misrepresentation of an opponents position that is easy to refute" and "attribute that position to the opponent" and "deliberately overstate the opponent's position".
In other words a textbook straw man argument unless you really see no difference between making alcohol illegal and making child prostitution illegal. I think there is one hell of a gulf between those two but maybe that's just me.
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GTC sales ARE NOT SELF LIMITING. Every isk farmer in the game will use in game currency to purchase GTC's to continue to farm.And as we know there is no shortage of people willing to cheat and purchase isk either "legally" or not. Sooooo we have isk buyers selling GTC's to isk farmers who then sell the isk on ebay. If anything its a self perpetuating cycle that will only increase as time goes on. You think a single isk farmer pays cash for their subscription?
GTC are applied DIRECTLY to the buyers account upon sale. They cannot turn around and resell it. If I sold you a GTC today YOUR account gets the time credit and that's that. You cannot go e-bay it after I sell it to you. Not to mention I do not see how you think you could make money by e-baying it anyway.
Then consider there are only so many people in the game who want to fund their subscription with ISK. It's a market and supply/demand has set the price we see today. If more people want to use ISK to pay for the game the price will rise. If more people want to buy ISK the price will drop. So like any market it self limits itself and we get what we see today.
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In EvE isk is power. You can attain ANYTHING that exists within this game with enough isk. And no its not just a random noob who spends 1,000$ on isk to get into a faction ship he shouldn't be in. And to purchase a char he doesn't know what to do with it. Its 100 of these idiots doing it to support a corp/alliance. To give them an advantage that will totally negate in game mechanics. Its cheating pure and simple. Its the same exact thing as buying extra pieces in chess. Only in a more dynamic environment. I like being able to pay for my game time with isk as much as the next guy. but its harmful to the game and very lame.
The guy who buys ISK likely cannot grind for 8 hours to achieve the same result. Essentially they are paying for someone else to do it for them but SOMEONE has to do it. What could be more capitalist than that? You are simply moving wealth around. No one is magicing up a Titan. If one guy "buys" it with GTC sales he has done so because an army of normal players worked for it (and the people who buy GTC with ISK are not the same as sweatshop farmers...they are regular players). In some alliances they convince the members to help mine them into a Titan. I do not see the difference where the first is cheating but the second is not. At least in the first (selling GTC) the "workers" actually get something tangible back for their efforts.
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sheis
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Posted - 2007.11.01 06:28:00 -
[40]
Quote:
In other words a textbook straw man argument unless you really see no difference between making alcohol illegal and making child prostitution illegal. I think there is one hell of a gulf between those two but maybe that's just me.
I didn't realize i would have to explain your own argument to yourself. You used the excuse of supply/demand to justify making said demand legitimate and supported. Prohibition was an example to support your premise. Hence i gave another example of supply and demand to show the fallacy of your argument. As in just because there is a market for a service or activity should it be legitimized. For example there is a service for bot running mission runners/miners should that also be an allowed activity? By your previous words you believe it does. Hence i was not over stated your argument i was providing an example using the same logic you employ. Prohibition may have empowered the black market but it also sure as hell decreased the consumption of alcohol.
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GTC are applied DIRECTLY to the buyers account upon sale. They cannot turn around and resell it. If I sold you a GTC today YOUR account gets the time credit and that's that. You cannot go e-bay it after I sell it to you. Not to mention I do not see how you think you could make money by e-baying it anyway.
I never said it did perhaps you should read a bit slower? I said ISK farmers who sell isk on ebay can fully support and pay for their accounts directly through FARMING IN GAME CURRENCY. They don't provide ANY cash to CCP while boting/farming. GTC's allows farmers to SPAM accounts without even having to pay for said accounts with any real money. Hence no deterrent what so ever to being suspended caught? In other games when an isk buyer is banned they take a LOSS in real currency they invested in the account and in the subscription for said account. In EvE they lose NOTHING that was not provided by playing the game.
