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DHB WildCat BURN EDEN	Posted - 2007.11.23 01:28:00 - [1] In the old days of EVE a 40 mil sp character would go around in his Mega / Domi / Scorpion or whatever and if he came accross 4 10 mil sp characters he would kill them all. In those days you were rewarded for being an older player, spending more time and isk on skills and ships. A battleship would kill 4 cruisers. However it seems eve has now turned to numbers. What I mean by this is now a days that same Mega, would probably die to 4 cruisers. Be it from EW or speed. Yes numbers will usually win in the blob sense, but it seems that now with the upcoming patch, cruisers (T1) are on par with Battleships. This is due entirely to scripts. They make Damps, Tracking Disruptors, sensor boosters, tracking comps.... well any active mod entirely useless. Example - sniping battleship 200km out script in sensor booster for range. Interceptor begins 200km out, Battleship will not have it locked until it is within 20km, or scramble range. So what does this mean. I see This game turning into who can field the most logistic ships, nano hacs, and rooks as the power gangs of eve. All Battleships will be useless unless fit in a "Blaster" set-up with a huge Passive tank. Everything that used to be "out of the ordinary" will no longer be of use. Tactics will be thrown out of the window and it will become a slugfest of speed, blasters, and remote repping. This is how I see the game going and it does concern me a little. Everyone will be equal in the game no matter the characters age. I guess this post is more of a discuss what you think the future holds, more than anything else. I for one am concerned. However that is just one "undrunk" opinion. WildCat
Ivor Gunn No One Expects The Spanish Inquisition	Posted - 2007.11.23 01:28:00 - [2] I'd read it. But i can't. Post in a real colour and try again.
Dahak2150 Chaos Monkeys Monkey Religion	Posted - 2007.11.23 01:32:00 - [3] blinks ---------------- Originally by: "Cyberus" cause its has no sence anyway your brains is simply wont accept that anyway.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.23 01:33:00 - [4] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 23/11/2007 01:41:14 What does the scanner say about his Irony Level? Irony or not, I love the sound of BSes going around pwning all smaller ships, but the whole players-working-together-always-outperform-soloers setup is probably better from an objective point of view. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Danae Melios Azteca Transportation Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.23 01:34:00 - [5] /me starts training for logistics ships Actually, my question is if you are in a sniping battleship, would you have a webber and drones to take care of an interceptor? Not having really flown battleships in pvp I've never bothered to familiarize myself with their setups, so this is an honest question. Is it possible to snipe and prepare for the point as well? Originally by: game box Conceive a new life without boundaries, where murder, plunder, betrayal, and delusions of grandeur will lead you to boundless glory or to the brink of ruin.
Ivorian	Posted - 2007.11.23 01:50:00 - [6] i am not plaing eve this long, but how many 40 mill chars where there in the "old" days? :). Like when it came out? Or 3 years after the release. Becauce this should be around when you have 40 mill SP (just guessing, no adv learning skills, no high implants). And now or than, 4 cruiser should be a fair setup against one BS. After all this is a MMORPG. Not a ipownyoubecauceiamolder game. You should need backup or support.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.11.23 01:55:00 - [7] I'm confused by your logic... If your outnumbered, then the EW nerf is a good thing. because you won't get damped to ****. you'll get damped less meaning after the patch you'll do better when fighting cruisers. Also after mentioning cruisers you bring up interceptors... why? I thought this was talking about how the nerf effects cruisers? you make some strange jumps in logic there my friend. Official fanboy of jenny< pink supporter! looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.23 01:58:00 - [8] Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 23/11/2007 01:41:14 What does the scanner say about his Irony Level? Yeah mega LOL Burn Eden made their name by using damps from 150km with cloaking stabbed ravens. Remind me again DHB, how many years does it take to use a damp, a cloak , or a stab Irony overload detected [04:58:57] Azzloran > ever heard of a drake? you wont like them when they decloak on you
Metal Dude Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.23 02:00:00 - [9] Wow, what can I say. I agree with BE. Older players get no love from CCP at all. All they do is nerf us and all the time we spent training skills that became worthless or changed later, so that lower skill players can pawn veterans like we were noobs. This game has been going down hill for years now. POS wars are so bad that when a call for dreads goes out, people log off. Dreads are useless for combat, Carriers will soon be nerfed, Titans are a big logistic jump bridge ship now, nothing more. Dictors > super caps, mining is worthless grind, NPC farmers, macro miners, isk sellers problems all ignored by CCP. That's not even mentioning blobs and lag. I can go on and on and on. I suggest a month off. If everyone that has a problem with the game's direction would take a month off and suspend their subscription, I would bet that would get CCPs attention. It's either that or some bad publicity campaign about how the game is sucking at the moment with all the PC gamerÆs magazines, but that might get you banned. Otherwise, CCP don't care and are laughing at us all the way to the bank. The truth will set you free
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.23 02:02:00 - [10] Originally by: Metal Dude CCP don't care and are laughing at us all the way to the bank. Then they deserve our money for their acting skills. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Karn Mithralia Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.11.23 02:02:00 - [11] Edited by: Karn Mithralia on 23/11/2007 02:04:24 Yeh, why sensor-boosters and tracking-comps are getting tweaked is beyond me. Its not like snipers are incredibly over-powered as is. A quick look at the market will show you how popular these modules are in their current state. Not very. Ranged ships are a great way to bring variety to pvp, the script changes will see them used less. Thats bad for the game IMO. -----------------------------------------
DHB WildCat BURN EDEN	Posted - 2007.11.23 02:09:00 - [12] I apologise for the confusion, let me try to clear things up. Younger players in smaller ships should die to an older player in a larger ship, right? Well scripts are allowing ships like the new EW ships to be able to get to and disable fleet Battleships before they can even be locked. There is no gap anymore between older and younger players. As far as tactics - We'll take my Raven. I can right now, effectively battle 5-10 ships, depending on the gang make-up. This is because I spent near 3 years training missiles skills and EW skills to the maximum limit. Damps allow me to negate 3 ships, missiles will take out the weaker ones, and the neuts will take out the ceptors with my drones. This is no longer possible with scripts. My main point is that a 1 day old rifter pilot is now as important as a 4 year old Battleship pilot. I think that is wrong. WildCat
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.23 02:14:00 - [13] your logic fails simply due to the fact that no ship should be a solopwnmobile, as stated repeatedly by the devs you can wipe out any thousand of those new pilots on by themselves, but yeah if they all come at you at once you are dead for a very good reason Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.23 02:14:00 - [14] Originally by: DHB WildCat There is no gap anymore between older and younger players. There never was. If you were looking at character age and thinking you could own them, then you are not as smart as I thought. After 6 months, any character is a threat. Specialisation is key to this game. I would never think that I can solo 4 BS just because they are younger than me. Thats a good thing. Adapt dude, so far you have been very good at it [04:58:57] Azzloran > ever heard of a drake? you wont like them when they decloak on you
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.11.23 02:15:00 - [15] Translation: I got pwned by a noob and now I whining on the forum Originally by: ISD Valorem The Devs have stated multiple times that they are looking at the Amarr issues. Weekly The Tick quote... "I can't lose my name! It's on all my stationary!" ~The Tick
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.23 02:18:00 - [16] Originally by: DHB WildCat Younger players in smaller ships should die to an older player in a larger ship, right? Depends on how many and how much younger. Originally by: DHB WildCat I can right now, effectively battle 5-10 ships, depending on the gang make-up. This is because I spent near 3 years training missiles skills and EW skills to the maximum limit. On this I will say what I said above, the idea of an old player wtfpwning hordes of noobs sounds good in theory, but this is a MMORPG. Pic Related - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.23 02:20:00 - [17] Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Translation: I got pwned by a noob and now I whining on the forum thats what I am thinking 2 weeks in this game, 2006/04, my first solo kill was against a 2004/02 pilot. I don't remember him whining on forum, in fact he said "well done...you got lucky" It's the same as the game has always been. You CAN die in combat [04:58:57] Azzloran > ever heard of a drake? you wont like them when they decloak on you
laotse The Flying Dutchmen Antesignani Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.23 02:20:00 - [18] dhb i think your wright the new players and there skill,s are a laugh 4 noobs killing a 4 year old player in bs is stupid but hey we old one,s dont count the new players do so get used to it eve isnt the game like 4 years ago and its a shame http://80.126.192.128:8888/tfd/uploads/1121735338/gallery_11_8_1124480365.jpg Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 kbs, ty - Cortes
DHB WildCat BURN EDEN	Posted - 2007.11.23 02:26:00 - [19] Edited by: DHB WildCat on 23/11/2007 02:28:12 Hmm well lets get this out of the way, I am not whining, and I have not been killed by any newer player. Thats the point of my post. I know you seen Burn Eden omg smack him. If you read my post I said I can and do still take on gangs outnumbered. Today we engaged 7 vs. 25 and won. Also we have a new plan so dont worry about us. You fail to see my point, so Ill try once again and if you disagree then I'll let it drop and you're right. Should a character made in 2007, be able to beat a character made in 2003? If yes then fine. Second question. Should the better tactician (age irrelivent) be able to win a fight? If yes, then sorry but with script tactics have left the window 0/ WildCat
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.23 02:29:00 - [20] Originally by: DHB WildCat Should a character made in 2003, be able to beat a character made in 2007? If yes then fine. Depends on the circumstances. That is the intention. Originally by: DHB WildCat Second question. Should the better tactician (age irrelivent) be able to win a fight? If yes, then sorry but with script tactics have left the window 0/ The better tactician should be able to adapt. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.23 02:35:00 - [21] Originally by: DHB WildCat Second question. Should the better tactician (age irrelivent) be able to win a fight? If yes, then sorry but with script tactics have left the window 0/ WildCat Am not smacking you because you are Burn Eden, the better tactician should always win, and that is why ebay sales of 50mil sp chars usually end up getting ravaged in belts in their dreadnaughts You are smart enough to work your way through this, and I am sure you will be around for a long time killing stuff. Not because of your SP, but because of your experience in combat. You'll be fine dude [04:58:57] Azzloran > ever heard of a drake? you wont like them when they decloak on you
DHB WildCat BURN EDEN	Posted - 2007.11.23 03:04:00 - [22] I know Ill be fine, we will and have already adapted, we are very well known for doing so. The others I am not so sure about, besides I can always press the I-WIN button.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr The Wild Hunt Pure.	Posted - 2007.11.23 03:28:00 - [23] Originally by: DHB WildCat I know Ill be fine, we will and have already adapted, we are very well known for doing so. The others I am not so sure about, besides I can always press the I-WIN button. You mean the Cyno? Welcome to EVE Online: Press 1 for Caldari, PVE Online Press 2 for Minmatar, PVP Online Press 3 for Gallente, PWN Online Press 4 for Amarr, Lulz Online
TardRusher	Posted - 2007.11.23 03:32:00 - [24] The game will continually be dumbed down to please the newer players. The thought seems to be that with every 10 old players that leave, another 15 new ones will take their place. Basically we're all f'ed.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol The Fifth Race	Posted - 2007.11.23 03:34:00 - [25] Originally by: TardRusher The game will continually be dumbed down to please the newer players. The thought seems to be that with every 10 old players that leave, another 15 new ones will take their place. Basically we're all f'ed. You're one of the guys dumbing it down. Please leave. _________________ Burn.
xJohnnyDx Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.23 03:37:00 - [26] Hmm, forums ate my reply. New players need a reason to sign up. If every older player could beat every new player, even if they grouped up, what would the incentive be? Four ships should take out a solo ship, even if they're two classes down. PLACE SIGNATURE HERE What?! [Insert event here] happened? Quick, start a new thread on the forums! "Moot", not "mute".
