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Split Weapon Systems: How much is too much?

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Cinimrat	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:11:00 - [1] Edited by: Cinimrat on 02/11/2007 20:15:22 In EVE there are generally two primary types of combat ships; single weapon ships (preferred by the Amarr and Caldari) and split-weapon ships (preferred by the Gallente and especially the Minmatar). ItÆs obvious from the popularity of Gallente and Minmatar in PvP that these split-weapon ships need to be balanced. Why, you ask? Let me use the power of MATH! Single Weapon Systems Advantages: Single Weapon Systems are less skill-intensive to train, so itÆs easier to be productive in a single-weapon system, generally speaking. In addition, many single-weapon ships receive two racial bonuses to those weapons (damage + tracking, for example). This is more prevalent on T2 ships, and less so on T1 ships due to T1 ships only having two bonuses. Disadvantages: Single weapon systems are far less versatile than split weapon systems. With turrets this problem is slightly less pronounced since one could fit different (but non-bonused) types of turrets on ships (the Laserthron is popular in PvP). However, these weapons will not gain the benefit of the shipÆs bonuses. Split Weapon Systems Advantages: Split Weapon Systems are more versatile, making the ship less vulnerable to threats that would normally spell doom for single-weapon systems. This versatility allows them to tackle more obstacles well especially in PvE, though they are slightly less effective than a more specialized ship. Disadvantages: Split Weapon Systems are slightly more difficult to train for since you need the primary and secondary skills to train for them. In addition, more slots are needed to increase the damage on both systems. This is not a huge issue however since tanking is generally unimportant in most PvP (remote logistics, e-war, and incompetent mitigate this issue). Comparison Damage: Damage varies between individual weapon systems, but generally speaking single weapon systems have a minor advantage IF the ship in question has two bonuses for said weapons. Adaptiveness: Split weapons have an obvious advantage in adaptiveness since they have the advantages of two weapon systems and can minimize each otherÆs weaknesses. Tracking too fast for rails? Your missiles will take care of that pest! Training: Single weapon systems have a slight advantage here, since you only need the support skills for a single weapon system. Damage Modification: Split weapon systems have an obvious advantage here. While single weapon systems top out after 3 damage mods (due to stacking nerf), split weapons can use an additional 3 damage mods, bringing their damage at least 50% higher than single-weapon systems. Conclusion Split weapon systems need to be balanced properly. Potential Solutions 1. Reduce damage bonuses and make split weapon systems more prevalent û this will bring them in line with specialized systems but create additional ways to use them. Thus split-weapon users wonÆt whine too much. Single-weapon users will have to adapt, but once the realize the higher damage potential theyÆll be happy I think. I quite like this solution so IÆll be providing some examples. 2. Reduce split-weapon shipsÆ tanking ability û this will account for the higher damage and help them fit more specialized roles. Also, considering the lack of important of tanking in most PvP situations this will not harm them too much. Part 2 coming!
Cinimrat	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:13:00 - [2] Potential Solutions 1. Reduce damage bonuses and make split weapon systems more prevalent û this will bring them in line with specialized systems but create additional ways to use them. Thus split-weapon users wonÆt whine too much. Single-weapon users will have to adapt, but once the realize the higher damage potential theyÆll be happy I think. I quite like this solution so IÆll be providing some examples. 2. Reduce split-weapon shipsÆ tanking ability û this will account for the higher damage and help them fit more specialized roles. Also, considering the lack of important of tanking in most PvP situations this will not harm them too much Revamped Ships Rokh 6 Turrets, 6 Missile 5% Bonus to Railgun Optimal Range 2.5% Bonus to Heavy Assault Missile Range Allows the Rokh to specialize in either long or short range combat, while retaining some ability to defent against both. Maelstrom 6 Turret, 2 Utility, 250m Dronebay 5% Bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage 5% Bonus to Large Projectile Tracking The Maelstrom can fit autocannons + heavies for short and medium range engagements, or Artillery + Sentry drones for long range. The extra tracking will help the artillery hit closer-in targets and the drone damage bonus will help drones. The extra Abaddon 4 Turrets, 4 Missile 2.5% Bonus to laser damage 2.5% Bonus to HAM explosion velocity This allows the Abaddon to solve itÆs capacitor use issue and is also in line with Khanid MK. 2. The HAM explosion velocity bonus will make it highly dangerous vs. smaller ships while the laser damage bonus will allow it to compete at range. We all know what needs to be done. IÆve outlined the problems, compared them factually, and suggested solutions. Now all we need is for CCP to implement them.
