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Ambulation and the future: Where is EVE going? (Not a rant)

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Ivy Jhay Caladonian Rangers Inc. Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.12 13:19:00 - [91] well atleast industrial and executive guyshave somthing to be proud of. too bad for me then. i'm kinda shy i love tsikot.com
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.12 13:25:00 - [92] there is 2 things that needs to be done in order to make ambulation a bit better: 1) for a new player, it would be nice that the office at their starter station wouldn't be an office, but a campus instead. They are supposed to be in university/technical schools and whatsoever, so it would be a nice touch. 2) is it possible that in stations with larger open spaces (as in thos gallente ones with green areas), to produce controlled weather patterns? For example, not mimicking the earth-like patterns but at a given time, the blue sky that you see displayed holographically in a very high ceiling starts shifting to a cloudy sky, but in a way that you see it change by a square each time or smth. 2+) rain in open areas like bazaar/market and whatsoever would give a nice effect too. --- planetary interaction idea!
Umit Davala Corpus PCG The State	Posted - 2007.11.12 13:26:00 - [93] I was very much against the idea of Internet WalkingÖ when it was first announced, but I'm starting to warm to the idea now. I think its the fact that CCP are aware of the lolzor'ing eejits that would ruin it, and are designing it accordingly (hooray for walking only). In fact I have only one reservation about it now. And thats the amount of times my poor female alt is going to get hit on (Not mentioning any names, but I know who you are.. Yes you <names removed to keep dignity intact.> With plastic surgery, the poor girl's going to get abducted in the night and wake up with a chest of dionyssian proportions.) Not too keen on the idea of FPS eventually though. My twitch skills are less twitch, more trundle.
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.11.12 13:32:00 - [94] Edited by: N1fty on 12/11/2007 13:32:40 As soon as I can shoot people in the face I will be satisfied that Ambulation (EDIT: Internet Walking) is worthwhile. I realise that it will be a long time before anything like this happens. ============================================
Jessica Lorelei Minmatar Decimus Corp FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2007.11.12 13:52:00 - [95] great idea to have Internet walking :D pilots aren't so tough without their carriers LOL shame i wont be able to kick them in the nuts :(
James Duar Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.12 13:59:00 - [96] Ambulation needs a fist-fighting routine.
Matrixcvd Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.12 14:13:00 - [97] Originally by: Nicho Void Then they're welcome to come. I for one will greet them with my heavy neutron blasters blazing. thats until the blasters get nerfed for some kind of exploding pants mod that is a little bit gentler to the noobs. I will be honest i dont rp and i applaud them for not making me walk around in stations doing anything other than shooting people and making their life miserable in this game. BUT, and this is the big BUT, i fail to see how this won't take away from game development, code refinement and all the other things necessary to keep the actual space part operating. I don't know about you guys but if they get another 20k WoW heads to start humping each other over station services, i can't imagine that won't have an effect on the lagfest TQ reverts to under load of a few dozen players ina system. And i would also imagine that after they get done fornicating over their super sweet avatars, the nerfbat will be in hot persuit to protect people who can't even operate a space ship, which by the way is the core element of a space combat sim.
