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Jones Maloy Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.30 14:19:00 - [1] Edited by: Jones Maloy on 30/10/2007 14:21:23 the problem is: some ships and setups can achieve the i-win-or-i-run button. ccp's solution: nerf stabs. effect: ships now speed tank to escape from undisirable fights and are still able to take out normalily equiped ships. while mission runners and ratters can no longer target at a decent range while at the same time being safe from scrams. new problem: some ships and setups can achieve the i-win-or-i-run button. solution: un-nerf stabs and _______________ to fix the problem. any suggestions? <edit> i just noticed that the stababond has turned into the nanobond. maybe the ship is the problem? </edit>
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.30 14:22:00 - [2] Originally by: Jones Maloy Edited by: Jones Maloy on 30/10/2007 14:21:23 the problem is: some ships and setups can achieve the i-win-or-i-run button. ccp's solution: nerf stabs. effect: ships now speed tank to escape from undisirable fights and are still able to take out normalily equiped ships. while mission runners and ratters can no longer target at a decent range while at the same time being safe from scrams. new problem: some ships and setups can achieve the i-win-or-i-run button. solution: un-nerf stabs and _______________ to fix the problem. any suggestions? <edit> i just noticed that the stababond has turned into the nanobond. maybe the ship is the problem? </edit> Nerf vagabond.
Arvald Caldari House of Tempers	Posted - 2007.10.30 14:25:00 - [3] Edited by: Arvald on 30/10/2007 14:24:57 Originally by: Jones Maloy Edited by: Jones Maloy on 30/10/2007 14:21:23 the problem is: some ships and setups can achieve the i-win-or-i-run button. ccp's solution: nerf stabs. effect: ships now speed tank to escape from undisirable fights and are still able to take out normalily equiped ships. while mission runners and ratters can no longer target at a decent range while at the same time being safe from scrams. new problem: some ships and setups can achieve the i-win-or-i-run button. solution: un-nerf stabs and _______________ to fix the problem. any suggestions? <edit> i just noticed that the stababond has turned into the nanobond. maybe the ship is the problem? </edit> ...you do relize that prety much every nano ship if its going so fast that not even prisicion missle will hit it, that it cant hit you with guns.....right? --------------------------- Originally by: eddie valvetino little small voice in the back of my head i've ignored all summer now screams "BLOW SOMETHING UP!!!!!!!!! M***R FCKER!!!!!!"
William DeMeo Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.10.30 14:33:00 - [4] Originally by: Jones Maloy Edited by: Jones Maloy on 30/10/2007 14:21:23 the problem is: some ships and setups can achieve the i-win-or-i-run button. ccp's solution: nerf stabs. effect: ships now speed tank to escape from undisirable fights and are still able to take out normalily equiped ships. while mission runners and ratters can no longer target at a decent range while at the same time being safe from scrams. new problem: some ships and setups can achieve the i-win-or-i-run button. solution: un-nerf stabs and _______________ to fix the problem. any suggestions? <edit> i just noticed that the stababond has turned into the nanobond. maybe the ship is the problem? </edit> The speed bonus + the description on the vaga might be an indication it's supposed to go fast . Solution? Stop sucking. And stabs suck. Yarr
OwnedBy Me	Posted - 2007.10.30 14:39:00 - [5] Edited by: OwnedBy Me on 30/10/2007 14:40:06 More whines on the forums.. The vaga will never kill u if u have a brain and use it... It will kill you if ur ratting in a belt or if ur at a planet.. If u warp to the station u mwd to it and dock, same with a gate.. If u jump in and there is a vaga, go to the gate if he agros u jump back.. If he doesnt u align and warp to the next gate.. They dont have webs dude, and if they do and go into ur web range they are dead.. Now if you cant kill it in ur gang you might just not be because its overpowered, it might be ur gang that sucks/wrong fittings...
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.30 14:42:00 - [6] Originally by: OwnedBy Me Edited by: OwnedBy Me on 30/10/2007 14:40:06 More whines on the forums.. The vaga will never kill u if u have a brain and use it... It will kill you if ur ratting in a belt or if ur at a planet.. If u warp to the station u mwd to it and dock, same with a gate.. If u jump in and there is a vaga, go to the gate if he agros u jump back.. If he doesnt u align and warp to the next gate.. They dont have webs dude, and if they do and go into ur web range they are dead.. Now if you cant kill it in ur gang you might just not be because its overpowered, it might be ur gang that sucks/wrong fittings... Something feels terribly wrong when a vaga bond catches my 7+km/s crusader and kills it without webs. They should be fast but not friggin interceptor fast. Its imbalanced and you know it.
mallina Caldari Core Contingency	Posted - 2007.10.30 14:45:00 - [7] Vagabond is incredibly ineffective against anyone with a clue. It can run away a lot and sometimes kill NPCers, but is otherwise just an oversized Interceptor. It's a great ship for people who care about nothing but their ubar K/D ratio, but generally nothing more than an annoyance compared to actual combat ships. ---
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.30 14:47:00 - [8] Originally by: mallina an oversized Interceptor. And you dont see how this is so wrong in so many ways? Its the same deal with the nano domis. They got nerfed. Why? Because something that big going that fast and having too much dps for its speed is imbalanced. Vagas will get nerfed some day.
OwnedBy Me	Posted - 2007.10.30 14:48:00 - [9] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: OwnedBy Me Edited by: OwnedBy Me on 30/10/2007 14:40:06 More whines on the forums.. The vaga will never kill u if u have a brain and use it... It will kill you if ur ratting in a belt or if ur at a planet.. If u warp to the station u mwd to it and dock, same with a gate.. If u jump in and there is a vaga, go to the gate if he agros u jump back.. If he doesnt u align and warp to the next gate.. They dont have webs dude, and if they do and go into ur web range they are dead.. Now if you cant kill it in ur gang you might just not be because its overpowered, it might be ur gang that sucks/wrong fittings... Something feels terribly wrong when a vaga bond catches my 7+km/s crusader and kills it without webs. They should be fast but not friggin interceptor fast. Its imbalanced and you know it. If you used a snake implant set u might just have been going a bit faster then the vaga ?... U should be going fast with implants and what not.. And dont just run away in a straigt line.. That will get u killed by even a large gun.. lulz
Last Wolf Templars of Space	Posted - 2007.10.30 14:51:00 - [10] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: mallina an oversized Interceptor. And you dont see how this is so wrong in so many ways? Its the same deal with the nano domis. They got nerfed. Why? Because something that big going that fast and having too much dps for its speed is imbalanced. Vagas will get nerfed some day. Don't fly in a straight line? Hell even a sieged dread will pop you if you do that.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.30 14:53:00 - [11] Originally by: Last Wolf Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: mallina an oversized Interceptor. And you dont see how this is so wrong in so many ways? Its the same deal with the nano domis. They got nerfed. Why? Because something that big going that fast and having too much dps for its speed is imbalanced. Vagas will get nerfed some day. Don't fly in a straight line? Hell even a sieged dread will pop you if you do that. I think you two are missing the point.