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.23 03:38:00 - [27] Originally by: DHB WildCat I apologise for the confusion, let me try to clear things up. Younger players in smaller ships should die to an older player in a larger ship, right? Well scripts are allowing ships like the new EW ships to be able to get to and disable fleet Battleships before they can even be locked. There is no gap anymore between older and younger players. As far as tactics - We'll take my Raven. I can right now, effectively battle 5-10 ships, depending on the gang make-up. This is because I spent near 3 years training missiles skills and EW skills to the maximum limit. Damps allow me to negate 3 ships, missiles will take out the weaker ones, and the neuts will take out the ceptors with my drones. This is no longer possible with scripts. My main point is that a 1 day old rifter pilot is now as important as a 4 year old Battleship pilot. I think that is wrong. WildCat (1) Pod yourself repeatedly till you have ~850k SP (2) Get in your rifter (3) Continue to pwn as usual Sarcasm apart, lay off the hyperbole. It doesn't help your case. Reading your wh- I mean posts, anyone would think that your skills are now actually giving you negative bonuses. OH NOES MY SOLO PWNMOBILE HURTS! Sheesh. Soooo.... you're gonna have to adapt your tactics. Hey, me too. I've just started flying dictors regularly; -25% speed is gonna hurt. I cry, I faint, I emocut, but CCP are harsh and uncaring. Life is pain! ALAS! Apart from anything else, there is currently a large supply of 1-day players in rifters. Get yourself a few of them while they're cheap... No-one likes being nerfed. But no-one ever remembers the boosts when the crying threads get posted. It is NECESSARY for the game to change, for there to be continual shifts in the optimum configurations and the tactics they reward. Now if you're arguing that your pilots will be less able to take advantage of the new situation than the average EvE player, well... I don't believe you. BE have always pioneered new tactics. Everyone says Caldari ships suck for PvP: you made them work, to name but one example. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Zavernus Hamarabi Caldari High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.23 03:46:00 - [28] Just because you've put more time in the game doesnt mean that you get to kill everything. Other people play this game too and alot of them don't have the sp that you do. They're allowed to have comparable amounts of success. Sorry but, thats just the way games work. If you want to kill everyone thats been playing less than you i suggest counterstrike. Originally by: Payne Bringer ..flip teacup... wait for kettle to right teacup...gank kettle with the help of a hard hitting tr
Barbens	Posted - 2007.11.23 03:50:00 - [29] ' Yes numbers will usually win ' Exactly...carry on.. BaRbEnS
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.11.23 05:31:00 - [30] This is the reason we give WoW (and other) players that Eve is better than their games: that new players can do something and actually beat vets. There's a reason the devs changed the way tracking worked so that 1400mms couldn't one-shot a frig orbiting at 500m. Or that they stopped torps from WTFPWNing frigs with one torp. It's called balance. As Oveur has said, no ship should be a solopwnmobile. Any time numbers defeat skill points, it's a good thing, IMO. Originally by: Karen Serasia Because some idiot decided to sell an internet connection to me and didn't think of the consequences.
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.23 05:40:00 - [31] Originally by: DHB WildCat I see This game turning into who can field the most logistic ships, nano hacs, and rooks as the power gangs of eve. And turning away from who can field the most damp/cloak snipers with cloaked interdictors? Yep. You're probably right.
Helen Hunts Gallente Red Dragon Mining inc	Posted - 2007.11.23 05:56:00 - [32] My first experience in PvP was with a loot thief who was only 12 or so hours old. I had a few weeks in and a nice new destroyer that I was getting to know and love. (I was new ) He got to the wreck first and went flashy red, so I proceeded to roast his hide.....and had only the first volley do any damage. He trained for combat, NOS and ECM right off the bat and had me scrambled, NOSsed to nothing and unable to hit him no matter what I did. No cap, no guns, no escape. I've since learned much more about PvP.... I try not to make the same mistakes twice. Tactics and strategy is better than raw SP, ships and fittings combined. _______________________________ Mine da rocks, make more ships. Pop da rats, make more rigs. Sell da gear, make more money. Any Questions?
Argaven Steelbane	Posted - 2007.11.23 06:16:00 - [33] someone fill me in here, what are these "Scripts" you're all talking about?
Argaven Steelbane	Posted - 2007.11.23 06:18:00 - [34] Edited by: Argaven Steelbane on 23/11/2007 06:18:32
Major Stallion Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.23 06:33:00 - [35] Originally by: DHB WildCat I see This game turning into who can field the most...and rooks because heaven forbid caldari have a ship thats good in pvp, right? Of all people, youd be the last id suspect a whine from. ________________________________ Originally by: CCP Nozh As soon as people start comparing EVE to real life or battlestar galactica I stop reading.
Krazy Bitsch	Posted - 2007.11.23 06:35:00 - [36] Originally by: Metal Dude Wow, what can I say. I agree with BE. Older players get no love from CCP at all. and this is different from any other MMORPG, how??? rofl.
J Valkor Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.11.23 08:53:00 - [37] Yep. Because if two groups of players with the same ships and same tactical ability faught each other, but one group had higher SP higher specialized characters, they wouldn't easily win. Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Dracorimus Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.11.23 09:11:00 - [38] But then again, us 'vets' have been training the "skills" for over 3 years now, to allow for us to for instance 1 volley a newer player, and rightly so, after having trained said skill for much much longer....We should have every possibility of doing so in this case... ...Therefore.....for some 2 month old player to effectively screw me over totally with a frigate is most off putting, almost insulting considering the amount of time, read: "REAL MAN HOURS", I put into training for <insert ship/mod name here> in this game. I wish back when I started I had 805,000 SP... 8000 SP starting chars FTW ! -
SoftRevolution	Posted - 2007.11.23 09:11:00 - [39] Quote: Should a character made in 2007, be able to beat a character made in 2003? If yes then fine. Second question. Should the better tactician (age irrelivent) be able to win a fight? If yes, then sorry but with script tactics have left the window 0/ These points seem mutually contradictory. You've already said that your answer to the second question is "No". EVE RELATED CONTENT
Peanut Swsh Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.23 09:30:00 - [40] If you have more skill points you are still going to have an advantage over a player with less skillpoints, scripts no scripts, whatever. So whats the whine again? Anything that closes the gap between high sp players and low sp players is a good thing in my opinion e.g. the new ew frigates. Eve should be more about who has better tactics and teamwork, rather then who has been playing the game for longer. But end of the day the blob will probably win, but then again, thats just anothe part of the game. If you can get more people to follow your cause and fight for you then more power to you.
Jallem Sims Minmatar Exploring Blind	Posted - 2007.11.23 09:36:00 - [41] first... "luke, feel the force" yeah, something tells me that you are loosing more these days?? and, it has to be because of all the nerf to make noobs in anyway aprt of this game like you clearly are. But please god father, i promise to trade all my loot to you for your so holy protection! Your basically saying that your skills rock and therefore piloting skill and knowledge on how to set up to tackle a solopwnmobile and kick your 'i am older than you' ass is not on...... but then, if you really are a good pilot that dosen't rely on you 40mil (welldone i admire you) skills you'd be like this guy Originally by: Ugluuk 1 vs 1 empty system Megathron vs Hyperion Alt account in next system sees the Sacriledge,Hurricane,Stabber,Omen,Crow,Crow,Manticore,Merlin and rifter that waits for a go signal..No jamming ships..Ok cool lets go.. I warp to him..Guns online and drones ready.. Not even bothering to say go and opening fire.. 9 guys arrive shortly after as expected..And before i could say i expected it: "We are goons, we cant help it" shows up in local.. Result: 8 dead Goons Hyperion,Hurricane,Stabber,Thorax,Omen,Crow,Merlin Rifter Thanx for the loot,fraps,fight and better luck next time.. Linkage the will always be better pilots than you, no matter what age you are! BTW, i am just about to hit my first year.... i play support to the battle ships... and... this game is about multi player.... you can be a loner, you just got to be better at it now good luck... lots of changes makes this game always different and interesting.
Ash Solar	Posted - 2007.11.23 09:42:00 - [42] what really hurts are the racial weapon specialisation changes...oh wait wrong game.
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Fnck the blob.	Posted - 2007.11.23 09:53:00 - [43] I'm coming up on 20mil sp and tbh im sick of seeing t2 stuff getting "balanced" or lowered toward t1 crap that anyone can use. Everything i've specialized in is getting a bit of a nerfing, the t3 bc's are a start, there was a big gap between battlecruiser and having enough SP to fly a battleship properly, not so much now. I beat older players regularly, once you specialize it doesnt really matter how much they've got. I'm happy with them having an advantage... it's what i work towards myself. I think this is going the wrong way entirely. I can understand CCPs masterplan but EVERY. SINGLE. CHANGE. in this game since i started benefits and encourages MOAR BLOB HP boost for a start... ick... Hopefully once they're done screwing with eve they will just remove local and pos's and fix everything in 2 clicks
Hungo Minmatar Unholy Foundation Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.23 10:05:00 - [44] You should read the EVE V WOW thread. And then let me ask you a question Mr Attention seeking DHB Why should you, a mere 40mil pilot be invincible to younger players? Hell im a 65mil sp player and i certainly don't care who im killed by Ego on shelf please
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2007.11.23 10:06:00 - [45] Sensor Boosters don't need a tweak it needs to be split into two modules, one for speed and one for range, simple as that. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Argaven Steelbane	Posted - 2007.11.23 10:07:00 - [46] As a 5 day old player, with less than 1mil SP... I don't know how to respond to this thread, it's way over my head, but from the comments it seems that it'll become easier for me a newb to kill all the really experienced guys if I play my cards right, which sounds great to me. But I'm a little newb, so what do I know?