Transcendant One	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:13:00 - [3] Originally by: Cinimrat Conclusion Split weapon systems are overpowered.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:18:00 - [4] Edited by: MotherMoon on 02/11/2007 20:20:24 Originally by: Transcendant One Originally by: Cinimrat Conclusion Split weapon systems are overpowered. I never thought I'd see the day... please post the math behind this. also post how having to use 6 low slots for this damage doesn't put your tank to hell... you said they need less tank, but with 6 lows taken up you have no tank. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP need...more room...
Cinimrat	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:20:00 - [5] Well overpowered might be somewhat of a misstatement, but they need to be balanced. I changed my post accordingly.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:21:00 - [6] The OP obviously has several screws loose. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in pink Forum Warfare Originally by: Tortun Nahme we can call it
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:22:00 - [7] Originally by: Cinimrat Well overpowered might be somewhat of a misstatement, but they need to be balanced. I changed my post accordingly. can you post the dps of the ships? lets see the tanking dps compared to the damage dps on a typhoon please. with 6 lows using damage mods. and then show us the damage of the current maelstrom. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP need...more room...
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:25:00 - [8] Originally by: Tarminic The OP obviously has several screws loose. to be honest I thought this was a whine about split weapons systems being to weak... until I got to the end... ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP need...more room...
Thurisaz Prizma Amarr Stronghold of Agony	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:25:00 - [9] Originally by: Tarminic The OP obviously has several screws loose. Came from the pink man
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:27:00 - [10] Edited by: MotherMoon on 02/11/2007 20:26:56 Originally by: Thurisaz Prizma Originally by: Tarminic The OP obviously has several screws loose. Came from the pink man the pink man with what... 40,000 post on these forums? ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP need...more room...
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:28:00 - [11] Originally by: Thurisaz Prizma Originally by: Tarminic The OP obviously has several screws loose. Came from the pink man IT'S NOT MY FAULT. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in pink Forum Warfare
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:30:00 - [12] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Thurisaz Prizma Originally by: Tarminic The OP obviously has several screws loose. Came from the pink man IT'S NOT MY FAULT. did someone pay you to post in pink? ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP need...more room...
Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:30:00 - [13] Originally by: Tarminic The OP obviously has several screws loose. Admit it, the OP is your alt, isn't he? How much did they pay you this time? Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:31:00 - [14] Originally by: MotherMoon did someone pay you to post in pink? Not quite... ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in pink Forum Warfare
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:32:00 - [15] Are you sure this OP isn't one of your alts, Tarminic? - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:33:00 - [16] heheh it's ok if it was an alt...the TEXT would be pink! ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP need...more room...
omiNATION Gallente Vanguard of the Ouroboros Nation	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:34:00 - [17] 756dps max, i get, lol [sig] EVE, basically an MMORPG with prison rules. [/sig]
Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:35:00 - [18] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Thurisaz Prizma Originally by: Tarminic The OP obviously has several screws loose. Came from the pink man IT'S NOT MY FAULT. did someone pay you to post in pink? Kind of. Someone paid Tarminic to whine about himself, and demanding a nerf. As a response, our awesome dev Prism X made all his posts have /pink tags around them. Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
Kolwrath Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:35:00 - [19] Split weapon systems are overpowered??? WHAT? Uhhh noooooooo please look at the math behind them. Split weapon systems are very skill intensive and disadvantaged fitting wise. A 4 turret, 4 missle Rokh will only get 50% bonus from a mag stab for example. Originally by: Cinimrat Revamped Ships Rokh 6 Turrets, 6 Missile 5% Bonus to Railgun Optimal Range 2.5% Bonus to Heavy Assault Missile Range Allows the Rokh to specialize in either long or short range combat, while retaining some ability to defent against both. Maelstrom 6 Turret, 2 Utility, 250m Dronebay 5% Bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage 5% Bonus to Large Projectile Tracking The Maelstrom can fit autocannons + heavies for short and medium range engagements, or Artillery + Sentry drones for long range. The extra tracking will help the artillery hit closer-in targets and the drone damage bonus will help drones. The extra Abaddon 4 Turrets, 4 Missile 2.5% Bonus to laser damage 2.5% Bonus to HAM explosion velocity This allows the Abaddon to solve itÆs capacitor use issue and is also in line with Khanid MK. 2. The HAM explosion velocity bonus will make it highly dangerous vs. smaller ships while the laser damage bonus will allow it to compete at range. We all know what needs to be done. IÆve outlined the problems, compared them factually, and suggested solutions. Now all we need is for CCP to implement them. Battleship with a bonus to Cruiser weapons????? WAHHTHAT?!?!? This whole post is just so ..... wrong?!?!? Originally by: Chaos Space Marines Do you hear the voices, too?!?!
