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achoura	Posted - 2007.10.30 16:12:00 - [31] Originally by: Jones Maloy Originally by: OwnedBy Me Originally by: Jones Maloy hi, i'd like to shift the attention back to why the stab nerf didn't accomplish much/anything Are u a slow person ? It did a lot.. People dont fit them on ships they pvp in, no more stab gangs.. That was what it was meant to do and it did.. Stop being a fukken r-tard so now we have nano gangs. is anything any different? the nerf was not meant to hurt pve and looting in low-sec, but it did. also avoiding word filters by slightly altering words is an exploit. Again you just don't get it. Haullers get stabs that's it. You don't fit them on ratting ships you don't fit them on pvp ships. Also so i would like to add if you need stabs for ratting in lowsec you haven't got a grasp on the game, you also have no idea what nano gangs are like compared to the 0.0 ones. I'm sorry you miss understood the intent but you no longer find cloaked stabbed snipers or stabbed gankers - it did exactly what it was supposed to you dont need stabs to rat.
Jones Maloy Minmatar Unified Naval Command	Posted - 2007.10.30 16:12:00 - [32] never played wow and don't plan to. or everquest, or diablo 2. those games eat me alive. adhd and video games don't go together very well. --- WCS Nerf yes i'm still angry
OwnedBy Me	Posted - 2007.10.30 16:14:00 - [33] Originally by: Jones Maloy never played wow and don't plan to. or everquest, or diablo 2. those games eat me alive. adhd and video games don't go together very well. So u wanna slit my throat ?
Orrelious The Umbrella Union Fleet	Posted - 2007.10.30 16:40:00 - [34] OP is like a Troll that doesn't know he's a Troll... Well really he's like a troll that doesn't know anything at all. Its almost comical.
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.10.30 17:04:00 - [35] Edited by: Gaven Blands on 30/10/2007 17:04:43 They used to say "If you fit to run, you've already lost" This was because you thought that your WCS or maybe your 2 WCS would save you. Problem with that was that one only required to devote an extra midslot from your own ship and the iRun coward died horribly. But devoting that one midslot was just too much to ask, and they cried nerf. And nerf they did. Now we have a whole new breed of iRun. No longer will devoting an extra midslot kill them. You actually need a whole ship. And at that it has to be a particular one out of a choice of about 3. And all 3 of them are highlighted as "Your Vagabond / NanoIshtar / NanoSacrilege / NanoCormorant / NanoCovetor will DIE here, iRun before you even engage". Notice how people no longer say "Fit to run and you've lost already"? Notice how when people say "counter a Vagabond" they no longer refer to killing it, just pressing iRun for them? The Pro Vaga camp know they have the weak side of the argument, which is why they twisted "counter" to no longer have anything to do with Vagabonds going pop to really cloud the situation. By way of illustration for clarity. PRO Vagabond argument. When "Counter" is defined as "Vagabond running". The number of "Counters" is a lot. Damps, ecms, neutralizers, webs, you name it. Lots of things work. ANTI Vagabond argument. When "Counter" is defined as "Vagabond dying". The number of "Counters" is a three. Plus or Minus Three. Huggin, Rapier, Curse (Big neuts). Since 2 of those can be seen coming a mile off, they are not "counters" in the ANTI argument. And since Big Neuts are not a 100% guarantee, then well, whatever. Yes and no. So you're left with 1, the Rapier. But you'd better not have a claymore near it. And since Eve players like things in black and white, I'm about to be bombarded with strawman arguments about how a maulus can single handedly hold off a faction fitted vagabond. None of which address the point of what I said. None of this matters. Frankly if you express an opinion on these forums, you're clearly a paedophile and must be killed. -- Awwwww Diddums! Did I wardec your highsec alt recently or something?
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.10.30 17:42:00 - [36] Excellent post Gaven, with exception of that last line which I believe is little over the top and inflammatory. Though don't keep in mind it's not just the Vagabonds doing this.
