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New Players Versus The Old Guard - Doing away with learning skills?

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000Hunter000 Gallente Magners Marauders	Posted - 2007.11.26 21:49:00 - [31] GO... BACK... TO... WOW!!!! There i said it! So whats next? doing away with empire wars? Turn hi sec into total sec? No wait, i got an idea!!! Lets instance missions and have a seperate pvp server... Yes i was beeing sarcastic CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!! Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
Grok Newbie Minmatar	Posted - 2007.11.26 21:50:00 - [32] I am quite new to EvE, playing it for about two weeks. As for my first char, I did not know about learning skills. When I realized, I started out anew and am now learning learning. While probably the right thing to do, by now this has me so ****ed off I am so close to leave this whole game: I was talking to somebody who had just finished "his learning", and learned (omg) that it takes about 3,5 months! So I will either have to pay more than 3 months for nothing, or I leave the game. I still have a while to think about it, as my sub is running. But yes, learning skills are actually just junk. So, /signed
000Hunter000 Gallente Magners Marauders	Posted - 2007.11.26 21:55:00 - [33] I was tempted to make more sarcastic comments, but i just realized that this thread has gone beyond that so it's better i say nothing more at all. CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!! Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
Grok Newbie Minmatar	Posted - 2007.11.26 21:57:00 - [34] Originally by: 000Hunter000 Obvious statement, i learned them so i think u should to, new people allready have it way too easy atm, 800k points from day 1, u now only have to learn the basic learning skills to L4 to start on the advanced ones and making isk in general is way way more easy then it used to be. Took me several weeks to save up for a cruiser and months before i rolled out my first BS. Call me a grumpy old vet but why should only the new people get a free handout? As for this point, I would greatly prefer learning actual things from the beginning on, than having to drill holes into my nose until I can do something new. I would even go as far as to say learning is so far the worst aspect I have encountered in EvE.
Cipher7 VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.26 22:01:00 - [35] 4/3 in about 2 weeks, that's +7 to all attributes. Add in some +3 impants and you're golden. Don't be daft and spend 2 months training learnings.
Ed Anger Weekly World News	Posted - 2007.11.26 22:14:00 - [36] Edited by: Ed Anger on 26/11/2007 22:15:10 Originally by: Grok Newbie I am quite new to EvE, playing it for about two weeks. As for my first char, I did not know about learning skills. When I realized, I started out anew and am now learning learning. While probably the right thing to do, by now this has me so ****ed off I am so close to leave this whole game: I was talking to somebody who had just finished "his learning", and learned (omg) that it takes about 3,5 months! So I will either have to pay more than 3 months for nothing, or I leave the game. I still have a while to think about it, as my sub is running. But yes, learning skills are actually just junk. So, /signed just train the basic to 4, advanced to 3. and at that, only train up the ones you are using (ie leave charisma out of it until you train some leadership skills etc). this wont take 3 months. and train interesting skills inbetween, its much less boring that way.
Thenoran Caldari Frontier Economics Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.11.26 22:23:00 - [37] Attributes should have more effect on things then they do now. Having a lot of Intelligence would speed up Material & Time Research for instance, and more Charisma would yield better standings and rewards for missions that you have completed. Otherwise the attributes should be buffed a bit.
Paeniteo	Posted - 2007.11.26 22:24:00 - [38] I actually agree with this post. I don't mind losing all that training time if learning trees were just removed and we were given the stats instead. Learning skills kill the game for the first six (?) weeks, yet all newbies are pressured into training them. It takes long enough as it is to get into a decent ship (and actually fit it decently on top of that) without making every character in the game waste a month and a half on skills that take a year to pay off. And THEN you get to start from zero. The other option is you learn some basic skills first or intermix them with learning... but that just slows the game down to a crawl. The first weeks of the game are absolutely the most boring in my opinion, which is strange because the first weeks are kind of crucial for hooking in new players. /signed.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.11.26 22:48:00 - [39] YOU DON'T HAVE to do "all learnings first". How many times does one have to repeat that ? If you DON'T want to do learnings, if you find it boring to do... just DON'T, ffs ! C\|S\|I\|N\|x.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.26 22:51:00 - [40] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 26/11/2007 22:50:56 Kind of the sad but learning skills could be a reason for the average players to play eVe for 7 months. If they are that bad, why not remove them? :s --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.26 22:57:00 - [41] Originally by: James Swindle I agree with you, in that they should just get rid of learning skills and just give +10 on all the attributes. Learning skills are just a waste of time, and just slow down people getting into the real meat of the game! Learning skills are like everything else in EvE. You make a choice. You can go for early investment for long term gain, or short-term advantage instead. If you're only going to play for 5 or 6 months, then 4+3 learnings are easily enough and only take a week or two. And BTW, the people who trained up their learnings the hard way "spent" more than the SP in their learning skills, because they were learning at a slower rate until the learning skills were completed. New players already start with 20x the SP I began with. Now you want them to start with 120x? Jeez, I'm only just over a year old and I don't feel "oppressed" by the old gaurd. If new players want to learn skills faster they can start a second account - nothing like 6300 SP/hr rolling in. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Ryuga VonRhaiden Caldari Insurgent New Eden Tribe Deus Ex.	Posted - 2007.11.26 23:02:00 - [42] Originally by: James Swindle I agree with you, in that they should just get rid of learning skills and just give +10 on all the attributes. Learning skills are just a waste of time, and just slow down people getting into the real meat of the game! hey, skills are bonuses, if you don't like them don't train them and go straight for whatever you want... or, remove titan skills and prerequisites and just give out 4-5 titans as the newbie tutorial reward... :\| Do not try and find the signature... that's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth... There is no signature.
