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New Players Versus The Old Guard - Doing away with learning skills?

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Nito Musashi	Posted - 2007.11.27 02:28:00 - [61] true i not made a noob since the new bloodlines and all that but i have heard about that stuff, so i do not see the push to remove them entirely, the gap has already been closed a great deal. still eve is different from most other mmos, where you have to grind xp in hours you sit in front of your pc, old school at high levels this could take weeks or months, granted new school mmos have dumbed this down alot, but eve you can train while offline while your account is inactive unlike any other mmo. and arguably there is no "end game" in eve to rush for unlike other mmos where artifical end game content is supposed to keep you entertained or put you on the forums crying there is not enough "end game" stuff to do.
Shakuul Caldari O RLY corp YTMND.	Posted - 2007.11.27 02:37:00 - [62] Learnings skills act as a penalty to anyone who doesn't have multiple accounts and time to train up 1-2 months of learning skills before actually training skills to they can play the game. Its really a terrible tradeoff, you're faced with two options: 1) Train skills so you can enjoy more aspects of the game, but nerf your character's ability to continue to do so in the future 2) Give your character the ability to train skills quickly, but be unable to enjoy most of the game for the first month or so. This is a HUGE turnoff to newer players IMO, and should be phased out.
wonton freak	Posted - 2007.11.27 02:43:00 - [63] Originally by: Nick119 Yes and when we remove all learning skills lets make sure ALL new players have a battleship. Ya ya whats the next whine about. ITS YOUR CHOICE to choose what skills to train as a noob. and me i started with 20k sp ya thats right 20K!!! and new players now start with 800k to Ease the gap between newer and older players. Now your whining about skills you CHOOSE to train. Go back to the Grind that is WOW. EvE skill system makes it unique among other mmo's so leave it I totally agree with you. I've posted about this subject before, and i never can resist. My usual points are: #1-IF YOU WANT TO PLAY A DAMNED Arcade game, buy ONE! #2-CCP, dont **** the users off, or you'll end up like star wars galaxies did. Never change a game too much and make your old users mad! #3-I've totally maxed out learning on over 6 accounts! no one knows how painful this is than i do, and i still support the Learning skills. In fact i think they should add more! So i think i've earned a bonus with all that time invested. #4-If you choose to do learning you should get something, you don't have to do it, and not all Vets have maxed learning. #5 If they ever removed learning i'd probably close all of my accounts, and i'm currently doing 6 active accounts, and have been since 2005. I Wish people would stop bringing this up. Go buy an XBOX you losers!
Cipher7 VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.27 05:10:00 - [64] Yeah but the whole "waste time" argument can be used in every facet of Eve's training system. "Why should I waste a month training BS5" "Why should I waste 2 months training for Hulk" "Why should I waste 6 months training for a Dread" "Why should I waste 3 months training for t2 1400's" If you use Evemon, set a training que, then click the "suggestion" button, Evemon will drop in just enough learning skills to DECREASE your overall training time for that que. If you're obsessy compulsy just train 4/3 and consider yourself "finished" because that's really the sweet-spot, thats where you get maximum gain for minimal time, anything beyond that you are wasting days of training to get +1 attribute and its not worth it.
Ramirez Dora The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.27 05:39:00 - [65] It takes years to recover the time for the advanced learning skills at V. 20d 20h 16m to finish Presence V then I'm done. I plan on playing eve for years to come, if the game is around. And vacations are a blessing, go to the beach for 2 weeks, put on that lvl 4/whatever skill to train to V and off you go, come back and 'instant' gratification. When you go over the ~22 limit with the attributes, each additional point really cuts off hours. Hours I'll be making back the moment I start that lvl 6 skill to V.
kanojo1969 Friendship 7 Corporation STYX.	Posted - 2007.11.27 05:49:00 - [66] iirc the devs have stated in the past that: - learning skills were a big mistake as they bore new players into quitting - it's too late to do anything about it doesn't anyone else remember having heard that?