Jones Maloy Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.30 14:53:00 - [12] i've never encountered a nanobond before as i never go into low sec. nerfing stabs didn't do enough so maybe that wasn't the right move. to fix a problem you can make slight tweaks or a huge overhaul. i've found that most things in-between don't work very well. my issue is that nerfing stabs was not the way to fix the problem and had many undisireable side effects. therefore, un-nerf stabs and do something to fix the problem while not affecting anything else. --- WCS Nerf boycott low-sec
OwnedBy Me	Posted - 2007.10.30 14:55:00 - [13] Originally by: Jones Maloy Hr. i havent see a vagabond but lets change it right now, i hate having a longer lock time when i fit stabs on my Caldari Navy Raven I see what u did there
Arvald Caldari House of Tempers	Posted - 2007.10.30 14:56:00 - [14] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: mallina an oversized Interceptor. And you dont see how this is so wrong in so many ways? Its the same deal with the nano domis. They got nerfed. Why? Because something that big going that fast and having too much dps for its speed is imbalanced. Vagas will get nerfed some day. well then i guess we should be glad that their not that big and dont ahve taht much dps then eh? --------------------------- Originally by: eddie valvetino little small voice in the back of my head i've ignored all summer now screams "BLOW SOMETHING UP!!!!!!!!! M***R FCKER!!!!!!"
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.10.30 15:00:00 - [15] Originally by: Jones Maloy the problem is: some ships and setups can achieve the i-win-or-i-run button. You stoled my wordz! Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf [29/10/2007] A speed tank should be a viable tactic, reducing damage in a manner comparable to a standard tank while providing added mobility and range dictation, but it should not an I-win-or-I-run button.
Jones Maloy Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.30 15:05:00 - [16] Originally by: OwnedBy Me Originally by: Jones Maloy quote stealing and editing is rude I see what u did there huh? i fly a pve destroyer. my account was inactive for two years. they also reduce lock range by a .50 modifier. fitting two to counter one scram would reduce your targeting range to 25% of what it would be otherwise. the point of this thread is that the stab nerf did not fix anything and should be undone --- WCS Nerf boycott low-sec
achoura	Posted - 2007.10.30 15:07:00 - [17] Originally by: Jones Maloy i've never encountered a nanobond before as i never go into low sec. nerfing stabs didn't do enough so maybe that wasn't the right move. to fix a problem you can make slight tweaks or a huge overhaul. i've found that most things in-between don't work very well. my issue is that nerfing stabs was not the way to fix the problem and had many undisireable side effects. therefore, un-nerf stabs and do something to fix the problem while not affecting anything else. You just don't understand - this is exactly what the vaga was designed to do. That is it's role. What you also do not understand is that pre stab nerf you hardly ever saw nanoed vagas they were all slow and stabbed because the bulk of the pilots were inexperienced and phobic about loosing that hac that cost them 200 mil + fittings (when tii mods weren't cheap). What they always failed to understand was a vagas strength is speed which has always been a more effective tactic than stabbing. The final thing you do not understand is fitting stabs on a pvp ship is a complete waste of a slot or, more to the point, the ship and pilot are not fit for the task. If you're going into a fight you don't plan on winning you shouldn't be there and that's all stabs are good for so no they're good the way you are. In eve if you gain something someplace you loose something someplace else, in stabs case someplace haullers arn't effected. The only reason for someone to want stabs the way they were is so they can go pick fights then run when they're loosing. Improve your piloting skills before blaming gms and modules.
Alowishus Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.30 15:10:00 - [18] I-win-or-I-run is what a good PvPer does. Fact of life. CCP will fix the Vagabond when they are cheap enough, and plentiful enough, that everyone uses them because they're the defacto I-win ship. But don't expect that to happen because last I checked these are pretty expensive and hard to find. Which means the problem is not big enough for anyone, other than the few who have been killed by one, to notice. FWIW: I've never been killed by a Vagabond. But if you really believe it's this huge problem, the solution I am offering up is 10,000m/s webifying missiles.
Cheif Wongmarainer	Posted - 2007.10.30 15:14:00 - [19] Edited by: Cheif Wongmarainer on 30/10/2007 15:16:48 Edited by: Cheif Wongmarainer on 30/10/2007 15:15:40 Originally by: achoura Originally by: Jones Maloy i've never encountered a nanobond before as i never go into low sec. nerfing stabs didn't do enough so maybe that wasn't the right move. to fix a problem you can make slight tweaks or a huge overhaul. i've found that most things in-between don't work very well. my issue is that nerfing stabs was not the way to fix the problem and had many undisireable side effects. therefore, un-nerf stabs and do something to fix the problem while not affecting anything else. You just don't understand - this is exactly what the vaga was designed to do. That is it's role. What you also do not understand is that pre stab nerf you hardly ever saw nanoed vagas they were all slow and stabbed because the bulk of the pilots were inexperienced and phobic about loosing that hac that cost them 200 mil + fittings (when tii mods weren't cheap). What they always failed to understand was a vagas strength is speed which has always been a more effective tactic than stabbing. The final thing you do not understand is fitting stabs on a pvp ship is a complete waste of a slot or, more to the point, the ship and pilot are not fit for the task. If you're going into a fight you don't plan on winning you shouldn't be there and that's all stabs are good for so no they're good the way you are. In eve if you gain something someplace you loose something someplace else, in stabs case someplace haullers arn't effected. The only reason for someone to want stabs the way they were is so they can go pick fights then run when they're loosing. Improve your piloting skills before blaming gms and modules. i use pve setups and i want to be able to trade low-slots for the ability to warp away if somone tries to kill me. with the .5 modifier to max targeting range i can't fit any and still be effective at ratting or mission running. and the nerf does affect indys. they have to lock targets to use the tractor beam. if vagabonds are fine then un-nerf stabs because what was the point of nerfing them anyway if people can still get the same result using a different setup? also i doubt my destroyer could tank a t2 cruiser. <god damn alt is always set as default poster. please fix it to select the last poster as the default--jonesy>
Alowishus Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.30 15:23:00 - [20] Stabs were nerfed because of Vagabonds? I always thought it was Ravens.
