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Estel Arador Minmatar AFK	Posted - 2007.11.25 12:50:00 - [91] Originally by: DHB WildCat This is due entirely to scripts. Your logic is flawed. Scripts will apply to mods which can do two things. At the moment they can do both things at full efficiency. With scripts, they can either do two things at half efficiency or one at full efficiency. This means that after the patch you'll need to modules to get the same effect as you have with one module now. How is it "due entirely to scripts" then? The modules are getting nerfed to oblivion instead of getting boosted as you seem to implying. =AFK=
Armoured C Gallente Globaltech Industries Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2007.11.25 12:54:00 - [92] yor forgetting that just because it a reasonablly young player they could have skilled up for a specific ship which makes them powerful at the ship yes you can use more ships with your more skills but for someone who has specifially skilled up in trained up to max in a ship then they are going to be a threat weather they have smaller or more points than you logic is flawed
kla samon	Posted - 2007.11.25 12:58:00 - [93] In the old days this was indeed the case, but I would argue that ships in the old days were very unbalanced and not much attention was paid to role specific classes. Theoretically, each ship is designed to fit a role in a fleet - not to fly solo and I think ccp is, over time, taking that approach. I know real life comparisons are lame but in real life you will never see a carrier or a battleship alone on the battlefield. They are surrounded by a fleet of EW, anti missile, anti aircraft and a variety of other logistics and role specific ships that support and defend them so they can do their job of bringing in the heavy fire power. Granted dreads are now pretty much the new modern day equivalent to battleships.
Gragnor Ordos Humanitas Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.25 13:15:00 - [94] More to the point: do CCP care about the older player? Personally, I have to start questioning whether they do. Artillery is copping amassive nerf here, YET AGAIN. Look at the Minnie maurander, we cannot give you massive alpha any more so we give you a tracking boost. To the CCP design genius's I ask this: what use is a tracking boost when it takes me twice as long to lock up a cruiser? By the time I have locked it - its already dictating the range of the engagement. CCP really dont care what the "vet" thinks which is why all the "vet" ships like carriers etc are getting nerfed. Their view of the game is for lots of close range long time engagements with multiple players; something they have made abundantly clear. They are not interested in solo PvP. They are not interested in diversity - they want everyone to be fitted the same way. That's short range tank and gank. Their view of the game is for small short range raiding gangs and they will nerf and chip away at anything that doesn't fit into it. Minmitar ships are the classic example. When was the last time you saw autopests in gangs? Be honest, when? Me, I haven't seen one for months and I refuse to use a minnie autocannon bs due to poor large gun tracking, lesser dps and weaker than competitor tank. I would be better off in a blasterthron or a dommi. I now have no choice BUT to nano up in a smaller faster ship if I want to fly minnie ships. The constant nerfing of alpha strike by CCP confirms to me that they see artillery as EVIL. Alpha strike is slowly and constantly being whittled away as an effective combat tool which removes a distinct game style advantageous to the older, more skilled player. CCP don't care about it beacuse its what they want to acheive from a business strategy perspective. Changing these mods is simply CCP's way of going about their vision for the game. The trouble is, in ignoring the older player, they disenfranchise them. CCP doesn't care as they want more newer players. The business strategy is not retain the older, harder to service customer base but get the new punter in, hold onto them for six months and then let them go. That's a change from the past. If older players continually wtfpwn noobs then this won't be achieved. So expect more nerfage of sniping in particular. And CCP will not care what you say, how correct or how reasoned and logical your arguement is; that's the game they want. IMHO CCP does not respect sniping battleships. The constant changes and nerfing, making them more and more vulnerable to smaller specialised ships which they cannot deal with is part of their strategy. I still cannot believe an interceptor post Trinity will be able to scramble a battleship and the Battleship's ONLY defence will be drones. Damps wont work as the inty will have a quicker lock time and will simply orbit closer if you do reduce the range. Smartbombs will be of limited use as the range of scramblers is being lengthened. ECM won't work as its being buffed for ECM ships only. Nos and Nuetralisers have been nerfed against smaller ships so they won't work. That leaves drones - which quite interestingly are getting changed as well. All the inty has to do is run away from the drones while killing them, something it is perfectly equipped to do. So, how does a lone uber skilled and fitted bs defend itself against a lone tackling inty. The answer is that it cannot. The inty just won't be able to break the bs's tank. The day of the battleship as the main combat ship in Eve is dying. And CCP doesn't care because that's the way they want it. It is the main reason for the constant nerfage of battleships combat effectiveness against smaller ships.
