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New Players Versus The Old Guard - Doing away with learning skills?

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Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.27 23:48:00 - [121] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: DaveW It's called 'Deferred Gratification'.... It's mirror of Real Life(tm). Adults understand it...., Children do not... Its called "bad game design" Well why don't you quit and go back to WoW about it? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Arcon Telf Gallente Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.11.27 23:51:00 - [122] Edited by: Arcon Telf on 27/11/2007 23:51:59 Originally by: Malcanis We elite players don't always read past the first couple of paragraphs. (noob) Congratulations! You're now part of the problem. We should find a way to nerf people like you - not learning skills. If it weren't for 'noobs' (what the hell is up with that spelling...) like me, you'd have no game to play sir. I agreed with you, and you still flame me - simply for being new.
Firebyrd Gallente Nomadic Industries	Posted - 2007.11.28 00:01:00 - [123] I just created a second player, and training a few levels of learning skills about 8 days worth, lowered Level 5s by 50%... so i guess its not much of a time sink is it????, and still apears to be pretty valuble ----------------------------------------------- Life is a Lemon, and i want my money back
Ben Derindar Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.11.28 00:59:00 - [124] I really want to try and understand the point of view that learning skills should go, but I just can't. Like any other skills, the learning skills are a personal choice. There is no obligation whatsoever to take them to a certain level by a certain time, and anyone who disagrees places far too much emphasis on the idea that skillpoints automatically equal success in this game. They most certainly do not, as groups such as Goonfleet can demonstrate. Learning skills must stay. Eve wouldn't be Eve without them. /Ben
Doppler Shift Red 42	Posted - 2007.11.28 01:03:00 - [125] Edited by: Doppler Shift on 28/11/2007 01:04:29 Originally by: Arcon Telf Edited by: Arcon Telf on 27/11/2007 23:51:59 Originally by: Malcanis We elite players don't always read past the first couple of paragraphs. (noob) Congratulations! You're now part of the problem. We should find a way to nerf people like you - not learning skills. If it weren't for 'noobs' (what the hell is up with that spelling...) like me, you'd have no game to play sir. I agreed with you, and you still flame me - simply for being new. I recommend taking the time early on to train Humor to Lvl5... will make the forum much more fun in the long run, very important for patch days! edit: Thick Skin Lvl3 is suitable alternative as well --- This is what's left of my signatu...[siggienerf][/siggienerf]
Arcon Telf Gallente Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.11.28 02:45:00 - [126] Originally by: Doppler Shift I recommend taking the time early on to train Humor to Lvl5... will make the forum much more fun in the long run, very important for patch days! edit: Thick Skin Lvl3 is suitable alternative as well Roger that. Good point, so noted. Thanks for the reality check (seriously).
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.28 03:07:00 - [127] Originally by: Arcon Telf Edited by: Arcon Telf on 27/11/2007 23:51:59 Originally by: Malcanis We elite players don't always read past the first couple of paragraphs. (noob) Congratulations! You're now part of the problem. We should find a way to nerf people like you - not learning skills. If it weren't for 'noobs' (what the hell is up with that spelling...) like me, you'd have no game to play sir. I agreed with you, and you still flame me - simply for being new. oh deary me what a bad person I am! I really must get into the habit of taking myself a little less seriously and using the odd bit of self-deprecating irony to admit my mistakes. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.28 03:08:00 - [128] Originally by: Doppler Shift Edited by: Doppler Shift on 28/11/2007 01:04:29 Originally by: Arcon Telf Edited by: Arcon Telf on 27/11/2007 23:51:59 Originally by: Malcanis We elite players don't always read past the first couple of paragraphs. (noob) Congratulations! You're now part of the problem. We should find a way to nerf people like you - not learning skills. If it weren't for 'noobs' (what the hell is up with that spelling...) like me, you'd have no game to play sir. I agreed with you, and you still flame me - simply for being new. I recommend taking the time early on to train Humor to Lvl5... will make the forum much more fun in the long run, very important for patch days! edit: Thick Skin Lvl3 is suitable alternative as well Train both to 5 or GTFO. L2P pls. Seriuously!! CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Karlemgne The Black Fleet The Cosa Nostra	Posted - 2007.11.28 09:23:00 - [129] Again, all you guys, including some "vets" are screaming about learning skills and how they should go. That's all well and good, but frankly, I had to waste my time in that hell whole of a time sink. I did it, and I stuck around. Now you want to "remove" that time sink. Essentially, you want to strip my character of about 3 million skill points and ME of over two months of training. That's not fair, in fact, I'm STILL ***ed that n00bs get an extra month of training on me. So if you want* to change the learning skill system, I understand. However, please understand that there are some of us that will never support this idea until we're promised that our learning skills skill points will somehow be given back to us. Until then, no, I think I'm not alone in saying no, new characters should not be simply handed the three months we had to put into learning skills. -Karlemgne P.S. Now that I think about it, should we actually be encouraging new players?
