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Reinforcements
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Posted - 2007.11.27 16:02:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Baron Erique
So, I would say DON'T listen to the whiners who have absolutely no patience and KEEP the learning skills. And a year from now, DON'T listen to the same whiners who want the skill training formula changed because they didn't train the learning skills and are now training at half the rate as the players who did.
Everyone trains the learning skills. You are new and think you are smart and found a "secret" concerning figuring out to train heavy on the learning skills in the beginning. Guess what. It's not a secret. Everyone knows to train them. Everyone trains them up to a decent extent eventually. You'd be a fool not to.
So, since it really does not take a master tactician to know to train the skills, and everyone knows for a fact that if they don't train them their character will forever be stunted, why even have them in the game? They. Add. Nothing. --- "There are to many of them! We are out numbered! We need reinforcements!"
"Somebody call my name?" |
Ares Lightfeather
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.11.27 16:03:00 -
[92]
Just in case you don't know (because obviously you don't) CCP did say that learning skills are a mistake.
/signed.
Learning skills serve no purpose other than wasting your time when you start playing... Eve is slow enough already.
Just give +10 base stats to all and give points back so we can train something useful instead. -- random eve-related content -- |
Graveyard Tan
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Posted - 2007.11.27 16:11:00 -
[93]
Originally by: RaTTuS All new characters started after the end of this year will get Tech2 Bpo's - one per account - just so that they can compete with everyone else.
also they'll get pimped skills - all over and start with 10-30mil depending on what startup options they choose - however they will not be able to train any learning skills.
I see the OPs idea as a solid one. Ridicule it all you want and act like he was asking for free tech2 BPOs, but the reasoning is solid.
I've learned over the last several years that the world is screwed up and 95% of everyone just can't think. Often a group of correct thinking people are dead on target, but the masses of people who have no clue just don't -or can't- get it.
That being said, it is OK to disagree with said idea. But you people who think the OP is just whining and posting unreasonable ideas are off. Fix your minds. His argument is valid.
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Exuscon
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.11.27 16:27:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Exuscon on 27/11/2007 16:27:58 Edited by: Exuscon on 27/11/2007 16:27:05
Originally by: Shakuul Learnings skills act as a penalty to anyone who doesn't have multiple accounts and time to train up 1-2 months of learning skills before actually training skills to they can play the game. Its really a terrible tradeoff, you're faced with two options: 1) Train skills so you can enjoy more aspects of the game, but nerf your character's ability to continue to do so in the future 2) Give your character the ability to train skills quickly, but be unable to enjoy most of the game for the first month or so.
This is a HUGE turnoff to newer players IMO, and should be phased out.
I agree and anywhere I have read on other gaming forums about EVE is the new players complaining about the same thing. It is the reason most of them do not subscribe or pay 1 month then realise and cancel their subscription. If EVE wants new subscribers who stay a subscriber should do somthing about this. Right now as it stands, the only new subscribers EVE is getting are the SWEATSHOP trials!
"Save the tree! Wipe your arse with an owl instead."
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Baron Erique
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.11.27 16:27:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Reinforcements
Originally by: Baron Erique
So, I would say DON'T listen to the whiners who have absolutely no patience and KEEP the learning skills. And a year from now, DON'T listen to the same whiners who want the skill training formula changed because they didn't train the learning skills and are now training at half the rate as the players who did.
Everyone trains the learning skills. You are new and think you are smart and found a "secret" concerning figuring out to train heavy on the learning skills in the beginning. Guess what. It's not a secret. Everyone knows to train them. Everyone trains them up to a decent extent eventually. You'd be a fool not to.
So, since it really does not take a master tactician to know to train the skills, and everyone knows for a fact that if they don't train them their character will forever be stunted, why even have them in the game? They. Add. Nothing.
No, I don't think I found a "secret". And while MOST people might train them EVENTUALLY, I highly doubt EVERYONE does. Furthermore, it is that "eventually" part that shows that the learning skills DO add something to the game: another choice that affects how things play out down the road. While most people may train them EVENTUALLY, there will be a difference that is a result of whether that "eventually" was when the character was a few days old or many months old.
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Khes
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Posted - 2007.11.27 16:43:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Khes on 27/11/2007 16:44:35 Im not saying learning skills is the only right way to go, it is just that if you think lerning skills is a time sink the whole skill-concept in Eve is allso a time sink. The only thing skills actually does is making access to things in game take time, and make you able to use a thing better take time. With learning skills you can decrease the time it takes just like implants. Just like I can choose to train a skill from lvl4 to lv5 to fly a ship a little bit faster, I can also choose to train learning to learn a little bit faster. I see not big difference between learning skills and implants, shall we take away implants aswell?
