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Selling timecodes for ISK is the same as isk buying?

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Coronosphere	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:49:00 - [1] I read the report on illegal isk buying and the point given was that you shouldn't be able to buy your way to success while others less well off, strugle farming the isk. Well, I know timecodes is how I make my isk, but am beginning to wonder, should it still be legal? I mean, it's basically "buying isk". You buy timecode for úú, and sell for ISK You spend úú and get ISK, So, should it be legal?
Scorpyn Caldari Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:50:00 - [2] It should not be allowed imo. 2007-07-19 20:26
Mr Rourke	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:03:00 - [3] i'm indifferent as long as you can't resell codes and until some mega-rich person's kid decides to buy $75k in GTC and convert it into isk and build an alliance with it and take over all of 0.0 but i think that would take more than $75k in GTC
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:04:00 - [4] On the face of it yes, it is buying ISK. However the effect is not as bad. - Selling GTC sees that CCP gets money. CCP gets no money from ISK sellers. In the end CCP is a business and making money is what they do and keeps the serves on for all of us. - Selling GTC is a service to other players. Many find the $15/month too much to spend for a game but being able to buy GTC with in-game currency allows them to continue playing. - Selling GTC does not encourage the insane grinding that ISK sellers do who have 30 guys mining 23/7 which affects in-game markets. - Selling GTC allows an outlet for those who want to buy ISK to do so legally and in a way that benefits others thus taking away from the ISK sellers business. It is like Prohibition in the United States back in the 1920's. You can say it is "bad" and pass a law against it but in the end where there is a market someone will fill it. It resulted in massive organized crime. Eventually it was repealed because while some might still say drinking is "bad" making it illegal was worse. Making it legal at least affords some control over it and allows some benefits to be accrued to people other than the criminals. If there was some magical way to stop ISK selling completely and it was a perfect world fine but there isn't so this is the lesser of the evils.
JOSEPHx Caldari Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:08:00 - [5] Nothing is quite as satisfying as destroying something ingame that somebody spent cash to aquire. -
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:35:00 - [6] Originally by: JOSEPHx Nothing is quite as satisfying as destroying something ingame that somebody spent cash to aquire. - Depends on what is important to the person. Perhaps a player is independently wealthy and spends 90% of their waking moments working. When they play EVE they do not want to grind Veldspar. To them paying $50 for ISK is better than spending 20 hours of their gametime earning it. In other words...when you destroy someone in game you are either taking the time it took them to earn that ship or the cash they bought it with. Really up to the person who lost the ship to decide which is more valuable to them.
Gralg Merglen Minmatar Fusion Enterprises Ltd Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:53:00 - [7] you pay money for a sub to train a char, then you sell it. does this also = isk selling? Originally by: Graalum I can also confirm that the guristas pirates have a titan. We tried to kill it but unfortunately it mwded away at 5k/second and smacked us in local.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.10.29 18:00:00 - [8] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: JOSEPHx Nothing is quite as satisfying as destroying something ingame that somebody spent cash to aquire. - Depends on what is important to the person. Perhaps a player is independently wealthy and spends 90% of their waking moments working. When they play EVE they do not want to grind Veldspar. To them paying $50 for ISK is better than spending 20 hours of their gametime earning it. In other words...when you destroy someone in game you are either taking the time it took them to earn that ship or the cash they bought it with. Really up to the person who lost the ship to decide which is more valuable to them. Every time you teach others to not pay the ransom, YOU taking their ship away from them in the future Originally by: Liz Kali Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking I owned someone on forums!!!
lofty29 Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.29 18:20:00 - [9] Originally by: Mr Rourke but i think that would take more than $75k in GTC Thatd be about 1,275,000,000,000. 1 and a quarter trillion ISK. Not enough. --- Latest Video : FAT- Camp
Scorpyn Caldari Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.29 22:25:00 - [10] Edited by: Scorpyn on 29/10/2007 22:25:31 Originally by: Gralg Merglen you pay money for a sub to train a char, then you sell it. does this also = isk selling? Yes (although you'd be buying isk in this case, not selling it) 2007-07-19 20:26
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.10.29 22:33:00 - [11] You get much less isk for a dollar selling GTCs than you could buying it from a sweatshop farmer. Why? Because demand for GTCs is lower than demand for money. Players can only use so much gametime. ----- Visible Implants - good for so many occasions
Dao2SKP Shillelagh Corp.	Posted - 2007.10.29 23:59:00 - [12] CCP get's the $ instead of macrominers so they're happy And you can't make RL money off the game ;p
Zoopfury	Posted - 2007.10.30 00:41:00 - [13] I know of a particularly sad individual who spent ú10,000 on GTC's.... Some people need to get a life!