Admiral Nova Strike Team Nova	Posted - 2007.11.27 05:50:00 - [67] To be quite honest, new players have no idea how good they have it. Older players had to do some of their training without advanced learning skills, where +2 implants cost almost 50m and +4s and +5's were dreams only. Advanced learning skills required the basic learning skill to lvl 5 and you started with 90k SP instead of 800+k SP. A new player already starts with more SP ahead of what an older player does than is required for a good learning skill set.
Anikadir The Older Gamers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.27 06:04:00 - [68] Seem to recall that Sony tried this with SWG - and look what a train wreck that turned out to be. "When everyone is super.....no one will be"
Argaven Steelbane	Posted - 2007.11.27 06:46:00 - [69] I agree. I'm a new player and I've put off training these learning skills because I want to PROGRESS in this game, I don't want to spend 2 months just sitting around training these skills, adding nothing of real value to my character while only being able to fly a frigate around and do Level 1 missions. It would be amazing not to have the burden of those hovering over you, I've spent most of my time training up other stuff that actually enhances my game experience, engineering, etc, stuff that I need to have to be able to even do anything in the game.
Mr Li The Graduates	Posted - 2007.11.27 08:20:00 - [70] they way I see there are 2 real problems with learning skills: One is that the bonus for training learning is too high, while the other is the community attitude towards learning is flawed. Both of these relate to each other and neither can really be taken on its own. Ever been in a noob corp chat on an Alt after having played for a year? I've seen many new players elicit solutions to their skill training quandary in corp chat to receive the following advice: "get learning skills done first, you'll thank me later". Can you honestly say this is good advice? And can you honestly fault this advice? My answer to both of my questions is 'no'. Why? Because the bonus to learning time is too great to ignore, but at the same time, the new player experience should be more than waiting around while your character gets smarter. my idea of a solution is more of a grassroots change in the attitude towards learning skills, i.e. reinforce the notion that learning skills is a time sink, that it is a choice and that it is not completely necessary to train to a maximum level. tl;dr folks: Learning skills don't necessarily need a change, it's the attitude towards them
Chrysalis D'lilth	Posted - 2007.11.27 09:22:00 - [71] As someone with 2 chars both with lvl 5 basic & lvl 4-5 advanced learning i'd do the following -: I'd give all new chars level 4 in the basic learning skills. This removes maybe 5 days of training from a starting char which does several things. It doesn't remove the grinds to the lvl 5 skills and a new char will still need to earn the isk to learn the advanced learning skills. It means a new char can get into the game a little quicker - and thats not really a bad thing if your trying to attract new players to a game. It may not seem like alot, but to a new player who doesn't have to spend the best part of a week training skills that are perceived as a 'mandatory' & 'boring' it gives them chance to learn a few other skills instead which may perk their interest to entice them to subscribe.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.27 11:02:00 - [72] Edited by: Avon on 27/11/2007 11:02:42 If you want to remove learning skills, fine. But giving everyone +10 to their base attributes to compensate? Say what? If the skills are a useless, pointless, timesink, why compensate? Nope, remove the learning skills, and just let people train with their base attribiutes. Oh, what's that? Training would take too long? Well, how about we just give all the players all the skills too then. Afterall, why should we even have to learn how to fly small ships / use small turrets / etc, before we can use bigger ones? It is just a pointless timesink. Thinking about it, grinding for ISK is a bit of a timesink too, and not all that much fun, so lets get rid of ISK too. Seriously, for the SP invested in learning skills you can actually have a pretty good new character. Training up all the learning skills off the bat is mathematically astute, but maths never was much fun. Train fun stuff while you play, and learning while you sleep. Sure you may lose a few SP from your theoretical maximum total / character age, but ultimately who cares? You'll be having fun .. and that is the point of a game, right? * Added: I trained up an alt recently, and focused on ISK making skills first. I ended up with more SP's than training learning first, simply because it doesn't take long with the right skills to earn enough to buy some pretty nifty implants. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Shaemell Buttleson Darwin With Attitude oooh Shiny	Posted - 2007.11.27 11:39:00 - [73] Originally by: Jupiter Sun I read that the devs wish they could remove the learning skills, only doing so would create a subscription nuking nerdrage ***storm. I am kinda new, and it's kinda clear learning skills are not meant to be trained up all at once at the start, but over time increasing sp learn over a long period as you specialise in whatever. I feel it would be a huge mistake for me to train up all my learning skills right now, as frankly isk/experience/FUN > a slight skillpoint advantage in the long run. I read some thread in the skills forum discussing it and it was kinda clear it was a slagging match between OCD min/maxing achuras and normal players. I have seen this banded around on the forums so many times but I cannot find where it is the Devs have said they regretted seeding the learning skills especially the advanced ones. I have searched for it and read every blog since I started playing so if someone could give me a link I'd be gratefull. [orange]snip* Do not use your signature to troll or insult other EVE players snip - I somehow doubt Rauth put that :) Cortes yeah he did I promise... Shae* -Rauth Kivaro (mods@ccpg
Caldrion Dosto Mean Anglo-Danes	Posted - 2007.11.27 12:09:00 - [74] I agree with Op. take learning skills away. And yes i have trained them.
