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CCP's total apathy toward disabled gamers.

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spambunker	Posted - 2007.11.20 09:53:00 - [1] A friend of mine and I were looking for a new game in January, 2007, and decided to give eve a try. I was enjoying it enough to keep it up, but he had major issues with it: he is color deficient. In short, the vast majority of the game is inaccessible to him. He has had to play a very conservative (read, boring) game and avoid the pvp world entirely. We have recently been doing missions together to try to find something to do while we train up for non-combat carreers. Last week, we were in a level 4 mission. Nothing new there - we've done somewhere around 50 together. I'll spare you the details, but in short, when we hit something new - warp scramblers - he was completely at a loss. Being color deficient means that he cannot distinguish the enemy with the warp scrambler from all the guys who are just shooting at him. He lost a 200M isk ship. In order for him to be playing at all, he'd traded me cash in another game for eve isk. His tolerance for eve and especially CCP after about a year of his complaints falling upon deaf ears was more than enough to get him to drop the game, but I applied the thumbscrews and we kept at it despite his ire. I loaned him another 200M, and this time he dropped in the best warp core stabilizers he could get his hands on and still have an operative ship. Despite looking at screen captures for an hour and going through a book of photo filter gels until we found one that would make the sharpest contrast between misc game effects and the warp scram effect, that ship dropped as well. It didn't dawn on me at all until just a few minutes ago that I've never seen him mad. Not in the slightest. It's a moment of shaken faith when a rare person like that goes almost violently ballistic. It's more difficult for a couple reasons: 1) I totally understand his frustration. I, too, have color deficiencies. Not as bad as his, but I recall how impossible it was NOT to take it personally when Homeland FINALLY came out and I FINALLY had it in hand.... and 10 minutes later was posting it on ebay because I couldn't even finish the tutorials. 2) After four years in operation, CCP has had more than enough time to address these issues. After all, more than 10% of gamers are color deficient - why wouldn't they want to address it? The answer is because artists are rather hubristic in this regard. If it isn't pretty to them, they don't want it in their game. I've been working with game artists for a decade. This is an observation for long personal experience. 3) Incidents like this grind into you the fact that what could very easily be a non-issue is in fact an impairing disability ONLY BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE CCP DON'T TAKE IT SERIOUSLY. Think about it. If Departments of Transportation hang street lighting that is exactly the same color as a red light (to a red-green anomolous dichromatic color deficient like my friend and I) then driving at night suddenly becomes a game of spot the stop light. If you miss one, you die. There are entire areas of the city where I went to college where I can not drive at night. Nothing in my experience has ever shown me a situation where color deficiency had to be a handicap. It is entirely in the hands of those who design color-dependent systems. Architects are required by law to memorize reams of handicapped-access laws, but an art department can't be bothered to run their stuff by the one or two guys in the office who could tell them they're in need of some minor adjustments? I have been that voice in every games company for which I have worked, and it's amazing how much resistance is given to altering something that 'looks great' for 'just a small fraction of the potential buyers.' It's insensitive. It's socially irresponsible. What do you say to the guy in the wheelchair who wants to get on the bus?
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2007.11.20 10:02:00 - [2] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 20/11/2007 10:04:31 First: "In order for him to be playing at all, he'd traded me cash in another game for eve isk. ", so you're an isk seller. Nice. No way around it, you are. Second: It's not CCPs problem that you're sick. If you're a diabetic, should CCP make mandatory breaks(about 5 times a day) so you remember to take your insulin and eat? How about Someone who's blind? Surely he should enjoy EVE through an IMMERSIVE sound world. See where this is going? It's not CCPs problem to fix all problems of people. If the game doesn't fit you or your friend, go to another game. Not to mention, NOONE in EVE knows who's warp scrambling, it's a well documented "Please give us indicators" problem. ALSO, game artists don't want it in their game if it's not pretty? Where the hell have you been working at? You sound like one of those suits who sit in conferences all day and THINK they know what making a game is about. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Alrich	Posted - 2007.11.20 10:02:00 - [3] can you see the effect of warp scramblers? why dont you just kill all the small ones and be done with it? the effects is hard to see for everyone and in pve you dont need them. kill all the small things and be able to warp again, tank and dont warp out or kill everything faster than they kill you... that is three ways of doing the thing you tried, all of them easier and your handicap wont matter
