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Reinforcements	Posted - 2007.11.27 05:51:00 - [1] First of all, I think the current eve skill training system is better than any MMOs "leveling" system. In this thread I will focus solely on the attribute system, which ties in heavily to the learning skills. Learning skills are not fun to train. They don't make you fly faster. They don't make you shoot farther. They don't make you mine more efficiently. And yet, any serious gamer, or just smart gamer, will know that training the learning skills as soon as possible will benefit their character the most. Every day, every hour they put off training learning skills equals slower skill training time overall. People, especially new players, feel an incredible burden to train these skills. Whether you feel they are wise to think this way or not, it is a fact that that is how they feel. In my opinion they are correct to feel that way. In my opinion, only a fool would put off training the learning skills. There are a few people here and there who have the alien (to me) mindset that training the learning skills in the beginning does not matter, but these people, no matter how right they feel they are, are the minority. One interesting thing to note is that even these "No one is FORCING you to train the learning skills!!!" people admit that training the learning skills is "boring" and "should be done in phases so you can stand it." My reply: "Why even have it in the game then?" This "forced grind" (in the minds of new players) turns a lot of people off to EVE. Make no mistake about it, EVE is a competitive game. Any time spent not training the all-important learning skills feels like you are falling behind all the people who started the same week you, let alone the people who already have 50 million skill points more than you. What do learning skills do for us? Why are they needed in EVE? To me, they are nothing more than a time sink, they are the only grind in EVE. And to make it worse, the longer you wait to train them the worse off your character will be. No thanks. I have a solution...... --- "There are to many of them! We are out numbered! We need reinforcements!" "Somebody call my name?"
Reinforcements	Posted - 2007.11.27 05:51:00 - [2] Preface: Right now, all characters start with 30 mixed attributes from their race/bloodline, and then 5 additional attribute points they can add on. By training all learning skills to max level, a character will gain 50 attribute points + 10% more than the total attribute points (implants not included) for max levels in the "learning" skill. So a fully maxed character will have the equivalent of 85 attribute points + 8.5 more from learning = 93.5 attribute points (implants not included). Solution: Get rid of all the learning skills. They are not needed. Wipe them out completely. Boom, gone. No more learning skill category. Instead- -add an additional 6 attribute points to all starting attributes on each of the bloodlines. Keeping this level across the races and bloodlines will keep all bloodlines unique from each other and preserve all players original reason (attribute wise) for choosing their specific bloodline. So now, in effect, all characters will start with 60 attribute points instead of 30, yet they will stay uniform in relation to each other. -allow starting characters to add up to 10 attribute points as he chooses at character creation, instead of only 5. Allow him to add no more than 6 to any one attribute. -for every 1m skill points a character gains, allow him to add four additional attribute points. This stops happening when characters reach 6 million skill points. -If needed-, implement a simple system which dissuades players from putting attribute points on the same attribute every single time. The end result? EVE characters start out with 70 attribute points instead of 35, and by the time they have 6 million skill points they will have 94 attribute points total....just for playing the game and training skills such as gunnery, space ship command, and electronics. Now the "attribute gaining grind" is done away with, AND players have much more ability to customize their characters. You can think of it as the character creation process (when players are least experienced with the game, and therefore aren't 100% what to do) taking a few months, allowing new players to really study things out..giving them time to decide exactly the attribute layout of their personal character as they play the game. %%%Do away with the learning skills entirely? But what about the vets who invested months of skill training time into them? Simple. After the patch, lets say a 14 million SP character logs in. He had had 3.2 million skill points in learning skills. As soon as he docks in a station, a box will pop up asking him how he would like to allocate his free 3.2 million skill points, and how he would like to spend his 24 additional attribute points (since he is over 6 million SP he will get all 24 attribute points right away). This system greatly improves the overall attribute/character creation system. It allows new players to train FUN skills worry free right off the bat. It also lets them make more informed character creation decisions since the process will basically go on until they reach 6m SP. Vets don't lose out on anything, since they get a small christmas of SP, yet it is still perfectly fair. The amount of SP in learning skills a character had when the servers go down for the patch will be the exact amount he will get to place on any skills of his choosing. Also, vets will get to place 24 attribute points where they want them, which is fun but still fair, since those 24 attribute points will only bring them back to the level of total attribute points their learning skills enabled them to potentially have before the patch. --- "There are to many of them! We are out numbered! We need reinforcements!" "Somebody call my name?"
Reinforcements	Posted - 2007.11.27 05:52:00 - [3] Reserved --- "There are to many of them! We are out numbered! We need reinforcements!" "Somebody call my name?"
Tenebrious Quantum Technologies	Posted - 2007.11.27 05:56:00 - [4] Please no.