ZerKar Caldari Zen'Tar	Posted - 2007.11.26 23:46:00 - [43] Originally by: SirMoric Learningskills actually gives you time to learn the game. While you spend time learning about the secret of learning, you also spend time learning the game from the smallest crafts and onwards. rgds They will not be learning much in their Frig with nothing specail attached to it while they spend 2 to 3 months (Depends on beginning stats) learning Learning. The best they could hope to do is interogate older characters and hope they will answer their questions and while I did that with success many would not even know what to ask. For those who have trained them, of course, a refund of their SP would definately be in order and should go where they want it. Honestly considering that they essentailly lost some SP during the time they trained them maybe even a slight boost beyound a simple Refund would be in order but only a slight one. Also 23 Mil Isk. Though this is why it will never happen, besides those extra couple months being potentail money for CCP. For those who are complaining that this would give an unfair edge to the new players, honestly, they will still take awhile before they can even make the 100+ Mil to get your +5 Implants, they will take a fair while to get any of the ships they want, and they will still likely be lost as to how to actually battle at first. On the good side though, when you kill them they may just have more shiney loot for you to have. Giving out the SP right off the bat would not hurt anyone trying to specailize, you cannot boost your skills with Learning anymore then they would be giving you anyway. If your Attributes still did not measure up then Implants or a Reroll are in order. Originally by: Akita T YOU DON'T HAVE to do "all learnings first". How many times does one have to repeat that ? If you DON'T want to do learnings, if you find it boring to do... just DON'T, ffs !" This is also rather funny. Yes, well you do not HAVE to fight with a Combat Ship or mine with a Barge either. It would work a whole lot better, be logical, and very likely be much more whorthwhile because you would succeed, but you do not HAVE to do it. That particular arguement is just poorly thought out. Lastly, this does have a bad effect on the new players. I would say when you start learning skills that allow you to fit more and do more it is the most exciting time in the Game. When you start grinding those skills to eque the last few drops of goodness out of your Rank 5's the game gets real dull real fast. So of course you want to make that time go by as fast as possible but grinding the Learning Skills which really do not get you anything new to experience at all always feels like such a waste of time. The whole learning process can by far be the most annoying aspect in EvE to begin with, but slowing it down with skills that have no notable effect in game while you learn them and grant you nothing new to to do at the time is by far the worst portion of it. All in all, I would suggest that getting rid of these skills would be a good way to go when all things are considered, but like I mentioned before the chances of seeing that happen are as likely as CCP dropping a super OMGWTFPWNMOBILE with no skill requirments into your Ship Bay tomarrow lol. +++++++++++++++ I saw the Sign...! O.o
Jikx Everproud Caldari Cold-Fury Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.26 23:52:00 - [44] Probably some time next year, instead of giving newbies more skills, just give them level 4 in the basic learning skills, and level 3 in the advanced. Although what the OP has suggested kinda stinks :p --- My Youtube Eve Videos
miro hirisko	Posted - 2007.11.26 23:59:00 - [45] so give noobs +10 atributes and get rid of learning, i think that would **** me off a lot as i trained them that hard way, why should noobs be able to fly ships it took me weeks and months to train after there first week. there were no advanced learning skills in game when i started, it was 5k sp too. how much more do you want the noobs buffed. any more and they wont be able to afford the clones .
Exuscon Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.27 00:16:00 - [46] I am a player sence '04 and I beleive learning skills should be done away with. Could use some more compitition and some new faces in 0.0 "Save the tree! Wipe your arse with an owl instead."