Just because everyone (allmost) trains learningskills is it wasteless? Everyone (allmost) trains Navigation to lvl5 eventually, shall we take that out too?
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Steppa
Gallente Incognito Inc
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Posted - 2007.11.27 19:01:00 -
[97]
Originally by: kanojo1969 iirc the devs have stated in the past that:
- learning skills were a big mistake as they bore new players into quitting - it's too late to do anything about it
doesn't anyone else remember having heard that?
You mean like it's too late to do anything about multiple MWD's on a single ship, being able to fly fifteen heavy drones, or being able to warp to something at zero?
Where there's a will there's a way. Maybe they can take all of the time and effort (wasted) on nerfing my carrier and put it toward rethinking attributes.
They. Add. Nothing.
Oh, and by the by, "wasting" time to train into a battleship does what? It gives you the ability to strap into the battleship. Likewise with all other skill prereqs.
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Malcanis
High4Life SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.27 19:02:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Baron Erique Newbie here, just 20 days old (FINALLY, a Mac client!)...I don't know what all the complaining is about regarding the learning skills. I've been training them and I'm still having a lot of fun. I don't think the problem lies with the learning skills; it lies with the ones who expect instant gratification from everything they do in life, who are unable to comprehend costs vs. benefits, and who are incapable of thinking of outcomes more than a few days into the future. Frankly, if the learning skills cause this type of person to quit, great! It would be nice to finally have a place (even a virtual one) to go where nobody has entitlement issues.
I came to this game because I heard about how challenging it can be and how a large segment of the players are actually mature. I really hope CCP doesn't keep caving to the instant gratification/easy button crowd. THAT move would be what causes THIS new player to quit.
So, I would say DON'T listen to the whiners who have absolutely no patience and KEEP the learning skills. And a year from now, DON'T listen to the same whiners who want the skill training formula changed because they didn't train the learning skills and are now training at half the rate as the players who did.
UR LIEING U WILL SOON QUIT NO1 CAN TRAIN LERNING SK1LLZ!
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
High4Life SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.27 19:04:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Reinforcements
Originally by: Baron Erique
So, I would say DON'T listen to the whiners who have absolutely no patience and KEEP the learning skills. And a year from now, DON'T listen to the same whiners who want the skill training formula changed because they didn't train the learning skills and are now training at half the rate as the players who did.
Everyone trains the learning skills. You are new and think you are smart and found a "secret" concerning figuring out to train heavy on the learning skills in the beginning. Guess what. It's not a secret. Everyone knows to train them. Everyone trains them up to a decent extent eventually. You'd be a fool not to.
So, since it really does not take a master tactician to know to train the skills, and everyone knows for a fact that if they don't train them their character will forever be stunted, why even have them in the game? They. Add. Nothing.
Except. A. Choice. Between. Quick. Rewards. And. Long. Term. Rewards. How. Totally. Unlike. EvE. Is. That?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Karlemgne
The Black Fleet The Cosa Nostra
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Posted - 2007.11.27 19:15:00 -
[100]
What about all the time I spent training my learning skills? For example, when I started playing, you had to train the basics to 5 before you could train the advances.
So I've got all the basics to 5 these days and all the advanced to 4. Meaning I have MILLIONS of SP in learning. So what happens to the two or three months of training time I put in this?
Do I get it back? Can I allocate it to other skills? Given that CCP changed the amount of starting SPs so that new players got what it took me the first month or two in game to train, for free, and I was never boosted to compensate, I'm doubting CCP would let me re-allocate my learning SPs.
As such, I'm totally against the idea.
-Karlemgne
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Skraeling Shortbus
Caldari The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.11.27 19:20:00 -
[101]
Originally by: SirMoric Learningskills actually gives you time to learn the game.
While you spend time learning about the secret of learning, you also spend time learning the game from the smallest crafts and onwards.
rgds
LOL, how? You have to have the skills to do anything in the game anyway right, so while your waiting on your learnings to finish (which some people make the mistake of doing) you really are not learning a damn thing to begin with.
Love to the Assault Frigate! |
Caine 607
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.11.27 19:25:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Tyr Zewa It's kinda fun to see how jealous some people are of new players... blah blah...clones for the "kick".
ZZZZZZZ
Originally by: Malcanis yes. All the accounts of players who seemingly didn't quit because of learning skills are an illusion. It is simply untrue that there are over 200,000 active accounts owned by people who weren't deterred by learning skills. It is demonstrably and logically impossible that anyone could ever have tolerated starting with less than +10 in all stats and 1M SP. No such people exist, and if they did they must all be OCD sufferers.