Armoured C Gallente Globaltech Industries Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2007.11.25 13:23:00 - [95] Edited by: Armoured C on 25/11/2007 13:25:00 gragnor there a reason that carriers are getting nerfed (dont agree with mothership getting nerfed) and they have hold back on that aswell it because the cant do everything they said they are thinking about what they are going to do but you know yourself somethign need to be done about it weather a fitting ti to be included to give it somethign like scripts do to damps now all of something or something of nothing ooh before you say yes i hate the idea of damps getting this nerf and carriers but unlike you and whine i ADAPT AND DEAL WITH IT instead of crying infront of all the other posters on this thread pull your self together
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.11.25 13:48:00 - [96] Originally by: Armoured C ooh before you say yes i hate the idea of damps getting this nerf and carriers but unlike you and whine i ADAPT AND DEAL WITH IT instead of crying infront of all the other posters on this thread indeed. in case of the gallente recons I'll adapt and train caldari cruiser 5. --- planetary interaction idea!
Popsikle Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.25 14:50:00 - [97] Originally by: DHB WildCat I apologise for the confusion, let me try to clear things up. Younger players in smaller ships should die to an older player in a larger ship, right? Well scripts are allowing ships like the new EW ships to be able to get to and disable fleet Battleships before they can even be locked. There is no gap anymore between older and younger players. As far as tactics - We'll take my Raven. I can right now, effectively battle 5-10 ships, depending on the gang make-up. This is because I spent near 3 years training missiles skills and EW skills to the maximum limit. Damps allow me to negate 3 ships, missiles will take out the weaker ones, and the neuts will take out the ceptors with my drones. This is no longer possible with scripts. My main point is that a 1 day old rifter pilot is now as important as a 4 year old Battleship pilot. I think that is wrong. WildCat DONT PANIC! YOU STILL HAVE YOUR CLOAK ON YUOR RAVEN! 4 younger players should be able to take out one older player, yes. ____ <t20> i want to be in a manager potition at Hooters <SaraDawn> Garthagk, do you have it up ? <Garthagk> I can get it up anytime.
Prez21 coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.25 14:53:00 - [98] I dont think alot of people understand what the op is trying to say, its not a whine about new players being effective in pvp, its the fact that alot of older players have put alot of time and effort into training and learning how to use modules and skills to there advantage to then having to sit back and whatch these skills and mods be nerfed to near uselessness. It just seems so many older players have wasted there time training certain skills, and ccp dont seem to care. Im glad i never bothered training for cap ships because that looks like it will be a hell of alot of time and isk wasted for many pilots who have
Popsikle Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:00:00 - [99] Originally by: Prez21 I dont think alot of people understand what the op is trying to say, its not a whine about new players being effective in pvp, its the fact that alot of older players have put alot of time and effort into training and learning how to use modules and skills to there advantage to then having to sit back and whatch these skills and mods be nerfed to near uselessness. It just seems so many older players have wasted there time training certain skills, and ccp dont seem to care. Im glad i never bothered training for cap ships because that looks like it will be a hell of alot of time and isk wasted for many pilots who have My alt has about 15 mil SP in ArtyPests and about 12 mil SP in flying the Nidhogger as best as it can be flown. I understand completely about the waste of SP that whole account is now but when it comes down to it, CCP makes changes and they dont look back or dont look at what it does to the older players looking for diversity. We just have to adapt and move on, or quit playing, but there is no need to ***** about it, imo. ____ <t20> i want to be in a manager potition at Hooters <SaraDawn> Garthagk, do you have it up ? <Garthagk> I can get it up anytime.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:01:00 - [100] Originally by: Prez21 I dont think alot of people understand what the op is trying to say, its not a whine about new players being effective in pvp, its the fact that alot of older players have put alot of time and effort into training and learning how to use modules and skills to there advantage to then having to sit back and whatch these skills and mods be nerfed to near uselessness. It just seems so many older players have wasted there time training certain skills, and ccp dont seem to care. Im glad i never bothered training for cap ships because that looks like it will be a hell of alot of time and isk wasted for many pilots who have Yeah it must suck when you train for a solopwnmobile and when you get there it's not a solopwnmobile anymore. Fortunately I train for certain ships because I like the ship, not what it can do, so I have never and will never experience this personally. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Prez21 coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:06:00 - [101] Originally by: Popsikle Originally by: Prez21 I dont think alot of people understand what the op is trying to say, its not a whine about new players being effective in pvp, its the fact that alot of older players have put alot of time and effort into training and learning how to use modules and skills to there advantage to then having to sit back and whatch these skills and mods be nerfed to near uselessness. It just seems so many older players have wasted there time training certain skills, and ccp dont seem to care. Im glad i never bothered training for cap ships because that looks like it will be a hell of alot of time and isk wasted for many pilots who have My alt has about 15 mil SP in ArtyPests and about 12 mil SP in flying the Nidhogger as best as it can be flown. I understand completely about the waste of SP that whole account is now but when it comes down to it, CCP makes changes and they dont look back or dont look at what it does to the older players looking for diversity. We just have to adapt and move on, or quit playing, but there is no need to ***** about it, imo. im not whinning about it im just pointing out what i think the op is trying to state in his post, it doesnt rely bother me in anyway, but i can understand why some older players get annoyed when it seems they have wasted there time training for somthing to see it turned into a ueless module.
Prez21 coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:08:00 - [102] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Prez21 I dont think alot of people understand what the op is trying to say, its not a whine about new players being effective in pvp, its the fact that alot of older players have put alot of time and effort into training and learning how to use modules and skills to there advantage to then having to sit back and whatch these skills and mods be nerfed to near uselessness. It just seems so many older players have wasted there time training certain skills, and ccp dont seem to care. Im glad i never bothered training for cap ships because that looks like it will be a hell of alot of time and isk wasted for many pilots who have Yeah it must suck when you train for a solopwnmobile and when you get there it's not a solopwnmobile anymore. Fortunately I train for certain ships because I like the ship, not what it can do, so I have never and will never experience this personally. No one trains for a solopwnmobile, your missing the point completely, people do however train for certain ships and modules to then see these ships and mods nerfed to hell and realise they have wasted alot of time and isk on them.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:12:00 - [103] Originally by: Prez21 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Prez21 I dont think alot of people understand what the op is trying to say, its not a whine about new players being effective in pvp, its the fact that alot of older players have put alot of time and effort into training and learning how to use modules and skills to there advantage to then having to sit back and whatch these skills and mods be nerfed to near uselessness. It just seems so many older players have wasted there time training certain skills, and ccp dont seem to care. Im glad i never bothered training for cap ships because that looks like it will be a hell of alot of time and isk wasted for many pilots who have Yeah it must suck when you train for a solopwnmobile and when you get there it's not a solopwnmobile anymore. Fortunately I train for certain ships because I like the ship, not what it can do, so I have never and will never experience this personally. No one trains for a solopwnmobile, your missing the point completely, people do however train for certain ships and modules to then see these ships and mods nerfed to hell and realise they have wasted alot of time and isk on them. Not being able to solopwn anymore is exactly what the OP was talking about. In some circumstances yes, ships unfairly get nerfed completely into oblivion. This is very unusual and is not happening here. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Prez21 coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:19:00 - [104] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Prez21 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Prez21 I dont think alot of people understand what the op is trying to say, its not a whine about new players being effective in pvp, its the fact that alot of older players have put alot of time and effort into training and learning how to use modules and skills to there advantage to then having to sit back and whatch these skills and mods be nerfed to near uselessness. It just seems so many older players have wasted there time training certain skills, and ccp dont seem to care. Im glad i never bothered training for cap ships because that looks like it will be a hell of alot of time and isk wasted for many pilots who have Yeah it must suck when you train for a solopwnmobile and when you get there it's not a solopwnmobile anymore. Fortunately I train for certain ships because I like the ship, not what it can do, so I have never and will never experience this personally. No one trains for a solopwnmobile, your missing the point completely, people do however train for certain ships and modules to then see these ships and mods nerfed to hell and realise they have wasted alot of time and isk on them. Not being able to solopwn anymore is exactly what the OP was talking about. In some circumstances yes, ships unfairly get nerfed completely into oblivion. This is very unusual and is not happening here. Ok i agree the example sed by the op isnt great with the bs beating 4 cruisers, but the main point in the post is that you can no longer do alot of tasks that you once could on your own, and that alot of you sp that you have invested is next to useless and you need to realy on more and more allies to be able to do anyhing. Im not saying you should be able to do everything on your own but it seems even alot of the basic tasks and pvp encounters are impossible to do solo.