mallina Caldari Core Contingency	Posted - 2007.10.30 15:25:00 - [21] whether Vaga or speed-setups in general are overpowered or not is another matter entirely. The fact is, people will do anything to minimize the risks and give them some chance of surviving if things go bad. This may include: Stabs Ludicrous Speed Damping Target Jamming ECM Drones ECM Burst Nerfing insane speedsetups is fine and all, but the potential FOTM after that (ECM+ECM Drones, which are stupendously effective compared to standard combat drones) dosen't sound too appealing, either. I would hope CCP were smart about what they did, if anything. Last thing we want is another Jamfest. ---
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.30 15:31:00 - [22] I've never been killed by a Vaga, but I've killed a few (and made more than a few run). Stop with all the damn "nerf this" whines. Get out of your farming Ravens and pvp.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.30 15:33:00 - [23] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: mallina an oversized Interceptor. And you dont see how this is so wrong in so many ways? Its the same deal with the nano domis. They got nerfed. Why? Because something that big going that fast and having too much dps for its speed is imbalanced. Vagas will get nerfed some day. No, its completely different deal, Because vagabond must slow down to deal damage. So it cannto kill you and be safe at same time. So its NOT overpowered, its PERFECLTY balanced. You must be an IDIOT to die to a solo vagabond easily if you are in a tier 2 BC or better. A nanoishtar is FAR FAR more dangerous (but the dampener nerf will diminish that) If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
William DeMeo Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.10.30 15:39:00 - [24] Edited by: William DeMeo on 30/10/2007 15:44:56 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: OwnedBy Me Edited by: OwnedBy Me on 30/10/2007 14:40:06 More whines on the forums.. The vaga will never kill u if u have a brain and use it... It will kill you if ur ratting in a belt or if ur at a planet.. If u warp to the station u mwd to it and dock, same with a gate.. If u jump in and there is a vaga, go to the gate if he agros u jump back.. If he doesnt u align and warp to the next gate.. They dont have webs dude, and if they do and go into ur web range they are dead.. Now if you cant kill it in ur gang you might just not be because its overpowered, it might be ur gang that sucks/wrong fittings... Something feels terribly wrong when a vaga bond catches my 7+km/s crusader and kills it without webs. They should be fast but not friggin interceptor fast. Its imbalanced and you know it. No, it's not imbalanced. I can't imagine it's very hard to get out of disruptor range when you're in a frig doing 7km/s, you turn alot faster then a vaga you know... EDIT: only stupid people die to any type of nano hac if they're in a tier 2 BC, Vaga simply doesn't have the dps to break most tanks, the ishtar's drones pop in a matter of seconds and can't be scooped so it's frankly a ***** to kill anyone with half a braincell in the ishtar, even many cruisers can survive it if they're plated. Yarr
Jones Maloy Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.30 15:43:00 - [25] hi, i'd like to shift the attention back to why the stab nerf didn't accomplish much/anything --- WCS Nerf boycott low-sec
Solid Trust Minmatar Haven Front	Posted - 2007.10.30 15:46:00 - [26] With the introduction of two additional ships with web bonuses the Nano ships are taking a nerf. Couple that with heat and Vagas can never get close enough to kill anything safely except stupid frig/inty pilots who follow the Vaga out too far (and away from the gang).
OwnedBy Me	Posted - 2007.10.30 15:50:00 - [27] Originally by: Jones Maloy hi, i'd like to shift the attention back to why the stab nerf didn't accomplish much/anything Are u a slow person ? It did a lot.. People dont fit them on ships they pvp in, no more stab gangs.. That was what it was meant to do and it did.. Stop being a fukken r-tard
Jones Maloy Minmatar Unified Naval Command	Posted - 2007.10.30 15:57:00 - [28] Originally by: OwnedBy Me Originally by: Jones Maloy hi, i'd like to shift the attention back to why the stab nerf didn't accomplish much/anything Are u a slow person ? It did a lot.. People dont fit them on ships they pvp in, no more stab gangs.. That was what it was meant to do and it did.. Stop being a fukken r-tard so now we have nano gangs. is anything any different? the nerf was not meant to hurt pve and looting in low-sec, but it did. also avoiding word filters by slightly altering words is an exploit. --- WCS Nerf yes i'm still angry
Jones Maloy Minmatar Unified Naval Command	Posted - 2007.10.30 16:04:00 - [29] Originally by: OwnedBy Me btw: hallo kitty is that way -> btw: throat slitting is this way ^ --- WCS Nerf yes i'm still angry
OwnedBy Me	Posted - 2007.10.30 16:08:00 - [30] Originally by: Jones Maloy Originally by: OwnedBy Me btw: hallo kitty is that way -> btw: throat slitting is this way ^ But u cant handle that Would have been fun thought.. Btw: one could say that was a rl thing to say as there is no throat slitting in eve but ill just guess by ur other posts that u are a clueless WOW player.
achoura	Posted - 2007.10.30 16:12:00 - [31] Originally by: Jones Maloy Originally by: OwnedBy Me Originally by: Jones Maloy hi, i'd like to shift the attention back to why the stab nerf didn't accomplish much/anything Are u a slow person ? It did a lot.. People dont fit them on ships they pvp in, no more stab gangs.. That was what it was meant to do and it did.. Stop being a fukken r-tard so now we have nano gangs. is anything any different? the nerf was not meant to hurt pve and looting in low-sec, but it did. also avoiding word filters by slightly altering words is an exploit. Again you just don't get it. Haullers get stabs that's it. You don't fit them on ratting ships you don't fit them on pvp ships. Also so i would like to add if you need stabs for ratting in lowsec you haven't got a grasp on the game, you also have no idea what nano gangs are like compared to the 0.0 ones. I'm sorry you miss understood the intent but you no longer find cloaked stabbed snipers or stabbed gankers - it did exactly what it was supposed to you dont need stabs to rat.