New players should be given everything they want on a plate immediately, as anything less will mean that no new players will ever come to EvE, and what this game sorely needs is an influx of ADD-addled whiners who DEMAND instant gratification. Anyone who says otherwise is just jealous!
Next up: Why new players should start with 10Bn ISK. After all, some players have much more than this, and it would take over 5 years to accumulate this much ISK by mining Veldspar in 1.0 systems. Not giving all new players 10Bn will mean that no new players will ever subscribe and EvE will die within 72 hours. True story.
Too hilarious... made my day !
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Kehmor
Caldari PAK
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Posted - 2007.11.27 21:00:00 -
[103]
what a lot of "vets" are forgetting (I mean the really old farts like me) is that when we started the prospect of training skills was no where near as daunting. All we needed was basic learning skills to level 4, level 5 eventually. Now new playes are told that not only do they need a hole new (higher ranked) set of skills to 4 aswell, they also need to come up with 20mil to somehow pay for these.
What a lot of the new players are forgetting is that actually comparatively they have it fairly easy. Also that they do not need learning skills straight away. Sure they help, but you can also train other stuff first. The other problem is they don't realise they can play from day one, more so than I could. I litrally did nothing in my first 3 days of eve. NOTHING. just trained skills and flew around a bit. now with upwards of 800k sp you can start pvping or mission running or mining or whatever on your first day if you like (hell i started pvping with around 400k or less SP).
The people who say this will **** off the vets, that depends. Compensation of some kind would be needed, there is no way around it. If we got to spend the sp in something else we may come around to the idea, I don't see many people complaining about 2-5mil sp which they get to spend on whatever they want. If no compensation was given, a lot of vets would probably quit on principle alone (I wouldn't personally but I'd still whine like a *****)
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CaperPuts
Minmatar Life. Universe. Everything. Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.27 21:39:00 -
[104]
I have done all my learning except for advanced level 5, and I actually support this idea. o_O
This is the first one that I wouldn't mind, and it actually makes sense.
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Ilvan
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Posted - 2007.11.27 21:45:00 -
[105]
I've trained numerous characters to 4 in all learning skills and I strongly support the removal of these awful, awful time sinks.
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DaveW
Caldari South Park Development
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Posted - 2007.11.27 22:06:00 -
[106]
It's called 'Deferred Gratification'.... It's mirror of Real Life(tm). Adults understand it...., Children do not... ---------------------------------------------------
"If you can't stand the heat..., stay out of the Kitchen." |
Chaplain Veritas
Amarr The Aduro Protocol The Fifth Race
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Posted - 2007.11.27 22:13:00 -
[107]
Originally by: SirMoric Learningskills actually gives you time to learn the game.
While you spend time learning about the secret of learning, you also spend time learning the game from the smallest crafts and onwards.
rgds
wow what a bunch of rubbish. ____________________________ the eyes are the groin of the face - dwight shrute |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.11.27 22:14:00 -
[108]
Kehmor, I am a vet and I don't mind for the greater good of new players experience. CCP only needs to give back maximum attributes and some bonus skill points. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon.
Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game. |
Malcanis
High4Life SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.27 22:14:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Exuscon Edited by: Exuscon on 27/11/2007 16:27:58 Edited by: Exuscon on 27/11/2007 16:27:05
Originally by: Shakuul Learnings skills act as a penalty to anyone who doesn't have multiple accounts and time to train up 1-2 months of learning skills before actually training skills to they can play the game. Its really a terrible tradeoff, you're faced with two options: 1) Train skills so you can enjoy more aspects of the game, but nerf your character's ability to continue to do so in the future 2) Give your character the ability to train skills quickly, but be unable to enjoy most of the game for the first month or so.
This is a HUGE turnoff to newer players IMO, and should be phased out.
I agree and anywhere I have read on other gaming forums about EVE is the new players complaining about the same thing. It is the reason most of them do not subscribe or pay 1 month then realise and cancel their subscription. If EVE wants new subscribers who stay a subscriber should do somthing about this. Right now as it stands, the only new subscribers EVE is getting are the SWEATSHOP trials!
I give up. You're immune to basic logic. The idea that one can intersperse learning skills with other types seems incoprehensible to you.
Still, it's best that you give up know. If 2 months seems like a long time to train up for something you want then EvE is certainly the wrong game for you and the others who fall at the first hurdle.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
High4Life SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.27 22:20:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Kehmor what a lot of "vets" are forgetting (I mean the really old farts like me) is that when we started the prospect of training skills was no where near as daunting. All we needed was basic learning skills to level 4, level 5 eventually. Now new playes are told that not only do they need a hole new (higher ranked) set of skills to 4 aswell, they also need to come up with 20mil to somehow pay for these.