JabJabVVV Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:19:00 - [105] I'm not sure if I understand the op correctly so I'll paraphrase what I think he means just to make it clear which issues I am debating: 'high SP characters in battleships should be able to beat several low SP characters in smaller, less skill intensive, ships but due to balancing etc 4 frigates piloted by noobs can beat a Battleship piloted by a vet' I partially agree and partially disagree by the sentiments expressed here: I agree in the sense that a skilful, high SP character should be able to beat low SP characters in comparable ships and fittings and guess what... they can! However I think the OP has got it wrong with his focus on the battleship as the be all and end all of PvP ships; in my opinion it shouldn't be (and indeed it isn't) the ultimate pwnmobile, it should have a role and it should fulfil that role (and it does both). The roles of all ships are currently balanced really rather well: if you want a fleet ship or heavy fire support in a small gang you fly a BS, nothing does this job better and nor should it. If you want a roaming ship you fly a HAC or Field command ship (or an AF/inty if you are a pikey) again nothing does it better. If you are poor or a noob or an idiot you fly a T1 cruiser or frigate, they are generally rubbish but are cheap and you might get lucky if you have the numbers. Even cap ships and super caps are pretty balanced. My only slight issue from the balance point of view is with tackling, webbing and bubbles (static and dictor) - I think they are somewhat poorly implemented and could do with a bit of revision. What effects scripts will have, well, I'll wait and see before commenting. What I think CCP should concentrate on, now that that balance is pretty good, is making high end combat (fleet warfare basically) exciting: 'warp to <gang mate> at <range> then shoot <target 1> then shoot <target 2> then warp to <gang mate>' being the only order that is required to control a fleet of several hundred ships is utter, utter boll*cks and when combined with crippling lag it turns what could be the best gaming experience money can buy into a tedious and frustrating nightmare. ----------- When I was a n00b, I spake as a n00b, I understood as a n00b, I thought as a n00b: but when I became pr0, I put away n00bish things.
Jenera Shad	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:29:00 - [106] on hearing these changes it became immediatley apparent that sniping is going to suffer heavily with this patch. Particularly battleship snipers. It is difficult to find arguments that suggest anything other than ccp are trying to slowly remove any way for a small number of players to combat a large number of players. It will also most likely, fundamentally change the way fleet battles happen. The stab nerf, the introduction of dictors, the jav torp nerf.....all of these were touted as changes that would stop the burn eden style of play none of them will come close to the scripting patch in messing up their play style. Still, guess we've all got to adapt at some point
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:30:00 - [107] Originally by: Prez21 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Prez21 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Prez21 I dont think alot of people understand what the op is trying to say, its not a whine about new players being effective in pvp, its the fact that alot of older players have put alot of time and effort into training and learning how to use modules and skills to there advantage to then having to sit back and whatch these skills and mods be nerfed to near uselessness. It just seems so many older players have wasted there time training certain skills, and ccp dont seem to care. Im glad i never bothered training for cap ships because that looks like it will be a hell of alot of time and isk wasted for many pilots who have Yeah it must suck when you train for a solopwnmobile and when you get there it's not a solopwnmobile anymore. Fortunately I train for certain ships because I like the ship, not what it can do, so I have never and will never experience this personally. No one trains for a solopwnmobile, your missing the point completely, people do however train for certain ships and modules to then see these ships and mods nerfed to hell and realise they have wasted alot of time and isk on them. Not being able to solopwn anymore is exactly what the OP was talking about. In some circumstances yes, ships unfairly get nerfed completely into oblivion. This is very unusual and is not happening here. Ok i agree the example sed by the op isnt great with the bs beating 4 cruisers, but the main point in the post is that you can no longer