Jones Maloy Minmatar Unified Naval Command	Posted - 2007.10.30 16:12:00 - [32] never played wow and don't plan to. or everquest, or diablo 2. those games eat me alive. adhd and video games don't go together very well. --- WCS Nerf yes i'm still angry
OwnedBy Me	Posted - 2007.10.30 16:14:00 - [33] Originally by: Jones Maloy never played wow and don't plan to. or everquest, or diablo 2. those games eat me alive. adhd and video games don't go together very well. So u wanna slit my throat ?
Orrelious The Umbrella Union Fleet	Posted - 2007.10.30 16:40:00 - [34] OP is like a Troll that doesn't know he's a Troll... Well really he's like a troll that doesn't know anything at all. Its almost comical.
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.10.30 17:04:00 - [35] Edited by: Gaven Blands on 30/10/2007 17:04:43 They used to say "If you fit to run, you've already lost" This was because you thought that your WCS or maybe your 2 WCS would save you. Problem with that was that one only required to devote an extra midslot from your own ship and the iRun coward died horribly. But devoting that one midslot was just too much to ask, and they cried nerf. And nerf they did. Now we have a whole new breed of iRun. No longer will devoting an extra midslot kill them. You actually need a whole ship. And at that it has to be a particular one out of a choice of about 3. And all 3 of them are highlighted as "Your Vagabond / NanoIshtar / NanoSacrilege / NanoCormorant / NanoCovetor will DIE here, iRun before you even engage". Notice how people no longer say "Fit to run and you've lost already"? Notice how when people say "counter a Vagabond" they no longer refer to killing it, just pressing iRun for them? The Pro Vaga camp know they have the weak side of the argument, which is why they twisted "counter" to no longer have anything to do with Vagabonds going pop to really cloud the situation. By way of illustration for clarity. PRO Vagabond argument. When "Counter" is defined as "Vagabond running". The number of "Counters" is a lot. Damps, ecms, neutralizers, webs, you name it. Lots of things work. ANTI Vagabond argument. When "Counter" is defined as "Vagabond dying". The number of "Counters" is a three. Plus or Minus Three. Huggin, Rapier, Curse (Big neuts). Since 2 of those can be seen coming a mile off, they are not "counters" in the ANTI argument. And since Big Neuts are not a 100% guarantee, then well, whatever. Yes and no. So you're left with 1, the Rapier. But you'd better not have a claymore near it. And since Eve players like things in black and white, I'm about to be bombarded with strawman arguments about how a maulus can single handedly hold off a faction fitted vagabond. None of which address the point of what I said. None of this matters. Frankly if you express an opinion on these forums, you're clearly a paedophile and must be killed. -- Awwwww Diddums! Did I wardec your highsec alt recently or something?
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.10.30 17:42:00 - [36] Excellent post Gaven, with exception of that last line which I believe is little over the top and inflammatory. Though don't keep in mind it's not just the Vagabonds doing this.
Jones Maloy Minmatar Unified Naval Command	Posted - 2007.10.30 18:00:00 - [37] this is starting to sound like a 4chan thread. fine, i just won't go into low-sec since the only counter to scrams is an entire ship not suited for pve. the stuff there is not worth going to get it (currently) two frigs with 2 scram each can lock nearly anything in the game down unless it devotes 8 lows to stabs. the targeting range would be reduced to (calculator.........double checks because it can't be that bad, right? no it really is that bad) .00390625 of normal, aka 0.4% of normal range. and one more noobship with a scram can even lock that down. scramblers and wcs are unballanced when a wcs uses about 30tf and 1mw making your ship totaly worthless in pvp but safe(er). wherever did they get the idea that .5 range multiplier was even close to reasonable? you would need to fit the same number of sensor boosters as wcs. so 8 sensor boosters 10tf and 1mw (yes 8mid and 8low is impossible) and 8 wcs would be using up all your meds and lows, 16mw, 320tf and 8 cap/sec. one player sacrificis any type of tank and all hope of killing another player ship. and on the other side three frigs or any ship with 5 mids sacrifice 5 mid slots to overide that. stab ship 8- , 8-- 16mw, 320tf 8cap/sec vs scram fit 5-- 5mw, 150tf 5 cap/sec ------------------- is that balance? how about this? ------------------- stab ship 8- 8mw, 160tf 0 cap/sec vs scram fit 5-- 5mw, 150tf 5 cap/sec might that be better? i don't know, honest, i need help figuring out what should be the reasonable tradeoff for an added amount of safety. i don't think the first example is. is there any way of getting the disired effect without unwanted side affects? </rant> --- WCS Nerf yes i'm still angry
Vitrael Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.10.30 18:04:00 - [38] Stop whining about the Vagabond. You all act like it's completely invincible and a DPS monster. Fact of the matter is when it's actually hitting you, it's MWD is off, which means it's probably going well under 1km/s in orbit and has a large sig as HACs go (shield extenders). While it's damaging you it can easily be smashed apart by missiles, drones, and medium turrets, and it can be completely ineffectualized by 1 tracking disruptor, 2 damps, or a bit of ECM. Next note, a max skills vaga pilot with 220mm IIs and barrage and two gyrostabilizers (probably the most you will ever see) does a whopping 347 dps. 347 dps? Ouch! That's almost as damaging as a newbie thorax! Oh wait, but the vaga is actually fighting near the top of his falloff and is probably doing something closer to 200 actually dps as a result. Furthermore its almost all explosive. Scary, huh? What? You still think the Vaga is hugely overpowered? Oh, because you can't kill it? Well ** me with a garden hose! We'd better nerf POSes for reinforced mode and pods for their instawarp then! Vagabonds in orbit can be in 2 states: 1. MWD off, dealing damage. Easy to kill. 2. MWD on, not dealing damage. Nigh impossible to kill. If state 2 is overpowered then you're just a petty whiner who wants a HAC killmail. The ship is fast. It was meant to be fast. GET OVER IT**. ___________ I learned to accept ship changes months ago. Suddenly I enjoy Eve. You should try it some time.