Zhaine B e l l u m	Posted - 2007.11.23 10:18:00 - [47] I can't tell if you're joking. Your post is totally ridiculous and makes sweeping and frankly ******** generalizations, but for all that you do seem be serious.
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Karjala Inc. Onnenpyora	Posted - 2007.11.23 10:57:00 - [48] Well setup battleship killing few cruisers. Ok. 50mil sp character killing few cruisers just because he has 50mil sp in trivial skills. Not ok. :D
Cailais Amarr W A R	Posted - 2007.11.23 11:02:00 - [49] Originally by: DHB WildCat I apologise for the confusion, let me try to clear things up. Younger players in smaller ships should die to an older player in a larger ship, right? . wrong C. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
Zinras	Posted - 2007.11.23 11:14:00 - [50] Can I have your stuff? I thought people realised that skills only train to level 5 in EVE. Seriously, it all depends on how you and they have spread your SP.. It doesn't take 40m SP to fly a Raven like an expert and neither does it to fly a Cruiser like one, skill wise. So what if you can fly a titan or use all the drones in the universe, if it doesn't matter for that specific fight? Out of the 40m SP you have, how many are specialized in the exact setup you were flying at that time? Propulsion Jamming V won't do much good if you don't actually web people, for example, so regarding that exact fight, those SP would be wasted. They might have decided go for excellent skills regarding cruisers and would then obviously be able to blow you out of the sky. EVE should be about being able to specialize and use the right tactics. I'm pretty sure that you could own each of them solo, which is where your SP mostly play a part, as well as kill them if they try to fly a ship they're not specialized in and you are.
NeoTheo Caldari Species 5618 R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.23 11:42:00 - [51] to be honest i am glad i the days of the solo pwn mobile are comming to a end, scripts arnt just gonna break 1 setup, they are gonna alter them all. meaning whilst the change effects you, it prolly effects everyone else in your gang also.
Grismar Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2007.11.23 11:59:00 - [52] I agree with the majority of the posters in this thread: older players shouldn't be able to defeat newer ones simply because of their age. However, it remains a valid point that older players should (or at least could) be awarded for being around longer. And guess what: they are. Having been around for longer doesn't just get you a ton of level V skills in any given profession (which a new player can get in a couple of months). It's gets you a ton of skill points in other professions as well, which gives you something the new player doesn't get: versatility. I can jump in any battleship, T2 cruiser, T2 frigate or some specialist ship (like a Bomber, Barge, Freighter or a Logistics vessel) and fly it decently. That's what my age gets me, but when I'm 1-on-1 with a newer player in the exact same ship, who just happens to have focused his skills on that ship, the odds are even. (well, except for the fact that I lose a fortune when I lose my clone, but then you shouldn't lose it ^^) That's -exactly- as it should be in a properly balanced game. Greetings, Grismar. Your EVE IGB home: EVE Wiki, Explorer, Navigator
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.23 12:12:00 - [53] In response to the opening post: Assuming a "normal" encounter,.... If 4 pvp characters with 10mil SPs each engage 1 pvp player who has 40mil SPs, the 1 player should die. ANY other outcome is broken. As for encounters where one side or the other has marked advantages or disadvantages, the 1 player could beat the 4, or be killed even more easily. CCP must work aggressively to be sure that any pvp player a year old who has reasonable focus in his training can be dangerous to ANY target when the 1 year old is acting within his trained role, ESPECIALLY in group play. Play nice while you butcher each other.
Cautet North Siders	Posted - 2007.11.23 12:48:00 - [54] If this game was simply a game of "who has the most sp wins" why bother logging on, we can just compare sp's instead - you get more you win, I get more I win (oh wait, thats trumps). Why bother playing eve when you can go play football against a bunch of 5 year olds instead, or that not satisfying enough? If you have been around for longer you should (and do) know more tricks and tactics than the younger player, which should be a good enough advantage for you. Plus you still get huge advantages in having more SP's, not to mention more flexibility so you can adapt better to changes.
NeoTheo Caldari Species 5618 R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.23 12:58:00 - [55] Edited by: NeoTheo on 23/11/2007 13:05:04 Originally by: Sergeant Spot In response to the opening post: Assuming a "normal" encounter,.... If 4 pvp characters with 10mil SPs each engage 1 pvp player who has 40mil SPs, the 1 player should die. ANY other outcome is broken. what a load of codswallop. i stoped reading here (maybe a mistake and ill get pwned). you can only have so many skillpoints in 1 thing. my 30 million SP dont get me any better than someone in a Assault frig with 15 million SP assuming he has AF5, and light missiles 5. and relivent support skills. 1 ship can only be flow so good, and with very well planed training you can max out certain ships very quickly.
Megadon Caldari Deathshead Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.23 13:08:00 - [56] Originally by: DHB WildCat Younger players in smaller ships should NOT die to an older player in a larger ship, right? WildCat fixed it for you courtesy of Oveure --------------
Louis DelaBlanche Cosmic Odyssey YouWhat	Posted - 2007.11.23 13:21:00 - [57] Solo PvP in big ships has been a dead art for a longtime. It takes alot luck, & a scout alt (wish i had one would have saved me alot of isk in losses ), to hope to have any real sucess at it (ie, being able to shoot more than one thing before the heavens open & the blob decends upon you). Nanohacs, & lately Nanohac blobs are the "PvPer" setup of choise these days I think. I miss being able to solo in big ships, as I dont enjoy nanoganking. But the move away from large ship soloing is not recent, nor is it now impossible either as has been said. As to old players beating new players by default...no. My sp lvl is no indication of my capabilities of flying n using a ship. id say for every ship i fly, at least 1/2 of my skillpoints have no affect on, if not more. If im flying a pimped out T2 ship n run into a T1 ship of a new player, id expect to win; but if not, take it as a lesson for myself not an unfair/broken/discriminatory aspect of the game (least now we dont have to fear the multispec of doom )
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.23 13:50:00 - [58] Edited by: Sergeant Spot on 23/11/2007 13:53:45 Originally by: NeoTheo Edited by: NeoTheo on 23/11/2007 13:05:04 Originally by: Sergeant Spot In response to the opening post: Assuming a "normal" encounter,.... If 4 pvp characters with 10mil SPs each engage 1 pvp player who has 40mil SPs, the 1 player should die. ANY other outcome is broken. what a load of codswallop. i stoped reading here (maybe a mistake and ill get pwned). you can only have so many skillpoints in 1 thing. my 30 million SP dont get me any better than someone in a Assault frig with 15 million SP assuming he has AF5, and light missiles 5. and relivent support skills. 1 ship can only be flow so good, and with very well planed training you can max out certain ships very quickly. Illiterate for the lose You seem to be demanding I'm wrong because you firmly believe my statements are correct. Play nice while you butcher each other.
Liam Liam	Posted - 2007.11.23 14:03:00 - [59] Edited by: Liam Liam on 23/11/2007 14:03:59 I think the point he was trying to make is that a fully skilled battleship with good gun/ missile skills should own a couple of frigs and a couple of cruisers with poor to reasonable skills not the other way round. I can see the problem I think a fully skilled battleship should be able to own frigs but at the moment it can't. To be honest battleships are a bit underpowered.
DHB WildCat BURN EDEN	Posted - 2007.11.23 16:10:00 - [60] Originally by: Liam Liam Edited by: Liam Liam on 23/11/2007 14:03:59 I think the point he was trying to make is that a fully skilled battleship with good gun/ missile skills should own a couple of frigs and a couple of cruisers with poor to reasonable skills not the other way round. I can see the problem I think a fully skilled battleship should be able to own frigs but at the moment it can't. To be honest battleships are a bit underpowered. Im glad someone has a better ability to get the point accross than I do. This is the first part of my problem but expressed much better than I had done. Thank you Liam. My second part was about tactics. Most active modules are becoming nerfed by having scripts to diviate thier abilities. Would you agree? This takes what used to be one module and forces you to fit to if you want the desired effect you used to have from just the one. So what this will force a lot of people to do is to set-up modules that can be more effective while saving slots. So what used to be a smaller gang could hold thier own against a much larger one, with a wide range of tactics, is reduced to only a hand full. Of which I expect to see those fully exploited 8). Im just saying that I think this game has been reduced to blaster set-ups and logistic ships, with very few options to think outside the box. It can still be done, but the limitations have greatly increased due to scripts. I have noticed that quite a few older players agree when they understand what Im trying to say, which is hard I know 8). And the younger ones are still saying well I should be able to hang with the older boys. We dissagree on that but we always will. Thank you to all the older players that make rthis game fun. Intense 1 vs 1 / 2 vs 1 is what I still live for, but the blob is going to overcome us. While I do have the I-WIN button, I really do hate the idea that I can destroy an entire fleet with no tactics whatso ever and will continue to use the raven as much as possible. For those of you who are going to say well that's contridictory, it is not. I believe one guy should be able to take on a smallish (2-5) Younger players, not destroy 2-300 man fleets with one click. WildCat
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.11.23 16:21:00 - [61] Originally by: DHB WildCat In the old days of EVE a 40 mil sp character would go around in his Mega / Domi / Scorpion or whatever and if he came accross 4 10 mil sp characters he would kill them all. In those days you were rewarded for being an older player, spending more time and isk on skills and ships. A battleship would kill 4 cruisers. However it seems eve has now turned to numbers. What I mean by this is now a days that same Mega, would probably die to 4 cruisers. Be it from EW or speed. Yes numbers will usually win in the blob sense, but it seems that now with the upcoming patch, cruisers (T1) are on par with Battleships. This is due entirely to scripts. They make Damps, Tracking Disruptors, sensor boosters, tracking comps.... well any active mod entirely useless. Example - sniping battleship 200km out script in sensor booster for range. Interceptor begins 200km out, Battleship will not have it locked until it is within 20km, or scramble range. So what does this mean. I see This game turning into who can field the most logistic ships, nano hacs, and rooks as the power gangs of eve. All Battleships will be useless unless fit in a "Blaster" set-up with a huge Passive tank. Everything that used to be "out of the ordinary" will no longer be of use. Tactics will be thrown out of the window and it will become a slugfest of speed, blasters, and remote repping. This is how I see the game going and it does concern me a little. Everyone will be equal in the game no matter the characters age. I guess this post is more of a discuss what you think the future holds, more than anything else. I for one am concerned. However that is just one "undrunk" opinion. WildCat WHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Amuko Amarr Happy Little Roid Huggers	Posted - 2007.11.23 16:22:00 - [62] to;dr (Too Orange; Didn't read). Seriously, this is not meant as a troll, but is there a reason why you should post in orange? Because frankly, it makes you stand out like an attention *****. Post in the default colour like us mere mortals.