do alot of tasks that you once could on your own, and that alot of you sp that you have invested is next to useless and you need to realy on more and more allies to be able to do anyhing. Im not saying you should be able to do everything on your own but it seems even alot of the basic tasks and pvp encounters are impossible to do solo. The SP don't become useless, you can still do the task they are there to enable you to do - it's just the task has changed. The role you trained for may now require support to be successful, but you can still fight in that role better than anyone else because of all your skills. Like I said, I agree that it sucks for people who have put in a lot of time, but it's not like CCP are saying 'Ship X is being removed from the game, those of you who trained for it are screwed', they are saying 'Ship X will now go from doing Y to doing Z, where Z is Y but with a gang supporting you'. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Earthan Gallente The Absolutely Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:31:00 - [108] Well i disagree with op, A sniping bs not being able to kill a interceptor with its LARGE guns is a good thing. You got drones for this, you can fit some small guns/launchers or hvy nutrlizers if you want to be better. To the 1 bs as 4 t1 cruisers: im pretty sure i would kill them in my standard fitted short range dominix tm, even if it was a respectable imho mix lets say: blackbird , celestis, 2 thoraxes for dmg. I agree a bit that vet players dont have the huge advantages they have in other games, but i think its good. And yes as somebody said, any pilot with 6 month is a serious threat.He can max out nearly for example intie class and pwn you even 1-1.Even if you got 70 milions sp.Wich is imho fine - Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy hunting stories
DHB WildCat BURN EDEN	Posted - 2007.11.25 16:19:00 - [109] I know I do a really bad job of getting my point accross. The battleship scenario is an example people. Stop focusing on solopwn mobiles. Hell I use an alt to tackle I dont solo anything! Unless its an idiot in a vaga that thinks it can tackle me then forgets to warp 8) lol. There have been many excellent replies that get my point accross far better than I am capable of, thank you guys. So to try to clarify. Im sure Ill get the omg stop whining your Burn Eden go cloak somewhere and kill a hauler. SP are what we use to seperate older players from younger ones. Lets face it, it takes several years just to train support skills before you even think about specializing. So a character that specialized in lets say a damp raven. Scenario - Raven comes out of warp 180km from Misaba gate in R3-K7K... lets just say 8). Around the gate is an arazu, ishtar, sacrelige, 2 herectics, 2 geddons, malediction, and an aeon.... lets just say. Raven dampens the geddons, and his mate lets call him Captain Rick**** dampens the ishtar and sac. Our rapier call him Shin Ra I guess, webs and the ravens kill incoming dictors / malediction. Then focus fire on HAC's, while the dictor throws bubbles up around the gate. HAC's go down, but cant break remote repping on the BS. The 2 BS and Aeon warp out. How could two ravens and a rapier do this? 5 months of training sensor damp skills to lvl5. Almost 2 years training missile skills to lvl5. A year training support skills to lvl5. A few months training ships skills to lvl 5. That is why tactics won. We spent so much time training and "specializing" To only have CCP come and say. "The noobs say you're too good. They cant beat you even with Super Cap support. So we have to eliminate your advantage by nerfing mods that you spent so much time training for. Yes we know they could have fit them on thier ships too, but they cant think that intelligently, besides your training so they work up to 150km, while thiers would only work to 80km, putting 8 hours of training into it is still unfair." This is my point if you cant understand it then to be honest you probably dont pvp, or if you do you are in the larger fleets with the mentality those who have more should win. Hope this clears things up a little. WildCat Oh and do you know why BE began fitting cloaks? We used to not fit them you know, however one day we were killing some guys when 8 carriers came out of warp and put fighters on us. There were large bubbles on the two gates to get out. So we tried to warp around and kill fighters, but there is this thing where a cov-ops can scan you in about 20 seconds, support fleet comes out of warp and we cannot kill all the fighters. After about 2 hours of this, we gave up died to the fighters. The next day we had cloaks. We fit them because CCP makes it impossible now to be in enemy space with out them.