OwnedBy Me	Posted - 2007.10.30 18:05:00 - [39] Edited by: OwnedBy Me on 30/10/2007 18:05:05 Originally by: Jones Maloy A LOT MORE RAMDON RABLLE get some friends learn to play or Leave eve Play wow with the gold farmers
Jones Maloy Minmatar Unified Naval Command	Posted - 2007.10.30 18:26:00 - [40] those are some great ideas about wcs guys!!!! thread is about wcs nerf not "the ship that must not be named" please stay with it and post constructivly or don't post. i have no problem with "tstmnbn" i'm going to love flying one. for further info read op and other posts. sorry about the vilont one, my temper is not that good and i've got some issues that i'm trying to forget. no, i don't need another wow comment sheeesh. --- WCS Nerf yes i'm still angry
Leya Marcsson	Posted - 2007.10.30 18:37:00 - [41] Huh, bad vibes here you all should get laid or do some other kind (pysical) sport. Actual that Maloyguy sounds far less whiny than all the Vegagals accuse him to be whiny. Funny. Seems the vega draw the attention of a very special kind of players - somehow guess its the same kind bunny hopping in FPS or regulary getting aggro on TS because here mother/here wife want them to take care about the trash/the kids. Tho I also think vegas are't that overpowered. Perhabs a little bit too fast, but nothing I would change radicaly. And actualy I like the WCS nerf. sigh like every time I seem to sit between the chairs dont like the bark of the dogs but love meat :D
Bardi MecAuldnis Amarr Heretic Army Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.30 19:11:00 - [42] Lived in lowsec from day 1. Most deaths came as a result of poor planning (be it not paying attention, not running when I should have, not thinking before engaging), few have been from being outsmarted. Basically, disengage WCS, engage brain housing group. Your ship will live a lot longer if it is fit to live. The rest, is up to you. Watch local, use scanner, blah blah blah... There is no such thing as (and hopefully never will be) perfect safety in EVE. EVE is as safe as you make it. WCS will not save you, nanos will not save you. If you can't hack it in lowsec yet, stay out of lowsec. If you can't hack it in EVE, stay out of EVE. There will always be people who will find a way to engage on their own terms. That's how you win a fight. Did I miss any responses? Oh and ADD works beautifully with games --- Amarr/Caldari, and proud of it. Hey hey let's go kenka suru! Taisetsuna mono protect my balls! Boku ga warui so lets fighting! LET'S FIGHTING LOVE!!!
Baaldor Caldari Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.30 20:16:00 - [43] Originally by: Jones Maloy those are some great ideas about wcs guys!!!! thread is about wcs nerf not "the ship that must not be named" please stay with it and post constructivly or don't post. i have no problem with "tstmnbn" i'm going to love flying one. for further info read op and other posts. sorry about the vilont one, my temper is not that good and i've got some issues that i'm trying to forget. no, i don't need another wow comment sheeesh. Stabs on a pvp ship gave some players the belief that it was the I win button. They can warp in pick a fight get a couple of kills and escape. Tiller would use this trick exclusively on his smart bombing battle ship or his sniper. It became an imbalance, and the damage it was doing to game play far out weighed the inconvenience of slow targeting and reduced range others would experience. Stabs were looked at as defensive mods that helped get you out of trouble. It aided in escape. So the pilot had to weigh his options...ability to escape or tactical advantage.But the nerf was done for the benefit of the majority of the community not just for a few. You can not have a nerf that has no side effects. It is impossible, someone somewhere likes it how it was. I have endured a lot of these changes in the past and it is all about adapting. I am not happy with half of the nerfs CCP has done, but I have to roll with the punches because it is what it is. I have to learn to work with what I am given and try to be successful. Its part of the game. *SIDE NOTE:I am sorry but the Vagabond is fun to mess with. 6000ms per second is not all that fast. Plus beyond 3000ms they are just high speed kites. With Vaga's you have to play a waiting game and have some patience. I don't fly them but I hope they never change them. THE PREVIOUS VIEWS AND STATEMENTS DO NOT REPRESENT AND OR SUPPORTED BY THE MANY VOICES IN MY HEAD.
Nyc	Posted - 2007.10.30 20:29:00 - [44] Finally, Minmatar's speed means something and people want to nerf it. Go figure.
Gort Storm Guard Elite	Posted - 2007.10.30 21:04:00 - [45] Originally by: Jones Maloy i've never encountered a nanobond before as i never go into low sec. nerfing stabs didn't do enough so maybe that wasn't the right move. to fix a problem you can make slight tweaks or a huge overhaul. i've found that most things in-between don't work very well. my issue is that nerfing stabs was not the way to fix the problem and had many undisireable side effects. therefore, un-nerf stabs and do something to fix the problem while not affecting anything else. If the overall problem you describe is that a ship managed to get away from you, then I don't think there is a problem. I think a problem would be if Eve were designed such that no ship could ever disengage. Plenty of Vagas go down in flames on a daily basis, as do other fast ships. I do personally think that there are too many speed mods in the game, which leads to silly results when they are all added together. But this is true for many ships, and is a result of mod-spamming, and insufficient stacking penalties, in my own opinion, not a particular ship's design or specs. Regards, Gort Gort -- When in doubt, empty the magazine.
Spaced Skunk D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.30 21:16:00 - [46] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Last Wolf Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: mallina an oversized Interceptor. And you dont see how this is so wrong in so many ways? Its the same deal with the nano domis. They got nerfed. Why? Because something that big going that fast and having too much dps for its speed is imbalanced. Vagas will get nerfed some day. Don't fly in a straight line? Hell even a sieged dread will pop you if you do that. I think you two are missing the point. 1. Vagas cap is weak and can be neuted easy, which means anything with a MWD will catch it 2. It doesnt do good dps 3. It is meant to be fast How is the dps of a Vaga good? Its tripe tbh. To Spawny, a great guy, a great laugh. Rest in peace buddy.