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.11.27 06:00:00 - [5] I like the arrows. those are nice. Everyone should put little arrows and stuff around their topic titles. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Bein Glorious GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.27 06:03:00 - [6] Originally by: Frug I like the arrows. those are nice. Everyone should put little arrows and stuff around their topic titles. that's what i was thinkin'
Horchan Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.27 06:08:00 - [7] They make it look all fancy like, or somesuch. --- Originally by: VJ Maverick Jita is closed on Sundays. It's a holy day.
insidion Caldari Last of the Technocracy	Posted - 2007.11.27 06:15:00 - [8] The system you suggest also would basically reward players the longer you were around too, which is a good thing. Would love it if it were to happen but it NEVER will. Simply put, CCP wants you to waste your time and effort because it makes them richer. Either a new person struggles trying to get learning done, which motivates them to do little else until they can actually DO something other than just learning Learning, or they just quit after a few months out of sheer frustration. Financially, they have gotten the most money for the least amount of cost. Even if somehow they did streamline the new player experience to abolish the worst timesink in the game, it's pretty much guaranteed that they would just say that the vets would have to eat the time and resources spent and give them nothing for it. The 'do away with learning' has been suggested ad nauseum, but that's just how they are....they don't REALLY care about the players. Think I'm wrong? Want to rise to CCP's defence? Go for it, but as for me....sorry, but I'll judge them on their current policy of inaction in this regard and believe it when I see it.
Princess Xenia	Posted - 2007.11.27 06:40:00 - [9] Think of these learning skills as an anti-wow filter... A filter to prevent SHORT-SIGHTED people from playing such an insane game: EVE. or think of it as: Most of us have to get an education for a QUARTER of a century... only then to start working and be a 'productive' member of society... was spending such time studying good to yourself??? IMO there is no right or wrong asnwer... U harvest what u sow...
Grace	Posted - 2007.11.27 06:49:00 - [10] Signed
Buyerr	Posted - 2007.11.27 07:59:00 - [11] Originally by: Princess Xenia Think of these learning skills as an anti-wow filter... A filter to prevent SHORT-SIGHTED people from playing such an insane game: EVE. or think of it as: Most of us have to get an education for a QUARTER of a century... only then to start working and be a 'productive' member of society... was spending such time studying good to yourself??? IMO there is no right or wrong asnwer... U harvest what u sow... soo that's why eve have a max of 100k players with each 2 accounts or what?! to have a wow filter?! are your freaking ******** ?!?! well to the op i think it is a good idea would attract more people which is good for the development and thereby the playerbase
Apocryphai Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.27 08:09:00 - [12] I disagree, but not because I'm a 4 year vet with 2 million SP's in learning, but because I think it's actually better business sense for CCP to keep the learning skills. Learning skills represent a considerable investment in time on the part of players. Once you've spent a month or so training learning skills I think people are more likely to carry on playing (or subscribing at the least) in order for that investment to pay off. CCP have stated that they don't want EVE's numbers to skyrocket for now, they simply don't have the infrastructure to cope with it. They prefer slow, steady growth. Thus it suits them quite well to have learning skills that maybe do put some players off, but add to the chance that the slightly more analytical, determined type of player stick with the game. The "anti-wow" filter is actually pretty true - that's exactly what CCP want - a game composed of fairly hardcore players who have invested into EVE and are thus likely to stay around longer than the average WoW player would. (ps. I'm not being anti-WoW here, I play both WoW and EVE, like many players, they're different games with different roles for me). Originally by: Victor Valka What the skull-chick said.
Overwhelming Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.27 08:22:00 - [13] What about the training time other players have put in. Can I have all that time rolled into carriers 5 or am I just told tough? -not signed Learning is not required...IIRC they made learning much easier to train last year with the first revelations patch. Just more dumbing down of the game that isn't needed.
Stellar Vix State War Academy	Posted - 2007.11.27 08:50:00 - [14] Why not alternatively reward players for training these skills? for example and just examples i made no thoughts into making them up im sure there can be far more appropiate things to be bonused. Intelligence add 1 point of intelligence and 1% bonus to research/copying/manufacturing speeds. Memory add 1 point of memory and 1% bonus to scan strength, scan time, and accuracy. Perception add 1 point of perception and 1% bonus to ship sensor strenght/resolution and locking range Willpower Skills add 1 point of willpower and increases damage of any weapon system by 1% Charisma Skills adds 1 point of charisma and reduces taxes and fines in markets/contracts by 1% per level SWA PVP
Zinras	Posted - 2007.11.27 09:06:00 - [15] How about, you know, NOT maxing all your learning skills right at the beginning of the game? Most of the skills you'll train the first months won't actually benefit much from any learning above 3 or 4, since they're fairly short anyway. Level 3 and 4 in most of the basic skills take at most a few days to train, so that extra point of intelligence only knocks a few hours off in most cases, anyway. So simply adjust your learning skills according to when you need them instead of just maxing them at the beginning if you find it too boring/frustrating.
Reinforcements	Posted - 2007.11.27 09:13:00 - [16] Originally by: Overwhelming What about the training time other players have put in. Can I have all that time rolled into carriers 5 or am I just told tough? -not signed See the part in my post that has %%% preceding it? I marked that section just for you. Please read it. --- "There are to many of them! We are out numbered! We need reinforcements!" "Somebody call my name?"
Reinforcements	Posted - 2007.11.27 09:19:00 - [17] Edited by: Reinforcements on 27/11/2007 09:24:54 Reserved --- "There are to many of them! We are out numbered! We need reinforcements!" "Somebody call my name?"