Cursus	Posted - 2007.11.27 12:21:00 - [75] I'm a rather new player too, and have to say that the learning skills were quite a bit of a bother. After realizing their importance I practically made a new character and trained learning skills to +4+3 on him while I kept hauling stuff for money on this char to get the advanced learning books. Took me a few weeks, but at least I had other games to play awhile too. I mainly play on the newer character now. Feels like the game didn't really even start before the learning skills were done.
Maximillian Dragonard	Posted - 2007.11.27 12:41:00 - [76] The way I look at it is that NO ONE is forced to train learning skills. If you choose to make the time investment in order to better yourself, that SHOULD provide a benefit. Anyone that doesn't want to train learning skills.. great for them, they won't be as efficient, but it was their choice. There is no valid argument for the removal of the skills. The biggest problem is people telling new players that they "must" train learning first. They need to be encouraged to train some basic skills first so they can have some fun. You don't need level V skills to start enjoying the game folks. Train those learning skills while offline early on, train "fun stuff" while ingame, and don't be such a meta-gamer ____________________ EWAR... love it or hate it.... learn to deal with it!
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.27 12:47:00 - [77] i think gaining skillpoints at an accelerated rate lets say up to 20-30mil sp would be in order for the new guys not being completely left behind.
Tyr Zewa Caldari MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2007.11.27 12:49:00 - [78] It's kinda fun to see how jealous some people are of new players. "Oh noes back in the day we had to walk 20km up a hill in the snow!". Like go cry me a river, build a bridge and get ******* over it. It's not all about you "vets". It's about making this game a bit easier to learn, and a bit faster to start up for new players. 800k sp might be alot compared to the 50k we started out, but it really is not alot. (Just look at what a god mode char has as SP compared to now.) And yes the oh so famous 5/4 combo for learning skills is what everyone has, because everyone knows it pays of after 1 - 1.5 years. But when you're new you want to enjoy this game, you want to get into that tier3 frig or a cruiser and get some support skills up so it's actually worth to fly those ships. Now let's be objective and ignore your egos and epeens, what would happen if all learning skills were removed? Instead people would get 10 to each attribute and a 1.1 modifier over their total attributes. SP invested into learning (the points not the time) could be put into similar skills. And you get your 20mil isk for those skills back (like yeah, a lvl4 mission worth of isk and a player with 20+ mil sp cries, talk about perspective). What did you just do now? You allow new players to make more mistakes when it comes to training, you allow them to see more aspects of the game in a quicker time. And yes, that's one of eve's strenghts the many options people have. In other words, you allow new players to have more fun in this game! If half of you were as hardcore as you pretend to be, you'd be pvp'ing without clones for the "kick".