Karlemgne The Black Fleet The Cosa Nostra	Posted - 2007.11.28 09:25:00 - [130] Originally by: Arcon Telf Edited by: Arcon Telf on 27/11/2007 23:51:59 Originally by: Malcanis We elite players don't always read past the first couple of paragraphs. (noob) Congratulations! You're now part of the problem. We should find a way to nerf people like you - not learning skills. If it weren't for 'noobs' (what the hell is up with that spelling...) like me, you'd have no game to play sir. I agreed with you, and you still flame me - simply for being new. That's not actually true. In fact, I usually pretty much ignore anyone under 6 months old. They aren't worth my time to kill. -Karl
Gaius Sejanus Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.11.28 10:14:00 - [131] Quote: having to spend two months doing learning skills before starting to play the game really blows. Good thing you don't have to do it. When did something you don't have to do become a major game issue?
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2007.11.28 10:25:00 - [132] no
Brep Gallente Templars of Space	Posted - 2007.11.28 10:26:00 - [133] would be nice if you could by a new char with all learning skills at 5 for the cost of a game box. say $90 or so. or even now pay a few dollars to have all your learning skills set to 5. especially the advanced ones i really cant bring myself to spending months training them to 5 :( but i guess that would open a door we prolly wont want to go through :)
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2007.11.28 10:26:00 - [134] Edited by: Steve Hawkings on 28/11/2007 10:28:08 Originally by: Ceta Dillar /signed having to spend two months doing learning skills before starting to play the game really blows. you cant play while your learning skills ? not my problem you are so thick you cant figure out a way to play while training them.
Cinnia Journey	Posted - 2007.11.28 11:16:00 - [135] New Player here. I have been playing for around 8 weeks now. I have already got my training skills to 4+3 and that did not take me that long. I don't see that there is a need to change this.... Besides my training skills I've been able to train numerous other skills (gunnery/ships/drones) so as it stands having those couple of extra days on learning is a good thing. It adds depth, not much however. But as mention by some others - it gives some time to learn the game a bit and get a feel for things and how it all works. So i'd vote to keep it how it is at the moment.
Little Zandra Minmatar	Posted - 2007.11.28 11:19:00 - [136] If you wanna start a new character again just do like i did post that wanna buy a starter char and fork over some isk and start with a character that has all the learning skills done
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.28 11:20:00 - [137] Originally by: Steve Hawkings Edited by: Steve Hawkings on 28/11/2007 10:28:08 Originally by: Ceta Dillar /signed having to spend two months doing learning skills before starting to play the game really blows. you cant play while your learning skills ? not my problem you are so thick you cant figure out a way to play while training them. I suggest you try a new character, and go find hout how fun it is to play with frigate lvl 1 and small gun lvl one, while knowing that the next week, your character will not evolve one bit. Basic character can't do much, and the perspective of not seeing them evolve at the beginning of the game is a big repelling factor. At "end-game", for advanced skills people instinctively grasp the concept of having to spend a longer time to get new ressources and skills. But at the beginning of the game, sacrificing weeks to do nothing ? Obviously no one wants to do that. But why do people choose to spend this time doing learning skills anyway ? because if you do one week of learning skills, and then 1 week one useful skills, you'll get as many skills as you would get in 2 weeks without learning skills. Then the trial ends. Either you were smart and bored yourself doing the same stuff with the same skills in a non evolving ship for half of your time, or you were dumb enough not to realize what learning skills offer and wasted your time too. Forcing people to choose between 2 stupid idea doesn't smarten the game, doesn't make it interesting either. Bah, as long as they give back the time invested in it, removing learning skills is a good thing. -- random eve-related content --
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Karjala Inc. Onnenpyora	Posted - 2007.11.28 11:21:00 - [138] Edited by: Laechyd Eldgorn on 28/11/2007 11:22:14 Learning skills are pretty dumb. Basically you got to waste your precious absolutely-clueless-newbie time to train learning skills to do you can train the real skills later on. I'm all for scrapping them. edit: And you really do train those learning skills, it's not like it's a real choice. It would be just totally dumb -not- to train them.