Jones Maloy Minmatar Unified Naval Command	Posted - 2007.10.30 18:00:00 - [37] this is starting to sound like a 4chan thread. fine, i just won't go into low-sec since the only counter to scrams is an entire ship not suited for pve. the stuff there is not worth going to get it (currently) two frigs with 2 scram each can lock nearly anything in the game down unless it devotes 8 lows to stabs. the targeting range would be reduced to (calculator.........double checks because it can't be that bad, right? no it really is that bad) .00390625 of normal, aka 0.4% of normal range. and one more noobship with a scram can even lock that down. scramblers and wcs are unballanced when a wcs uses about 30tf and 1mw making your ship totaly worthless in pvp but safe(er). wherever did they get the idea that .5 range multiplier was even close to reasonable? you would need to fit the same number of sensor boosters as wcs. so 8 sensor boosters 10tf and 1mw (yes 8mid and 8low is impossible) and 8 wcs would be using up all your meds and lows, 16mw, 320tf and 8 cap/sec. one player sacrificis any type of tank and all hope of killing another player ship. and on the other side three frigs or any ship with 5 mids sacrifice 5 mid slots to overide that. stab ship 8- , 8-- 16mw, 320tf 8cap/sec vs scram fit 5-- 5mw, 150tf 5 cap/sec ------------------- is that balance? how about this? ------------------- stab ship 8- 8mw, 160tf 0 cap/sec vs scram fit 5-- 5mw, 150tf 5 cap/sec might that be better? i don't know, honest, i need help figuring out what should be the reasonable tradeoff for an added amount of safety. i don't think the first example is. is there any way of getting the disired effect without unwanted side affects? </rant> --- WCS Nerf yes i'm still angry
Vitrael Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.10.30 18:04:00 - [38] Stop whining about the Vagabond. You all act like it's completely invincible and a DPS monster. Fact of the matter is when it's actually hitting you, it's MWD is off, which means it's probably going well under 1km/s in orbit and has a large sig as HACs go (shield extenders). While it's damaging you it can easily be smashed apart by missiles, drones, and medium turrets, and it can be completely ineffectualized by 1 tracking disruptor, 2 damps, or a bit of ECM. Next note, a max skills vaga pilot with 220mm IIs and barrage and two gyrostabilizers (probably the most you will ever see) does a whopping 347 dps. 347 dps? Ouch! That's almost as damaging as a newbie thorax! Oh wait, but the vaga is actually fighting near the top of his falloff and is probably doing something closer to 200 actually dps as a result. Furthermore its almost all explosive. Scary, huh? What? You still think the Vaga is hugely overpowered? Oh, because you can't kill it? Well ** me with a garden hose! We'd better nerf POSes for reinforced mode and pods for their instawarp then! Vagabonds in orbit can be in 2 states: 1. MWD off, dealing damage. Easy to kill. 2. MWD on, not dealing damage. Nigh impossible to kill. If state 2 is overpowered then you're just a petty whiner who wants a HAC killmail. The ship is fast. It was meant to be fast. GET OVER IT**. ___________ I learned to accept ship changes months ago. Suddenly I enjoy Eve. You should try it some time.