Quote:
The guy who buys ISK likely cannot grind for 8 hours to achieve the same result. Essentially they are paying for someone else to do it for them but SOMEONE has to do it. What could be more capitalist than that? You are simply moving wealth around. No one is magicing up a Titan. If one guy "buys" it with GTC sales he has done so because an army of normal players worked for it (and the people who buy GTC with ISK are not the same as sweatshop farmers...they are regular players). In some alliances they convince the members to help mine them into a Titan. I do not see the difference where the first is cheating but the second is not. At least in the first (selling GTC) the "workers" actually get something tangible back for their efforts.
Correct people can attain the same things WITHOUT PLAYING THE GAME. That those who play by the games mechanics CANNOT or CAN through EFFORT. THAT IS WHY IT IS CHEATING. I can either be a good chess player by investing time playing and learning the game OR i can just buy extra pieces and trump the game.Do you consider it unfair when a grand master at chess who had dedicated years to learning and playing the game beats you? Do you attempt to circumvent the the rules of chess so you can compete? Or do you just lose thinking naturaly someone who dedicates more time to a game is BETTER at it than yourself? CCP agrees that isk buying is not fair and ruins the game as well. Read the recent BLOG clearly stating that very thing. Obviously they forgot they allow isk buying.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.11.01 07:01:00 -
[41]
Originally by: sheis
I didn't realize i would have to explain your own argument to yourself. You used the excuse of supply/demand to justify making said demand legitimate and supported. Prohibition was an example to support your premise. Hence i gave another example of supply and demand to show the fallacy of your argument. As in just because there is a market for a service or activity should it be legitimized. For example there is a service for bot running mission runners/miners should that also be an allowed activity? By your previous words you believe it does. Hence i was not over stated your argument i was providing an example using the same logic you employ. Prohibition may have empowered the black market but it also sure as hell decreased the consumption of alcohol.
You are attributing to me that demand for ANYTHING is an argument for making it legitimate. I did no such thing. You overstated my argument saying child prostitution is the same thing. It is not. Not by a long shot not to mention offensive.
The example of Prohibition was chosen for a reason. There are some downsides to alcohol consumption but making it wholly illegal was far worse in effect and it was repealed as a result. CCP sees some downsides to selling GTC but making it wholly illegal is worse for them so they allow it. Analogies are of course never perfect but it was an illustration and nowhere does it argue for child sex slaves.
Quote:
I never said it did perhaps you should read a bit slower? I said ISK farmers who sell isk on ebay can fully support and pay for their accounts directly through FARMING IN GAME CURRENCY. They don't provide ANY cash to CCP while boting/farming. GTC's allows farmers to SPAM accounts without even having to pay for said accounts with any real money. Hence no deterrent what so ever to being suspended caught? In other games when an isk buyer is banned they take a LOSS in real currency they invested in the account and in the subscription for said account. In EvE they lose NOTHING that was not provided by playing the game.
Of course CCP is getting their money. One way or another those accounts are being paid for with real world currency. If they get caught the ISK they spent to pay for the account is lost. ISK they could otheriwse have sold so yes, they are out something (not to mention having to train up a new character).
Quote:
Correct people can attain the same things WITHOUT PLAYING THE GAME. That those who play by the games mechanics CANNOT or CAN through EFFORT. THAT IS WHY IT IS CHEATING. I can either be a good chess player by investing time playing and learning the game OR i can just buy extra pieces and trump the game.Do you consider it unfair when a grand master at chess who had dedicated years to learning and playing the game beats you? Do you attempt to circumvent the the rules of chess so you can compete? Or do you just lose thinking naturaly someone who dedicates more time to a game is BETTER at it than yourself? CCP agrees that isk buying is not fair and ruins the game as well. Read the recent BLOG clearly stating that very thing. Obviously they forgot they allow isk buying.
You cannot "win" EVE like you can win at chess. Dedicating time to grinding up ISK to buy yourself a Titan does not make you a better player. Just a player with more time to play. And obviously CCP supports and indeed enables GTC selling.
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WhiteSavage
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Posted - 2007.11.01 08:04:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Kayna Eelai
Originally by: WhiteSavage
Suggesting rich people will buy more ingame ISK on an incremental ratio with their real bank accounts is silly.
then explain stuff like THIS or how a kid used around 1000 $ from his parents VISA to buy GTC, changed em for ISK, bought a 35M SP char with mothership... and lost it all in less than 24h. due his noobyness. and it's not an isolated thing. ppl. use their RL wealth to get advantage ingame (even if they can lose it there easy, but that's another story)
Quote:
And suggesting people that are rich in-game are somehow becoming richer in real life by saving $15 a month is just a tiny bit sillier.
