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Phoenicia Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.26 13:01:00 - [1] I've been flying a Mal a bit lately, and while I did, this question surfaced; Why is the Crow still immensely more popular than the Mal? Same slot-layout, same number of missile hardpoints allows for the same tactics, and the stat differences aren't big enough to show a clear advantage. Here's my Malediction setup: HI: 3x Standard Missile Launcher II 1x Small Armor Rep (offline) MED: 1x 1mn MWD II 1x J5b Scrambler (20km) 1x Cap Recharger I LOW: 1x Local Overdrive 1x Local Nanofiber 1x PDU II I suppose with a tad of tweaking (replacing the launchers with Arbalests means I can drop the PDU, also named cap charger would be nice ^^), it can be perfected, but so far I see no noticeable disadvantage against a Crow... I don't remember for sure but I think it's even a tad faster than my old Crow (this honey makes 5800m/s).
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.11.26 13:18:00 - [2] Originally by: Phoenicia I've been flying a Mal a bit lately, and while I did, this question surfaced; Why is the Crow still immensely more popular than the Mal? Same slot-layout, same number of missile hardpoints allows for the same tactics, and the stat differences aren't big enough to show a clear advantage. Here's my Malediction setup: HI: 3x Standard Missile Launcher II 1x Small Armor Rep (offline) MED: 1x 1mn MWD II 1x J5b Scrambler (20km) 1x Cap Recharger I LOW: 1x Local Overdrive 1x Local Nanofiber 1x PDU II I suppose with a tad of tweaking (replacing the launchers with Arbalests means I can drop the PDU, also named cap charger would be nice ^^), it can be perfected, but so far I see no noticeable disadvantage against a Crow... I don't remember for sure but I think it's even a tad faster than my old Crow (this honey makes 5800m/s). Well, because a Crow using kinetic missiles just does more damage with the bonus it has. The Malediction has a bonus to rocket damage which doesn't affect standard missiles, making missile Maledictions inferior to missile Crows.
Brea Lafail	Posted - 2007.11.26 13:20:00 - [3] I had heard it was because the Crow has it easier fitting std. launchers, but if you can cram in all on a Malediction, go for it. Never much tried it myself, tbh.
Phoenicia Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.26 13:37:00 - [4] Originally by: Cpt Branko Well, because a Crow using kinetic missiles just does more damage with the bonus it has. The Malediction has a bonus to rocket damage which doesn't affect standard missiles, making missile Maledictions inferior to missile Crows. I... Completely missed that... No missile bonus huh? D'OH!
Mannakin Caldari Mercurialis Inc. Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.26 13:42:00 - [5] Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to rocket damage and 5% bonus to armor resistances per level Interceptors Skill Bonus: 5% reduction in Signature Radius and 5% bonus to EM Missile damage per level Therefore, doesn't the Mal get a bonus to EM standard missles?
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.11.26 13:55:00 - [6] Originally by: Mannakin Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to rocket damage and 5% bonus to armor resistances per level Interceptors Skill Bonus: 5% reduction in Signature Radius and 5% bonus to EM Missile damage per level Therefore, doesn't the Mal get a bonus to EM standard missles? Well, it does, but it's getting removed post-patch (which is soon) in favour of the scram/distruptor range bonus and EM is kinda meh.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.26 14:11:00 - [7] Well teh Mal is a lil faster but does a lil les dps with Standart Missiles. The crow does a lil more dps with Standart Missiles but goes a lil slower. Pick whats more important to you.. Oh one other thing.. with max cap skills the crow is capstable if you only use your mwd. The malediction is not..
Zhecao Vai Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.26 14:40:00 - [8] Originally by: Phoenicia I've been flying a Mal a bit lately, and while I did, this question surfaced; Why is the Crow still immensely more popular than the Mal? Same slot-layout, same number of missile hardpoints allows for the same tactics, and the stat differences aren't big enough to show a clear advantage. Here's my Malediction setup: HI: 3x Standard Missile Launcher II 1x Small Armor Rep (offline) MED: 1x 1mn MWD II 1x J5b Scrambler (20km) 1x Cap Recharger I LOW: 1x Local Overdrive 1x Local Nanofiber 1x PDU II I suppose with a tad of tweaking (replacing the launchers with Arbalests means I can drop the PDU, also named cap charger would be nice ^^), it can be perfected, but so far I see no noticeable disadvantage against a Crow... I don't remember for sure but I think it's even a tad faster than my old Crow (this honey makes 5800m/s). This setup makes no sense. A Crow with Arbalests and speed mods goes about 6.3km/s and does more damage thanks to the bonus. If you're going to use a Malediction the only reason is because it's faster and warps faster (very good reasons, at that) - but throwing that away by fitting a PDS is laughable.