OwnedBy Me	Posted - 2007.10.30 18:05:00 - [39] Edited by: OwnedBy Me on 30/10/2007 18:05:05 Originally by: Jones Maloy A LOT MORE RAMDON RABLLE get some friends learn to play or Leave eve Play wow with the gold farmers
Jones Maloy Minmatar Unified Naval Command	Posted - 2007.10.30 18:26:00 - [40] those are some great ideas about wcs guys!!!! thread is about wcs nerf not "the ship that must not be named" please stay with it and post constructivly or don't post. i have no problem with "tstmnbn" i'm going to love flying one. for further info read op and other posts. sorry about the vilont one, my temper is not that good and i've got some issues that i'm trying to forget. no, i don't need another wow comment sheeesh. --- WCS Nerf yes i'm still angry
Leya Marcsson	Posted - 2007.10.30 18:37:00 - [41] Huh, bad vibes here you all should get laid or do some other kind (pysical) sport. Actual that Maloyguy sounds far less whiny than all the Vegagals accuse him to be whiny. Funny. Seems the vega draw the attention of a very special kind of players - somehow guess its the same kind bunny hopping in FPS or regulary getting aggro on TS because here mother/here wife want them to take care about the trash/the kids. Tho I also think vegas are't that overpowered. Perhabs a little bit too fast, but nothing I would change radicaly. And actualy I like the WCS nerf. sigh like every time I seem to sit between the chairs dont like the bark of the dogs but love meat :D
Bardi MecAuldnis Amarr Heretic Army Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.30 19:11:00 - [42] Lived in lowsec from day 1. Most deaths came as a result of poor planning (be it not paying attention, not running when I should have, not thinking before engaging), few have been from being outsmarted. Basically, disengage WCS, engage brain housing group. Your ship will live a lot longer if it is fit to live. The rest, is up to you. Watch local, use scanner, blah blah blah... There is no such thing as (and hopefully never will be) perfect safety in EVE. EVE is as safe as you make it. WCS will not save you, nanos will not save you. If you can't hack it in lowsec yet, stay out of lowsec. If you can't hack it in EVE, stay out of EVE. There will always be people who will find a way to engage on their own terms. That's how you win a fight. Did I miss any responses? Oh and ADD works beautifully with games --- Amarr/Caldari, and proud of it. Hey hey let's go kenka suru! Taisetsuna mono protect my balls! Boku ga warui so lets fighting! LET'S FIGHTING LOVE!!!
Baaldor Caldari Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.30 20:16:00 - [43] Originally by: Jones Maloy those are some great ideas about wcs guys!!!! thread is about wcs nerf not "the ship that must not be named" please stay with it and post constructivly or don't post. i have no problem with "tstmnbn" i'm going to love flying one. for further info read op and other posts. sorry about the vilont one, my temper is not that good and i've got some issues that i'm trying to forget. no, i don't need another wow comment sheeesh. Stabs on a pvp ship gave some players the belief that it was the I win button. They can warp in pick a fight get a couple of kills and escape. Tiller would use this trick exclusively on his smart bombing battle ship or his sniper. It became an imbalance, and the damage it was doing to game play far out weighed the inconvenience of slow targeting and reduced range others would experience. Stabs were looked at as defensive mods that helped get you out of trouble. It aided in escape. So the pilot had to weigh his options...ability to escape or tactical advantage.But the nerf was done for the benefit of the majority of the community not just for a few. You can not have a nerf that has no side effects. It is impossible, someone somewhere likes it how it was. I have endured a lot of these changes in the past and it is all about adapting. I am not happy with half of the nerfs CCP has done, but I have to roll with the punches because it is what it is. I have to learn to work with what I am given and try to be successful. Its part of the game. *SIDE NOTE:I am sorry but the Vagabond is fun to mess with. 6000ms per second is not all that fast. Plus beyond 3000ms they are just high speed kites. With Vaga's you have to play a waiting game and have some patience. I don't fly them but I hope they never change them. THE PREVIOUS VIEWS AND STATEMENTS DO NOT REPRESENT AND OR SUPPORTED BY THE MANY VOICES IN MY HEAD.
Nyc	Posted - 2007.10.30 20:29:00 - [44] Finally, Minmatar's speed means something and people want to nerf it. Go figure.
Gort Storm Guard Elite	Posted - 2007.10.30 21:04:00 - [45] Originally by: Jones Maloy i've never encountered a nanobond before as i never go into low sec. nerfing stabs didn't do enough so maybe that wasn't the right move. to fix a problem you can make slight tweaks or a huge overhaul. i've found that most things in-between don't work very well. my issue is that nerfing stabs was not the way to fix the problem and had many undisireable side effects. therefore, un-nerf stabs and do something to fix the problem while not affecting anything else. If the overall problem you describe is that a ship managed to get away from you, then I don't think there is a problem. I think a problem would be if Eve were designed such that no ship could ever disengage. Plenty of Vagas go down in flames on a daily basis, as do other fast ships. I do personally think that there are too many speed mods in the game, which leads to silly results when they are all added together. But this is true for many ships, and is a result of mod-spamming, and insufficient stacking penalties, in my own opinion, not a particular ship's design or specs. Regards, Gort Gort -- When in doubt, empty the magazine.