"rich" is a relative word. 15$ can be a FORTUNE for some people. and if by selling ISK you can get free month, you save up 180$ a year... and that's quite a lot for some ppl.
Suggesting that EVERY rich person will buy more ISK on an incremental ratio with their real life bank accounts is SILLY.
And suggesting people that are rich in-game are somehow becoming richer in real life by saving $15 a month is just a tiny bit SILLIER.
^If you are saying that people who feel $15 is a FORTUNE spend it on an online MMORPG like eve... then they either need to feed their children instead of playing video games, or they need to hit their head against a trampoline untill the world becomes clearer.
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sheis
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Posted - 2007.11.01 08:31:00 -
[43]
Quote:
You are attributing to me that demand for ANYTHING is an argument for making it legitimate. I did no such thing. You overstated my argument saying child prostitution is the same thing. It is not. Not by a long shot not to mention offensive.
You really dont seem capable of a coherent on topic response. Your justification for allowing isk buying WAS THAT IF THERE IS A DEMAND IT WILL BE MET ERGO ONE SHOULD FACILITATE SAID ACTIVITY SINCE ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO PREVENT IT FROM OCCURRING.
So your argument is demand=justification for supporting and facilitating said activity. What said demand is changes NOTHING about your premise. The example i provided was an extreme illustration of YOUR OWN LOGIC. That is not an example of a straw man argument so please stop using terms you don't understand. Yes there will never be a lack of demand for cheating... that does not somehow justify allowing it to occur. Laws exist for a reason and a majority of them exist in contrast to a persons desires.
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Of course CCP is getting their money. One way or another those accounts are being paid for with real world currency. If they get caught the ISK they spent to pay for the account is lost. ISK they could otheriwse have sold so yes, they are out something (not to mention having to train up a new character).
Uhhh being out isk that you attained in a GAME. Is not the same thing as being out of the capital you INVESTED in said farming activity. Farming in other games COSTS real world assets outside of PLAYING. In EVE being an illegal isk seller and farmer is supported by GTC sales. You can buy characters and GTC's all an ebay farmer has to do to support his activities is play the game. Can you not understand how losing something you stole (attained by illegal activity) is not the same thing as losing an item you bought?
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You cannot "win" EVE like you can win at chess. Dedicating time to grinding up ISK to buy yourself a Titan does not make you a better player. Just a player with more time to play. And obviously CCP supports and indeed enables GTC selling. Rolling Eyes
No you can win and lose at eve the game just doesn't end when you do. Dedicating time to learn game dynamics to function and build a titan collectively sure as **** requires experience and ability. How exactly do you think someone gains experience and ability if not by playing the freaking game
Same argument can be said being a grand master at chess doesn't mean you are inherently better than me! you are just a player with more time to play! Whoever said CCP didn't allow it? Please try to respond in a coherent fashion. They have clearly pointed out the damage that allowing isk buying/selling does to the game. As well as it being inherently unfair. As they have CLEARLY stated. Them wanting to profit from said activity doesn't somehow negate that it in fact is harmful as they have admitted it is.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.11.01 09:10:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 01/11/2007 09:13:51
Originally by: sheis
You really dont seem capable of a coherent on topic response. Your justification for allowing isk buying WAS THAT IF THERE IS A DEMAND IT WILL BE MET ERGO ONE SHOULD FACILITATE SAID ACTIVITY SINCE ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO PREVENT IT FROM OCCURRING.
So your argument is demand=justification for supporting and facilitating said activity. What said demand is changes NOTHING about your premise. The example i provided was an extreme illustration of YOUR OWN LOGIC. That is not an example of a straw man argument so please stop using terms you don't understand.
Oh FFS. It is a straw man...I provided you with a definition and you met EVERY criteria for one. There is nothing in what I said that demand equals justification for anything. Presumably there are some people out there who would pay to go hunt people or torture them ala the movie Hostel. Your example is a straw man argument. It overstates my position by a HUGE amount. It is fallacious and it is patently wrong. Period.