Matrixcvd Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.12 14:17:00 - [98] Originally by: Grimpak if with ambulation comes a tac-ops center that relays orders and intel to the fleet from a room in a station with a holo-deck and stuff displaying real-time intel updates in a system map, then by the gods, I want that. Now that would be sweet, like coordinating separate fleets, like a galaxy FC or somethin, with different gangs being displayed under different FCs, and ships that can relay enemey tactical information to a display module or something, overlaying different information like cyno fields, ship types scanned out so the commanders can look at the whole combat senario from a constellation stand point. Ok then the walking in stations could be cool
Stitcher Caldari legion of qui Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.11.12 15:05:00 - [99] Originally by: Matrixcvd I fail to see how this won't take away from game development, code refinement and all the other things necessary to keep the actual space part operating. I'm going to assume that you either haven't read my post on the previous page, or else don't believe me. Take it from one who knows, please - the production of a game is not a matter of having a "pool" of identically-talented people that you tap in order to create something. Different people have different talents and experience in different fields. If you want to maintain and run the server, you hire server and database specialists. If you want to bug-hunt, you hire coders. If you want to create something like ambulation, you hire animators, modellers and level designers. These people simply cannot (or at least, should not) do each other's jobs. As such, hiring a team to handle the Ambulation project simply will not detract from the completion of other projects. Second: Past a certain point, throwing more money and people at a job will begin to have minimal returns. The more people you have on board, the more infrastructure they need in order to make sure that they aren't tripping over each other, or cutting corners. Even with that infrastructure in place, there's a limit to how quickly any given issue can be resolevd. So, you hire the optimal number of talented people in order to get the job done, and leave it there - adding any more people wouldn't have a noticeable effect. As far as I've heard, the people behind Ambulation were either purpose-hired for the job, or else weren't actually involved in any other projects anyway. no mnapower was diverted from existing projects, and thus no other projects were affected. As far as I can tell, this is, in effect, a "free" bonus upgrade - the creation of Ambulation will have only a negligible (if that) effect on the handling of other facets of the game. -Stitcher BSc(Hons) Computer Games Design, University of Staffordshire. - The game is not the problem. The problem is that you are not adapting to the game.
Matrixcvd Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.12 16:06:00 - [100] Originally by: Stitcher I'm going to assume that you either haven't read my post on the previous page, or else don't believe me. Take it from one who knows, please - the production of a game is not a matter of having a "pool" of identically-talented people that you tap in order to create something. Different people have different talents and experience in different fields. If you want to maintain and run the server, you hire server and database specialists. If you want to bug-hunt, you hire coders. If you want to create something like ambulation, you hire animators, modellers and level designers. These people simply cannot (or at least, should not) do each other's jobs. As such, hiring a team to handle the Ambulation project simply will not detract from the completion of other projects. Second: Past a certain point, throwing more money and people at a job will begin to have minimal returns. The more people you have on board, the more infrastructure they need in order to make sure that they aren't tripping over each other, or cutting corners. Even with that infrastructure in place, there's a limit to how quickly any given issue can be resolevd. So, you hire the optimal number of talented people in order to get the job done, and leave it there - adding any more people wouldn't have a noticeable effect. As far as I've heard, the people behind Ambulation were either purpose-hired for the job, or else weren't actually involved in any other projects anyway. no mnapower was diverted from existing projects, and thus no other projects were affected. As far as I can tell, this is, in effect, a "free" bonus upgrade - the creation of Ambulation will have only a negligible (if that) effect on the handling of other facets of the game. -Stitcher BSc(Hons) Computer Games Design, University of Staffordshire. Ok maybe I didn't spell it out for you, but it has nothing to do with a talent drain but ROI, Return on Investment. Obviously additional people get hired to address this new content, but that costs money, and even tho they are temporary, permenant code people are going to be needed to maintain upgrade and keep alive the new portion. If this upgrade doesn't entice enough people to sign up and maintain their accounts to justify its exisitence then its a bad investment, and will have wasted resources. I think the bottom line is that most of the current community would like to see increasing the handling capacity and code optimization so the game plays better under all kinds of conditions than goofying off in station, where there is no shooting people or rocks. I mean is the Beverley Hills Plastic Surgeon or Vidal Sasoon Stylist gonna play eve so they can give vitrual face lifts and Buffon hair dews to space pirates? Second, the content is being pitched to the WoW crowd and to other MMOers who like to walk around and interact socially, and very limited interaction was mentioned to improve/explore new avenues to affect the core gameplay, which is space combat. if they came out and said "Ambulance is going to do this and that or the core mechanics" I say all for it, but wasting time coming up with an interface and a graphical response where i can get virtualy drunk, i would rather spend the 20$ bucks and get drunk in RL.