Spaced Skunk D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.30 21:16:00 - [46] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Last Wolf Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: mallina an oversized Interceptor. And you dont see how this is so wrong in so many ways? Its the same deal with the nano domis. They got nerfed. Why? Because something that big going that fast and having too much dps for its speed is imbalanced. Vagas will get nerfed some day. Don't fly in a straight line? Hell even a sieged dread will pop you if you do that. I think you two are missing the point. 1. Vagas cap is weak and can be neuted easy, which means anything with a MWD will catch it 2. It doesnt do good dps 3. It is meant to be fast How is the dps of a Vaga good? Its tripe tbh. To Spawny, a great guy, a great laugh. Rest in peace buddy.
Mr Ignitious Gallente Kingpins	Posted - 2007.10.30 21:21:00 - [47] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: mallina an oversized Interceptor. And you dont see how this is so wrong in so many ways? Its the same deal with the nano domis. They got nerfed. Why? Because something that big going that fast and having too much dps for its speed is imbalanced. Vagas will get nerfed some day. problem with this, a nano domi isn't using its guns to rip you apart, those heavy drones are, which arent affected by your speed, only if that they can catch up to their target. your never ever ever going to see a vaga launching 5 heavy drones...
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.30 21:28:00 - [48] stabs were nerfed for a reason: they were defensive modules that were more suited for traveling, but were used abusevly in combat. by abusevly I mean 7 wcs domis that were nigh impossible to catch. tbh it was a good change. the nano-nerf came later and effectively nerfed ships that weren't supposed to speed tank, or speed tanked excessively. tbh it was a good change. now you want to nerf speed tanking ships EVEN MORE, just because if they can't beat you, they run? Oy news flash: you made the guy run, you won the fight. so he lives another day. big deal. you beaten him once, you can beat him again. plus speed tanked ships usually have not that much firepower and even less tank. Heck, I've seen a group of 5(?) battle haulers KILL a vagabond. --- planetary interaction idea!
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.10.30 23:06:00 - [49] Originally by: Grimpak now you want to nerf speed tanking ships EVEN MORE, just because if they can't beat you, they run? Oy news flash: you made the guy run, you won the fight. so he lives another day. big deal. you beaten him once, you can beat him again. A sensible point of view for a merc but not for someone who has an enemy speed gang roaming through their territory.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.30 23:15:00 - [50] Edited by: Grimpak on 30/10/2007 23:17:07 Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: Grimpak now you want to nerf speed tanking ships EVEN MORE, just because if they can't beat you, they run? Oy news flash: you made the guy run, you won the fight. so he lives another day. big deal. you beaten him once, you can beat him again. A sensible point of view for a merc but not for someone who has an enemy speed gang roaming through their territory. then gather friends. bring heavier ships. scare them away from your territory. there are tools ingame that can stop dead, or reduce a nano gang to zero effectiveness. as long as you keep in mind that nano-ships sacrifice allot just to stay mobile (tank and firepower), and you take advantage from the flaws they have, then you win. oh and while I am a merc now, I do had my share of fast roaming gangs in my ASCN days. honest, it's not that hard to stop them. --- planetary interaction idea!