Mr Ignitious Gallente Kingpins	Posted - 2007.10.30 21:21:00 - [47] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: mallina an oversized Interceptor. And you dont see how this is so wrong in so many ways? Its the same deal with the nano domis. They got nerfed. Why? Because something that big going that fast and having too much dps for its speed is imbalanced. Vagas will get nerfed some day. problem with this, a nano domi isn't using its guns to rip you apart, those heavy drones are, which arent affected by your speed, only if that they can catch up to their target. your never ever ever going to see a vaga launching 5 heavy drones...
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.30 21:28:00 - [48] stabs were nerfed for a reason: they were defensive modules that were more suited for traveling, but were used abusevly in combat. by abusevly I mean 7 wcs domis that were nigh impossible to catch. tbh it was a good change. the nano-nerf came later and effectively nerfed ships that weren't supposed to speed tank, or speed tanked excessively. tbh it was a good change. now you want to nerf speed tanking ships EVEN MORE, just because if they can't beat you, they run? Oy news flash: you made the guy run, you won the fight. so he lives another day. big deal. you beaten him once, you can beat him again. plus speed tanked ships usually have not that much firepower and even less tank. Heck, I've seen a group of 5(?) battle haulers KILL a vagabond. --- planetary interaction idea!
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.10.30 23:06:00 - [49] Originally by: Grimpak now you want to nerf speed tanking ships EVEN MORE, just because if they can't beat you, they run? Oy news flash: you made the guy run, you won the fight. so he lives another day. big deal. you beaten him once, you can beat him again. A sensible point of view for a merc but not for someone who has an enemy speed gang roaming through their territory.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.30 23:15:00 - [50] Edited by: Grimpak on 30/10/2007 23:17:07 Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: Grimpak now you want to nerf speed tanking ships EVEN MORE, just because if they can't beat you, they run? Oy news flash: you made the guy run, you won the fight. so he lives another day. big deal. you beaten him once, you can beat him again. A sensible point of view for a merc but not for someone who has an enemy speed gang roaming through their territory. then gather friends. bring heavier ships. scare them away from your territory. there are tools ingame that can stop dead, or reduce a nano gang to zero effectiveness. as long as you keep in mind that nano-ships sacrifice allot just to stay mobile (tank and firepower), and you take advantage from the flaws they have, then you win. oh and while I am a merc now, I do had my share of fast roaming gangs in my ASCN days. honest, it's not that hard to stop them. --- planetary interaction idea!
Apollyonn Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.10.31 00:06:00 - [51] Quit whining about the vag. Its an easy to kill ship if you know how. The fact that it is a hit and run ship is the niche it fills. If you have a problem with that, you fit stabs and run away. If you know what you are doing, you wont get caught by them. If you do get caught, and you can't take them out, then they were better pilots than you. Get over it, remember its a game, and would everyone just STFU about nerfing everything? CCP is perfectly good at nerfing without all you whiners asking for more. It seems like people wont be happy until we are all flying the same ship, with the same stats, same weapons, and everyone is happily equal and pathetic. If you can't beat someone, get better. If you still can't beat them, don't fight them. Its very easy to avoid a fight. If you don't like what I said, too bad. It needed to be said by someone. I read these forums plenty and all I ever seem to see are people whining about how overpowered one ship is and they can't beat it. Suck it up and learn a way how. This is a very balanced game where everyone is just as vulnerable as everyone else. All ships fit a niche. Not all ships are equal in DPS, speed, or tanking. Thats the nature of the beast. Not everything can be equal or everything would suck. If you want to reply to this and want me to see this, send me an evemail ingame because I wont check this again. If you liked this little rant, send me 1mil. If you didn't like this rant, go cry and then send me 1mil. Cheers. My opinions are my own and do not reflect those of my corporation or alliance. (But I'm sure they would agree....)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.31 00:24:00 - [52] Originally by: Arvald Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: mallina an oversized Interceptor. And you dont see how this is so wrong in so many ways? Its the same deal with the nano domis. They got nerfed. Why? Because something that big going that fast and having too much dps for its speed is imbalanced. Vagas will get nerfed some day. well then i guess we should be glad that their not that big and dont ahve taht much dps then eh? If you fly as fast as an interceptor, or even faster, you should have interceptor dps. Does a vaga have inty dps? No. Imba. WTb nerf bat.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.31 00:29:00 - [53] Originally by: Gaven Blands Edited by: Gaven Blands on 30/10/2007 17:04:43 They used to say "If you fit to run, you've already lost" This was because you thought that your WCS or maybe your 2 WCS would save you. Problem with that was that one only required to devote an extra midslot from your own ship and the iRun coward died horribly. But devoting that one midslot was just too much to ask, and they cried nerf. And nerf they did. Now we have a whole new breed of iRun. No longer will devoting an extra midslot kill them. You actually need a whole ship. And at that it has to be a particular one out of a choice of about 3. And all 3 of them are highlighted as "Your Vagabond / NanoIshtar / NanoSacrilege / NanoCormorant / NanoCovetor will DIE here, iRun before you even engage". Notice how people no longer say "Fit to run and you've lost already"? Notice how when people say "counter a Vagabond" they no longer refer to killing it, just pressing iRun for them? The Pro Vaga camp know they have the weak side of the argument, which is why they twisted "counter" to no longer have anything to do with Vagabonds going pop to really cloud the situation. By way of illustration for clarity. PRO Vagabond argument. When "Counter" is defined as "Vagabond running". The number of "Counters" is a lot. Damps, ecms, neutralizers, webs, you name it. Lots of things work. ANTI Vagabond argument. When "Counter" is defined as "Vagabond dying". The number of "Counters" is a three. Plus or Minus Three. Huggin, Rapier, Curse (Big neuts). Since 2 of those can be seen coming a mile off, they are not "counters" in the ANTI argument. And since Big Neuts are not a 100% guarantee, then well, whatever. Yes and no. So you're left with 1, the Rapier. But you'd better not have a claymore near it. And since Eve players like things in black and white, I'm about to be bombarded with strawman arguments about how a maulus can single handedly hold off a faction fitted vagabond. None of which address the point of what I said. None of this matters. Frankly if you express an opinion on these forums, you're clearly a paedophile and must be killed. QFT. They know its overpowered they just want to keep their ubership so they put up a show filled with alot of mumbo jumbo mixed with lies, twisted facts, unrealistic situations and alot of flaming to throw you off track.