Shaemell Buttleson Darwin With Attitude oooh Shiny	Posted - 2007.11.23 16:27:00 - [63] I agree with the op and Liam Liam on this. snip Do not use your signature to troll or insult other EVE players even if the little turds deserve it! -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected])
DeadDuck Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.23 17:03:00 - [64] What CCP is doing, is putting all effort in team play. The lonely ace is more and more a myth. The last remains of these pilots fly the nano ships, but with the introduction of EW ships, specially the Hyenas, this will come to a predictable end. The extreme abuse of certain mods by the comunity shown to CCP that something was wrong, The NOS, The Dampeners, the ECM, were modules that when used in racks were extremelly powerfull, to much powerfull and we all knew that. There are still mods and items that need to be look at, specially the ECM drones and the mass reduction / velocity modules and CCP is slowly correcting them, and I see it like a good move from the developer. Regarding the advantages of the old players vs new players, well they have the ones that matters more... They can do much more things that I can do. To be able to compete vs the old players (2004, 2003) I had to focus in one role and one race. I'm a PVP pilot that only flys amarr ships, and even so, not all of them. Thats it... thats the only thing this character can do. Is not able to not even fly a dam tec1 frig from other race, I never produced anything, I have to buy all the stuff, I never researched, purchased a single BPC, dont have the slighest clue of POS's maintenance or exploration... Tha was the route I choose in EVE, be a combat pilot. Sometimes I would love to try other ships, like I see some alliance and corp m8's doing... flying geddons in one day, and dominix on other day .. I really would love to do that but I choose to focus in one role and one race... Of course I have advantages also, I will face with confidence a fight against a 60m character, even if I'm only 35m, and have good chances of surviving/win. The old player can have more fun, do more stuff, and still face combat with confidence. To be able to compete vs the older players in EVE I had to sacrifice a lot of other aspects in EVE. Some times I regret it, but most of the times I know that I've made the right choice.
000Hunter000 Gallente Magners Marauders	Posted - 2007.11.23 18:33:00 - [65] YES GD IT!!! THE OP IS RIGHT!! MY DREAD SHOULD BE ABLE TO WTFPWN 12 BS AT ONCE!!! I was beeing sarcastic offcourse seeing that a dread would prolly have a hard time pwning even a single frig unless u have some light drones fitted. CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!! Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
Karlemgne The Black Fleet The Cosa Nostra	Posted - 2007.11.23 18:47:00 - [66] Ehnnnh... Wrong Answer! You fail at eve. Never has eve been a game where a 40 million SP character could automatically yipe an entire gang of 10 million SP characters. If you think eve ever operated like this I'm not sure you've been playing the game long enough to actually have 40 million SP. To make matters worse for you, you seem to be suggesting that eve should be a game like WoW, EQ2, whatever where someone who is at say "Level 40" does get to wipe whole groups of younger players. That's disgusting to me, especially when you consider that what makes EVE and its pvp unique is that players, from the get-go can group up, and compete with the older players in the game. -Karlemgne
Aya Otosaki	Posted - 2007.11.23 18:50:00 - [67] I agree, battleships are underpowerd. ----- Ignorance is my strength.
JA RULER Caldari Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.11.23 20:07:00 - [68] there is some good points to the OP topic. it seems the older you get th emore you just sit in dreads and titans without any real action. only those who stay in cruisers and noobs get any real joy from the game anymore. plus think about it. take the word we have today. do you really think 5 frigs or 5 cruisers will beat a battleship on sea? battleships are awsome. take the old warhips of the 1st and 2nd war. they would go out on there own and be untouchable unless bombed from above or torped from a sub in its path. irt would do same speed as anything else on the sea and use its range effectivly, anything getting ckise would be wiped out. the balance has gone in the game and it would be nice to have it restored a little. stop nerfing everything though and just give BS a upgrade will you in sensors and means to fight smaller ships as it should. in the world today you fit the best tech you can on it and for that reason its matched up on par with sensors and the like. it should actully be far better sensor wise as more space to use best equipment. BS shoudl come wita better in built counter jamming against ew weapons at least. there should be a better bonus for guidence and weapon tracking and damage. not nerfed to hell. what i hate is that that missiles seem to be limited to speed they can do but ships are not yet it should be easier to get more speed out of a missile than a person in a ship due to physical problems of g force and teh ability to think faster and react faster than a missile/computer. i would like to see more mods to get missile speed equal to catch those doing 10kms in intys and dictors. like i say there needs to be a balance, bs cost more beacuse they should be able to withstand more and do more. Your signature is too large. Please see the Forum Rules for the limits - Serathu ([email protected]) The sig was awesome though. -Oiri
TigerWoman	Posted - 2007.11.23 20:10:00 - [69] so lets say said 40mil char is in his mega and gets attacked by 4x 10 mil sp characters in celestis , blackbird , maller and caracal which are specced with their 10 mil for their ships and the mega goes up in flames. is it unfair for the 40 mil char that he just got beaten up by 4 t1 cruisers? i think older players still have the edge cause they have more skills like basic shield skills for better recharge and base amount when you fly an armor tanked ship. a newer player who trained for armor tanked skills first won't have the basic shield skills. and on the other hand that 10 mil sp character (-learning skills, -fitting skills...) might fly some smaller ships decently, but a 40 mil sp char has the choice between blasterthron, domi, eos, astarte, myrm or whatever and will be good in all ships. old chars can choose and can adept easily to any needed gang while the 10 mil guys cannot. and older chars should be more experienced in general combat mechanics. i think it is good that younger players can make a difference in eve when they specialised themselfves and fly a ship they have the skills for. i started eve this year and i am happy that i could actually do something in fights. scenarios like WOW where you cannot do anything to your enemy cause you are like 10 lvls below just suck.
Fon Revedhort Aeria Gloris Inc United Legion	Posted - 2007.11.23 20:35:00 - [70] Originally by: Aya Otosaki I agree, battleships are underpowerd. Are you kidding, right? Atm BS can take out any ship below its size, that combined with their modest skill requirments and low prices makes them the best ship class out there. How exactly is this 'underpowered'? They are way too good imo, their agility and warp travel speed should be like twice lower. Than I can actually call'em balanced versus other craft. ---
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.23 20:37:00 - [71] Except for Capital Ships, pretty much every "good" ship in the game can be piloted reasonably well after a year or less of training (in some cases a lot less time). Old players "focused" on certain classes will have an edge, but only a moderate one. This is as it should be. Assuming a "normal" engagement, with neither side being idiots, if I engage 4 players that have 1/4 my skill points, I should lose badly. (specific fights can be VERY different.....) Play nice while you butcher each other.
Tuschii Filthy Scum	Posted - 2007.11.23 21:08:00 - [72] Originally by: F'nog This is the reason we give WoW (and other) players that Eve is better than their games: that new players can do something and actually beat vets. There's a reason the devs changed the way tracking worked so that 1400mms couldn't one-shot a frig orbiting at 500m. Or that they stopped torps from WTFPWNing frigs with one torp. It's called balance. As Oveur has said, no ship should be a solopwnmobile. Any time numbers defeat skill points, it's a good thing, IMO. Basically what I was gonna say ----
TardRusher	Posted - 2007.11.24 11:19:00 - [73] Originally by: Karlemgne Ehnnnh... Wrong Answer! You fail at eve. Never has eve been a game where a 40 million SP character could automatically yipe an entire gang of 10 million SP characters. If you think eve ever operated like this I'm not sure you've been playing the game long enough to actually have 40 million SP. To make matters worse for you, you seem to be suggesting that eve should be a game like WoW, EQ2, whatever where someone who is at say "Level 40" does get to wipe whole groups of younger players. That's disgusting to me, especially when you consider that what makes EVE and its pvp unique is that players, from the get-go can group up, and compete with the older players in the game. -Karlemgne I've seen 2 t1 frigates (Rifter and kestrel I think) and a t1 cruiser (Blackbird) (all 3 were less than a month old) take out a bs (Megathron w/ 30msp, very pvp specced-or so he said). It took a really long time, but it was done. I find that a little disconcerting. Admittedly, I found it hilarious at the time, but I do believe that is a bit silly. People say 'don't fly alone noob!' then cry about blobs. They claim to be trying to 'fix' blobs, but everything they do, seems to be creating larger blobs. They bring out new ships and mods for us to train for, but everything gets nerfed after a few months to close the gap between newer players and older ones.
TardRusher	Posted - 2007.11.24 11:22:00 - [74] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Originally by: TardRusher The game will continually be dumbed down to please the newer players. The thought seems to be that with every 10 old players that leave, another 15 new ones will take their place. Basically we're all f'ed. You're one of the guys dumbing it down. Please leave. Yeah. Try reading some of your own posts and say that again. MAYBE IF I PUT EVERYTHING IN CAPS, LIKE YOU DO, THEN I'LL BE SUPERSMART LIKE YOU. And today is my last day. My last sub expires today. No, you can't have my stuff.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.24 12:05:00 - [75] Originally by: TardRusher I've seen 2 t1 frigates (Rifter and kestrel I think) and a t1 cruiser (Blackbird) (all 3 were less than a month old) take out a bs (Megathron w/ 30msp, very pvp specced-or so he said). It took a really long time, but it was done. I find that a little disconcerting...... Everything happened exactly as it was susposed to. Good job CCP. So say I, and my 55mil SPs. Solo battleships are victims waiting to happen in pvp. While you can usually fit a BS to be good against some types of threats, there will always be a gapping vulnerability that make the "solo" Battleship an easy kill for someone. If a "solo" Battleship does not have a SERIOUS vulnerability that even noobs can exploit fairly easily in normal play, then something is wrong. (Note: Any vulnerability that never seems to be exploited in normal play is not an actually vulnerability, so does not count.) Play nice while you butcher each other.
Zenst Gallente Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.11.24 22:12:00 - [76] As an older player I too have noticed a trend along exactly what you said. More a trend in devaluing l5 skills and some perversion to balance without factoring in skill training as any effort at all. My advice - and another trend - some nub with naff all SP's in disposable ship like a BB or scorp setup to remote boost you. Of course this does nothing for the little people who like to play in small groups or solo - helps blobbies more :\|. Basicly the BH chaps speakith alot of truths - discuss. The days of L5's it seems, Are nerfed to death by mindless meems, One day your char of SP investment begates, To drones of mindless noobs with plates. So your ship of cost you see, Is now just pretty eye-candy, Until another takes it's place, Some ****-ant frigate with noob on plates. How the old are retort, To all the changes that rarely court, So your SP's of height decree, Were all just noob's with start date 03.