JabJabVVV Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.25 16:50:00 - [110] Edited by: JabJabVVV on 25/11/2007 16:54:53 Ah, I see what you mean now. However I still think you have got it wrong to a pretty large degree: Burn Eden (by all accounts) only PvP when specific sets of circumstances arise. This style of PvP favours specialised fittings over generalised ones. With the upcoming 'nerf' I predict that specialised fittings will have to become more specialised to achieve a similar effectiveness to what they have now (remote sensor boosters etc perhaps?) however generalised fittings will be even less effective than they are now against specialised gangs so PvP will actually become easier for people like BE. EDIT: Basically what I'm saying is: It will be easier for specialised, high SP gangs to adapt and overcome the upcoming module changes than it will be for generalised, lower SP gangs. ----------- When I was a n00b, I spake as a n00b, I understood as a n00b, I thought as a n00b: but when I became pr0, I put away n00bish things.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.11.25 16:57:00 - [111] Originally by: Liam Liam Edited by: Liam Liam on 23/11/2007 14:03:59 I think the point he was trying to make is that a fully skilled battleship with good gun/ missile skills should own a couple of frigs and a couple of cruisers with poor to reasonable skills not the other way round. I can see the problem I think a fully skilled battleship should be able to own frigs but at the moment it can't. To be honest battleships are a bit underpowered. If you cannot own frigs in a BS, you seriously need to contract your BS to me. Still can't fly one, but I can reprocess it to make a lot of Rifters
Kuzya Morozov Gallente Organized Combat Consortium	Posted - 2007.11.25 17:01:00 - [112] I was about to call him a scrub, then I saw he's from Burn Eden, and stfued.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.25 17:22:00 - [113] Originally by: DHB WildCat How could two ravens and a rapier do this? 5 months of training sensor damp skills to lvl5. Almost 2 years training missile skills to lvl5. A year training support skills to lvl5. A few months training ships skills to lvl 5........ Ok, a better argument. But I still disagree, largely for reasons not in your argument. CCP's game is not "static". BOTH players and CCP are constantly CHANGING it. For this reason, CCP "must" nerf, and "must" do so regularly. When CCP nerfs, someone loses some power from invested skill point. Always. And it will always be the vets that lose the most, simply because they will ALWAYS be the ones with the biggest investments. However.... When CCP does a nerf (and the occational buff...), what they are doing is shifting the balance of power of modules and skills, and someone "wins". Guess who wins the most on the skill point aspect? If you guessed "veterans" you guessed right. When Eve becomes static it will be because players and/or CCP are no longer trying. As a final note, I do NOT always agree with CCPs decisions on what to nerf, what to buff and what to leave alone, and I'm vocal about it sometimes, but that is for a seperate thread..... Play nice while you butcher each other.
Valan Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.25 17:33:00 - [114] Originally by: Sergeant Spot When CCP nerfs, someone loses some power from invested skill point. Always. And it will always be the vets that lose the most, simply because they will ALWAYS be the ones with the biggest investments. However.... When CCP does a nerf (and the occational buff...), what they are doing is shifting the balance of power of modules and skills, and someone "wins". Guess who wins the most on the skill point aspect? If you guessed "veterans" you guessed right. True to a certain extent. I'm not constrained by weapon or ship type anymore. I can drift from one bandwagon to the next with ease. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Neutrino Sunset KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.11.25 18:26:00 - [115] Battleships never have been a solopwnmobile. Even before the NOS and ECM nerfs NOS and ECM setups could be countered by passive tanks and those fitting ECCM (although ECCM could have used a buff). Prior to the NOS and ECM nerfs the rock paper sissors effect was very strongly in effect, after the nerf the effect was less pronounced, more radical setups were sidelined and ship setups became more homogenous, more samey. Without the potential for radical setups all thats left is checking a ship's bonuses and chosing which out of the 2 remaining working setups for that ship to fit. I'm not a fan of this, by all means balance what is overpowered, but I prefer that balancing to be done in such a way that diverse and radical setups remain feasible. Right now (pre Trinity) a few interceptors flown by noobs can already pwn a BS flown by a highy skilled (RL and SP) player. The skilled player may have a well rounded and capable setup with a Heavy Neutrializer and light drones, but if the low skilled players in inties use decent tactics they can still kill him quite easily, if the inties make mistakes the BS might survive. After Trinity the inties will be able to run MWD and scram continually and scram the BS from outside neut range. It seems to me that the result of this is that it is more the case that the BS will no longer ever have even the slightest chance against a few inties irrespective of tactics or skill or fitting. I am not a fan of this either, I prefer it if the outcome of a fight depends more on who employed the best tactics or had the better skills or fitting, instead of on CCP deciding that ship X should never be able to beat ship Y under any circumstances. To those who feel it necessary to reply to every thread relating to balance and the direction Eve is going in with accusations that those engaged in the debate are 'whining' or trying to protect their 'iWin' buttons or solopwnmobiles. Please just grow up. The people going to the trouble of making considered posts obviously care enough about the game that this is not their intention as can easily be determined from what they have written. Attempts to misrepresent their views in this light is just disingenuous idiocy and is a waste of bandwidth. To save the platitude trotting masses that have have heard some things that they think they'll sound clever if they repeat the trouble of repeating themselves in response to this: a) If a battleship has no support it deserves to die no matter what. There is such a thing as a fight that starts off with lots of people and ends up with just a few. The battleship may have had support that got killed off. b) Any battleship can defend itself against interceptors with just a few light drones. Light drones do not even catch interceptors, if you don't even know that it's probably better if you don't post at all.