Bolt Zapper Gallente Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.12 16:23:00 - [101] Originally by: Grimpak 2) is it possible that in stations with larger open spaces (as in thos gallente ones with green areas), to produce controlled weather patterns? For example, not mimicking the earth-like patterns but at a given time, the blue sky that you see displayed holographically in a very high ceiling starts shifting to a cloudy sky, but in a way that you see it change by a square each time or smth. 2+) rain in open areas like bazaar/market and whatsoever would give a nice effect too. Well, stations are out beyond their planets' atmospheres, and as such any view out of the window of a station will look onto a starry sky (such as you see around your ship), not an atmosphere with weather. Think about what you saw through windows in the Death Stars in the Star Wars movies, it's the same idea. Originally by: Stitcher -Stitcher BSc(Hons) Computer Games Design, University of Staffordshire. You can do a degree in Computer Games Design? Wish I'd known that a couple of years back before I started university!
Pitt Bull Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.12 19:57:00 - [102] Originally by: Red Dot'Clicking How will eve differ from "second life" then. If I wanted to simply walk around a world dressed as a cat I would go play that. Its a sandbox with no gameplay except what you make and it has a far bigger user base than eve. I just dont find 3d chatrooms fun. There has to be something to do other than sit in a station and chat. Guess I am just not the sociable type, I want gaemplay. What he said.
Pitt Bull Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.12 20:00:00 - [103] Originally by: 000Hunter000 I'm still amazed at how some people resist any form of change, sure if it means ur fav ship gets the nerfbat to it, i can imagine ur a bit ****ed, but this stuff is just added, and added FOR FREE i may add. Lol, maybe free if your parents have been paying your subscription, but I'm pretty sure CCP is wasting millions of dollars on this patch.
Kyra Felann Gallente Red Eye .Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.12 20:49:00 - [104] Originally by: Claude Leon Eve will now become "Second Life" with guns. Second Life already has guns. You fail.
Taison AB INITO KIN-DZA-DZA	Posted - 2007.11.12 21:19:00 - [105] The op raises a very good point here. Sure the Ambulation itself sounds really good. Avatars, walking in stations and so on... But i actually dont see the purpose on all this... I mean right now, EvE is what it is. A log in get into your ship and do something game. If u logged in u are forced to do something whith your ship. Unless u are just a trading alt who seats on a station 24/7 buys and sells. In all other situations u have to go out in your ship and interact with others. U can get ganked as soon as u undock even in 1.0. Thats what the game is about. not ganking but the fact of constant interaction with the universe. U are constantly pressed into this outer world by the game mechanics and there are others there that can interact with you. Now lets look at Ambulation. What actually does it add? There are 2 ways. First one is - it adds just a new feature that lets u and others have a look at your avatar. Well nive - but what for? Ok i will try it once - i will have my adrinaline push when i see myself as a avatar. Thei will be nice. But what then? 1 time look is good - but only for 5 mins. after that i am back in my ship flying around and do whatever i liked to do all the time. And i doubt i will go into the station for a second time. Why? cuz its boring and doesn\|t actually add something to the actual game exept time wasting. The second way would be - Ambulation adds some playing content besides the gameplay we experience now. But lets have a look at it. What could ambulation really add? again - 2 ways. Either it just expands the current features in a new graphical way. So i now have to GO to the market to trade there.. Did i hear someone saying timewaste? yup it is. So Ambulation, if it should make any sence at all should add some game expending gameplay so it gets interesting. Something that adds to the gameplay, that lets you spend the time for a reason, not just for a 5 min look on the new graphics engine. Now that could be some new content. Possibilities are - station casino, FPS trainer, sabotage missions inside the station - add whatever MMO content u want. But what does that deliver to the current player database? EvE is now as it is. A unique space playing game with constant player interaction in space with dangers, pvp, and much loved stuff. Now imagine one of your corpmates during an CTA says - sorry, i am having a nice round of poker at the online casino. WTF? And what is worst - u cant do nothing against it. In current eve - people are hunting. But when enemies come into system they have to stop hunting and either hide or actually fight. But what happens in a station? The people