Phoenicia Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.26 14:52:00 - [9] Originally by: Zhecao Vai This setup makes no sense. A Crow with Arbalests and speed mods goes about 6.3km/s and does more damage thanks to the bonus. If you're going to use a Malediction the only reason is because it's faster and warps faster (very good reasons, at that) - but throwing that away by fitting a PDS is laughable. So basically you're saying that my tweaking suggestions would make the setup better? Thanks for the confirmation.... The PDU does make some sense though; Cap stability. It's borderline with the PDU, and would be gone without it. Although I guess a better cap recharger could alleviate that...
Mannakin Caldari Mercurialis Inc. Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.26 14:59:00 - [10] Has anyone any experience of the Mal with an AB/speed rigs and a full Halo set? I know its not very fast (over 2km/s somewhere) but with 4 Halo and Inty 4, the sig radius is 23m. With inty 5 and an extra few percent from the 5th Halo - its going to be blooming hard to hit. Or is this just not very good?

Zhecao Vai Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.26 15:54:00 - [11] Originally by: Phoenicia The PDU does make some sense though; Cap stability. It's borderline with the PDU, and would be gone without it. Although I guess a better cap recharger could alleviate that... The usual answer is a micro cap booster, which should fit with named launchers and AWU. Obviously it will be a moot point with Trinity though.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Military Industrial Research	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:09:00 - [12] Originally by: Mannakin Has anyone any experience of the Mal with an AB/speed rigs and a full Halo set? I know its not very fast (over 2km/s somewhere) but with 4 Halo and Inty 4, the sig radius is 23m. With inty 5 and an extra few percent from the 5th Halo - its going to be blooming hard to hit. Or is this just not very good? It would be very, very hard to hit for turrets, but missiles and drones would kill it.
Diomidis Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:25:00 - [13] Unless you are going to fly your Ceptor for solo-kills, it's a bit naive to compare raw DPS between Malediction and Crow... I really like my Maledictions, and are fairly easy to fit with SML. I've soloed some frigs in it - nothing bigger till now, and that's enough for me. I'm using 3x named SMLs, MWD II, Scram, Stasis & 3x OD IIs - and yes, it's faster than a crow. The biggest advantage of the Crow over the Malediction IMHO is its superior locking range - tho the Male has a tad better sig analysis.
Sean Faust	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:36:00 - [14] The main differences right now are in the differences between rockets vs. std missiles, and EM vs Kinetic dmg. EM = only good against Caldari shield tankers since Armor tankers have a naturally high EM resist and Minmatar tech 2 ships have high EM resist built into their shields. Kinetic = one of the 2 "universal" damage types (other being thermal) that both armor and shield tankers generally have low resistances to, but most people harden against. Rockets = close range, high DPS but low damage-per-hit, lower fitting requirements. Generally requires you to get into web range to deal damage unless you have uber missile/rocket skills and that can be a dangerous place for an Inty. Std Missiles = can be fired from out of web range, higher damage per hit but due to the slow RoF compared to rockets it amounts to lower DPS. Has higher fitting requirements. So, the crow was designed around the use of Std missiles that deal strictly kinetic damage and the mal was designed around the use of rockets that deal kinetic damage. Also, next patch the Crow is losing its missile velocity bonus and the mal is losing its EM missile damage bonus, both in favor of bonuses that improve their tackling effectiveness. Being a fan of close range weapons myself I would say the mal will be better post patch because it's damage bonus will apply to all 4 damage types, not just 1, it has superior DPS capabilities, is faster, and will be able to tackle better because unlike the crow its new Interceptor bonus will increase its range with web/scram as well as its cap efficiency. The mal, basically, will be better than the crow in EVERY way except for the fact that the crow can safely deal damage from outside of web range, and depending on your playstyle that can be a BIG deal.
Ethyn Caldari Wings of Redemption Black Flag Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:38:00 - [15] Just make sure you're fast and both will serve you well. Although I would go with a Crow over rockets any day. GO Fast or Die!
Semkhet KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.11.26 19:01:00 - [16] Originally by: Sean Faust The mal, basically, will be better than the crow in EVERY way except for the fact that the crow can safely deal damage from outside of web range, and depending on your playstyle that can be a BIG deal. Unless we are talking about setups exclusively for tackling (read MWD/speed mods/disruptor), there's only one interceptor which don't have to play his survival at the russian roulette: the Crow. Every interceptor which has to enter into web range to fight effectively is inferior to the crow. And since such ceptors have a high mathematical probability to die at each engagement (specially against BS's), it's still the Crow peeps will continue to pimp.