Jago Kain Amarr Ramm's RDI	Posted - 2007.10.30 00:44:00 - [14] Edited by: Jago Kain on 30/10/2007 00:46:09 As a resident of the downtrodden North of England, I have no irl money to speak of. I make a fair bit of ISK in game, one way or another, and I find it much easier on my irl wallet to buy GTCs to play a game where I fly imaginary spaceships, with imaginary money I have made from... erm... flying imaginary spaceships. The end result is that CCP gets whatever my subscription would cost me from someone else and he gets some ISK from me. I'm not sure if I'd still be playing if I was having to put my hand in my pocket every month for real cash. That would mean CCP would be down one sub every month. Largely, the main reason folk get upset is becasue they either lack the ISK to buy GTCs, and thus play for "free" like some of us do, or they lack the irl funds to buy GTCs to sell for ISK. It is the interests of CCP, myself and the guys I buy GTCs from for this state of affairs to continue. How likely is it to change do you think? ___________________________________________________ The game will never be over, because we're keeping the meme alive.
Caid Lemant Cunning Hats	Posted - 2007.10.30 00:46:00 - [15] Originally by: Zoopfury I know of a particularly sad individual who spent ú10,000 on GTC's.... Some people need to get a life! Sounds like the person involved either already has enough of a life to make that money, or has enough money to buy all the lives he needs. On the subject of the thread. I'm fine with GTC's... actually they're one of the things that set EVE apart for me. I pay by playing the game. -------- There is not enough love and goodness in the world for us to be permitted to give any of it away to imaginary things. Friedrich Nietzsche
Scorpyn Caldari Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.30 10:00:00 - [16] Originally by: Jago Kain Largely, the main reason folk get upset is because they either lack the ISK to buy GTCs, and thus play for "free" like some of us do, or they lack the irl funds to buy GTCs to sell for ISK. Nah, it's because it's cheating. RL should not matter when it comes to how much assets you have access to ingame. Originally by: Jago Kain How likely is it to change do you think? Very unlikely 2007-07-19 20:26
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.30 10:54:00 - [17] Originally by: Scorpyn Originally by: Jago Kain Largely, the main reason folk get upset is because they either lack the ISK to buy GTCs, and thus play for "free" like some of us do, or they lack the irl funds to buy GTCs to sell for ISK. Nah, it's because it's cheating. RL should not matter when it comes to how much assets you have access to ingame. Playing devil's advocate here... "Ah, so, you mean, just because I work 12 hours a day 6 days a week and earn 200k $ per year and I'm unable to play more than 4-5 hours of EVE per week, I shouldn't be able to have a lot of assets in-game, but that highschooler who can afford to play 12 hours a day 6 days a week but never worked a single day in his entire life should ?" _ 1\|2\|3
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.30 11:45:00 - [18] should be phased out asap..really..its giving so many people an unfair ingame advantage its mindboggling.
Scorpyn Caldari Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.30 11:49:00 - [19] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Scorpyn Originally by: Jago Kain Largely, the main reason folk get upset is because they either lack the ISK to buy GTCs, and thus play for "free" like some of us do, or they lack the irl funds to buy GTCs to sell for ISK. Nah, it's because it's cheating. RL should not matter when it comes to how much assets you have access to ingame. Playing devil's advocate here... "Ah, so, you mean, just because I work 12 hours a day 6 days a week and earn 200k $ per year and I'm unable to play more than 4-5 hours of EVE per week, I shouldn't be able to have a lot of assets in-game, but that highschooler who can afford to play 12 hours a day 6 days a week but never worked a single day in his entire life should ?" Pretty much, yes. It's impossible to make it 100% fair, but at least it'd be better that way. 2007-07-19 20:26
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:13:00 - [20] If it's impossible to make it 100% fair, why not leave it unfair in the way CCP gets more money out of ? _ 1\|2\|3
Scorpyn Caldari Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.30 13:40:00 - [21] Originally by: Akita T If it's impossible to make it 100% fair, why not leave it unfair in the way CCP gets more money out of ? Because I consider the ability to buy isk to be a problem, while having the time to play more is not a problem even though it makes it less than 100% fair. 2007-07-19 20:26
Daram Thakk'ar Minmatar 343rd Mining Division	Posted - 2007.10.30 13:57:00 - [22] Originally by: Zoopfury I know of a particularly sad individual who spent ú10,000 on GTC's.... Some people need to get a life! Revan Neferis?