are safe and get some nice gameplay there with fun. No risk. So ok - we say thats not right. But that would force to add some FPS action to ambulation so they cant actually hide in a station and get fun there....But that wouldnt be EvE anymore, would it? So the question is - if Ambulation is just a 5 min WohOO moment for players to look at their avatars - is it worth the effort? Wouldnt be the ressources placed in other departments contribute much more for the actual gameplay? And if Ambulation really adds some more and new gameplay outside the space to the game - wouldnt it distract the players from the actual game? Wouldnt the raise a split between the outa space and inside station guys? Would that be really good? I have doubts although i am looking forward to the 5 mins of fun seeing my avatar. PS - sorry for bad english. I tried as hard as i can
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.12 22:04:00 - [106] Ambulation involves a lot of work going into the new whitewolf MMO, its being done one way or another. Now do you want it to yield SOMETHING for eve or not? --------------------------------- Thorax type R&R. (Ribbed and R rated)
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.12 22:10:00 - [107] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 12/11/2007 22:11:14 Originally by: Taison So the question is - if Ambulation is just a 5 min WohOO moment for players to look at their avatars - is it worth the effort? I'm a little afraid of that. When people can walk, I think they'll all try to find where is the "equip" button and try to pvp/pve around. It's natural for a very large part of the player base. As a player, I will go here and there, "explore" a little new places but if I have no rewards (isk wise), will I stay in station or would I go in space doing missions, ratting, mining, producing, trading ? I can't say. Originally by: Taison Wouldnt be the ressources placed in other departments contribute much more for the actual gameplay? It's a sort of "beta" for WW's WoD MMO. So I still think Vampires and Werewolves running would have to fight against themselves. And if it's in this game, maybe it'll be in ours... Anyway, I don't think architects, level designers and animation people have to make in the space game. I think the indoor game takes really different ressources. I see it as a sort of crossover, ressource sharing or whatever you name it. You know, every single sci-fi fan would want to walk in a station, take a ship, orbit a comet, go in a nebula, land on a planet, say hello and come back to his station. We all dreamt of this game. I can't say I 'll love "Ambulation I", but I'm sure I'll love when more and more things comes. Like CCP did for the space game. I really hope the space game will not be left for too much ambulation stuff. Future will tell. 2isk
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.12 22:22:00 - [108] Originally by: Nicho Void And before you argue that they'll sit docked in station and never leave, I doubt it. The mere concept of having to WALK vs. RUN will explode their minds. This made me think of that. Today, we have missioning players. We have industrialists. Miners. PVPers. Will we see "stationers" ? People that'll dock in ONE station and never get out ? Do you think this could happen ? And 0.0... Will it be phantom stations ? Will we see a "hologram crowd" from other stations ? OooOooooh I think I have an idea there :) 2isk
SiJira	Posted - 2007.11.12 22:35:00 - [109] Originally by: Taison ignorant post read some dev posts on ambulation and think with the head between your ears and not the epeen - what age are you in? the devs stated and there is no roleplay or logical reason to believe otherwise that any station options from ambulation will add to the game and be optional instead of forcing those who do not want to partake in it to do something extra ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem
Stitcher Caldari legion of qui Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.11.12 22:36:00 - [110] Originally by: Matrixcvd it has nothing to do with a talent drain but ROI, Return on Investment. Obviously additional people get hired to address this new content, but that costs money, and even tho they are temporary, permenant code people are going to be needed to maintain upgrade and keep alive the new portion. If this upgrade doesn't entice enough people to sign up and maintain their accounts to justify its existence then its a bad investment, and will have wasted resources. But how does that affect us as the players? It's CCP's money to spend. They're enthusiastic about this project, they're going ahead with it, it doesn't cost us anything extra (notice they've not asked for extra money to pay for Ambulation) and, as I've detailed above, it in no way detracts from the refinement of the existing game. Far from it, if anything it measurably improves the game's potential lifespan and market demographic thereby ensuring that the money injected