Quote:
Uhhh being out isk that you attained in a GAME. Is not the same thing as being out of the capital you INVESTED in said farming activity. Farming in other games COSTS real world assets outside of PLAYING. In EVE being an illegal isk seller and farmer is supported by GTC sales. You can buy characters and GTC's all an ebay farmer has to do to support his activities is play the game. Can you not understand how losing something you stole (attained by illegal activity) is not the same thing as losing an item you bought?
You are conflating so many things here I cannot follow. Are "farmers" sweatshop farmers who play EVE in order to sell ISK? Or are "farmers" just some guy grinding ISK so he can buy himself a battleship? Be clear. Who is buying what (via GTC OR E-Bay) and for what purpose (to play the game or to sell for real cash)? I'm not sure you are even clear on this.
Quote:
Please try to respond in a coherent fashion. They have clearly pointed out the damage that allowing isk buying/selling does to the game. As well as it being inherently unfair. As they have CLEARLY stated. Them wanting to profit from said activity doesn't somehow negate that it in fact is harmful as they have admitted it is.
Seems to me you are lacking any understanding of this issue. Sounds like you are arguing against ISK selling on E-Bay and then conflating that with GTC sales and muddying the waters so much mixing them up I doubt you can follow your own arguments much less the rest of us. If it is E-Bay sales you are talking about I agree with you and CCP. But if you are talking about GTC sales that is a whole different matter and CCP not only allows it THEY ENABLE IT VIA THEIR OWN SERVERS! They actually spent developer time to put a system in place that THEY run to let it happen.
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WhiteSavage
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.11.01 09:16:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
But if you are talking about GTC sales that is a whole different matter and CCP not only allows it THEY ENABLE IT VIA THEIR OWN SERVERS! They actually spent developer time to put a system in place that THEY run to let it happen.
erhm. quote
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Facta Non Verba |
Lazaroth
Caldari
Ethereal Technologies
STYX.
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Posted - 2007.11.01 09:28:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Lazaroth on 01/11/2007 09:29:15
A Noob with 5bill ISK is still a Noob.. ISK can't buy you skill (and no I dont mean the skillbooks ) Also I am a sig-maker from which I gain ISK, ISK which helps me pay for my subscribtion.. but using ISK for GTC means I have less coins to use on shiny new things.
And honestly who cares if someone has the billions to go get fancy modules all the time.. they can be shot (maybe not as easily) but shot none the less.
And a final note I would'nt care for any of my assets if I haven't worked for them (and yes I consider spending hours on photoshop satisfying the needs of others a kind of work). I'm guessing that someone who accually worked 8 hours at a factory/store [insert job] to make ISK would feel the same way.
Laz
Request a sig at Eve-gfx.com |
Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.11.01 09:35:00 -
[47]
Originally by: WhiteSavage
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
But if you are talking about GTC sales that is a whole different matter and CCP not only allows it THEY ENABLE IT VIA THEIR OWN SERVERS! They actually spent developer time to put a system in place that THEY run to let it happen.
erhm. quote
Huh? Quote of what?
On this webpage go to:
MY ACCOUNT > ACCOUNT SERVICES > SECURELY SELL EVE TIME CODE
That is where CCP, via their own servers, provides a secure means for players to sell EVE Time Codes to other players in exchange for ISK.
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sheis
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Posted - 2007.11.01 09:36:00 -
[48]
Quote:
Oh FFS. It is a straw man...I provided you with a definition and you met EVERY criteria for one. There is nothing in what I said that demand equals justification for anything. Presumably there are some people out there who would pay to go hunt people or torture them ala the movie Hostel. Your example is a straw man argument. It overstates my position by a HUGE amount. It is fallacious and it is patently wrong. Period.
Are you drunk? Or do you not even understand the drivel you spew? You said that you are a pragmatist. That choices should not be made upon ideals but the REALITY of the situation. You elaborated your point using the example of prohibition. and then further added its pointless to attempt to stop something from occurring and that one is better off supporting a regulating said activity. I have given numerous examples of why that logic is stupid? I gave an example illustrating point by point your argument.