Sharupak Minmatar Knights Of the Black Sun Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.10.31 00:53:00 - [54] Originally by: Jones Maloy Edited by: Jones Maloy on 30/10/2007 14:21:23 the problem is: some ships and setups can achieve the i-win-or-i-run button. ccp's solution: nerf stabs. effect: ships now speed tank to escape from undisirable fights and are still able to take out normalily equiped ships. while mission runners and ratters can no longer target at a decent range while at the same time being safe from scrams. new problem: some ships and setups can achieve the i-win-or-i-run button. solution: un-nerf stabs and _______________ to fix the problem. any suggestions? <edit> i just noticed that the stababond has turned into the nanobond. maybe the ship is the problem? </edit> Its not a problem. It had been established in about 100 threads on this subject on the 7 to 10 various ways to beat nanoships. _______________________________________________ RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.31 01:01:00 - [55] Originally by: Sharupak Originally by: Jones Maloy Edited by: Jones Maloy on 30/10/2007 14:21:23 the problem is: some ships and setups can achieve the i-win-or-i-run button. ccp's solution: nerf stabs. effect: ships now speed tank to escape from undisirable fights and are still able to take out normalily equiped ships. while mission runners and ratters can no longer target at a decent range while at the same time being safe from scrams. new problem: some ships and setups can achieve the i-win-or-i-run button. solution: un-nerf stabs and _______________ to fix the problem. any suggestions? <edit> i just noticed that the stababond has turned into the nanobond. maybe the ship is the problem? </edit> Its not a problem. It had been established in about 100 threads on this subject on the 7 to 10 various ways to beat nanoships. No those are 7-10 various ways of: -not dying to a nanoship -forcing it to flee -disrupting it in other ways 1 and half of those is how to kill it -get a faster and better nano to kill it -get a rapier Unacceptable, the same reason nano domi was nerfed. Nerf bat coming vagas way someday youll see.
Shardrael Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.10.31 01:17:00 - [56] Originally by: Grimpak stabs were nerfed for a reason: they were defensive modules that were more suited for traveling, but were used abusevly in combat. by abusevly I mean 7 wcs domis that were nigh impossible to catch. tbh it was a good change. the nano-nerf came later and effectively nerfed ships that weren't supposed to speed tank, or speed tanked excessively. tbh it was a good change. now you want to nerf speed tanking ships EVEN MORE, just because if they can't beat you, they run? Oy news flash: you made the guy run, you won the fight. so he lives another day. big deal. you beaten him once, you can beat him again. plus speed tanked ships usually have not that much firepower and even less tank. Heck, I've seen a group of 5(?) battle haulers KILL a vagabond. case and point tbo. I fly vagas, I also fly all the ships that murder vagas and tbo when I am sitting in my homestation their are a great deal ships I fear more then the vaga.... and to top it off there is a frigate sized version of the hugin coming out that will pwn vagas hard, furthermore overloading webs is enough to get one if he decides to commit to you. they really arent that hard to deal with and if you guys cant figure out how to you need to seriously look at what you dont know about the game and try to learn it.
Khornne	Posted - 2007.10.31 04:22:00 - [57] I can't help but notice, it seems that all the big powerful (REALLY HEAVY PVP) alliances represented here (IRON, Goon, Tri, KIA, etc.) seem to like the vaga. They are not saying they like it because it is an OMGBBQPWNG nano boat, but they like it because it is BALANCED! Likewise for the WCSs. Maybe the people who like the vaga the way it is are better than you, maybe they are just smarter. Either way, they are right and this is all well balanced and should not be fooled with.
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.10.31 04:30:00 - [58] Originally by: Khornne I can't help but notice, it seems that all the big powerful (REALLY HEAVY PVP) alliances represented here (IRON, Goon, Tri, KIA, etc.) seem to like the vaga. This may have something to do with the fact that groups of this size have no problem gathering pilots with the required skills and kit to dispose of them. Even with limited counters when you have several hundred people to call on chances our someone has it set-up in a hangar somewhere.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.31 05:13:00 - [59] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: Khornne I can't help but notice, it seems that all the big powerful (REALLY HEAVY PVP) alliances represented here (IRON, Goon, Tri, KIA, etc.) seem to like the vaga. This may have something to do with the fact that groups of this size have no problem gathering pilots with the required skills and kit to dispose of them. Even with limited counters when you have several hundred people to call on chances our someone has it set-up in a hangar somewhere. Last time I checked KIA was at like a couple hundred members. It has nothing to do with numbers and everything to do with your skill as a pvper. Like 1/4 of tri can fly a rapier for example(we're minmatar heavy as an alliance). signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.31 05:16:00 - [60] To the OP, I'm not ashamed to admit I fit a single wcs(best named) on my ratting raven. It doesnt really diminish its ratting ability any(5 extra seconds to lock, big deal), and most people only fit 1 point anyways. Although I've never actually had to use the stab since anybody with a brain pays attention to local/align while ratting. signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.10.31 05:37:00 - [61] Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 31/10/2007 05:38:15 Originally by: Gamesguy Last time I checked KIA was at like a couple hundred members. It has nothing to do with numbers and everything to do with your skill as a pvper. Like 1/4 of tri can fly a rapier for example(we're minmatar heavy as an alliance). Doesn't that kind of prove the point? Not every corp is the same and while their PvP ability may be up to scrath their ability to field a rapier at any time of the day or night may not. The ability to pull just about any ship out at any time of day isn't about PvP skill, it's about SP, where your corp/alliance has them, and dumb luck. And again my skill as a PvPer has nothing to do with it, I neither fly with nor fight nano-gangs... Aliastra don't tend to go into that side of things much. Try to keep the discussion non-personal.