Apollyonn Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.10.31 00:06:00 - [51] Quit whining about the vag. Its an easy to kill ship if you know how. The fact that it is a hit and run ship is the niche it fills. If you have a problem with that, you fit stabs and run away. If you know what you are doing, you wont get caught by them. If you do get caught, and you can't take them out, then they were better pilots than you. Get over it, remember its a game, and would everyone just STFU about nerfing everything? CCP is perfectly good at nerfing without all you whiners asking for more. It seems like people wont be happy until we are all flying the same ship, with the same stats, same weapons, and everyone is happily equal and pathetic. If you can't beat someone, get better. If you still can't beat them, don't fight them. Its very easy to avoid a fight. If you don't like what I said, too bad. It needed to be said by someone. I read these forums plenty and all I ever seem to see are people whining about how overpowered one ship is and they can't beat it. Suck it up and learn a way how. This is a very balanced game where everyone is just as vulnerable as everyone else. All ships fit a niche. Not all ships are equal in DPS, speed, or tanking. Thats the nature of the beast. Not everything can be equal or everything would suck. If you want to reply to this and want me to see this, send me an evemail ingame because I wont check this again. If you liked this little rant, send me 1mil. If you didn't like this rant, go cry and then send me 1mil. Cheers. My opinions are my own and do not reflect those of my corporation or alliance. (But I'm sure they would agree....)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.31 00:24:00 - [52] Originally by: Arvald Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: mallina an oversized Interceptor. And you dont see how this is so wrong in so many ways? Its the same deal with the nano domis. They got nerfed. Why? Because something that big going that fast and having too much dps for its speed is imbalanced. Vagas will get nerfed some day. well then i guess we should be glad that their not that big and dont ahve taht much dps then eh? If you fly as fast as an interceptor, or even faster, you should have interceptor dps. Does a vaga have inty dps? No. Imba. WTb nerf bat.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.31 00:29:00 - [53] Originally by: Gaven Blands Edited by: Gaven Blands on 30/10/2007 17:04:43 They used to say "If you fit to run, you've already lost" This was because you thought that your WCS or maybe your 2 WCS would save you. Problem with that was that one only required to devote an extra midslot from your own ship and the iRun coward died horribly. But devoting that one midslot was just too much to ask, and they cried nerf. And nerf they did. Now we have a whole new breed of iRun. No longer will devoting an extra midslot kill them. You actually need a whole ship. And at that it has to be a particular one out of a choice of about 3. And all 3 of them are highlighted as "Your Vagabond / NanoIshtar / NanoSacrilege / NanoCormorant / NanoCovetor will DIE here, iRun before you even engage". Notice how people no longer say "Fit to run and you've lost already"? Notice how when people say "counter a Vagabond" they no longer refer to killing it, just pressing iRun for them? The Pro Vaga camp know they have the weak side of the argument, which is why they twisted "counter" to no longer have anything to do with Vagabonds going pop to really cloud the situation. By way of illustration for clarity. PRO Vagabond argument. When "Counter" is defined as "Vagabond running". The number of "Counters" is a lot. Damps, ecms, neutralizers, webs, you name it. Lots of things work. ANTI Vagabond argument. When "Counter" is defined as "Vagabond dying". The number of "Counters" is a three. Plus or Minus Three. Huggin, Rapier, Curse (Big neuts). Since 2 of those can be seen coming a mile off, they are not "counters" in the ANTI argument. And since Big Neuts are not a 100% guarantee, then well, whatever. Yes and no. So you're left with 1, the Rapier. But you'd better not have a claymore near it. And since Eve players like things in black and white, I'm about to be bombarded with strawman arguments about how a maulus can single handedly hold off a faction fitted vagabond. None of which address the point of what I said. None of this matters. Frankly if you express an opinion on these forums, you're clearly a paedophile and must be killed. QFT. They know its overpowered they just want to keep their ubership so they put up a show filled with alot of mumbo jumbo mixed with lies, twisted facts, unrealistic situations and alot of flaming to throw you off track.