Grace	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:08:00 - [77] Having how much SP is irrelevent to how effective you are in combat in relation to your target, it never has. What is relevent is how you make use of that SP, and how your setup compare to your enemies. Having 40 mil SP itself does not guarantee you victory, and I'm glad it doesn't. Flying a battleship alone with large guns and no drones with 40 mil SP to engage a gang of 4 frigates or cruiser is a fantastic way of losing your ship. And what is wrong with support ships having a role in combat? If all you care is doing damage then be my guest, but I don't see the problem with several less SP characters who specialize in their role beating the high SP character who is alone being a problem.
Druadan Gallente Aristotle Enterprises Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:04:00 - [78] Edited by: Druadan on 25/11/2007 00:05:00 I agree that no ship should be a solopwnmobile, but the scenario DHB outlined on the first page was his ship being fit for multiple roles, being weak at those roles, but being able to apply such that a rag-tag gang would have a hard time taking him down. There is a difference between a solopwnmobile, and being able to beat a bad gang. I agree with teamplay being encouraged, but clever teamplay, not just ''yeah, there's more on team A than B, so A win''. More and more, we're seeing CCP hand over the victory to the numbers, regardless of whether or not it is a well thought out. Everything is about the fear of a 'solopwnmobile', and 'risk vs. reward', but smarts vs. reward is completely forgotten. Look at the introduction of the jump freighter and the removal of useful, viable jump logistics ships (carrier and rorqual) as logistics ships -- logistics being the transportation of supplies. This means minor logistics runs have to be done with freighters, so a gatecamp can completely disrupt an alliance's supply lines. Before this, you needed to be smart to accomplish this, and catch the logistics run at its POS. Now you don't even need to be serious about it to take out a logistics supply line. Scripts further this trend, as EWAR is no longer a viable defence against a rag-tag gang. I have absolutely no idea why CCP felt sensor boosters needed to be nerfed. Dampeners I understand, but they really took this idea and ran with it all the way to the 18-yard box. Forgive the sports analogy, but I really think taking the final step and scoring might actually do more harm than good. EVE is getting more tedious and more generic day by day. Gone is variety, gone is the unpredictability of PVP, and gone is innovative ship fittings. It's getting to the point where if you attempt to achieve anything other than hitpoints or DPS, it's a fool's errand. These aren't fixes we're seeing, they're a magnolia finish to what used to be a beautiful brass fitting on the Titanic. Another change in favour of bland equality over interesting and fun gameplay. -Dru
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:09:00 - [79] Originally by: JA RULER there is some good points to the OP topic. it seems the older you get th emore you just sit in dreads and titans without any real action. only those who stay in cruisers and noobs get any real joy from the game anymore. plus think about it. take the word we have today. do you really think 5 frigs or 5 cruisers will beat a battleship on sea? battleships are awsome. take the old warhips of the 1st and 2nd war. they would go out on there own and be untouchable unless bombed from above or torped from a sub in its path. irt would do same speed as anything else on the sea and use its range effectivly, anything getting ckise would be wiped out. the balance has gone in the game and it would be nice to have it restored a little. stop nerfing everything though and just give BS a upgrade will you in sensors and means to fight smaller ships as it should. in the world today you fit the best tech you can on it and for that reason its matched up on par with sensors and the like. it should actully be far better sensor wise as more space to use best equipment. BS shoudl come wita better in built counter jamming against ew weapons at least. there should be a better bonus for guidence and weapon tracking and damage. not nerfed to hell. what i hate is that that missiles seem to be limited to speed they can do but ships are not yet it should be easier to get more speed out of a missile than a person in a ship due to physical problems of g force and teh ability to think faster and react faster than a missile/computer. i would like to see more mods to get missile speed equal to catch those doing 10kms in intys and dictors. like i say there needs to be a balance, bs cost more beacuse they should be able to withstand more and do more. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_pocket_battleship_Admiral_Graf_Spee CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Kilostream Caldari Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:35:00 - [80] Hmmm, The more I think about this the more confused I get about what I actually think about it!!! I think aside from the many and varied valid points raised so far in this thread, the main fundamental paradox with eve, for me, revolves around one thing, and one thing only - Lag. CCP has stated time and again that there should be no such thing as a solo pwnmobile which, in itself is laudable enough. However, to support this stance they have deliberately and meticulously brought about the situation where we all need to buddy up and go out as groups to pwn, because you can't really expect to go out solo and pwn much at all, besides the odd stoned NPCer. Noble though this careful perparation is, lag is undoing all the good work - the moment we have a fleet (and comparable enemy fleet) of 10 or so numbers, the lag begins. Multiply the figures out to an alliance-scale fleetfight and you have a completely unplayable game (right when you need it to be it's most playable!) I sympathise with CCP, I cannot even begin to imagine the hassles they must have to overcome to bring us this unsharded virtual universe but, even using the awesome hardware they are currently employing, the lag in a multi-player situation is still pretty horrible (if you have never been in a fleetfight, go to Jita and fly around trying to buy stuff - you will get a flavour of the experience, even if you don't get a lossmail flash up in your mailbox whilst still flying the ship concerned around in space!!!) I'm not really sure where I'm going with this train of thought, but i think it's somewhere along the lines that, until lag is a thing of the past, and we can form gangs as big as we like with impunity, I think we should be cut a bit of slack on the nerfs particularly on the ships and modules favoured by the solo pvp-ers, because often times going out solo is your best chance to get some lag-free pvp gameplay. And definitely cut the walking in stations crap. Unless it has streetfighteresque sub-games where we can challenge other pod pilots to fisticuffs duels!!! If that can happen, I'm all for it!
Araviel Gallente Epic.	Posted - 2007.11.25 06:25:00 - [81] Originally by: DHB WildCat In the old days of EVE a 40 mil sp character would go around in his Mega / Domi / Scorpion or whatever and if he came accross 4 10 mil sp characters he would kill them all. In those days you were rewarded for being an older player, spending more time and isk on skills and ships. A battleship would kill 4 cruisers. However it seems eve has now turned to numbers. what you sold you character? back when battleships where gods we only had 10m sp at most, that was along time ago i think it was very well established what ccp wanted battleships to be when tracking got introduced ----------------
Topaz Skydiver Minmatar Narrative Freshfood	Posted - 2007.11.25 07:49:00 - [82] Edited by: Topaz Skydiver on 25/11/2007 07:49:27 Originally by: F'nog Any time numbers defeat skill points, it's a good thing, IMO. Imho it should be player experience, good teamplay and tactics defeat numbers. If 10 players know what they are doing and fighting against 20, who don't, the 10 should win, even if both sides have the same amounts of SP. PvP games should be more about playing well than about numbers or skillpoints. --------------------------------------------- snip
WhiteSavage Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.25 07:55:00 - [83] I love older players whining that they should be able to pwn anything. Since you should be able to do everything these newer players can do + more you will ALWAYS have the advantage. But now you demand pure pwnership and whine that CCP doesnt care when they dont make you god? Pound Sand Dingleberry. ___________________________________________ Facta Non Verba
Freya Runestone Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.11.25 08:14:00 - [84] your first 10mil SP is worth a lot more than your last 10mil SP ex. any skill trained from lv 0-1 gives you the same bonus as when you train it from 4-5, but training it from 4-5 takes a ton of SP compared to the first level. so 4 10mil SP characters wont equal your 40m SP, they will surpass it, by quite a bit probably, because they have less SP invested per skill level compared to you, so all in all they have more skills(added together) than you do. I hope that makes sense. __________________________________ need a new sig :(
Seteshi	Posted - 2007.11.25 09:04:00 - [85] Skill points are one thing, common sense is another. SP doesn't eliminate the need for the latter. If you manage to get your battleship into a disadvantageous fight and get ganked by fast movers, you deserved exactly what you got, in my opinion.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.11.25 09:27:00 - [86] Edited by: Grimpak on 25/11/2007 09:27:52 I have just breached the 50mil SP barrier, and tbh I don't mind that a bunch of organized noobs are able to defeat me when I fly a BS. It was my fault in the first place that I've putted myself in such situation, and thus I must pay. ...of course that I usually only rat/mission run in a BS, since I prefer BC and smaller for PvP, but that's another story but still I like the situation as it is today. it means that I can grab a couple of rag-tag ****-smelling noobs and actually make them usefull in actual combat. --- planetary interaction idea!
Chochko Bulgarian Mafia Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2007.11.25 10:25:00 - [87] Edited by: Chochko on 25/11/2007 10:31:28 Edited by: Chochko on 25/11/2007 10:28:55 :) Lets say we have bunch of newbs with all skills for their ship of choice (t1 cruiser) at lvl 4. Including locking speed and time, cap regen, etc. And we have on the other side a Vet with all skills for his ship of choice (Mega) at lvl 5. What is the difference ? The newbs having handicap of 5% on all stats for their ship compared to the vet. They will have a bit less from the max Cap, shield, hull, armor, PG, CPU, lock speed, lock time etc. Their combined DPS will be more, they will have 2 times more mid slots - so more EW, they are smaller and harder to hit from BS weap. Yes 4 cruisers must be able to kill one battleship when it is alone. This extra SP you have over each of this hypothetic newbs dont give you the right to say: Originally by: DHB WildCat if he came accross 4 10 mil sp characters he would kill them all. You have to invent new "Tactic". Your old one was a bit lame but very effective, at least this is in your plus. There is always a way to do it, CCP are not so stupid. And by YOU i mean all BE. ------------------------------------------- Sig
Nyack GREY COUNCIL Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.11.25 10:26:00 - [88] BS are not underpowered.. carriers are overpowered.. if you take a gang into low sec or 0,0 with more then 4 bs you know sooner or later u are going to get jumped by moms or carriers. an organized bs fleet should have no issues with nano gangs as they can remote rep and tank it out after all they dont do that much damage with nano setups.. but the fact that carriers and moms can *****bs gangs so easy with litte effort and so little support needed is just wrong.. i will never use any of the T2 bs until carriers are nerfed.. (yes i have carrier my self with most relevant skills at lvl 5, but they still need a good nerf) dont blame pvp:ers for using nanoships there are just very little options as bigger ships gets raped by carriers and moms. nerf carriers!!