1. If there is a demand it will be met by someone
2. If unable to prevent said activity one should regulate it and not oppose it based on ideology (an example of an ideal would be that said activity is morally WRONG)
I will give you a line by line comparison now.
1.There is a demand for isk buying. One will never be able to stop said activity entirely so one should make it legal and facilitate it making a profit regardless of ideals.
2.There is a demand for alcohol. One will never be able to stop said activity entirely so one should make it legal and facilitate it making a profit regardless of ideals.
3.There is a demand for underage prostitutes. One will never be able to stop said activity entirely so one should make it legal and facilitate it making a profit regardless of ideals.
How exactly does my example not clearly embody your own assertions? Instead of using terms you obviously don't comprehend how about you explain how my comparison doesn't represent your own idiocy? Further examples being i guess botting should also be legal right? I mean theres a demand for it after all. I cant explain it in any clearer terms for you do understand.
Quote:
You are conflating so many things here I cannot follow. Are "farmers" sweatshop farmers who play EVE in order to sell ISK? Or are "farmers" just some guy grinding ISK so he can buy himself a battleship? Be clear. Who is buying what (via GTC OR E-Bay) and for what purpose (to play the game or to sell for real cash)? I'm not sure you are even clear on this.
when i use the term farmer its to imply someone doing so with the intention to later sell said isk for real money. It was pretty evident thats what i meant but i guess when one has no rational argument ole "ir 2 stupids 2 understands you" defense is all one has.
You seem to make some artificial distinction on that if someone buys GTC's to buy isk and buying isk from ebay. Somehow changes the negative aspects it causes a game. Naturally you cant comprehend a question so you couldn't possibly be expected to answer it.
Quote:
Seems to me you are lacking any understanding of this issue. Sounds like you are arguing against ISK selling on E-Bay and then conflating that with GTC sales and muddying the waters so much mixing them up I doubt you can follow your own arguments much less the rest of us. If it is E-Bay sales you are talking about I agree with you and CCP. But if you are talking about GTC sales that is a whole different matter and CCP not only allows it THEY ENABLE IT VIA THEIR OWN SERVERS! They actually spent
Are you just pretending to be this dim. The sole distinction between buying GTC's and converting them to cash. And just converting cash into isk via ebay is that CCP receives said profit in one example. And in the other it does not. OTHER THAN THAT THERE IS NO DISTINCTION. IT HAS THE SAME EFFECTS TO THE GAME. IT IS THE SAME THING. CCP has stated the reasons buying isk is harmful RECENTLY IN A BLOG. GTC selling is the same as isk buying! its the same!
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sheis
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Posted - 2007.11.01 09:42:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Lazaroth
Edited by: Lazaroth on 01/11/2007 09:29:15
A Noob with 5bill ISK is still a Noob.. ISK can't buy you skill (and no I dont mean the skillbooks ) Also I am a sig-maker from which I gain ISK, ISK which helps me pay for my subscribtion.. but using ISK for GTC means I have less coins to use on shiny new things.
And honestly who cares if someone has the billions to go get fancy modules all the time.. they can be shot (maybe not as easily) but shot none the less.
And a final note I would'nt care for any of my assets if I haven't worked for them (and yes I consider spending hours on photoshop satisfying the needs of others a kind of work). I'm guessing that someone who accually worked 8 hours at a factory/store [insert job] to make ISK would feel the same way.
Laz
Does someone being a noob somehow change something when they hire a vast and powerful alliance to work for them. And why do your examples must be a noob? You dont think established experience players use GTC/isk buying to support and gain an advantage over those who dont? Its just in the example of a noob its obvious.
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Scorpyn
Caldari
Infinitus Odium
The Church.
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Posted - 2007.11.01 09:46:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Lazaroth
A Noob with 5bill ISK is still a Noob.. ISK can't buy you skill (and no I dont mean the skillbooks )
You seem to be under the impression that noobs only compete with non-noobs. This is wrong. So even if only noobs would be allowed to buy isk, it'd still be an issue.