benzss Templar Securities and Holdings Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.10.30 17:05:00 - [23] Originally by: Jago Kain Edited by: Jago Kain on 30/10/2007 00:49:37 Edited by: Jago Kain on 30/10/2007 00:46:09 As a resident of the downtrodden North of England, I have no irl money to speak of. Sorry, but... lmao
sheis	Posted - 2007.10.30 17:19:00 - [24] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Scorpyn Originally by: Jago Kain Largely, the main reason folk get upset is because they either lack the ISK to buy GTCs, and thus play for "free" like some of us do, or they lack the irl funds to buy GTCs to sell for ISK. Nah, it's because it's cheating. RL should not matter when it comes to how much assets you have access to ingame. Playing devil's advocate here... "Ah, so, you mean, just because I work 12 hours a day 6 days a week and earn 200k $ per year and I'm unable to play more than 4-5 hours of EVE per week, I shouldn't be able to have a lot of assets in-game, but that highschooler who can afford to play 12 hours a day 6 days a week but never worked a single day in his entire life should ?" Yes it means if you dont have the time to invest you dont receive the same rewards. Like every other activity in the world. Allowing isk/char buying in a game based on competition with others is dumb to say the least. Besides the fact it PROMOTES illegal isk farmers by allowing them to be 100% self sufficient just by playing the game. That said i have purchased GTC's with isk.
sheis	Posted - 2007.10.30 17:23:00 - [25] Originally by: Jago Kain Edited by: Jago Kain on 30/10/2007 00:49:37 Edited by: Jago Kain on 30/10/2007 00:46:09 As a resident of the downtrodden North of England, I have no irl money to speak of. I make a fair bit of ISK in game, one way or another, and I find it much easier on my irl wallet to buy GTCs to play a game where I fly imaginary spaceships, with imaginary money I have made from... erm... flying imaginary spaceships. The end result is that CCP gets whatever my subscription would cost me from someone else and he gets some ISK from me. I'm not sure if I'd still be playing if I was having to put my hand in my pocket every month for real cash. That would mean CCP would be down one sub every month. Largely, the main reason folk get upset is because they either lack the ISK to buy GTCs, and thus play for "free" like some of us do, or they lack the irl funds to buy GTCs to sell for ISK. It is in the interests of CCP, myself and the guys I buy GTCs from for this state of affairs to continue. How likely is it to change do you think? Yes naturally the only possible motivation for someone CHEATING in a game designed around competition within the game mechanics is jealousy. I mean why should i be expected to actually achieve things within the game when i can just buy them! Also i neither lack the funds IRL or lack the ISK in game. I support my playtime buy buying GTC's with isk. I still believe its absolutely moronic to be allowed.