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.31 07:19:00 - [62] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Doesn't that kind of prove the point? Not every corp is the same and while their PvP ability may be up to scrath their ability to field a rapier at any time of the day or night may not. The ability to pull just about any ship out at any time of day isn't about PvP skill, it's about SP, where your corp/alliance has them, and dumb luck. The 2 are synonymous. If your corp can only fly t1 frigs you wont be very good at pvp. No offense to goons but they werent very good at pvp either despite their numbers till their members got more SP and trained skills. Any "good" pvp corp will have lots of pilots available to fly minmatar recons. signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.31 09:30:00 - [63] Edited by: Grimpak on 31/10/2007 09:31:33 Originally by: Khornne I can't help but notice, it seems that all the big powerful (REALLY HEAVY PVP) alliances represented here (IRON, Goon, Tri, KIA, etc.) seem to like the vaga. They are not saying they like it because it is an OMGBBQPWNG nano boat, but they like it because it is BALANCED! Likewise for the WCSs. Maybe the people who like the vaga the way it is are better than you, maybe they are just smarter. Either way, they are right and this is all well balanced and should not be fooled with. actually I just got skills to fly the vaga a couple of days ago, and my objective wasn't the vaga but the muninn. also in our ops, I only saw 2 or 3 guys flying minmatar T2 cruisers, that is when they decide to bring their HAC's or recons and not their turtle BS'es. and last time I checked, we're not PvP, we're battle-hardened sheeps. Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf I'm not a territorial myself anymore, but the important thing is to ensure they suffer significant losses for strolling through your turf, certainly at least as much as they have inflicted upon you. However this isn't the case as they have largely free reign until you gather the nano-busting squad and track the blighters down, while your carebears and anyone not equipped with the correct ship and fit either docks up or takes a pasting for an hour of so. Even once you've sent them packing the ones you didn't manage to kill (ie. the half decent pilots) will often be back harassing your non-combatants within the hour and lo you can't gather the required personnel to dispose of them. WTB anti-vaga scarecrow, gives the appearance of being an anti-speed-gang, sends nano-gangs running faster than you can say "Boo!" That or a few more counters so the odds of your average corp with 10-30 people on-line has a chance of being able to rustle up some resistance between them and not be stuck with them because Jack, Fred, and Nelly don't happen to be on-line. if your alliance mates play smart, they won't be ganked that easily. add the fact that any nano-gang will pretty much run away when they see a numerically and with more armor and firepower than them. if you keep that up, the gank squad will deem you "unfunny" and "boring" and stop coming cuz they can't get easy kills (hint: drop 10 carriers on top of them). the more kills you deny, the better. also if you live in a 0.0 alliance you have to compromise. you can't center your defense arround a couple of people that you don't know they will be online when there is an attack, so instead skilling up for an exhumer or something, lose some time and skill up for a HAC or improve your BS skills or whatever. --- planetary interaction idea!
Spaced Skunk D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.31 11:34:00 - [64] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: Khornne I can't help but notice, it seems that all the big powerful (REALLY HEAVY PVP) alliances represented here (IRON, Goon, Tri, KIA, etc.) seem to like the vaga. This may have something to do with the fact that groups of this size have no problem gathering pilots with the required skills and kit to dispose of them. Even with limited counters when you have several hundred people to call on chances our someone has it set-up in a hangar somewhere. I'd put it to the fact that vaga's are fun to fly, they are extremely effective in packs, and can travel many jumps quickly making roaming for targets more efficient. If we were say strongly Amarr we would use Nano-Zealots, if we were Caldari we would use some speedy Cerberus, if we were Gallente we'd surely use mainly Nano-Ishtars. Speed with numbers is the key essence most of the time, so your targets can't run away... To Spawny, a great guy, a great laugh. Rest in peace buddy.
DarK STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.10.31 12:17:00 - [65] Saying that the vagabond was designed to go 7km/s is a bit silly, as at the time of its design there were no snake implants, no rigs, and no mass reducing modules. We all know CCP lacks foresight.
mallina Caldari Core Contingency	Posted - 2007.10.31 14:58:00 - [66] Originally by: Khornne I can't help but notice, it seems that all the big powerful (REALLY HEAVY PVP) alliances represented here (IRON, Goon, Tri, KIA, etc.) seem to like the vaga. They like it because of its speed, and in the land of Real PvP Blob warfare that is 0.0, Speed and K/D ratio are about the only things most people care about, which just happen to be the niche of that ship. (note that getting lots of kills and achieving a decent K/D ratio are completely seperate things) Originally by: Khornne They are not saying they like it because it is an OMGBBQPWNG nano boat, but they like it because it is BALANCED! Likewise for the WCSs. The Vaga is balanced. People arn't really complaining about the Vaga. The Vaga is meant to go fast. People are complaining about Speed and the immense ease of escape it provides when compared to traditional setups, especially in the golden age of Bubblecamps and Snake Sets. ---
Arvald Caldari House of Tempers	Posted - 2007.10.31 15:14:00 - [67] Originally by: Jones Maloy Edited by: Jones Maloy on 30/10/2007 18:53:04 Originally by: OwnedBy Me btw: hallo kitty is that way -> btw: throat slitting is this way ^ <edit> Sorry about that. I get pretty steamed sometimes. Leaving it in for posterity. </edit> oooh rl threats, now whos commiting banable offences --------------------------- Originally by: eddie valvetino little small voice in the back of my head i've ignored all summer now screams "BLOW SOMETHING UP!!!!!!!!! M***R FCKER!!!!!!"
MrTripps Gallente	Posted - 2007.10.31 15:22:00 - [68] 1. Don't fit stabs. 2. Don't suck. Problem solved. Certainty of death...small chance of success...what are we waiting for? - Gimli
Arvald Caldari House of Tempers	Posted - 2007.10.31 15:28:00 - [69] Edited by: Arvald on 31/10/2007 15:27:50 Originally by: MrTripps 1. Don't fit stabs. 2. Don't suck. Problem solved. must emphasise on that one --------------------------- Originally by: eddie valvetino little small voice in the back of my head i've ignored all summer now screams "BLOW SOMETHING UP!!!!!!!!! M***R FCKER!!!!!!"

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