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.26 19:30:00 - [17] Crow ftwwwww!!! * * Nice hamster! - Mindstar Sorry, that hamster ate your sig.. - Random Guy123
Jagerin Gallente AB INITO KIN-DZA-DZA	Posted - 2007.11.26 20:03:00 - [18] After Trinity: Maled - cheap tackler with 28km dis (lvl 5 long-range targeting & lvl 4 inty needed) Crow - to tackle from 28km you need TS warpdis, if you don't want to loose it - you need polycarbs (tech2 maybe), gistii MWD, snakes, rare MSE (don't ask me how to fit it with standard launchers :) ) - that's 2+ bil, but with this fit crow is able to go through camp with t2 large mobile & huginns
Zhecao Vai Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.26 20:04:00 - [19] Originally by: Semkhet Unless we are talking about setups exclusively for tackling (read MWD/speed mods/disruptor), there's only one interceptor which don't have to play his survival at the russian roulette: the Crow. Yeah, or a Malediction, which happens to be the topic of this thread.
Monticore D'Muertos Caldari United Society Starfleet Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.11.26 20:05:00 - [20] Edited by: Monticore D''Muertos on 26/11/2007 20:06:51 don't think the crow is losing its missile velocity bonus the raptor is the tackling inty and its losing its kinetic missile dmg bonus, crow is just more versitile and with cap stabe mwd/scram with changes it makes a great tackler aswell. 1 vs 1 crow with precision lights is hard to beat. the problem with a rocket ceptor is the explosion velocity is so bad even worse with javelins you wont be hurting any ceptor unless you can get him and keep him webbed while the standard crow just needs a fly by web to do nice dmg.

Leon 026 Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.11.26 20:16:00 - [21] Edited by: Leon 026 on 26/11/2007 20:17:42 Originally by: Zhecao Vai Originally by: Phoenicia I've been flying a Mal a bit lately, and while I did, this question surfaced; Why is the Crow still immensely more popular than the Mal? Same slot-layout, same number of missile hardpoints allows for the same tactics, and the stat differences aren't big enough to show a clear advantage. Here's my Malediction setup: HI: 3x Standard Missile Launcher II 1x Small Armor Rep (offline) MED: 1x 1mn MWD II 1x J5b Scrambler (20km) 1x Cap Recharger I LOW: 1x Local Overdrive 1x Local Nanofiber 1x PDU II I suppose with a tad of tweaking (replacing the launchers with Arbalests means I can drop the PDU, also named cap charger would be nice ^^), it can be perfected, but so far I see no noticeable disadvantage against a Crow... I don't remember for sure but I think it's even a tad faster than my old Crow (this honey makes 5800m/s). This setup makes no sense. A Crow with Arbalests and speed mods goes about 6.3km/s and does more damage thanks to the bonus. If you're going to use a Malediction the only reason is because it's faster and warps faster (very good reasons, at that) - but throwing that away by fitting a PDS is laughable. ....and said Crow setup is unable to kill anything flying above 4km/s. On the other hand, said malediction setup is able to tackle (ie what its designed for) more efficiently and at longer ranges without having to invest large sums of isk. What needs tweaking is upgrading the T1 to T2, along with possible modifications to the "wildcard" 3rd medslot. Adding a web allows it to hold down fast moving targets and assist in gate-tackles. I weep for future generations of inty pilots that can't think more than "crow crow crow". ------- Leon 026 Once I was fallen, now I have wings
Aeaus The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2007.11.26 20:20:00 - [22] The one qualm I find about the malediction is that the targeting range leaves quite a bit to be desired, on the other hand that means you can get away without a domination warp disruptor. That said, I think the stiletto will be the new uber tackler of choice :)
Semkhet KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.11.27 09:14:00 - [23] Edited by: Semkhet on 27/11/2007 09:22:31 Originally by: Leon 026 ....and said Crow setup is unable to kill anything flying above 4km/s. On the other hand, said malediction setup is able to tackle (ie what its designed for) more efficiently and at longer ranges without having to invest large sums of isk. What needs tweaking is upgrading the T1 to T2, along with possible modifications to the "wildcard" 3rd medslot. Adding a web allows it to hold down fast moving targets and assist in gate-tackles. I weep for future generations of inty pilots that can't think more than "crow crow crow". The first ceptors I flew were Amarr, and I turned to Caldari from the moment I began flying too fast to inflict damage with guns. And I'm spending more time on SiSi than TQ lately. When considering T2 fits, the three contexts where the Malediction is superior to the crow is: 1) Pure tackler (implying no combat ability whatsoever) 2) Pursuit 3) Better cost for speed ratio The Malediction is inferior in: 1) CAP: Both ceptors CANNOT permarun T2 MWD + T2 disruptor even with HSM5 & PJ5, so you need a GY-2 -5% MWD cap hardwire. Without maxed skills and the GY-2, since the Malediction has short range weapons, it makes sense to fill a low with a power relay so you can fit a web in the last mid. The crow instead can use the last mid for a cap recharger, hence its 3 lows can still be used for speed or damage. 