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.25 11:10:00 - [89] Nah eve is fine as it is. We dont want another WoW where a level 70 can kill basically as many lvl 1-60 as you could come up with. Sure skill and age should mean something but its way out of wack in most other mmo's. This is the beauty of eve, even a 1 week old corpie can pitch in and put a point with a frig to help out his friends and be useful. How often you see lvl 70s run around with level 2s in WoW? Never, and its sad.
Leuthispar Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.25 12:29:00 - [90] No offense, but a lot of the ppl posting here seem to not understand what reading comprehention is. When after reading something you are able to understand the whole point of the article/story in this case post, and not just take one line of it and think that is the main point and ignore the rest. In this case how many of you keep mentioning the BS solopwnmobile. From what I understand, what DHB is talking about is how CCP is gradually nerfing older player's advantage, and calling it "balacing the game". Now i dont claim to know DHB except he has killed me a few times but from his known history he is a PVPer to the heart. Plays EvE because it is a game that distinguishes itself from other MMORPGS in the sense that you can spend years training for PVP(training skills, buying the best gear and learning new tactics) and be rewarded by it, by excelling and killing your enemies who instead have mediocre PVP skills, tactics, gear. Now on to his concern. While I have only been playing for almost 2 years, I too see the trend and the direction CCP is taking the game. They are "balancing the game" in order to accomodate newer players, and eliminating that distinctive aspect of PVP that makes EvE different from other games. I believe part of this is because since the game has grown so much in player size so has its "carebear size" a lot more players tired of playing WoW and other games coming to EvE and not used to the fact that this is a PVP oriented game and yes you will be at a disadvantage going against older, better equipped, smarter players. Unlike other games where you can be as good as a 3 year old year player, in just a few months taking into account you learn fast and have the gear(Not biased because I also play other games like WoW ) I also think CCP intentionally mean to do this in order to attract more players, because at the end of the day CCP are a bussiness and the primary purpose of that is to make profit. Yes, while making players satisfied will attract more and also be incentive to the current ones to stay, it is not the primary purpose of a bussiness, it is to make money like any other out there. By no means am I saying they are wrong or I hate them for that, CCP have made an awesome game and have been succesful and for that I congratulate them. But at the same time I share the concern of DHB and wonder how much further will this go? I am confident that the game will not turn into WoW but just how far from it?, when is enough nerfing enough? How much like other games do they wanna be? Do they want to have million of subscribers but not have the unique PVP aspect anymore? CCP, while there are a lot more "carebear" players out there and of course the mayor concensus will always favor their opinions and ideas, dont forget that regardless of how you change the game most of the older players will still play game and adapt and not quit after 3-6 months because the game is not fair, this small group is most of the group that fills your Fanfest. So please dont forget the "old saltys" and the PVPers and give them some love. P.S. Where are you nowadays DHB havnt died to you in a while lol. CAOD A forum for threads with words like: deterministic alts, drama continuations, lagsploits generators, nodecrash extrapolation , killboard stat shader, forum ban distribution, etc.
Estel Arador Minmatar AFK	Posted - 2007.11.25 12:50:00 - [91] Originally by: DHB WildCat This is due entirely to scripts. Your logic is flawed. Scripts will apply to mods which can do two things. At the moment they can do both things at full efficiency. With scripts, they can either do two things at half efficiency or one at full efficiency. This means that after the patch you'll need to modules to get the same effect as you have with one module now. How is it "due entirely to scripts" then? The modules are getting nerfed to oblivion instead of getting boosted as you seem to implying. =AFK=
Armoured C Gallente Globaltech Industries Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2007.11.25 12:54:00 - [92] yor forgetting that just because it a reasonablly young player they could have skilled up for a specific ship which makes them powerful at the ship yes you can use more ships with your more skills but for someone who has specifially skilled up in trained up to max in a ship then they are going to be a threat weather they have smaller or more points than you logic is flawed
kla samon	Posted - 2007.11.25 12:58:00 - [93] In the old days this was indeed the case, but I would argue that ships in the old days were very unbalanced and not much attention was paid to role specific classes. Theoretically, each ship is designed to fit a role in a fleet - not to fly solo and I think ccp is, over time, taking that approach. I know real life comparisons are lame but in real life you will never see a carrier or a battleship alone on the battlefield. They are surrounded by a fleet of EW, anti missile, anti aircraft and a variety of other logistics and role specific ships that support and defend them so they can do their job of bringing in the heavy fire power. Granted dreads are now pretty much the new modern day equivalent to battleships.
Gragnor Ordos Humanitas Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.25 13:15:00 - [94] More to the point: do CCP care about the older player? Personally, I have to start questioning whether they do. Artillery is copping amassive nerf here, YET AGAIN. Look at the Minnie maurander, we cannot give you massive alpha any more so we give you a tracking boost. To the CCP design genius's I ask this: what use is a tracking boost when it takes me twice as long to lock up a cruiser? By the time I have locked it - its already dictating the range of the engagement. CCP really dont care what the "vet" thinks which is why all the "vet" ships like carriers etc are getting nerfed. Their view of the game is for lots of close range long time engagements with multiple players; something they have made abundantly clear. They are not interested in solo PvP. They are not interested in diversity - they want everyone to be fitted the same way. That's short range tank and gank. Their view of the game is for small short range raiding gangs and they will nerf and chip away at anything that doesn't fit into it. Minmitar ships are the classic example. When was the last time you saw autopests in gangs? Be honest, when? Me, I haven't seen one for months and I refuse to use a minnie autocannon bs due to poor large gun tracking, lesser dps and weaker than competitor tank. I would be better off in a blasterthron or a dommi. I now have no choice BUT to nano up in a smaller faster ship if I want to fly minnie ships. The constant nerfing of alpha strike by CCP confirms to me that they see artillery as EVIL. Alpha strike is slowly and constantly being whittled away as an effective combat tool which removes a distinct game style advantageous to the older, more skilled player. CCP don't care about it beacuse its what they want to acheive from a business strategy perspective. Changing these mods is simply CCP's way of going about their vision for the game. The trouble is, in ignoring the older player, they disenfranchise them. CCP doesn't care as they want more newer players. The business strategy is not retain the older, harder to service customer base but get the new punter in, hold onto them for six months and then let them go. That's a change from the past. If older players continually wtfpwn noobs then this won't be achieved. So expect more nerfage of sniping in particular. And CCP will not care what you say, how correct or how reasoned and logical your arguement is; that's the game they want. IMHO CCP does not respect sniping battleships. The constant changes and nerfing, making them more and more vulnerable to smaller specialised ships which they cannot deal with is part of their strategy. I still cannot believe an interceptor post Trinity will be able to scramble a battleship and the Battleship's ONLY defence will be drones. Damps wont work as the inty will have a quicker lock time and will simply orbit closer if you do reduce the range. Smartbombs will be of limited use as the range of scramblers is being lengthened. ECM won't work as its being buffed for ECM ships only. Nos and Nuetralisers have been nerfed against smaller ships so they won't work. That leaves drones - which quite interestingly are getting changed as well. All the inty has to do is run away from the drones while killing them, something it is perfectly equipped to do. So, how does a lone uber skilled and fitted bs defend itself against a lone tackling inty. The answer is that it cannot. The inty just won't be able to break the bs's tank. The day of the battleship as the main combat ship in Eve is dying. And CCP doesn't care because that's the way they want it. It is the main reason for the constant nerfage of battleships combat effectiveness against smaller ships.
Armoured C Gallente Globaltech Industries Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2007.11.25 13:23:00 - [95] Edited by: Armoured C on 25/11/2007 13:25:00 gragnor there a reason that carriers are getting nerfed (dont agree with mothership getting nerfed) and they have hold back on that aswell it because the cant do everything they said they are thinking about what they are going to do but you know yourself somethign need to be done about it weather a fitting ti to be included to give it somethign like scripts do to damps now all of something or something of nothing ooh before you say yes i hate the idea of damps getting this nerf and carriers but unlike you and whine i ADAPT AND DEAL WITH IT instead of crying infront of all the other posters on this thread pull your self together
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.11.25 13:48:00 - [96] Originally by: Armoured C ooh before you say yes i hate the idea of damps getting this nerf and carriers but unlike you and whine i ADAPT AND DEAL WITH IT instead of crying infront of all the other posters on this thread indeed. in case of the gallente recons I'll adapt and train caldari cruiser 5. --- planetary interaction idea!
Popsikle Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.25 14:50:00 - [97] Originally by: DHB WildCat I apologise for the confusion, let me try to clear things up. Younger players in smaller ships should die to an older player in a larger ship, right? Well scripts are allowing ships like the new EW ships to be able to get to and disable fleet Battleships before they can even be locked. There is no gap anymore between older and younger players. As far as tactics - We'll take my Raven. I can right now, effectively battle 5-10 ships, depending on the gang make-up. This is because I spent near 3 years training missiles skills and EW skills to the maximum limit. Damps allow me to negate 3 ships, missiles will take out the weaker ones, and the neuts will take out the ceptors with my drones. This is no longer possible with scripts. My main point is that a 1 day old rifter pilot is now as important as a 4 year old Battleship pilot. I think that is wrong. WildCat DONT PANIC! YOU STILL HAVE YOUR CLOAK ON YUOR RAVEN! 4 younger players should be able to take out one older player, yes. ____ <t20> i want to be in a manager potition at Hooters <SaraDawn> Garthagk, do you have it up ? <Garthagk> I can get it up anytime.