Cinnia Journey	Posted - 2007.11.28 11:33:00 - [139] Edited by: Cinnia Journey on 28/11/2007 11:33:17 Originally by: Ares Lightfeather I suggest you try a new character, and go find hout how fun it is to play with frigate lvl 1 and small gun lvl one, while knowing that the next week, your character will not evolve one bit. Basic character can't do much, and the perspective of not seeing them evolve at the beginning of the game is a big repelling factor. At "end-game", for advanced skills people instinctively grasp the concept of having to spend a longer time to get new ressources and skills. But at the beginning of the game, sacrificing weeks to do nothing ? Obviously no one wants to do that. But why do people choose to spend this time doing learning skills anyway ? because if you do one week of learning skills, and then 1 week one useful skills, you'll get as many skills as you would get in 2 weeks without learning skills. Then the trial ends. Either you were smart and bored yourself doing the same stuff with the same skills in a non evolving ship for half of your time, or you were dumb enough not to realize what learning skills offer and wasted your time too. Forcing people to choose between 2 stupid idea doesn't smarten the game, doesn't make it interesting either. Bah, as long as they give back the time invested in it, removing learning skills is a good thing. I suggest to choose a better character when creating it then. No offense but it's rather easy to start with gun or mis with frig skill on 4 or 5.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.28 11:40:00 - [140] Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 28/11/2007 11:40:58 ... Doesn't change much if you start with frig 4 and guns to 4. It's still basic skills that offers you very limited capability, and without more skills put in (dunno... maybe, MWD, cloaks, AB, different EWAR capabilities, web, having more than 2 or 3 drones to speak about the very basics ?) the games gets boring within less than a week. And you have to learn those skills ASAP. The benefits of them is just too great to do without them. Unless you're dumb and/or like wasting your time in an already long game. -- random eve-related content --
Scott Ryder Infestation. The Cosa Nostra	Posted - 2007.11.28 11:51:00 - [141] Edited by: Scott Ryder on 28/11/2007 11:56:03 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 26/11/2007 21:37:24 /signed off with learning skills. They are not new players friendly. Reimbursed with attribute points. :) Whenever i am reading a thread and i see you have posted there, i get so god damn angry. Im pretty close to smashing my hand trough the table. You are so utterly stupid and should have all posting rights removed. You are constantly throwing out flame bait, im actually starting to think you are doing it on purpose. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Kehmor, I am a vet and I don't mind for the greater good of new players experience. CCP only needs to give back maximum attributes and some bonus skill points. You bought the character on ebay or the forums or something, you are not a vet. Or is the rumors true, that you are old jenny and have taken trolling to a new level? At least get your facts before you nerf signatures, You just removed the picture of a dead Santa, and not the text where he was told to just pay the ransom, and THEN it was eve related
Talon SilverHawk Caldari Patria o Muerte	Posted - 2007.11.28 11:56:00 - [142] Originally by: JamnOne Just pretend for a second you are not a vet of this. Pretend you have no friends playing this game. Pretend this is your first MMO and now create a character. The problem is when you create a character you don't know what to do with the attributes that you get. Quote: Like we all had to when new. Somtimes people talk like Vets started off with 20 million + skill points. In point of fact new players these days get more of a start than the vets did why do you want more ? Tal
ry ry StateCorp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.11.28 12:06:00 - [143] Edited by: ry ry on 28/11/2007 12:06:50 this stuff about new players not wanting to train them up is misguiding anyway. the only people who are actually bothered just want to start an industry alt to farm datacores. real new players are too excited about being able to afford their first rifter or something to care. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.28 12:36:00 - [144] Originally by: Brep would be nice if you could by a new char with all learning skills at 5 for the cost of a game box. say $90 or so. or even now pay a few dollars to have all your learning skills set to 5. especially the advanced ones i really cant bring myself to spending months training them to 5 :( but i guess that would open a door we prolly wont want to go through :) You kind of can. Look on the character sale forum. key words "Maxed/good/completed learnings". $90 of GTCs should do the job. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.28 12:36:00 - [145] Originally by: ry ry Edited by: ry ry on 28/11/2007 12:06:50 this stuff about new players not wanting to train them up is misguiding anyway. the only people who are actually bothered just want to start an industry alt to farm datacores. real new players are too excited about being able to afford their first rifter or something to care. Bingo. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Kathryn Dougans B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm	Posted - 2007.11.28 12:52:00 - [146] I'm a reasonably new player. Learning skills are tedious, but I don't think they should be removed. There are several things that a new player has available to them that means the learning skills aren't as much of a timesink as they initially appear. The 10-part tutorial missions, for example, give out skillbooks, and some +1 implants. These will boost skill training a bit, in the first couple of weeks anyway, so training enough skills to get a good idea of what the game's about is fairly quick. +1, and +2 implants are pretty cheap, and affordable in a short period of time to a new player. Certainly more affordable than the advanced learning skills. You get more result for less isk and time by training the cybernetics skill to use the cheap implants, than by training the learnings. Of course, training the learnings as well gets a bigger result, but then you're not training anything else that's directly useable. So, my opinion, the learning skills don't prevent a new player from experiencing a good amount of what EVE has to offer in the 14-day, or 30-day trials. Once you're out of the trial, then learnings become more important, because things like well-fitted cruisers need more skills and the benefit of learning is more noticeable. The time taken to train the learning skills is time you can spend doing things to make isk, make friends, have fun and explore the rest of EVE. I read a lot about how certain races/backgrounds, training skills in particular orders, using particular ships/setups, using certain agent types, not staying to salvage etc. all provide such things as "Optimum SP/Hour ratio", "ideal Isk/hour", "efficient LP/hour", but rarely anything about what provides the most Fun/hour. Is Eve a job? or a social game? But what do I know? I chose Amarr because I couldn't make a portrait I liked with the other races.