Sharupak Minmatar Knights Of the Black Sun Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.10.31 00:53:00 - [54] Originally by: Jones Maloy Edited by: Jones Maloy on 30/10/2007 14:21:23 the problem is: some ships and setups can achieve the i-win-or-i-run button. ccp's solution: nerf stabs. effect: ships now speed tank to escape from undisirable fights and are still able to take out normalily equiped ships. while mission runners and ratters can no longer target at a decent range while at the same time being safe from scrams. new problem: some ships and setups can achieve the i-win-or-i-run button. solution: un-nerf stabs and _______________ to fix the problem. any suggestions? <edit> i just noticed that the stababond has turned into the nanobond. maybe the ship is the problem? </edit> Its not a problem. It had been established in about 100 threads on this subject on the 7 to 10 various ways to beat nanoships. _______________________________________________ RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.31 01:01:00 - [55] Originally by: Sharupak Originally by: Jones Maloy Edited by: Jones Maloy on 30/10/2007 14:21:23 the problem is: some ships and setups can achieve the i-win-or-i-run button. ccp's solution: nerf stabs. effect: ships now speed tank to escape from undisirable fights and are still able to take out normalily equiped ships. while mission runners and ratters can no longer target at a decent range while at the same time being safe from scrams. new problem: some ships and setups can achieve the i-win-or-i-run button. solution: un-nerf stabs and _______________ to fix the problem. any suggestions? <edit> i just noticed that the stababond has turned into the nanobond. maybe the ship is the problem? </edit> Its not a problem. It had been established in about 100 threads on this subject on the 7 to 10 various ways to beat nanoships. No those are 7-10 various ways of: -not dying to a nanoship -forcing it to flee -disrupting it in other ways 1 and half of those is how to kill it -get a faster and better nano to kill it -get a rapier Unacceptable, the same reason nano domi was nerfed. Nerf bat coming vagas way someday youll see.
Shardrael Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.10.31 01:17:00 - [56] Originally by: Grimpak stabs were nerfed for a reason: they were defensive modules that were more suited for traveling, but were used abusevly in combat. by abusevly I mean 7 wcs domis that were nigh impossible to catch. tbh it was a good change. the nano-nerf came later and effectively nerfed ships that weren't supposed to speed tank, or speed tanked excessively. tbh it was a good change. now you want to nerf speed tanking ships EVEN MORE, just because if they can't beat you, they run? Oy news flash: you made the guy run, you won the fight. so he lives another day. big deal. you beaten him once, you can beat him again. plus speed tanked ships usually have not that much firepower and even less tank. Heck, I've seen a group of 5(?) battle haulers KILL a vagabond. case and point tbo. I fly vagas, I also fly all the ships that murder vagas and tbo when I am sitting in my homestation their are a great deal ships I fear more then the vaga.... and to top it off there is a frigate sized version of the hugin coming out that will pwn vagas hard, furthermore overloading webs is enough to get one if he decides to commit to you. they really arent that hard to deal with and if you guys cant figure out how to you need to seriously look at what you dont know about the game and try to learn it.
Khornne	Posted - 2007.10.31 04:22:00 - [57] I can't help but notice, it seems that all the big powerful (REALLY HEAVY PVP) alliances represented here (IRON, Goon, Tri, KIA, etc.) seem to like the vaga. They are not saying they like it because it is an OMGBBQPWNG nano boat, but they like it because it is BALANCED! Likewise for the WCSs. Maybe the people who like the vaga the way it is are better than you, maybe they are just smarter. Either way, they are right and this is all well balanced and should not be fooled with.
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.10.31 04:30:00 - [58] Originally by: Khornne I can't help but notice, it seems that all the big powerful (REALLY HEAVY PVP) alliances represented here (IRON, Goon, Tri, KIA, etc.) seem to like the vaga. This may have something to do with the fact that groups of this size have no problem gathering pilots with the required skills and kit to dispose of them. Even with limited counters when you have several hundred people to call on chances our someone has it set-up in a hangar somewhere.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.31 05:13:00 - [59] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: Khornne I can't help but notice, it seems that all the big powerful (REALLY HEAVY PVP) alliances represented here (IRON, Goon, Tri, KIA, etc.) seem to like the vaga. This may have something to do with the fact that groups of this size have no problem gathering pilots with the required skills and kit to dispose of them. Even with limited counters when you have several hundred people to call on chances our someone has it set-up in a hangar somewhere. Last time I checked KIA was at like a couple hundred members. It has nothing to do with numbers and everything to do with your skill as a pvper. Like 1/4 of tri can fly a rapier for example(we're minmatar heavy as an alliance). signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.31 05:16:00 - [60] To the OP, I'm not ashamed to admit I fit a single wcs(best named) on my ratting raven. It doesnt really diminish its ratting ability any(5 extra seconds to lock, big deal), and most people only fit 1 point anyways. Although I've never actually had to use the stab since anybody with a brain pays attention to local/align while ratting. signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])

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