2) LOCK: Base stats are 22 Km for the Malediction, 30 Km for the Crow. Going at 27.5/37.5 with maxed skills and 30.25/41.25 in gang with skirmish warfare 5. Hence a Malediction cannot use the bonuses of a T2 or faction warp disruptor without being ganged with a leader enjoying maxed skirmish warfare skills. 3) COMBAT: The only damage bonus the new Malediction will enjoy is a generic 25% dp on rockets. The new Crow retains 50% velocity & 50% dp on kinetic. While rocket's explosion velocity is slightly better than light missiles, their range is absolutely pathetic. So if you were concerned about the Crow's supposed inability to damage ships flying over 4 km/sec (like if guns would perform any better ), it's even worse with the Malediction regardless of the opponent's speed. As soon a ceptor can be webbed, all its other qualities are a moot point since its destruction solely depends of the opponent's setup regardless of skills and tactics. 4) PIMPING: Unless you set up a Malediction only for tackling, there's no reason to pimp a ship which cannot dictate the engagement range. CONCLUSION: I don't give a damn about the look or the name of a ceptor. Neither about the costs involved. I just want the most for my isk, read a ceptor that can both tackle & fight, dictate range, stay out of web and faction hvy neuts, and permaswitch to RoadRunner mode if I so wish Now you can always come with a wealth of arguments why this ceptor is better than crow here, why this other one is better there, while conveniently forgetting that the crow can do everything, everywhere, at any speed, solo or not, just for the price of a Domi disruptor. And if you pimp it + plug snakes, it will last longer than any other kind of ceptor, even when used offensively.
Zhecao Vai Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.27 10:40:00 - [24] Edited by: Zhecao Vai on 27/11/2007 10:42:36 Originally by: Leon 026 ....and said Crow setup is unable to kill anything flying above 4km/s. On the other hand, said malediction setup is able to tackle (ie what its designed for) more efficiently and at longer ranges without having to invest large sums of isk. What needs tweaking is upgrading the T1 to T2, along with possible modifications to the "wildcard" 3rd medslot. Adding a web allows it to hold down fast moving targets and assist in gate-tackles. I weep for future generations of inty pilots that can't think more than "crow crow crow". So you use what, precisions, and now you're going 4km/s yourself, so good luck killing that interceptor which is flying at a normal interceptor speed. If you want to kill something over 4km/s fly a ship with a web. Hell, put a web on your Crow/Malediction - maybe not so bad after Trinity, since you'll still be reasonably cap stable. Don't fuck up your fitting just so you can weasel on an extra T2 launcher that in the era of faction ammo you will use once in a blue moon.
Diomidis Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.27 10:56:00 - [25] So what's this topic turning into? The winner of a 1vs1 between a crow and a malediction? For scouting and tackling both par almost equal - even post patch...the Amarr one is a tad faster, the crow is a bit ganger...so what? If you fly amarr and wanna kill a crow solo, perhaps a Crusader should be a better bet. Just remember: ceptors where never meant to be dealed as dmg dealers P.S. Can't you see that for this "secondary" role the Malediction can actually fit SMLs? Yeah, unbonuced yet still highly effective against a frig or not heavily tanked T1 cruiser...so stop thinking the malediction as "close range only"...
Semkhet KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.11.27 11:16:00 - [26] Originally by: Diomidis Just remember: ceptors where never meant to be dealed as dmg dealers CCP designed them as being able to use weapon systems, and included bonuses on said weapons... Does this ring a bell ? Originally by: Diomidis P.S. Can't you see that for this "secondary" role the Malediction can actually fit SMLs? Yeah, unbonuced yet still highly effective against a frig or not heavily tanked T1 cruiser...so stop thinking the malediction as "close range only"... P.S. Not only unbonused launchers. The whole picture is (solo, maxed skills): unbonused launchers on a ceptor with a pathetic locking range, what obliges the ship to FIGHT & SCRAM under 27500 meters, at the mercy of every overheated EAS web. The crow: dual bonused launchers, can fight from under 37500 meters and scram starting under 30 Km.