VicturusTeSaluto	Posted - 2007.11.27 00:39:00 - [47] I agree, learning skills are a waste of time, and another huge complication for new players in an already complicated game. Players should start out with all learnings at 4 w/ the choice of training them to 5. People who already trained learnings can buck up and not cry and moan about it. Learning skills were a mistake, and CCP knows it. Do you think that someone getting into a game a complex as eve wants to go through learning skills instead of training for new ships and modules?
Nick119 Minmatar Global Dynamic Industries	Posted - 2007.11.27 00:53:00 - [48] Yes and when we remove all learning skills lets make sure ALL new players have a battleship. Ya ya whats the next whine about. ITS YOUR CHOICE to choose what skills to train as a noob. and me i started with 20k sp ya thats right 20K!!! and new players now start with 800k to Ease the gap between newer and older players. Now your whining about skills you CHOOSE to train. Go back to the Grind that is WOW. EvE skill system makes it unique among other mmo's so leave it ___________________________________________________ DIE WHINERS DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Commander Prishe Caldari The LoneStar Corp Edge Of Sanity	Posted - 2007.11.27 01:00:00 - [49] Edited by: Commander Prishe on 27/11/2007 01:03:08 I dont care if they get rid of learning skills or not, as long as they reimburse me with the full amount of SP I would have lost training them so that I can allocate it to other skills. Personaly I would like to see an "advanced learning" rank 3 that gives 3% to all atributes that would give a total of 25% to atributes with both at level 5
Danae Melios Azteca Transportation Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.27 01:02:00 - [50] The skill grind tests patience. If you are not into deferred gratification, Eve is not for you. This can be bypassed however, by alternating training "fun" skills with learning skills. or Train all the basic learning skills to 3, then train cruiser skills up. Once you can use a cruiser decently, then train the learning skills to 4 and train for basic battleships or for BCs. Then use those to get the millions of ISK for the advanced learning skills. By then, they will start making bigger impacts on training times, which will be longer anyway. And very very few skill paths will benefit from an Advanced Learning skill raised to 5. Even maxing out Command Ships, Motherships and Titans on EveMON didn't trigger more than Advanced Learning skills to 4. Originally by: game box Conceive a new life without boundaries, where murder, plunder, betrayal, and delusions of grandeur will lead you to boundless glory or to the brink of ruin.
Chronnick Bladerunner	Posted - 2007.11.27 01:32:00 - [51] I agree TOAST the learning skills! Let me redistribute the pts in them to other skills. BUT just the amount of points people currently have. Doing ALL learning skills up to lvl V takes 3-4 months!!!! WASTE OF PRODUCTIVE TRAINING TIME. Ya right ..train a skill so you can train faster.. OK If you want to keep learning skills give me another 2 tiers of them so I can have 50 or so average attribute... OR make them effect how your ship attributes or how efficiently your modules function!! Sure you can say it gives people time to learn the game... but them again so does the training of Cruisers to V or how about BC's let alone the 40-80 day train for BS depending on your stats and implants or lack thereof...there are plenty of skills that take plenty of time for anyone to "get to know the game"
Maestro Ulv Phaze-9	Posted - 2007.11.27 01:45:00 - [52] Originally by: Steppa Obviously, they don't do anything but enable quicker training. Erm, and your point? Didn't realise quicker training was a bad thing tbh, hmm but now you mention it yeah... All that time I have saved from doing the occasional learning skill mixed in with my frigate and gunnery training back in the when! And its of no use to me at all now Ahwell, I'll just finish advanced spaceship command lvl5 at my stupidly faster rate than someone with no learning skills and manage to console myself somehow.
Stitcher Caldari legion of qui Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.11.27 01:48:00 - [53] Originally by: Steppa The muse just struck me as I'm balancing my checkbook here and was pondering the pros and cons of starting up a new industrial character. Even as a four-year veteran of this game, I'm loath to do that because once I start him up, I've basically got to wait x number of days until his learns are up to a point where skills are quicker to train. This is one of the biggest dead horses that's been beaten on these forums, but I wonder if anyone has ever suggested doing away with the learning skills completely? Obviously, they don't do anything but enable quicker training. Unlike other MMO's, none of your attributes are taken into account when doing anything that's done in the gameworld. So, to level the playing field between absolutely new players and the old guard...remove them from the game. 1) Let everyone determine their starting attributes at character creation. Adjust so that it's possible to start out with what amounts to level IV basic learns and increase/decrease attributes into the advanced learn ranges through school choices or heritage choices. 2) Use implants to increase from there or include attribute-increasing storyline missions to further increase a character's attributes. 3) Allow current players to roll back skill points invested in learning skills to redistribute as they please on EXISTING SKILLS...or do it unrestricted at a 2:1 ratio. Or just allow us to do it in an unrestricted manner. Again, just pondering. I actually started a new character recently, and you'd be surprised how ridiculously quick and easy it is to get them up to the point of being useful. Hell, a starting character is perfectly capable of founding and running a decent-sized corp straight off the bat, and if you know what you're doing there are a number of routes out there to creating characters who are literally within days of being able to fly tech 2 ships, mining barges or similar "Old Guard" vessels. So I don't think this is necessary. I'm used to having to wait the better part of a month for a skill to go ding nowadays, so when I created my alt and started running his skill training, I was almost overwhelmed by the frequency with which he gained skill levels. It's not an actively bad idea, but honestly newbie characters already have a massive leg up relative to what the Old Guard had when we started out anyway. Let's please leave it as is, or else I'm going to start feeling cheated. - The game is not the problem. The problem is that you are not adapting to the game.
Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2007.11.27 01:49:00 - [54] Originally by: 000Hunter000 GO... BACK... TO... WOW!!!! There i said it! So whats next? doing away with empire wars? Turn hi sec into total sec? No wait, i got an idea!!! Lets instance missions and have a seperate pvp server... Yes i was beeing sarcastic actually learning skills are one of the things that makes EvE similar to WoW. In WoW you need to get your character to level 70 to start playing. In eve you ned learning skills. Now as someone who has learning skills trained already I don't give a crap. However if a change like this was made compensation would need to be made to those who have already traned these skills. A better change IMO would be to make your 800k starting sp or whatever it is specifically focuses in learning.
Jaikar Isillia Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2007.11.27 01:52:00 - [55] Meh I did them everyone else can too thanks.
Ed Anger Weekly World News	Posted - 2007.11.27 01:56:00 - [56] Originally by: Jaikar Isillia Meh I did them everyone else can too thanks. this really is the only arguement the "nay" group seems to have. boohoo i spent the time everyone else should have to waste the time also...
Stitcher Caldari legion of qui Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.11.27 02:02:00 - [57] Edited by: Stitcher on 27/11/2007 02:04:38 Originally by: Ed Anger Originally by: Jaikar Isillia Meh I did them everyone else can too thanks. this really is the only arguement the "nay" group seems to have. boohoo i spent the time everyone else should have to waste the time also... "boo hoo"? Seriously, I spent that time and ISK buying the skillbooks and training them up, if a future update were to come along and completely negate all those skill levels, I'd want a refund of both Kredits and skillpoints, otherwise it's actual real-life physical time that I could have spent training something else that's been wasted. I'd say it's a damned fine argument against, tbh. We didn't get those skill levels for free, you know... The thing about Learning skill levels is that they only pay dividends in the long term. the time spent training up those skill levels is earned back over quite a long period of time. For players who have some or all of the advanced learning skills at level 5, the length of time that must pass before you've saved more training time than you spent is quite considerable. - The game is not the problem. The problem is that you are not adapting to the game.
Nito Musashi	Posted - 2007.11.27 02:03:00 - [58] eh train em up to level 2 or 3 to start train them up to 4 when skills start getting longer than the time it takes to train to level 3 then by the time all your skills are getting to 4 days + then train t1 learning to 5 train advanced to 2 or 3 continue etc. there is no law written in stone saying you have to train them all to level 5 to start off and neglect mission running/mining or whatever skills. perfectly manageable to balance your learning training while playing the game the way you want to play it. kinda silly to max skills too early anyway because the time it knocks off the low end skills is minor tho overall it can add up but, who cares its not a competition to reach the end game in eve like other games. so do it anyway you want or dont do it at all either way less its s bragging contest about sp per hour who cares.
Stitcher Caldari legion of qui Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.11.27 02:09:00 - [59] Originally by: Nito Musashi eh train em up to level 2 or 3 to start train them up to 4 when skills start getting longer than the time it takes to train to level 3 then by the time all your skills are getting to 4 days + then train t1 learning to 5 train advanced to 2 or 3 continue etc. The thing is that starting characters do already start off nowadays with anything up to four levels in one or more of the learning skills. My alt started off with two levels in Empathy, four levels in Instant Recall (or maybe Analytical Mind, not sure which), and three levels in Learning just from character creation. That's a hell of a leg up compared to what this character had in learning skills when he started, which was nothing. - The game is not the problem. The problem is that you are not adapting to the game.
War Bear Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.27 02:27:00 - [60] Since everyone needs navigation, engineering and electronics skills also why don't we just remove the need to train those as well shall we? Everything is funny with the Benny Hill theme song

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