Prez21 coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.25 14:53:00 - [98] I dont think alot of people understand what the op is trying to say, its not a whine about new players being effective in pvp, its the fact that alot of older players have put alot of time and effort into training and learning how to use modules and skills to there advantage to then having to sit back and whatch these skills and mods be nerfed to near uselessness. It just seems so many older players have wasted there time training certain skills, and ccp dont seem to care. Im glad i never bothered training for cap ships because that looks like it will be a hell of alot of time and isk wasted for many pilots who have
Popsikle Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:00:00 - [99] Originally by: Prez21 I dont think alot of people understand what the op is trying to say, its not a whine about new players being effective in pvp, its the fact that alot of older players have put alot of time and effort into training and learning how to use modules and skills to there advantage to then having to sit back and whatch these skills and mods be nerfed to near uselessness. It just seems so many older players have wasted there time training certain skills, and ccp dont seem to care. Im glad i never bothered training for cap ships because that looks like it will be a hell of alot of time and isk wasted for many pilots who have My alt has about 15 mil SP in ArtyPests and about 12 mil SP in flying the Nidhogger as best as it can be flown. I understand completely about the waste of SP that whole account is now but when it comes down to it, CCP makes changes and they dont look back or dont look at what it does to the older players looking for diversity. We just have to adapt and move on, or quit playing, but there is no need to ***** about it, imo. ____ <t20> i want to be in a manager potition at Hooters <SaraDawn> Garthagk, do you have it up ? <Garthagk> I can get it up anytime.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:01:00 - [100] Originally by: Prez21 I dont think alot of people understand what the op is trying to say, its not a whine about new players being effective in pvp, its the fact that alot of older players have put alot of time and effort into training and learning how to use modules and skills to there advantage to then having to sit back and whatch these skills and mods be nerfed to near uselessness. It just seems so many older players have wasted there time training certain skills, and ccp dont seem to care. Im glad i never bothered training for cap ships because that looks like it will be a hell of alot of time and isk wasted for many pilots who have Yeah it must suck when you train for a solopwnmobile and when you get there it's not a solopwnmobile anymore. Fortunately I train for certain ships because I like the ship, not what it can do, so I have never and will never experience this personally. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Prez21 coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:06:00 - [101] Originally by: Popsikle Originally by: Prez21 I dont think alot of people understand what the op is trying to say, its not a whine about new players being effective in pvp, its the fact that alot of older players have put alot of time and effort into training and learning how to use modules and skills to there advantage to then having to sit back and whatch these skills and mods be nerfed to near uselessness. It just seems so many older players have wasted there time training certain skills, and ccp dont seem to care. Im glad i never bothered training for cap ships because that looks like it will be a hell of alot of time and isk wasted for many pilots who have My alt has about 15 mil SP in ArtyPests and about 12 mil SP in flying the Nidhogger as best as it can be flown. I understand completely about the waste of SP that whole account is now but when it comes down to it, CCP makes changes and they dont look back or dont look at what it does to the older players looking for diversity. We just have to adapt and move on, or quit playing, but there is no need to ***** about it, imo. im not whinning about it im just pointing out what i think the op is trying to state in his post, it doesnt rely bother me in anyway, but i can understand why some older players get annoyed when it seems they have wasted there time training for somthing to see it turned into a ueless module.
Prez21 coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:08:00 - [102] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Prez21 I dont think alot of people understand what the op is trying to say, its not a whine about new players being effective in pvp, its the fact that alot of older players have put alot of time and effort into training and learning how to use modules and skills to there advantage to then having to sit back and whatch these skills and mods be nerfed to near uselessness. It just seems so many older players have wasted there time training certain skills, and ccp dont seem to care. Im glad i never bothered training for cap ships because that looks like it will be a hell of alot of time and isk wasted for many pilots who have Yeah it must suck when you train for a solopwnmobile and when you get there it's not a solopwnmobile anymore. Fortunately I train for certain ships because I like the ship, not what it can do, so I have never and will never experience this personally. No one trains for a solopwnmobile, your missing the point completely, people do however train for certain ships and modules to then see these ships and mods nerfed to hell and realise they have wasted alot of time and isk on them.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:12:00 - [103] Originally by: Prez21 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Prez21 I dont think alot of people understand what the op is trying to say, its not a whine about new players being effective in pvp, its the fact that alot of older players have put alot of time and effort into training and learning how to use modules and skills to there advantage to then having to sit back and whatch these skills and mods be nerfed to near uselessness. It just seems so many older players have wasted there time training certain skills, and ccp dont seem to care. Im glad i never bothered training for cap ships because that looks like it will be a hell of alot of time and isk wasted for many pilots who have Yeah it must suck when you train for a solopwnmobile and when you get there it's not a solopwnmobile anymore. Fortunately I train for certain ships because I like the ship, not what it can do, so I have never and will never experience this personally. No one trains for a solopwnmobile, your missing the point completely, people do however train for certain ships and modules to then see these ships and mods nerfed to hell and realise they have wasted alot of time and isk on them. Not being able to solopwn anymore is exactly what the OP was talking about. In some circumstances yes, ships unfairly get nerfed completely into oblivion. This is very unusual and is not happening here. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Prez21 coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:19:00 - [104] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Prez21 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Prez21 I dont think alot of people understand what the op is trying to say, its not a whine about new players being effective in pvp, its the fact that alot of older players have put alot of time and effort into training and learning how to use modules and skills to there advantage to then having to sit back and whatch these skills and mods be nerfed to near uselessness. It just seems so many older players have wasted there time training certain skills, and ccp dont seem to care. Im glad i never bothered training for cap ships because that looks like it will be a hell of alot of time and isk wasted for many pilots who have Yeah it must suck when you train for a solopwnmobile and when you get there it's not a solopwnmobile anymore. Fortunately I train for certain ships because I like the ship, not what it can do, so I have never and will never experience this personally. No one trains for a solopwnmobile, your missing the point completely, people do however train for certain ships and modules to then see these ships and mods nerfed to hell and realise they have wasted alot of time and isk on them. Not being able to solopwn anymore is exactly what the OP was talking about. In some circumstances yes, ships unfairly get nerfed completely into oblivion. This is very unusual and is not happening here. Ok i agree the example sed by the op isnt great with the bs beating 4 cruisers, but the main point in the post is that you can no longer do alot of tasks that you once could on your own, and that alot of you sp that you have invested is next to useless and you need to realy on more and more allies to be able to do anyhing. Im not saying you should be able to do everything on your own but it seems even alot of the basic tasks and pvp encounters are impossible to do solo.
JabJabVVV Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:19:00 - [105] I'm not sure if I understand the op correctly so I'll paraphrase what I think he means just to make it clear which issues I am debating: 'high SP characters in battleships should be able to beat several low SP characters in smaller, less skill intensive, ships but due to balancing etc 4 frigates piloted by noobs can beat a Battleship piloted by a vet' I partially agree and partially disagree by the sentiments expressed here: I agree in the sense that a skilful, high SP character should be able to beat low SP characters in comparable ships and fittings and guess what... they can! However I think the OP has got it wrong with his focus on the battleship as the be all and end all of PvP ships; in my opinion it shouldn't be (and indeed it isn't) the ultimate pwnmobile, it should have a role and it should fulfil that role (and it does both). The roles of all ships are currently balanced really rather well: if you want a fleet ship or heavy fire support in a small gang you fly a BS, nothing does this job better and nor should it. If you want a roaming ship you fly a HAC or Field command ship (or an AF/inty if you are a pikey) again nothing does it better. If you are poor or a noob or an idiot you fly a T1 cruiser or frigate, they are generally rubbish but are cheap and you might get lucky if you have the numbers. Even cap ships and super caps are pretty balanced. My only slight issue from the balance point of view is with tackling, webbing and bubbles (static and dictor) - I think they are somewhat poorly implemented and could do with a bit of revision. What effects scripts will have, well, I'll wait and see before commenting. What I think CCP should concentrate on, now that that balance is pretty good, is making high end combat (fleet warfare basically) exciting: 'warp to <gang mate> at <range> then shoot <target 1> then shoot <target 2> then warp to <gang mate>' being the only order that is required to control a fleet of several hundred ships is utter, utter boll*cks and when combined with crippling lag it turns what could be the best gaming experience money can buy into a tedious and frustrating nightmare. ----------- When I was a n00b, I spake as a n00b, I understood as a n00b, I thought as a n00b: but when I became pr0, I put away n00bish things.
Jenera Shad	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:29:00 - [106] on hearing these changes it became immediatley apparent that sniping is going to suffer heavily with this patch. Particularly battleship snipers. It is difficult to find arguments that suggest anything other than ccp are trying to slowly remove any way for a small number of players to combat a large number of players. It will also most likely, fundamentally change the way fleet battles happen. The stab nerf, the introduction of dictors, the jav torp nerf.....all of these were touted as changes that would stop the burn eden style of play none of them will come close to the scripting patch in messing up their play style. Still, guess we've all got to adapt at some point
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:30:00 - [107] Originally by: Prez21 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Prez21 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Prez21 I dont think alot of people understand what the op is trying to say, its not a whine about new players being effective in pvp, its the fact that alot of older players have put alot of time and effort into training and learning how to use modules and skills to there advantage to then having to sit back and whatch these skills and mods be nerfed to near uselessness. It just seems so many older players have wasted there time training certain skills, and ccp dont seem to care. Im glad i never bothered training for cap ships because that looks like it will be a hell of alot of time and isk wasted for many pilots who have Yeah it must suck when you train for a solopwnmobile and when you get there it's not a solopwnmobile anymore. Fortunately I train for certain ships because I like the ship, not what it can do, so I have never and will never experience this personally. No one trains for a solopwnmobile, your missing the point completely, people do however train for certain ships and modules to then see these ships and mods nerfed to hell and realise they have wasted alot of time and isk on them. Not being able to solopwn anymore is exactly what the OP was talking about. In some circumstances yes, ships unfairly get nerfed completely into oblivion. This is very unusual and is not happening here. Ok i agree the example sed by the op isnt great with the bs beating 4 cruisers, but the main point in the post is that you can no longer do alot of tasks that you once could on your own, and that alot of you sp that you have invested is next to useless and you need to realy on more and more allies to be able to do anyhing. Im not saying you should be able to do everything on your own but it seems even alot of the basic tasks and pvp encounters are impossible to do solo. The SP don't become useless, you can still do the task they are there to enable you to do - it's just the task has changed. The role you trained for may now require support to be successful, but you can still fight in that role better than anyone else because of all your skills. Like I said, I agree that it sucks for people who have put in a lot of time, but it's not like CCP are saying 'Ship X is being removed from the game, those of you who trained for it are screwed', they are saying 'Ship X will now go from doing Y to doing Z, where Z is Y but with a gang supporting you'. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Earthan Gallente The Absolutely Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:31:00 - [108] Well i disagree with op, A sniping bs not being able to kill a interceptor with its LARGE guns is a good thing. You got drones for this, you can fit some small guns/launchers or hvy nutrlizers if you want to be better. To the 1 bs as 4 t1 cruisers: im pretty sure i would kill them in my standard fitted short range dominix tm, even if it was a respectable imho mix lets say: blackbird , celestis, 2 thoraxes for dmg. I agree a bit that vet players dont have the huge advantages they have in other games, but i think its good. And yes as somebody said, any pilot with 6 month is a serious threat.He can max out nearly for example intie class and pwn you even 1-1.Even if you got 70 milions sp.Wich is imho fine - Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy hunting stories
DHB WildCat BURN EDEN	Posted - 2007.11.25 16:19:00 - [109] I know I do a really bad job of getting my point accross. The battleship scenario is an example people. Stop focusing on solopwn mobiles. Hell I use an alt to tackle I dont solo anything! Unless its an idiot in a vaga that thinks it can tackle me then forgets to warp 8) lol. There have been many excellent replies that get my point accross far better than I am capable of, thank you guys. So to try to clarify. Im sure Ill get the omg stop whining your Burn Eden go cloak somewhere and kill a hauler. SP are what we use to seperate older players from younger ones. Lets face it, it takes several years just to train support skills before you even think about specializing. So a character that specialized in lets say a damp raven. Scenario - Raven comes out of warp 180km from Misaba gate in R3-K7K... lets just say 8). Around the gate is an arazu, ishtar, sacrelige, 2 herectics, 2 geddons, malediction, and an aeon.... lets just say. Raven dampens the geddons, and his mate lets call him Captain Rick**** dampens the ishtar and sac. Our rapier call him Shin Ra I guess, webs and the ravens kill incoming dictors / malediction. Then focus fire on HAC's, while the dictor throws bubbles up around the gate. HAC's go down, but cant break remote repping on the BS. The 2 BS and Aeon warp out. How could two ravens and a rapier do this? 5 months of training sensor damp skills to lvl5. Almost 2 years training missile skills to lvl5. A year training support skills to lvl5. A few months training ships skills to lvl 5. That is why tactics won. We spent so much time training and "specializing" To only have CCP come and say. "The noobs say you're too good. They cant beat you even with Super Cap support. So we have to eliminate your advantage by nerfing mods that you spent so much time training for. Yes we know they could have fit them on thier ships too, but they cant think that intelligently, besides your training so they work up to 150km, while thiers would only work to 80km, putting 8 hours of training into it is still unfair." This is my point if you cant understand it then to be honest you probably dont pvp, or if you do you are in the larger fleets with the mentality those who have more should win. Hope this clears things up a little. WildCat Oh and do you know why BE began fitting cloaks? We used to not fit them you know, however one day we were killing some guys when 8 carriers came out of warp and put fighters on us. There were large bubbles on the two gates to get out. So we tried to warp around and kill fighters, but there is this thing where a cov-ops can scan you in about 20 seconds, support fleet comes out of warp and we cannot kill all the fighters. After about 2 hours of this, we gave up died to the fighters. The next day we had cloaks. We fit them because CCP makes it impossible now to be in enemy space with out them.