Cinimrat	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:38:00 - [20] Originally by: Kolwrath Battleship with a bonus to Cruiser weapons????? WAHHTHAT?!?!? Corrected...meant torpedos instead of HAMs
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:39:00 - [21] Originally by: omiNATION 756dps max, i get, lol thank you. now I really hope this is a tarminic post lolz. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP need...more room...
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:40:00 - [22] Edited by: Tarminic on 02/11/2007 20:40:24 Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: omiNATION 756dps max, i get, lol thank you. now I really hope this is a tarminic post lolz. Yeah, I would like to take credit for this post... ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in pink Forum Warfare
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:42:00 - [23] Edited by: MotherMoon on 02/11/2007 20:42:46 Originally by: Tarminic Edited by: Tarminic on 02/11/2007 20:40:24 Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: omiNATION 756dps max, i get, lol thank you. now I really hope this is a tarminic post lolz. Yeah, I would like to take credit for this post... hmm I'm thinking about maybe paying you 10 mil to post about how tarminic is ruining the forums because when someone post a stupid whine you can tell if it's legit or a tarminic whine. Thus, it's like every ost on the forums is actully yours! hell as far as we know it's been that way for past 2 years!!! redpill...blue pill.. OH GOD WHAT IS REAL! there is no pink there is no pink ther is no pink the pink is a lie :P ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP need...more room...
Celeritas 5k Caldari Initrode The Core Collective	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:46:00 - [24] Originally by: Cinimrat (the Laserthron is popular in PvP). It is? - Always be Happy, Never be satisfied.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:48:00 - [25] Originally by: Cinimrat Damage Modification: Split weapon systems have an obvious advantage here. While single weapon systems top out after 3 damage mods (due to stacking nerf), split weapons can use an additional 3 damage mods, bringing their damage at least 50% higher than single-weapon systems. WRONG Skunk
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance	Posted - 2007.11.02 21:18:00 - [26] Originally by: Le Skunk WRONG Skunk Sums it up quite well. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in pink Forum Warfare
Laura Steel The Chaotic Order Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.11.02 21:23:00 - [27] Originally by: Tarminic Sums it up quite well. It's weird when your post isn't pink :P ----
SoftRevolution	Posted - 2007.11.02 21:28:00 - [28] Originally by: Tarminic The OP obviously has several screws loose. And I would have sworn this was one of yours.
dor amwar Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.02 21:38:00 - [29] bud what are you smoking because it's really putting you out of your mind and i want some - 4-6 dmg mods on a ship? - 2 missle bays on a cane are going to take care of exactly what in how much time? - it's not a primary and a secondary in some cases, it's 2 primaries ... typhoon, huginn - at least with the gallente primary system the ship can still move at top speed and still hit. minmatar have severe tracking issues to deal with, unless they have that uber 1 or 2 missile 'option' eve is all about maximizing specialization not generalization. ships with the highest number of mid or low slots usually make it the uber in it's class. minmater have some good ships but this split weapons advantage you talk about ... get outta here.
Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2007.11.02 21:42:00 - [30] Originally by: Laura Steel Originally by: Tarminic Sums it up quite well. It's weird when your post isn't pink :P My eyes exploded when trying to read that sentence. Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!

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