Rellik B00n Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.20 10:05:00 - [4] I do not feel CCP have deliberately made the game hard for your friend. That said please evemail me in game I have the complete solution to this problem for you. Yes seriously. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Kaakao Insidious Existence	Posted - 2007.11.20 10:06:00 - [5] What can I say, other than life is not fair. Im left handed and that already ****es me off sometimes. Scissors for one can be really uncomfortable to use as they are made for right handed people. Many people have complained about things like you mentioned, warp scramble effect can be hard to spot eaven for people with near perfect eye sight. Another thing that comes to my mind is modules. Sometimes its really hard to see if the module is blinking green or not. ---- wtb signature
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.11.20 10:07:00 - [6] I can certainly understand your concerns, however you've chosen the wrong example. With regard to scrambling NPCs in missions, I know of no-one who actually looks for the warp scrambling effect to identify which frigate is scrambling them. No-one. You just make sure you know what the names are of the NPC frigate types that can scramble and you kill them first. It really is as simple as that. Now with regard to colour-blindness causing issues with the game, I can see where that could cause problems. The module activation flash for example is difficult enough to see sometimes with normal vision let alone if you were red/green colour-blind, and there are numerous other examples that all should be looked at. Dealing with warp acrambling frigates is easy though. Just kill them all first and you'll be fine. :) Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Vriomiunx	Posted - 2007.11.20 10:13:00 - [7] I dunno, but here you have to by law make it available to minor disabilities. I don't know how it is in Iceland though. :)
Mark Lucius Forbidden Lore	Posted - 2007.11.20 10:13:00 - [8] While I agree that certain effects in the game need reworking because they are badly visible or just plain bad, I don't agree with your opinion that the game/ccp is bad because your buddy lost 200mil ships because he could not see a scrambler effect. A browse to certain websites that tell you about eve missions could have told you and your buddy which ships do the scrambling so you can disable them first (cue helpful links). I am sorry that you guys can get so upset with the game. I hope you will take my advice and maybe contact some developers with simple yet friendly suggestions (I assume you did already though). ---
mechtech Silver Snake Enterprise	Posted - 2007.11.20 10:13:00 - [9] Originally by: Alex Tremayne You just make sure you know what the names are of the NPC frigate types that can scramble and you kill them first. It really is as simple as that. I mean really guys, even non color deficient players have to do this. I'm sorry for your friend's trouble, but you are not at a dead end, not even near it.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.11.20 10:15:00 - [10] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 20/11/2007 10:07:45 Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 20/11/2007 10:04:31 First: "In order for him to be playing at all, he'd traded me cash in another game for eve isk. ", so you're an isk seller. Nice. No way around it, you are. Second: It's not CCPs problem that you're sick. If you're a diabetic, should CCP make mandatory breaks(about 5 times a day) so you remember to take your insulin and eat? How about Someone who's blind? Surely he should enjoy EVE through an IMMERSIVE sound world. See where this is going? It's not CCPs problem to fix all problems of people. If the game doesn't fit you or your friend, go to another game. Not to mention, NOONE in EVE knows who's warp scrambling, it's a well documented "Please give us indicators" problem. ALSO, "game artists don't want it in their(as if) game if it's not pretty"? Where the hell have you been working at? You sound like one of those suits who sit in conferences all day and THINK they know what making a game is about. Harsh and to the point... that's good. And what, he's so far gone he can't see colors at all? Just join a 0.0 corp... if there's a + he's a friend, if there's a - he not Originally by: Liz Kali Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking Weekly The Tick quote... "I can't lose my name! It's on all my stationary!!" ~The Tick

Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.20 10:24:00 - [11] No, this definitely goes under the 'apathy towards all gamers' column. It's ok though, those of use who are paying attention know the UI is getting overhauled, with better status effects on the way sometime after Trinity. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Jaikar Isillia principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.20 10:25:00 - [12] The OP is obviously a troll.