into it will at least be returned sufficiently to break even, and that's a worst-case scenario. More than likely, there will be a rather considerable profit as a direct result of Ambulation - all of which stays within CCP and affects THEIR overall bank balance, not ours..... so where's the problem? Even if it does turn out to be a wasted investment, at the end of the day none of that wasted investment will come back to touch us in any way shape or form, so why complain? Return on Investment becomes meaningless if you have not in fact invested. Quote: most of the current community would like to see increasing the handling capacity and code optimization so the game plays better under all kinds of conditions than goofying off in station, where there is no shooting people or rocks. I mean is the Beverley Hills Plastic Surgeon or Vidal Sasoon Stylist gonna play eve so they can give vitrual face lifts and Buffon hair dews to space pirates? And for the last fething time: *solving those problems is in no way hindered by the development of ambulation. Quote:* Second, the content is being pitched to the WoW crowd and to other MMOers who like to walk around and interact socially, and very limited interaction was mentioned to improve/explore new avenues to affect the core gameplay, which is space combat. Funny, I consider myself to be a really hardcore PvP type, and I'm as excited about getting to play dress-up with my character as the next guy. I've coped perfectly happily without ambulation up until now... this is a new toy to play with. One that makes me happy. Besides, is there anything necessarily WRONG with getting to walk around and interact in a virtual "face to face" meeting for a change? Why exactly is this at all a problem for you? Are you so ultra-conservative that you're going to claim that the influx of new players who have not played EVE before is automatically a bad thing without giving them a chance? Newsflash - not everybody in WoW is a nasal-voice 12-year-old kid with Asperger's syndrome and an obsession with "raids" and "epic loot". The vast majority of WoW players, I would hazard, are perfectly reasonable folks who play the game for the social aspect of it. Many of them may well have been dissuaded from trying EVE out because of its faceless nature. Furthermore, if you need proof that EVE has its own share of immature feth-wipes well.... just look around. These forums bring the worst out in some of our players. Quote: if they came out and said "Ambulation is going to do this and that or the core mechanics" I say all for it, but wasting time coming up with an interface and a graphical response where i can get virtually drunk, i would rather spend the 20$ bucks and get drunk in RL. But... you don't have to spend any money or time on this. This is FREE! None of the effort or money being put into this expansion has come directly out of your pocket, nor will you have to pay, so why are you complaining? - The game is not the problem. The problem is that you are not adapting to the game.
Arachidamia The Ninja Coalition Drunken N Disorderly	Posted - 2007.11.12 22:42:00 - [111] Well i for one am very much looking foward to ambulation. It potentially adds a massive amount to the game. Now I just need to find a way to use my ninja skills to spy on people in stations... ;)
Peter VonThal Raygun Technologies	Posted - 2007.11.12 22:50:00 - [112] Many of you only see EVE as a spaceship pew-pew game. You think that attracting players from other games is a bad thing, because they are not worthy of EVE for some reason. You think that internet walking is waste of time and that it will destroy the rest of the gameplay. Fine, you can feel that way. But I imagine the creators of this game had a lot more in mind than us being stuck in a pod ship forever with a 2D picture of our face being our identity. I think they wanted to create a rounded game world with many things to do for different types of people. Things like ambulation and planetary interaction are the next steps in that. Will it bring more "lame" people to the game? Probably. Will it add immersion and bring some "cool" people in from other games? Probably. Will it subtract from the current state of the game? I can't see how. I will continue to play EVE whether or not they add ambulation, planetary interaction and whatever else is coming down the pipe. However, I think I will have even more fun once those things are in.
Stitcher Caldari legion of qui Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.11.12 22:53:00 - [113] Quote: if they came out and said "Ambulation is going to do this and that or the core mechanics" I say all for it, but wasting time coming up with an interface and a graphical response where i can get virtually drunk, i would rather spend the 20$ bucks and get drunk in RL. I fear that I may also have missed a perfect opportunity for a "can I have your stuff" here, too.... - The game is not the problem. The problem is that you are not adapting to the game.