Guttripper	Posted - 2007.11.28 14:23:00 - [147] I made a choice to spend the time to achieve the 5,376,000 skill points to complete the Learning tree. I was not forced by CCP nor anyone else because my skill tree could not expand beyond that tier. Whereas others made a choice to expand in other skill tiers, I was looking ahead to a long term reward through shorter future skill times overall. But some players want my rewards removed because they do not want that "grind"? Alright, I will make anyone a deal. CCP can remove my 5,376,000 skill points from Learning while removing the same number of skill points from every other pilot. If a player does not have that amount in Learning, then remove bits and pieces from all their other skill trees until all players have the same number of skill points removed. Everyone will be on even footing since everyone will have to "grind" out the ~lost~ skill points. And if someone happens to go into the negative skill points - oh well, right? If people want to dictate that the whole Learning tree should be removed, then I want to dictate these negative skill players are out of luck. More dictating on my part - since I do not know anyone that has a name created with numbers, any and all players that have numbers as part of their name should be removed. H82BUno0b1O1!!1 ----- This game offers a choice. If people want to spend the time to "grind" away at the Learning tree, so be it. Nowhere in the tutorial does it state that a player mustspend the first x months completing the Learning tree.
Tamayo Amarr The JORG Corporation Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.11.28 16:05:00 - [148] Removing the Learning Skills reduces the choices available to the players as they develop their characters. Playing EVE requires making choices. The more choices available, the better. ...it ain't pretty when the pretty leaves you with no place to go... ...if you think you need it, hereÆs the place to feed it. But it ainÆt pretty...
Karlemgne The Black Fleet The Cosa Nostra	Posted - 2007.11.28 17:02:00 - [149] Originally by: Guttripper I made a choice to spend the time to achieve the 5,376,000 skill points to complete the Learning tree. I was not forced by CCP nor anyone else because my skill tree could not expand beyond that tier. Whereas others made a choice to expand in other skill tiers, I was looking ahead to a long term reward through shorter future skill times overall. But some players want my rewards removed because they do not want that "grind"? Alright, I will make anyone a deal. CCP can remove my 5,376,000 skill points from Learning while removing the same number of skill points from every other pilot. If a player does not have that amount in Learning, then remove bits and pieces from all their other skill trees until all players have the same number of skill points removed. Everyone will be on even footing since everyone will have to "grind" out the ~lost~ skill points. And if someone happens to go into the negative skill points - oh well, right? If people want to dictate that the whole Learning tree should be removed, then I want to dictate these negative skill players are out of luck. More dictating on my part - since I do not know anyone that has a name created with numbers, any and all players that have numbers as part of their name should be removed. H82BUno0b1O1!!1 ----- This game offers a choice. If people want to spend the time to "grind" away at the Learning tree, so be it. Nowhere in the tutorial does it state that a player mustspend the first x months completing the Learning tree. /signed
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.11.28 17:18:00 - [150] Originally by: Steppa The muse just struck me as I'm balancing my checkbook here and was pondering the pros and cons of starting up a new industrial character. Even as a four-year veteran of this game, I'm loath to do that because once I start him up, I've basically got to wait x number of days until his learns are up to a point where skills are quicker to train. This is one of the biggest dead horses that's been beaten on these forums, but I wonder if anyone has ever suggested doing away with the learning skills completely? Obviously, they don't do anything but enable quicker training. Unlike other MMO's, none of your attributes are taken into account when doing anything that's done in the gameworld. So, to level the playing field between absolutely new players and the old guard...remove them from the game. 1) Let everyone determine their starting attributes at character creation. Adjust so that it's possible to start out with what amounts to level IV basic learns and increase/decrease attributes into the advanced learn ranges through school choices or heritage choices. 2) Use implants to increase from there or include attribute-increasing storyline missions to further increase a character's attributes. 3) Allow current players to roll back skill points invested in learning skills to redistribute as they please on EXISTING SKILLS...or do it unrestricted at a 2:1 ratio. Or just allow us to do it in an unrestricted manner. Again, just pondering. What CCP should do is just boost everybodys learning skills to max rather than make any fancy algorytham. Anyone who has lost out can basically cry for a day, just like the crybabies who whined about the 800ksp noob alts. / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

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CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!