2007-07-19 20:26
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.11.01 10:02:00 -
[51]
Originally by: sheis
How exactly does my example not clearly embody your own assertions? Instead of using terms you obviously don't comprehend how about you explain how my comparison doesn't represent your own idiocy? Further examples being i guess botting should also be legal right? I mean theres a demand for it after all. I cant explain it in any clearer terms for you do understand.
It does not embody my assertions because it gives no credence to the notion that there are differing levels of "wrong". I can assault you by slapping you or stabbing you. Say I made an argument that I think slapping someone should get 5 hours of community service as punishment for assaulting someone. Then you swing by doing your best impression of Chicken Little going, "OMG! If you stab someone you should only get 5 hours community service!? Assault is assault afterall!"
There are some evils associated with alcohol to be sure but the alternative was far worse with an outright ban. Apparently the US government and people thought so because they repealed the law. I have never, ever seen anyone argue for legalizing child sex slaves because, ya know, maybe the merits of such just are not remotely on the same plane as prohibition.
Quote:
when i use the term farmer its to imply someone doing so with the intention to later sell said isk for real money. It was pretty evident thats what i meant but i guess when one has no rational argument ole "ir 2 stupids 2 understands you" defense is all one has.
You seem to make some artificial distinction on that if someone buys GTC's to buy isk and buying isk from ebay. Somehow changes the negative aspects it causes a game. Naturally you cant comprehend a question so you couldn't possibly be expected to answer it.
It does change the negative aspect it has on the game. It has beneficial effects (that I listed in earlier posts) that ISK farmers/sellers do not provide.
Quote:
Are you just pretending to be this dim. The sole distinction between buying GTC's and converting them to cash. And just converting cash into isk via ebay is that CCP receives said profit in one example. And in the other it does not. OTHER THAN THAT THERE IS NO DISTINCTION. IT HAS THE SAME EFFECTS TO THE GAME. IT IS THE SAME THING. CCP has stated the reasons buying isk is harmful RECENTLY IN A BLOG. GTC selling is the same as isk buying!
Apparently CCP does not agree with you. CCP wrote a blog on the evils of ISK buying. Yet CCP enables GTC selling. They spent developer time to code the web page and the game to support it. From that would you not suppose that maybe, just possibly, CCP does not see this the same as you? If they were SO bent out of shape over the evils of ISK buying please explain why CCP support GTC sales in game for ISK.
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Scorpyn
Caldari
Infinitus Odium
The Church.
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Posted - 2007.11.01 10:19:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Apparently CCP does not agree with you. CCP wrote a blog on the evils of ISK buying. Yet CCP enables GTC selling. They spent developer time to code the web page and the game to support it. From that would you not suppose that maybe, just possibly, CCP does not see this the same as you? If they were SO bent out of shape over the evils of ISK buying please explain why CCP support GTC sales in game for ISK.
The question is not whether it is allowed or not. The question is whether it should be allowed or not.
2007-07-19 20:26
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sheis
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Posted - 2007.11.01 10:45:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Quote:
It does not embody my assertions because it gives no credence to the notion that there are differing levels of "wrong".
You clearly stated that you are a pragmatist and only dealt with reality not IDEALS (morality). As a matter of fact you said if something is wrong is a non-issue if its going to exist anyway. You yourself removed any notion of right/wrong in your assertions. Dont blame me because your own argument is weak and idiotic.
Quote:
It does change the negative aspect it has on the game. It has beneficial effects (that I listed in earlier posts) that ISK farmers/sellers do not provide.
Once again you dont seem to have a very advanced grasp of English. The ONLY thing you listed thats inherently different between CCP legitimatized isk sell and ebay is the security CCP provides. Which on no way changes any impact that buying isk has on the game.
Quote:
Apparently CCP does not agree with you. CCP wrote a blog on the evils of ISK buying. Yet CCP enables GTC selling. They spent developer time to code the web page and the game to support it. From that would you not suppose that maybe, just possibly, CCP does not see this the same as you? If they were SO bent out of shape over the evils of ISK buying please explain why CCP support GTC sales in game for ISK.
You really just dont seem to be able to understand very straight forward ideas. Even when REPEATEDLY explained to you.