What a lot of the new players are forgetting is that actually comparatively they have it fairly easy. Also that they do not need learning skills straight away. Sure they help, but you can also train other stuff first. The other problem is they don't realise they can play from day one, more so than I could. I litrally did nothing in my first 3 days of eve. NOTHING. just trained skills and flew around a bit. now with upwards of 800k sp you can start pvping or mission running or mining or whatever on your first day if you like (hell i started pvping with around 400k or less SP).
The people who say this will **** off the vets, that depends. Compensation of some kind would be needed, there is no way around it. If we got to spend the sp in something else we may come around to the idea, I don't see many people complaining about 2-5mil sp which they get to spend on whatever they want. If no compensation was given, a lot of vets would probably quit on principle alone (I wouldn't personally but I'd still whine like a *****)
Suck to be you. I told the learner agent to go f*ck a cactus and went exploring level 1/2 deadpaces. Found a 24M ISK mod after a couple of days. Took about 5 to get into a kestrel, hit Caracal around Day 20, Ferox about day 40, Drake about a week or two after Kail. Got pwnt in lo-sec a couple of times as well.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
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Gaius Sejanus
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.11.27 22:21:00 -
[111]
Quote: what a lot of "vets" are forgetting (I mean the really old farts like me) is that when we started the prospect of training skills was no where near as daunting. All we needed was basic learning skills to level 4, level 5 eventually. Now new playes are told that not only do they need a hole new (higher ranked) set of skills to 4 aswell, they also need to come up with 20mil to somehow pay for these.
I remember it quite clearly, because when I started nearly 2 years ago, I faced the same situation, basic 5s, advanced 4s, 20 million isk. You know what? It gave me a goal and something to immediately shoot for. One of the flaws in the big sandbox game is not having a clear thing to shoot for. Anything that provides such a goal is an enhancement. I realized that I'd need cash to afford the skills, so I figured out how to get that cash, even with the paltry 40,000 skillpoints I started with. Within 2 months I had all of the Learning tree done, a comfortable sized wallet, and ready to find a new goal to strive for. Was 2 months the optimal time frame for Learning? No, but nor are you required to do nothing but Learning at the start. Whenever I saw I needed Skill X at level Y in order to fly/fit a ship that I wanted...I TRAINED IT. Then went back to Learning. Last night I broke the 35M SP barrier, and that's just over 2 weeks prior to my 2nd birthday. Clearly I was greatly harmed by taking a whole 2 months to get to 5/4.
As for Learning adding nothing to the game: HA. It provides levels of choice. Many levels of choice, actually. With about a week of total time spent training Learning, a newbie is getting skillpoints at about 70% of the rate of a vet. The extra weeks of training in Learning only provide a small closure in distance. Whether you want to close that gap or not is entirely up to you.
A week's worth of training is really not a big deal. If you decide to be obsessive about going 5/4 or even 5/5, then that's on you. You don't have to do it.
But hey, as long as we're talking about reimbursing points from Learning, I'll be fully expecting a 750,000 point bonus to account for what newbies get in raw skills these days that I didn't. Newbies on minute 1 have more skillpoints than I had after my first month. Let's get some equality going.
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Maximillian Dragonard
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Posted - 2007.11.27 22:36:00 -
[112]
Consider this..... I didn't spend a single minute training charisma for over a year and a half... until I decided to start skilling up for a CS... Then I took the time to train it ____________________
EWAR... love it or hate it.... learn to deal with it! |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.27 22:37:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Karyuudo Tydraad You know, I'd be happy if they just deleted all our learning skill SP and gave everyone +10 to every attribute. I poured millions of SP into them, and it was by far the dullest portion of the game. I've had friends that formed trial accounts but felt discouraged by how long it'd take them just to get to the point where they could train at the same rate as everyone else. I mean, granted I doubt they would have joined anyway with a mindset like that, but it's certainly not contributing to the allure of the game to new players.
This. Id gladly "lose" the SP to have it done.
Learning skills are one of the worse things CCP has done with the game.
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Arcon Telf
Gallente Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.11.27 23:16:00 -
[114]
I'm a new player (thanks to the Mac client). I read these forums in the months leading up to the Mac release, so I'd like to think that I knew what I was getting myself into (as much as one can without actually playing). That said, the skill system is a big draw for me. But I see valid points on both sides...