Kayna Eelai Gallente GNATHIC	Posted - 2007.10.30 17:58:00 - [26] Originally by: Akita T "Ah, so, you mean, just because I work 12 hours a day 6 days a week and earn 200k $ per year and I'm unable to play more than 4-5 hours of EVE per week, I shouldn't be able to have a lot of assets in-game, but that highschooler who can afford to play 12 hours a day 6 days a week but never worked a single day in his entire life should ?" following your logic, some1 without any career, no experience and only working a couple of hours a day, should make 200k $ per year, just like you, right? fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.10.30 17:59:00 - [27] Originally by: Scorpyn Because I consider the ability to buy isk to be a problem, while having the time to play more is not a problem even though it makes it less than 100% fair. Well...to me this is an argument from idealism. In a perfect world this wouldn't happen but of course this is not a perfect world. Myself I prefer to take a more pragmatic view. As has been shown throughout human history if there is a demand someone will step up to meet that demand. As I mentioned before in the 1920's the US decided that alcohol was bad and outlawed it. All that did was give a huge boost to organized crime. Most everyone still had a bottle stashed somewhere. So too with ISK buying. Some people will want to buy it and no matter how much others rant and rave that it is wrong it will be there just the same. By allowing GTC selling CCP takes a more pragmatic view. Someone who can only play a few hours a week will not play if all they ever do is get a trickle of ISK. Then the guy who cannot afford to pay real cash for playing also is out. Now two people have left the game. With GTC selling CCP gets two subs and two people are able to have fun. That is also now people who have not gone to an ISK seller to buy ISK. In the end I guess you can argue the ideal or the reality. Me, I prefer reality.
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.10.30 20:05:00 - [28] Timecard trading is the ultimate balance for a game that is purely based on ones financal backing in terms of success. Those who don't have the money to buy ISK have the time to waste playing the game 10 - 12 - 16 hours a day to make the ISK, and those individuals who work at real jobs for a living can throw down $50.00 and still be viable against the no-lifes who ground their own ISK. All CCP's stamp on the process has provided is legitimacy and and false senses of security for the transactions. If CCP refused to get into timecard scams, I would foresee a sharp drop in its use as people turn to the "cheaper" ISK sellers for a better deal, sans security.
sheis	Posted - 2007.10.31 01:55:00 - [29] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Scorpyn Because I consider the ability to buy isk to be a problem, while having the time to play more is not a problem even though it makes it less than 100% fair. Well...to me this is an argument from idealism. In a perfect world this wouldn't happen but of course this is not a perfect world. Myself I prefer to take a more pragmatic view. As has been shown throughout human history if there is a demand someone will step up to meet that demand. As I mentioned before in the 1920's the US decided that alcohol was bad and outlawed it. All that did was give a huge boost to organized crime. Most everyone still had a bottle stashed somewhere. So too with ISK buying. Some people will want to buy it and no matter how much others rant and rave that it is wrong it will be there just the same. By allowing GTC selling CCP takes a more pragmatic view. Someone who can only play a few hours a week will not play if all they ever do is get a trickle of ISK. Then the guy who cannot afford to pay real cash for playing also is out. Now two people have left the game. With GTC selling CCP gets two subs and two people are able to have fun. That is also now people who have not gone to an ISK seller to buy ISK. In the end I guess you can argue the ideal or the reality. Me, I prefer reality. How brilliant so because people feel the need to cheat at a given activity it should be legitimate and supported as long as you profit from said activity. I like how you use prohibition as an example (rofl) and kind of ignore EVERY OTHER LAW IN HUMAN HISTORY. See rules exist for various reasons and in games between players the rules exist to create fair play. There is also a demand for 11 year old prostitutes we should totally stop the pointless struggle to moderate said demand! I mean this is reality they are gonna get those hookers somewhere! Might as well cash in! Dont let your silly IDEALS get in the way! But in REALITY when there is a consequence for a certain behavior people tend to not do said activity for fear of the repercussions. Allowing RMT farmers to pay for their accounts by said activity is stupid for any number of reasons. People will always break the law but when said law doesn't exist im sure you notice a slight increase in the behavior. How a mature adult with real world obligations doesn't understand why its not acceptable to cheat at a game is beyond me. Its horrible for the longevity of the any game. But for EVE its even worse.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.10.31 02:05:00 - [30] Originally by: Derovius Vaden Timecard trading is the ultimate balance for a game that is purely based on ones financal backing in terms of success. Those who don't have the money to buy ISK have the time to waste playing the game 10 - 12 - 16 hours a day to make the ISK, and those individuals who work at real jobs for a living can throw down $50.00 and still be viable against the no-lifes who ground their own ISK. All CCP's stamp on the process has provided is legitimacy and and false senses of security for the transactions. If CCP refused to get into timecard scams, I would foresee a sharp drop in its use as people turn to the "cheaper" ISK sellers for a better deal, sans security. you forgot the part about those guys that can play 12 hours a day can leech off the money guys and use in game isk to pay for game time. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP need...more room...

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