Zhecao Vai Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.27 11:42:00 - [27] Edited by: Zhecao Vai on 27/11/2007 11:43:48 Originally by: Semkhet P.S. Not only unbonused launchers. The whole picture is (solo, maxed skills): unbonused launchers on a ceptor with a pathetic locking range, what obliges the ship to FIGHT & SCRAM under 27500 meters, at the mercy of every overheated EAS web. The crow: dual bonused launchers, can fight from under 37500 meters and scram starting under 30 Km. Oh, so now we're putting 200M warp disruptors on our Crow but we can't even put a sensor booster on our Malediction? Anyway, if you're aching over 50 DPS vs 30 DPS on your interceptor, maybe you should just fly a Kestrel and do 80 instead.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.11.27 11:51:00 - [28] Originally by: Zhecao Vai Edited by: Zhecao Vai on 27/11/2007 11:43:48 Originally by: Semkhet P.S. Not only unbonused launchers. The whole picture is (solo, maxed skills): unbonused launchers on a ceptor with a pathetic locking range, what obliges the ship to FIGHT & SCRAM under 27500 meters, at the mercy of every overheated EAS web. The crow: dual bonused launchers, can fight from under 37500 meters and scram starting under 30 Km. Oh, so now we're putting 200M warp disruptors on our Crow but we can't even put a sensor booster on our Malediction? Anyway, if you're aching over 50 DPS vs 30 DPS on your interceptor, maybe you should just fly a Kestrel and do 80 instead. Well, the malediction will with a base T2 distruptor, be able to distrupt all the way to its locking range with the new bonuses for tackling interceptors (something the Crow does NOT get). At any rate, if I just wanted a tackler, I'd go for the Malediction (faster warp speed, will have better distruptor range post-patch, can go in webrange if required of it to risk it, cheaper to lose when you do something risky). If I wanted a short-range ceptor with rockets which can in dire need reach out to 15-16km with javs, I'd go for a Malediction. If I wanted to pimp a interceptor and shoot at things from 24km range and put in hyper-expensive implants to get to absurd speeds, I'd go for a crow, obviously.
Diomidis Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.27 12:00:00 - [29] Edited by: Diomidis on 27/11/2007 12:02:13 Originally by: Semkhet P.S. Not only unbonused launchers. The whole picture is (solo, maxed skills): unbonused launchers on a ceptor with a pathetic locking range, what obliges the ship to FIGHT & SCRAM under 27500 meters, at the mercy of every overheated EAS web. The crow: dual bonused launchers, can fight from under 37500 meters and scram starting under 30 Km. The whole picture IMHO is not "solo"...period. The picture is "survive long enough for your dmg dealing gang m8s do the pew-pew while you are tackling". If you can survive now while using 24km disruptors, chances are that post patch you will be doing better. The "dual bonuced" launchers on the crow are crap, as one bonus goes to range and is ruled out due to warp disruptor restrictions anyways. So if you like EFT paper fights, an "all-maxed-skills" Crow does 10dps more than a maxed Malediction (64 vs. 54), both using SML II and the appropriate faction ammo. Well...yes, kin dmg is better due to built in rez, so Crow wins...big deal... Is it still a ceptor DUEL thread? Never though so IMHO. Also - I am not thinking "fully pimped", snake sets, poly rigs etc on everything, nor max skilled senarios, as these are simply unrealistic for the >99% of ceptor pilots who actually fly and LOSE these fragile ships. I think "full T2" or cheap faction instead, that keeps thinks reasonable. So Malediction tends to be good enough for 99% of applicable scenarios. If you wonna make a fuss about that 1%, it fine for me...over and out.
Leon 026 Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.11.27 12:15:00 - [30] Originally by: Zhecao Vai So you use what, precisions, and now you're going 4km/s yourself, so good luck killing that interceptor which is flying at a normal interceptor speed. If you want to kill something over 4km/s fly a ship with a web. Hell, put a web on your Crow/Malediction, like you suggested - maybe not so bad after Trinity, since you'll still be reasonably cap stable. Don't fuck up your fitting just so you can weasel on an extra T2 launcher that in the era of faction ammo you will use once in a blue moon. Not sure what you're trying to tell me here. If its about the "upgrading the T1 to T2, along with possible modifications to the "wildcard" 3rd medslot. Adding a web allows it to hold down fast moving targets and assist in gate-tackles" then that was in reference to the OP. I certainly dont fit T1 on my crow that I've been flying for two years straight :S ------- Leon 026 Once I was fallen, now I have wings



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