Elitism is never a good thing. That said, I don't think the Eve community is elitist...but for those of us who last past the honeymoon phase, there is nothing else like it. However, I would oppose any initiative geared towards catering towards the masses or placating those interested in instant gratification. The Eve community is clearly a special place (and a specialized one). I also realize that CCP (and Eve) needs subscribers to continue to thrive. But I do not think Eve needs the kind of numbers that World of Warcraft has...and I don't think that's what CCP/Eve should be striving for. It's that whole quality/quantity thing. :-) A balance between profit/mass marketing and a player base of true quality needs to be found.
I suppose what I'm saying is that outside of the game mechanics, the biggest draw for me in the months leading up to the Mac client release was the community. That's what really defines Eve. Sure, it helps that I'm a Sci-Fi geek, but I need a great community to get into any MMO.
I have no complaints about spending some time on learning skills. I think that's because I took a fair amount of time to research Eve before I took the plunge, and I accepted the learning skills as a part of the system that makes Eve different/great. MMOs require a lot of investment, and I'm the kind of player who will not play a minute unless the community behind a game generates a lot of enthusiasm on my part - before I ever install.
I apologize for the rambling nature of this post. I have not played Eve long enough to really be qualified to make my next statement, but I'll say it anyway. It seems to me that the current skill system in Eve (including the Learnings) lends itself to a special community. If doing away with learnings would dilute that, I would oppose it.
Being able to fly a BS or capital or get t2 mods faster is worthless if the community goes to crap because it's become saturated with exactly the kind if player most of us seek to avoid (and thus found Eve)...
Like others have said, it's about having a choice. Most other MMOs, even other so called 'sandbox' MMOs are in the end linear - grind towards the endgame, grind to find the super duper items, etc. It eventually becomes like playing the slots in Vegas, hoping for the perfect item to drop this time through the instance. I think that idea makes most of us just a little bit sick.
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Malcanis
High4Life SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.27 23:28:00 -
[115]
"Elitism is never a good thing."
Pft. Good players think it is!
"That said, I don't think the Eve community is elitist.."
Wait... you must be playing the other EvE. I think you're on the wrong forum.
Yeah I'm elitist, and I'm not sorry. Insofar as I am one of the elite (don't look too close, that paint ain't dry yet) it's because I worked for it, waited for it, risked for it, planned for it, fought for it. That little scrap of eliteness is mine. And if I hadn't worked, waited, risked, planned and fought for it, I wouldn't give a damb about it.
If I may recall an old proverb to your attention:
That which is gotten cheaply is held in content
If it was easy to be "elite", if it was quick and took no effort and you couldn't lose, why would anyone care? And if you don't care, why are you playing?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Arcon Telf
Gallente Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.11.27 23:36:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Malcanis
If it was easy to be "elite", if it was quick and took no effort and you couldn't lose, why would anyone care? And if you don't care, why are you playing?
I think you misunderstood me, and I'm sure it was my fault. Becoming Elite within Eve is awesome - something everyone - myself included - should strive for. We all know Eve is cutthroat, competitive, dangerous, etc. That's what makes it so great!
But being one of the best, most experienced (etc.) within the Eve universe is different than being an elitist in real life.
I only meant to express that we need to balance the need for expansion and growth of the Eve community (presumably by making it friendlier to new users) with the current quality of the player base we have. I for one have no qualms with Eve as a new player because I took the time to research before getting involved.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.27 23:42:00 -
[117]
Originally by: DaveW
It's called 'Deferred Gratification'.... It's mirror of Real Life(tm). Adults understand it...., Children do not...
Its called "bad game design"
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Ceta Dillar
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Posted - 2007.11.27 23:43:00 -
[118]
/signed having to spend two months doing learning skills before starting to play the game really blows.
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Malcanis
High4Life SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.27 23:47:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Arcon Telf
Originally by: Malcanis
If it was easy to be "elite", if it was quick and took no effort and you couldn't lose, why would anyone care? And if you don't care, why are you playing?
I think you misunderstood me, and I'm sure it was my fault. Becoming Elite within Eve is awesome - something everyone - myself included - should strive for. We all know Eve is cutthroat, competitive, dangerous, etc. That's what makes it so great!
But being one of the best, most experienced (etc.) within the Eve universe is different than being an elitist in real life.
I only meant to express that we need to balance the need for expansion and growth of the Eve community (presumably by making it friendlier to new users) with the current quality of the player base we have. I for one have no qualms with Eve as a new player because I took the time to research before getting involved.
We elite players don't always read past the first couple of paragraphs.
(noob)
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Frug
Zenithal Harvest
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Posted - 2007.11.27 23:47:00 -
[120]
Ain't nothing wrong with the learning skills. It's another decision you have to make, and it is a choice when you want to train them and when you want to defer the training. It's a good system.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles |
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