Caine Azuris Gallente Killson Corp Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.12 23:05:00 - [114] Dude teh hell with Trinity ......... I want Ambulation .... dude .... READY ROOMS!! OMGPWN!!! That alone is badass ...... I hope we can decorate it or somthing with like phat lewtz and mods. I hate RPers but I love the whole thing about ambulation ....... oh and BARS, OMG OMG OMFG BAAAARSS!!! Dudes ............. BARS!. Comon need I say more. OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHH!!! STRIPPERS!!!! z0MG!~ Heart pounds Jesus I get so excited thinking about Ambulation. Especially when I think about how ******* epically big my Epeen thanatos will look inside station. Im gonna stand out front of it and when someone walks by im gonna scream ......... HEY BET YOU WISH YOURS WAS JUST AS BIG EH!!!?? I love caps. ------------
Gawker	Posted - 2007.11.12 23:16:00 - [115] Originally by: Amarria Black Originally by: Gawker Originally by: Red Dot'Clicking How will eve differ from "second life" then. If I wanted to simply walk around a world dressed as a cat I would go play that. Its a sandbox with no gameplay except what you make and it has a far bigger user base than eve. I just dont find 3d chatrooms fun. There has to be something to do other than sit in a station and chat. Guess I am just not the sociable type, I want gaemplay. Have you ever played Second Life? You mean Furries and (insert word for recreational device that resembles male-specific anatomy). I managed to play all of 5 minutes. It's physically impossible for EVE to get that bad. Exactly what I was trying to get at. I haven't played it, but a lot of my favourite blogs make a habit out of poking fun at it. It's like every social outcast/fetishist you've ever known thrown into a bubble where they can "be whatever they want to be." cringe So yea the SL comparisons just make me sad. Let's stick to WoW k?
Jennai Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.12 23:58:00 - [116] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn This made me think of that. Today, we have missioning players. We have industrialists. Miners. PVPers. Will we see "stationers" ? People that'll dock in ONE station and never get out ? Do you think this could happen ? they already exist. I once went six months without undocking, and I know a guy who went over a year. if you're an industrialist in a minor hub station that has both available factory slots and a decent mineral trade volume, you don't need to undock except to go buy new skills or blueprints.
Galen Darksmith Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.11.12 23:59:00 - [117] Can't wait for ambulation. I'm tired of a 2-d face being my character. it'd be nice to have a full avatar. And if having extra options somehow ruins the game for you, by all means, please go.
Araxmas The Blue Dagger Mercenery Agency	Posted - 2007.11.13 00:08:00 - [118] Originally by: Pitt Bull Originally by: 000Hunter000 I'm still amazed at how some people resist any form of change, sure if it means ur fav ship gets the nerfbat to it, i can imagine ur a bit **ed, but this stuff is just added, and added FOR FREE i may add. Lol, maybe free if your parents have been paying your subscription, but I'm pretty sure CCP is wasting millions of dollars on this patch. Yes to you CCP** is wasting millions of dollars...in what way does that affect you? --------
gpfwestie	Posted - 2007.11.13 00:44:00 - [119] Originally by: Stitcher Second: Past a certain point, throwing more money and people at a job will begin to have minimal returns. The more people you have on board, the more infrastructure they need in order to make sure that they aren't tripping over each other, or cutting corners. Even with that infrastructure in place, there's a limit to how quickly any given issue can be resolevd. So, you hire the optimal number of talented people in order to get the job done, and leave it there - adding any more people wouldn't have a noticeable effect. Put each of the talented people you have in charge of a small group of newly hired code monkeys. The expertise will naturally filter down, and the code monkeys will become more useful in time, the better ones become leaders of other teams. So you can add people and have a noticeable effect, but it requires careful planning to survive the initial downturn in production.
Sean Drake Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.11.13 00:58:00 - [120] Ok everyone is getting way to excited about paying to beta test CCP's new game engine and let's have a reality check ppl this is going to cause problems for eve in one way or another. Remember the downtime and horrid server lag when somthing simple is implemented now imagine what can go wrong when you bolt on a beta version of another game? Not to mention the very vaild concern that ccp continue to dumb the game down for mass market appeal oh and i can just imagine how much the isk farmers/sellers are looking foreward to this Yeah i'm a cynic but frankly afetr playing EvE for this long it's deserved If Goons AND BoB are agreeing with each other that your idea is stupid, it's probably stupid.

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