Valron Xizor The Xizor Cartel	Posted - 2007.11.20 10:34:00 - [13] Man this is a tough one. TBH, I cant see how any game developer can build a game to suit every kind of disability. I mean If I was in an accident and lost my arms, would I expect game devs to create a new interface? I think game devs have to build a game that is playable by regular folks and perhaps it's up to the third parties to create something that caters for individual disabilities. I mean where do you draw the line? there are so many different disabilities out there so how can you create a game that caters for all? Back to my analogy, if I lost my arms, and really wanted to play eve, I think the responsibility to come up with a solution would be mine, not CCP's
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.11.20 10:35:00 - [14] Edited by: N1fty on 20/11/2007 10:36:13 I dont know the nature of your friends colour deficiency, but in pvp you can change the background and symbol colours for enemy ships. Maybe that would help? Also, as already mentioned, EVERYONE has great difficulty picking out which enemy is tackling them, at some point I am sure CCP will add a scrambling indicator (probably with the upcoming UI overhaul). For now the best advice is to do like everyone else and look on guides like Eve-Info to see which rats are the tacklers and kill them first by name. Lastly I would also like to POINT OUT that CCP has made changes to the game to benefit people with impaired vision. A good example of this is changing the way skills look when they are trained or untrained. They used to be red or green, now they are a green tick, or red cross. And an extra symbol of yellow circle was added for the next skill needed in a tree. So CCP is taking steps to make Eve more accessible. ============================================
Seroquel	Posted - 2007.11.20 10:35:00 - [15] I do think game makers should consider older persons and persons with disabilities whenever possible. Its not like they have to provide oxygen machines and heart rate monitors to make some of the interfaces less painful to use. (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
Kappas. Galaxy Punks Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.11.20 10:38:00 - [16] Originally by: spambunker snip because i couldn't quote and write a replysnip You know I have friends who are disabled, and none of them go crying through life. Life is tough for everyone, some more than others. It is not the end of the world if you can't play a game. Should CCP cater for dual arm amputees as well? Where does it end? __________________ Galaxy Punks are recruiting, click here for more info
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.11.20 10:46:00 - [17] I'm blind, deaf, dumb and I want CCP to fix Eve so I can play! I also don't have any fignerz oer tos so i tipng wif mai nozz. Originally by: Liz Kali Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking Weekly The Tick quote... "I can't lose my name! It's on all my stationary!!" ~The Tick
Bellicose Gallente Beets and Gravy Syndicate Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.11.20 10:51:00 - [18] after the last change to the UI i have a hard time telling if some mods are active or not outta cap well i guess it was active Your signature image exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Who needs a showel when you have a nice big cannon?
Icarus Starkiller Minmatar	Posted - 2007.11.20 10:54:00 - [19] I brought a person into the game who is also red/green colorblind, something I, as a fully chromatic see'er, could not 'get' since I have always been able to see those colors. With a lot of work I set up his overview settings to deal with his color handicap and he has managed relatively well, even getting out into PvP. Since he considers every 'frig size' ship that's nearby and blinking as a scrambler he focuses first on them by range. Yes, I can understand that modern computing with it's 65-odd million hues can be a headache for the vision-impared, I also understand how difficult it could be for a game company to design an interface that deals with all of the possible permutations of perceptive handicap. Luckily Eve does not rely on its buggy sound so being deaf is only a voice-comms handicap if no one is typing what's going on (something a good FC will dictate). If there is enough need for a response to color blind players a third party person could be licenced to code an interface mod to address it. Otherwise, sorry to say, CCP cannot be held to coding it because as soon as they do some other perceptively handicapped person would be screaming 'discriminatory adaptation' that does not include them. - Life is pain...anyone who says differently is selling something.
Kayna Eelai Gallente Shadow Legion Covenant Paxton Federation	Posted - 2007.11.20 10:59:00 - [20] OP is a troll. any1 who did 50 missions already and who plays since january would a) know what ships are tacklers BY THEIR NAMES b) and/or know the mission database websites and check there c) have enough ISK to not worry about a mere 200M isk ship. fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)

Banana Torres The Green Banana Corporation	Posted - 2007.11.20 11:13:00 - [21] Originally by: Kayna Eelai OP is a troll. any1 who did 50 missions already and who plays since january would a) know what ships are tacklers BY THEIR NAMES b) and/or know the mission database websites and check there c) have enough ISK to not worry about a mere 200M isk ship. I agree. I run missions with the view zoomed way out I don't need to see when I am warp scrambled. I know when I am, as the post I am quoting says, you know cause there is a scrambling frigate in range.