FACTS: CCP did in fact release a blog listing all the harmful effects of isk buying. All of these negative effects exist regardless if CCP personally profits from said isk. Or if a 3rd party does therefore ccp is very well aware and agrees with me that being able to purchase in game power with out of game money IS UNFAIR AND HURTS THE GAME. The issue isn't whether CCP does or does not allow isk buying. Its that they allow isk buying while STRAIGHT UP SAYING IT HURTS THE GAME. Im sure you once again will be unable to understand this being a ****** and all. You are really bad at this.
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sheis
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Posted - 2007.11.01 10:49:00 -
[54]
First of all, money is power in EVE. Buying your way to power while others slowly and surely play their way towards the top (within the rules!) with their fists clenched and a mad glint in their eyes, is cheating. Plain and simple. EVE is intended to be a level playground where people either make it or not based solely on their abilities and hard work INSIDE EVE, not outside of it. It should not matter whether you are a rich man or a poor man in the real world. Once you enter the magnificent world of EVE Online, all that should matter is how well you put your abilities to use in the game and the thickness of oneÆs real world wallet should not be used to tip the balance.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.11.01 11:20:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 01/11/2007 11:22:22
Originally by: sheis
You clearly stated that you are a pragmatist and only dealt with reality not IDEALS (morality). As a matter of fact you said if something is wrong is a non-issue if its going to exist anyway. You yourself removed any notion of right/wrong in your assertions. Dont blame me because your own argument is weak and idiotic.
So you honestly took away from what I wrote that I am totally divorced of any moral center and support ANYTHING, no matter how perverted or outright evil, as long as someone merely "wants" to do something or it will exist anyway? From that I guess you think I support murder since it will happen anyway. Burning kittins? Sure...why not? Or could it be that I was talking specifically within the context of THIS topic? That you are hanging on for dear life to a faulty position with your fingers in your ears going "Nah nah nah...can't hear you....nah nah nah!"
Pragmatism in NO WAY precludes morality or ideology but it can inform them and be used to modify a position. For instance global warming is bad. Ideological viewpoint would be to move back into caves and toss away all use of fossil fuels. Pragmatic viewpoint...not going to happen...what can we do to mitigate the issue and still retain the benefits of our technology?
Quote:
Once again you dont seem to have a very advanced grasp of English. The ONLY thing you listed thats inherently different between CCP legitimatized isk sell and ebay is the security CCP provides. Which on no way changes any impact that buying isk has on the game.
And you blame me of not reading? I ONLY listed security? In fact I didn't list security at all. From post #4 in this thread:
"- Selling GTC sees that CCP gets money. CCP gets no money from ISK sellers. In the end CCP is a business and making money is what they do and keeps the serves on for all of us.
- Selling GTC is a service to other players. Many find the $15/month too much to spend for a game but being able to buy GTC with in-game currency allows them to continue playing.
- Selling GTC does not encourage the insane grinding that ISK sellers do who have 30 guys mining 23/7 which affects in-game markets.
- Selling GTC allows an outlet for those who want to buy ISK to do so legally and in a way that benefits others thus taking away from the ISK sellers business."
Quote:
You really just dont seem to be able to understand very straight forward ideas. Even when REPEATEDLY explained to you.
FACTS: CCP did in fact release a blog listing all the harmful effects of isk buying. All of these negative effects exist regardless if CCP personally profits from said isk. Or if a 3rd party does therefore ccp is very well aware and agrees with me that being able to purchase in game power with out of game money IS UNFAIR AND HURTS THE GAME. The issue isn't whether CCP does or does not allow isk buying. Its that they allow isk buying while STRAIGHT UP SAYING IT HURTS THE GAME. Im sure you once again will be unable to understand this being a ****** and all. You are really bad at this.
So. CCP hates people buying ISK. They put a blog out about it. It "HURTS THE GAME". Fine. You have yet to explain to me why CCP not only permits but facilitates GTC sales for ISK. You are dodging that one. If CCP is so vehement on this issue and it is their game why allow GTC sales?
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sheis
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Posted - 2007.11.01 11:49:00 -
[56]
Quote:
So you honestly took away from what I wrote that I am totally divorced of any moral center and support ANYTHING, no matter how perverted or outright evil, as long as someone merely "wants" to do something or it will exist anyway?