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.11.25 18:37:00 - [116] Originally by: Topaz Skydiver Edited by: Topaz Skydiver on 25/11/2007 07:49:27 Originally by: F'nog Any time numbers defeat skill points, it's a good thing, IMO. Imho it should be player experience, good teamplay and tactics defeat numbers. If 10 players know what they are doing and fighting against 20, who don't, the 10 should win, even if both sides have the same amounts of SP. PvP games should be more about playing well than about numbers or skillpoints. That's what I was getting at, but you worded it better. If you rely just on your SP number and ship size, you should lose. If you use your brain to take advantage of those SPs, then that's another story. Originally by: Karen Serasia Because some idiot decided to sell an internet connection to me and didn't think of the consequences.
Neutrino Sunset KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.11.25 18:38:00 - [117] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Originally by: TardRusher The game will continually be dumbed down to please the newer players. The thought seems to be that with every 10 old players that leave, another 15 new ones will take their place. Basically we're all f'ed. You're one of the guys dumbing it down. Please leave. The obvious facts (user numbers) demonstate that Eve as an MMORPG occupies a niche position in the market as a hardcore SF MMO at a time when tamer MMOs with more general appeal are making significant amounts of money. Naturally within CCP there will be elements of the organisation concerned primarily with the quality of the product and keeping it true to its founding principals, as well as other elements who are predominantly concerned with how much money the company makes. It would not seem to be an unreasonable hypothesis to suggest that there might be a degree of tension between these elements with respect to which direction Eve as a product should go in. My reading of Tard's post is that he recognises this and personally concludes that the money counters in CCP will drag Eve in whatever direction they think most immediately lucrative. While perhaps cynical this is not an unreasonable point of view, after all hasn't exactly this mechanic been the downfall of other MMOs in the past? Unfortunately I was unable to discern any value in your response whatsoever.
Seamus Rooke Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.11.25 21:05:00 - [118] Just one small point. Not every new character is a new player. Some of these characters are more experienced players knowing what they are doing, some - not all, but some. Run into those and it could make you wonder what just happened. Personally - while I haven't been playing since the start, don't think just because you have a lot of SP should ensure victory. It should help with secondary skills but it should be your combat experience that dictates the outcome of the battle. Let's wait until after the patch before we start panicking though, waste of energy until then.
Necro EvilZombie North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.11.25 21:50:00 - [119] you should change your font color to black --------------------------------------------------------------
Thorek Ironbrow Ironbrow Industries Co. Empire Research	Posted - 2007.11.25 22:00:00 - [120] I find it easier to read in yellow actually. However, I disagree with your point. The "10 mil SP chars" you're up against are porbably more specialised for one. Plus, I believe CCP was trying to get EvE to be more of a team game. Hence level 5 missions not ment to be possible without at least 2 or 3 BSs. _____________________________ Thorek Ironbrow of Ironbrow Industries Co. Part of the Empire Research Alliance Look us up in Nomaa, Itamo, or Sobaseki to jo

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