Whoa Bundy hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.11.20 11:36:00 - [22] Originally by: spambunker It's a moment of shaken faith when a rare person like that goes almost violently ballistic. Oh noes! If the game does that to him, maybe it's best he quits before someone gets hurt! By the way... can I have his colorful stuff? .................... Speed tank works very well... That's because your target can't hit you as your sorry butt tucks your tail between your legs while you wail out into the distance, sissy boy
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.20 11:38:00 - [23] Edited by: Malcanis on 20/11/2007 11:39:20 Originally by: spambunker A friend of mine and I were looking for a new game in January, 2007, and decided to give eve a try. I was enjoying it enough to keep it up, but he had major issues with it: he is color deficient. In short, the vast majority of the game is inaccessible to him. He has had to play a very conservative (read, boring) game and avoid the pvp world entirely. We have recently been doing missions together to try to find something to do while we train up for non-combat carreers. Last week, we were in a level 4 mission. Nothing new there - we've done somewhere around 50 together. I'll spare you the details, but in short, when we hit something new - warp scramblers - he was completely at a loss. Being color deficient means that he cannot distinguish the enemy with the warp scrambler from all the guys who are just shooting at him. He lost a 200M isk ship. In order for him to be playing at all, he'd traded me cash in another game for eve isk. His tolerance for eve and especially CCP after about a year of his complaints falling upon deaf ears was more than enough to get him to drop the game, but I applied the thumbscrews and we kept at it despite his ire. I loaned him another 200M, and this time he dropped in the best warp core stabilizers he could get his hands on and still have an operative ship. Despite looking at screen captures for an hour and going through a book of photo filter gels until we found one that would make the sharpest contrast between misc game effects and the warp scram effect, that ship dropped as well. It didn't dawn on me at all until just a few minutes ago that I've never seen him mad. Not in the slightest. It's a moment of shaken faith when a rare person like that goes almost violently ballistic. It's more difficult for a couple reasons: 1) I totally understand his frustration. I, too, have color deficiencies. Not as bad as his, but I recall how impossible it was NOT to take it personally when Homeland FINALLY came out and I FINALLY had it in hand.... and 10 minutes later was posting it on ebay because I couldn't even finish the tutorials. 2) After four years in operation, CCP has had more than enough time to address these issues. After all, more than 10% of gamers are color deficient - why wouldn't they want to address it? The answer is because artists are rather hubristic in this regard. If it isn't pretty to them, they don't want it in their game. I've been working with game artists for a decade. This is an observation for long personal experience. 3) Incidents like this grind into you the fact that what could very easily be a non-issue is in fact an impairing disability ONLY BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE CCP DON'T TAKE IT SERIOUSLY. Think about it. If Departments of Transportation hang street lighting that is exactly the same color as a red light (to a red-green anomolous dichromatic color deficient like my friend and I) then driving at night suddenly becomes a game of spot the stop light. If you miss one, you die. There are entire areas of the city where I went to college where I can not drive at night. Nothing in my experience has ever shown me a situation where color deficiency had to be a handicap. It is entirely in the hands of those who design color-dependent systems. Architects are required by law to memorize reams of handicapped-access laws, but an art department can't be bothered to run their stuff by the one or two guys in the office who could tell them they're in need of some minor adjustments? I have been that voice in every games company for which I have worked, and it's amazing how much resistance is given to altering something that 'looks great' for 'just a small fraction of the potential buyers.' It's insensitive. It's socially irresponsible. What do you say to the guy in the wheelchair who wants to get on the bus? http://eve-survival.org/ Edit: I can see which ships are scramming me either. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
VicturusTeSaluto	Posted - 2007.11.20 11:39:00 - [24] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Second: It's not CCPs problem that you're sick. Color blindness is not a sickness, assbag.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.20 11:40:00 - [25] Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto Originally by: Sheriff Jones Second: It's not CCPs problem that you're sick. Color blindness is not a sickness, assbag. It's no more CCP's fault that he's disabled than it's your fault he's an ass-bag. Both you and CCP reacted the same way. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
R0ot Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.20 11:46:00 - [26] The warp scrambler effects are pretty hard to see, but as already mentioned, shoot the small ships first then you wont have a problem. Or look at the hundreds of mission guides, find out which ones scramble and kill them first. I personally play with effects off so I don't even get the effect of the warp scrambler and other modules. I don't think they've made the game difficult for your friend, you guys just didn't do enough research on the missions, if you didn't know you were going to be scrammed then that sucks, but it happens. If you did then its your own mistake, suck it up get a new ship and continue. To say that your friend can't participate in pvp is a bit of a joke tbh. Not hard to keep your log open and see when your getting shot or scrambled. ------------------------------------------------------------------
Chinua Suren Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.11.20 12:01:00 - [27] Originally by: Malcanis snip It's no more CCP's fault that he's disabled snip Well...is colour blindness passed on to offspring? In that case it's his parents fault! --- None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. û Goethe
Amri taltiran Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.20 12:05:00 - [28] like a previus poster said, it is quite hard to see who is warp scrambling unless you scroll really close and can see the blue pulsing thing to one of the frigs. But i could agree that there should be a way to make it easier to actully see who is scrambling you on a mission then having to do that. as it is quite hard when ya got alot of frigs shooting at ya. But at the same time like previus posters also have said, shoot the frigs is the first thing you have to do on a lvl 4. if you don't know that mission well enogh.
Red Desire	Posted - 2007.11.20 12:13:00 - [29] Question : He said he "traded" some money from other game to ISK ?????????? WTF that is breaching of EULA, that's ISK selling!! There you have it CCP black on white, take the appropriate measures. And yes, I lost 1 raven before learning the golden rule, kill frigs !!
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.11.20 12:13:00 - [30] My one highschool teacher was colorblind.... he always thought his car was green... it was brown. Originally by: Liz Kali Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking Weekly The Tick quote... "I can't lose my name! It's on all my stationary!!" ~The Tick



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