Ryoji Tanakama Caldari Daikoku Fleet Shipyards	Posted - 2007.11.27 12:50:00 - [79] Originally by: James Swindle I agree with you, in that they should just get rid of learning skills and just give +10 on all the attributes. Learning skills are just a waste of time, and just slow down people getting into the real meat of the game! Um... actually they speed it up significantly, but you need to be playing a year to see the payoff. ~Ryoji Tanakama Daikoku Fleet Shipyards
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.11.27 12:52:00 - [80] all this talk of 2 months compulsory training is ******* nonsense. you gain next to no time when you first start out by having them all trained, and they don't really pay off till you're doing level 5 skills anyway. learning skills should be sandwiched between training all the basic skills you need to fly a t1 frigate or cruiser, and learning the more advanced skills that let you specialise. if metagaming is your bag you'll get a much better start by choosing a properly rolled khanid cyberknight, mimmatar brutor slavechild, or achura scientist than you will spending '2 months doing learning skills'. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Ryoji Tanakama Caldari Daikoku Fleet Shipyards	Posted - 2007.11.27 12:53:00 - [81] Originally by: Shakuul Learnings skills act as a penalty to anyone who doesn't have multiple accounts and time to train up 1-2 months of learning skills before actually training skills to they can play the game. Its really a terrible tradeoff, you're faced with two options: 1) Train skills so you can enjoy more aspects of the game, but nerf your character's ability to continue to do so in the future 2) Give your character the ability to train skills quickly, but be unable to enjoy most of the game for the first month or so. This is a HUGE turnoff to newer players IMO, and should be phased out. Um... or you could train up your learning skills in between usefull skills? You are not forced to get Focus 4 before you're allowed to train for a BS. It takes a few hours to get a first tier learning skill up to 4... which provides a major improvement. Many of us trained 20 million skill points on first tier level 4 learning skills. The train some useful stuff, then move on to advanced learning skills later when you have the time. ~Ryoji Tanakama Daikoku Fleet Shipyards
Ryoji Tanakama Caldari Daikoku Fleet Shipyards	Posted - 2007.11.27 12:55:00 - [82] Originally by: Argaven Steelbane I agree. I'm a new player and I've put off training these learning skills because I want to PROGRESS in this game, I don't want to spend 2 months just sitting around training these skills, adding nothing of real value to my character while only being able to fly a frigate around and do Level 1 missions. It would be amazing not to have the burden of those hovering over you, I've spent most of my time training up other stuff that actually enhances my game experience, engineering, etc, stuff that I need to have to be able to even do anything in the game. Then dont spend 2 months. Spend 2 days and then train something more immediately useful to your playstyle. The training skillbooks will not run away and hide while you're not looking. You dont need to be level 70 by the end of the week to go raiding. ~Ryoji Tanakama Daikoku Fleet Shipyards
Torco	Posted - 2007.11.27 13:41:00 - [83] /signed Learningskills are just not fun and force new players to quit eventually. Simple as that.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.27 13:47:00 - [84] Originally by: Torco /signed Learningskills are just not fun and force new players to quit eventually. Simple as that. Considering that at some point every player was a new player, then either your arguement is flawed, or there is no-one here. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.11.27 13:55:00 - [85] sigh Now I understand why devs usually don't reply in the forums. The idiocy has hit critical mass in this thread, it's really beyond redemption. [sarcasm] Yeah, let's do away with learning skills. Give those SP as "free SP" distributable anywhere instantly. Let's do away with implants too. Wipe off all attribute bonuses from all implants, replace with something "useful". Give EVERY player a +17 to each attribute instead, you know. Hmm, but why stop there ? I mean, training for T2 modules is pretty annoying too. Hey, I know, REMOVE all prerequisites from each and every ship, module and rig ! Yeah, let ANYBODY fly ANYTHING and fit EVERYTHING, just get a lot less bonus if they don't have the appropriate skill ! Hmm, getting ISK and standings is boring too ! Make everything ALMOST FREE ! NPCs will sell everything at 0.01 ISK a piece ! And give everybody +10% to all standings per day at DT ! Oh, and remove SP decay when you die. Better still, make pods INVULNERABLE. Insurance ? Hmm, instead of getting ISK (which is now, you know, worthless), give the player an identically fit ship as insurance payout ! [/sarcasm] If you don't see where this is going... ...you're beyond help. . C\|S\|I\|N\|x.