Nope i took what you wrote to mean you have a very poor grasp of understanding for the topic and logic in general.
Quote:
- Selling GTC sees that CCP gets money. CCP gets no money from ISK sellers. In the end CCP is a business and making money is what they do and keeps the serves on for all of us.
Thats a benefit for CCP not for the game...idiot
Quote:
- Selling GTC is a service to other players. Many find the $15/month too much to spend for a game but being able to buy GTC with in-game currency allows them to continue playing.
A person can do this with selling isk on ebay. So the only thing this example provides is the security CCP provides (as i have already said)
Quote:
Selling GTC does not encourage the insane grinding that ISK sellers do who have 30 guys mining 23/7 which affects in-game markets.
Ummm this one is so stupid i dont know where to begin.
GTC's allows farmers to subsist 100% just by playing the game. GTC's not only allows more illegal farmers to function. It makes it an acceptable practice to many who otherwise would not dare. Would you sell isk if you knew it could get you banned? Also someone spending 1000$ on GTCs effects the market JUST LIKE ANY OTHER FORM OF ISK BUYING WOULD.
Quote:
- Selling GTC allows an outlet for those who want to buy ISK to do so legally and in a way that benefits others thus taking away from the ISK sellers business."
Incorrect if anything this makes "illegal" isk selling a far more viable thing since there is no out of pocket cost to have a farming operation. Its all funded with isk. It also makes isk buying an acceptable activity. This is also not an example of an added benefit hahaha. So let me get this straight the benefit of allowing isk to be bought is that uhhh isk is allowed to be bought...BRILLIANT really
Quote:
So. CCP hates people buying ISK. They put a blog out about it. It "HURTS THE GAME". Fine. You have yet to explain to me why CCP not only permits but facilitates GTC sales for ISK. You are dodging that one. If CCP is so vehement on this issue and it is their game why allow GTC sales?
hahah dodging that one? You really are a total moron. How in gods name can i explain the obviously conflicted and hypocritical stance of CCP. Thats sort of the point is that I CANT EXPLAIN IT. Their official stance is that isk sales/buying is a determent to their game. This is clearly stated. And then they allow said harmful activity to occur as long as THEY are receiving the profits. While im not certain id be willing to say they like to make money regardless if it harms their game.
Now why they take such a hypocritical and idiotic public stance on isk buying/selling while they allow it is beyond me. Also if you get caught buying isk you dont even get banned! You get a warning and the isk is removed. They don't even take a hardline stance on the people doing it illegal ffs.
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Scorpyn
Caldari
Infinitus Odium
The Church.
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Posted - 2007.11.01 11:55:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Scorpyn on 01/11/2007 11:56:31
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
So. CCP hates people buying ISK. They put a blog out about it. It "HURTS THE GAME". Fine. You have yet to explain to me why CCP not only permits but facilitates GTC sales for ISK. You are dodging that one. If CCP is so vehement on this issue and it is their game why allow GTC sales?
The question was not directed at me, but I'll answer anyway.
They do it because they want ppl to be able to but gtc:s with isk. That way, it's possible for more ppl to play the game, since it's possible to play without paying any rl money.
Whether ppl agree with that reason or not is another matter. I don't like it myself, since while it does solve one issue it creates lots of more and (imo) far worse issues.
2007-07-19 20:26
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.11.01 11:58:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Scorpyn
Whether ppl agree with that reason or not is another matter. I don't like it myself, since while it does solve one issue it creates lots of more and (imo) worse issues.
And therein lies the debate. Is the solution better or worse than the problem it seeks to address? While not ideal I go with CCP on this one but I certainly allow that it is not a perfect state of affairs.
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sheis
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Posted - 2007.11.01 12:05:00 -
[59]
Wait you see the solution to isk buy/selling to be isk/buying selling? 
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.11.01 12:41:00 -
[60]
Originally by: sheis
Wait you see the solution to isk buy/selling to be isk/buying selling?
I see GTC sales to be a good response to E-Bay sales. If the day comes where they can police it such that zero ISK sales via any means is possible then great. Till then I think CCP has made the best decision they can considering none of their choices are particularly good ones.
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