JabJabVVV Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.25 16:50:00 - [110] Edited by: JabJabVVV on 25/11/2007 16:54:53 Ah, I see what you mean now. However I still think you have got it wrong to a pretty large degree: Burn Eden (by all accounts) only PvP when specific sets of circumstances arise. This style of PvP favours specialised fittings over generalised ones. With the upcoming 'nerf' I predict that specialised fittings will have to become more specialised to achieve a similar effectiveness to what they have now (remote sensor boosters etc perhaps?) however generalised fittings will be even less effective than they are now against specialised gangs so PvP will actually become easier for people like BE. EDIT: Basically what I'm saying is: It will be easier for specialised, high SP gangs to adapt and overcome the upcoming module changes than it will be for generalised, lower SP gangs. ----------- When I was a n00b, I spake as a n00b, I understood as a n00b, I thought as a n00b: but when I became pr0, I put away n00bish things.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.11.25 16:57:00 - [111] Originally by: Liam Liam Edited by: Liam Liam on 23/11/2007 14:03:59 I think the point he was trying to make is that a fully skilled battleship with good gun/ missile skills should own a couple of frigs and a couple of cruisers with poor to reasonable skills not the other way round. I can see the problem I think a fully skilled battleship should be able to own frigs but at the moment it can't. To be honest battleships are a bit underpowered. If you cannot own frigs in a BS, you seriously need to contract your BS to me. Still can't fly one, but I can reprocess it to make a lot of Rifters
Kuzya Morozov Gallente Organized Combat Consortium	Posted - 2007.11.25 17:01:00 - [112] I was about to call him a scrub, then I saw he's from Burn Eden, and stfued.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.25 17:22:00 - [113] Originally by: DHB WildCat How could two ravens and a rapier do this? 5 months of training sensor damp skills to lvl5. Almost 2 years training missile skills to lvl5. A year training support skills to lvl5. A few months training ships skills to lvl 5........ Ok, a better argument. But I still disagree, largely for reasons not in your argument. CCP's game is not "static". BOTH players and CCP are constantly CHANGING it. For this reason, CCP "must" nerf, and "must" do so regularly. When CCP nerfs, someone loses some power from invested skill point. Always. And it will always be the vets that lose the most, simply because they will ALWAYS be the ones with the biggest investments. However.... When CCP does a nerf (and the occational buff...), what they are doing is shifting the balance of power of modules and skills, and someone "wins". Guess who wins the most on the skill point aspect? If you guessed "veterans" you guessed right. When Eve becomes static it will be because players and/or CCP are no longer trying. As a final note, I do NOT always agree with CCPs decisions on what to nerf, what to buff and what to leave alone, and I'm vocal about it sometimes, but that is for a seperate thread..... Play nice while you butcher each other.
Valan Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.25 17:33:00 - [114] Originally by: Sergeant Spot When CCP nerfs, someone loses some power from invested skill point. Always. And it will always be the vets that lose the most, simply because they will ALWAYS be the ones with the biggest investments. However.... When CCP does a nerf (and the occational buff...), what they are doing is shifting the balance of power of modules and skills, and someone "wins". Guess who wins the most on the skill point aspect? If you guessed "veterans" you guessed right. True to a certain extent. I'm not constrained by weapon or ship type anymore. I can drift from one bandwagon to the next with ease. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Neutrino Sunset KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.11.25 18:26:00 - [115] Battleships never have been a solopwnmobile. Even before the NOS and ECM nerfs NOS and ECM setups could be countered by passive tanks and those fitting ECCM (although ECCM could have used a buff). Prior to the NOS and ECM nerfs the rock paper sissors effect was very strongly in effect, after the nerf the effect was less pronounced, more radical setups were sidelined and ship setups became more homogenous, more samey. Without the potential for radical setups all thats left is checking a ship's bonuses and chosing which out of the 2 remaining working setups for that ship to fit. I'm not a fan of this, by all means balance what is overpowered, but I prefer that balancing to be done in such a way that diverse and radical setups remain feasible. Right now (pre Trinity) a few interceptors flown by noobs can already pwn a BS flown by a highy skilled (RL and SP) player. The skilled player may have a well rounded and capable setup with a Heavy Neutrializer and light drones, but if the low skilled players in inties use decent tactics they can still kill him quite easily, if the inties make mistakes the BS might survive. After Trinity the inties will be able to run MWD and scram continually and scram the BS from outside neut range. It seems to me that the result of this is that it is more the case that the BS will no longer ever have even the slightest chance against a few inties irrespective of tactics or skill or fitting. I am not a fan of this either, I prefer it if the outcome of a fight depends more on who employed the best tactics or had the better skills or fitting, instead of on CCP deciding that ship X should never be able to beat ship Y under any circumstances. To those who feel it necessary to reply to every thread relating to balance and the direction Eve is going in with accusations that those engaged in the debate are 'whining' or trying to protect their 'iWin' buttons or solopwnmobiles. Please just grow up. The people going to the trouble of making considered posts obviously care enough about the game that this is not their intention as can easily be determined from what they have written. Attempts to misrepresent their views in this light is just disingenuous idiocy and is a waste of bandwidth. To save the platitude trotting masses that have have heard some things that they think they'll sound clever if they repeat the trouble of repeating themselves in response to this: a) If a battleship has no support it deserves to die no matter what. There is such a thing as a fight that starts off with lots of people and ends up with just a few. The battleship may have had support that got killed off. b) Any battleship can defend itself against interceptors with just a few light drones. Light drones do not even catch interceptors, if you don't even know that it's probably better if you don't post at all.
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.11.25 18:37:00 - [116] Originally by: Topaz Skydiver Edited by: Topaz Skydiver on 25/11/2007 07:49:27 Originally by: F'nog Any time numbers defeat skill points, it's a good thing, IMO. Imho it should be player experience, good teamplay and tactics defeat numbers. If 10 players know what they are doing and fighting against 20, who don't, the 10 should win, even if both sides have the same amounts of SP. PvP games should be more about playing well than about numbers or skillpoints. That's what I was getting at, but you worded it better. If you rely just on your SP number and ship size, you should lose. If you use your brain to take advantage of those SPs, then that's another story. Originally by: Karen Serasia Because some idiot decided to sell an internet connection to me and didn't think of the consequences.
Neutrino Sunset KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.11.25 18:38:00 - [117] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Originally by: TardRusher The game will continually be dumbed down to please the newer players. The thought seems to be that with every 10 old players that leave, another 15 new ones will take their place. Basically we're all f'ed. You're one of the guys dumbing it down. Please leave. The obvious facts (user numbers) demonstate that Eve as an MMORPG occupies a niche position in the market as a hardcore SF MMO at a time when tamer MMOs with more general appeal are making significant amounts of money. Naturally within CCP there will be elements of the organisation concerned primarily with the quality of the product and keeping it true to its founding principals, as well as other elements who are predominantly concerned with how much money the company makes. It would not seem to be an unreasonable hypothesis to suggest that there might be a degree of tension between these elements with respect to which direction Eve as a product should go in. My reading of Tard's post is that he recognises this and personally concludes that the money counters in CCP will drag Eve in whatever direction they think most immediately lucrative. While perhaps cynical this is not an unreasonable point of view, after all hasn't exactly this mechanic been the downfall of other MMOs in the past? Unfortunately I was unable to discern any value in your response whatsoever.
Seamus Rooke Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.11.25 21:05:00 - [118] Just one small point. Not every new character is a new player. Some of these characters are more experienced players knowing what they are doing, some - not all, but some. Run into those and it could make you wonder what just happened. Personally - while I haven't been playing since the start, don't think just because you have a lot of SP should ensure victory. It should help with secondary skills but it should be your combat experience that dictates the outcome of the battle. Let's wait until after the patch before we start panicking though, waste of energy until then.
Necro EvilZombie North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.11.25 21:50:00 - [119] you should change your font color to black --------------------------------------------------------------
Thorek Ironbrow Ironbrow Industries Co. Empire Research	Posted - 2007.11.25 22:00:00 - [120] I find it easier to read in yellow actually. However, I disagree with your point. The "10 mil SP chars" you're up against are porbably more specialised for one. Plus, I believe CCP was trying to get EvE to be more of a team game. Hence level 5 missions not ment to be possible without at least 2 or 3 BSs. _____________________________ Thorek Ironbrow of Ironbrow Industries Co. Part of the Empire Research Alliance Look us up in Nomaa, Itamo, or Sobaseki to jo

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