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.27 14:16:00 - [86] Originally by: Torco /signed Learningskills are just not fun and force new players to quit eventually. Simple as that. yes. All the accounts of players who seemingly didn't quit because of learning skills are an illusion. It is simply untrue that there are over 200,000 active accounts owned by people who weren't deterred by learning skills. It is demonstrably and logically impossible that anyone could ever have tolerated starting with less than +10 in all stats and 1M SP. No such people exist, and if they did they must all be OCD sufferers. New players should be given everything they want on a plate immediately, as anything less will mean that no new players will ever come to EvE, and what this game sorely needs is an influx of ADD-addled whiners who DEMAND instant gratification. Anyone who says otherwise is just jealous! Next up: Why new players should start with 10Bn ISK. After all, some players have much more than this, and it would take over 5 years to accumulate this much ISK by mining Veldspar in 1.0 systems. Not giving all new players 10Bn will mean that no new players will ever subscribe and EvE will die within 72 hours. True story. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Nito Musashi	Posted - 2007.11.27 14:43:00 - [87] well while we are on about "not fun" things..... i want to fly a command ship have no interest in hacs or assault frigs, who oh why do i have to train the lower tier stuff to fly my command ship?! its just not fun! or i want to spec large hybrids and i have to go back and spec small, med also this isnt fun! never mind if i want to pvp and mission run so i have to spec 2 branches of weapons really to be effective at both. not fun! or t2 bs oh my the pre reqs for those make your nose bleed. not fun! end sarcasm bottom line there are things anyone can gripe about as being not fun in any game. grinds for xp, grinds for gold, training things you need for better ships and bigger things with long periods of no reward to show for it. i played asheron's call for 5 years, i had a life and i had work so i could not play 50 60 hours a week or more like some people, and you could only level as much as you could play. so took me 3 years to reach the level cap of 126. by about the time i hit level 60 and got item magic making my leveling easier with portal spells and recalls, people figured out how to macro and chain xp so that all my work went out the window overnite and people were hitting 126 in one or two months. before in ac a level 50 60 character meant something, meant you put your time in and earned your level them macros ruined it, and i still refused to macro. now days seems people just want things handed to them, i blame wow and gw for the easy fast leveling that those games made popular the early mmos were about long long leveling times and earning your bones in the community not rusing to end game in few weeks then griding the same dungeons endlessly.
Saashia Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.27 14:51:00 - [88] Yeah, and while you're at it... Start everyone with all the skills needed to fly battleships from day one. If fact, let's just do away with skill training all together and have everyone start with every skill @ lvl 5 and 100 trillion isk. shakes head -fail
RaTTuS BIG Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.11.27 15:07:00 - [89] All new characters started after the end of this year will get Tech2 Bpo's - one per account - just so that they can compete with everyone else. also they'll get pimped skills - all over and start with 10-30mil depending on what startup options they choose - however they will not be able to train any learning skills. -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve [Now Verified] & Recruiting
Baron Erique Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.11.27 15:48:00 - [90] Newbie here, just 20 days old (FINALLY, a Mac client!)...I don't know what all the complaining is about regarding the learning skills. I've been training them and I'm still having a lot of fun. I don't think the problem lies with the learning skills; it lies with the ones who expect instant gratification from everything they do in life, who are unable to comprehend costs vs. benefits, and who are incapable of thinking of outcomes more than a few days into the future. Frankly, if the learning skills cause this type of person to quit, great! It would be nice to finally have a place (even a virtual one) to go where nobody has entitlement issues. I came to this game because I heard about how challenging it can be and how a large segment of the players are actually mature. I really hope CCP doesn't keep caving to the instant gratification/easy button crowd. THAT move would be what causes THIS new player to quit. So, I would say DON'T listen to the whiners who have absolutely no patience and KEEP the learning skills. And a year from now, DON'T listen to the same whiners who want the skill training formula changed because they didn't train the learning skills and are now training at half the rate as the players who did.

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