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2007.11.27 09:21:00 - [18] Edited by: Chribba on 27/11/2007 09:24:06 new pilots learn skills faster than ever before, no reason to boost that even more imo. and with the specialized paths a pilot nowdays almost have to take it doesn't really matter if they train learning or not. but by learning them you will speed up your overall training if you plan to stay longer than 6 months. and tbh I have yet to see someone whine and quit because they "had" to train the learning skills... edit/ also I don't really understand that 24-attribute points argument if you're over 6M SP. I have gained 45 points in total of my learning skills, now I would lose all those and get awarded with 24, basicly I would cut all my "learning points" in half...? Secure 3rd party service ■ the Love project

Fujiko MaXjolt Caldari Templar Republic R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.27 09:22:00 - [19] I like your idea, and I don't. I like the whole feeling of accomplishment you could give less "analytical" players that are used to WoW-type games, and TBH, I for one would LOVE to put my 3-odd mil SP into something else overnight I don't like that it would take away the whole learning-process of figuring out how to optimize your toon with regards to skills and the fact that the learning-skills IMO help people atune to the way the EVE system works. So, on the whole, I have to say no
Synapse Archae Amarr Solarflare Heavy Industries Pure.	Posted - 2007.11.27 09:37:00 - [20] Interesting question. Bad assumptions. Horrible suggested solution. 0 points. More SP is not strictly better. Train some skills that let you play while doing learning skills, so you get experience while players who started in the same week languish. TBH it may not be intended but I'm also of the mind that things like learning skills keep the barriers to entry relatively high, and I like it that way... - - - Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
Wild Rho Amarr GoonFleet	Posted - 2007.11.27 09:39:00 - [21] Originally by: Reinforcements Get rid of all the learning skills. They are not needed. Wipe them out completely. Boom, gone. No more learning skill category. Agreed. Originally by: Reinforcements -add an additional 6 attribute points to all starting attributes on each of the bloodlines. Keeping this level across the races and bloodlines will keep all bloodlines unique from each other and preserve all players original reason (attribute wise) for choosing their specific bloodline. So now, in effect, all characters will start with 60 attribute points instead of 30, yet they will stay uniform in relation to each other. Agreed again except the distribution of the extra attributes should not be too extreme (high charisma characters are already unpopular - irony - enhancing that difference compared to characters that start with even higher favourable attributes just exasperates the problem). Originally by: Reinforcements -allow starting characters to add up to 10 attribute points as he chooses at character creation, instead of only 5. Allow him to add no more than 6 to any one attribute. Disagree. 5 is about right, 10 would increase your starting attributes far too much when combined with the previous change. Originally by: Reinforcements -for every 1m skill points a character gains, allow him to add four additional attribute points. This stops happening when characters reach 6 million skill points. -If needed-, implement a simple system which dissuades players from putting attribute points on the same attribute every single time. Strongly disagreed. This is an over complicated and unnecessary addition. Implants should be the only way to further boost your characters attributes once the character has been created as they cost isk and can be destroyed - cos, risk and reward a core part of Eves gameplay philosophy. Originally by: Reinforcements %%%Do away with the learning skills entirely? But what about the vets who invested months of skill training time into them? Simple. After the patch, lets say a 14 million SP character logs in. He had had 3.2 million skill points in learning skills. As soon as he docks in a station, a box will pop up asking him how he would like to allocate his free 3.2 million skill points, and how he would like to spend his 24 additional attribute points (since he is over 6 million SP he will get all 24 attribute points right away). You're making the assumption this is even possible. It's been hinted now and then that the system does now allow devs/gms to simply give players skillpoints mainly when players were complaining about the loss of them due to clone related mishaps. I could be misinformed though, wouldn't be the first time. The idea in general isn't bad but you take it too far with the 6 months extra attributes. Part of the game is learning to live with consequences and that includes the attributes you give your character at the start. The real issue is certain attributes are simply not being used for universally useful (charisma particularly). If all attributes had roughly equal value within Eve we wouldn't have the same sort of complaints we do right now.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.11.27 10:02:00 - [22] Edited by: Kerfira on 27/11/2007 10:01:57 Don't agree at all! Every time you take something out of a game that's 'hard', you actually lessen the overall enjoyment given by the game! A game is not a 'good' game if it got shiny graphics or is 'easy'. A good game is one that gives a player a sense of having achieved something hard that many other people can't! Thus if you remove attribute training, implement better mining ships, make missions more profitable, prevent can stealing, prevent ninja salvaging etc. etc., you're actually not giving the target players of EVE what they really want, only what they THINK they want. Sure, we've all grumbled about the grind at times, but most of us enjoy EVE because it's HARD! EVE being a hard game is what makes it attractive! It's what makes it feel like an accomplishment when you achieve your goals in the game! Every attempt to 'dumb down' (WoW'ify) the game, like this suggestion, is not a good thing for EVE! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Voculus E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.11.27 10:08:00 - [23] I gotta agree with the OP. Learning skills do nothing to enhance the game, and serve only to waste time. The notion that players will be more vested in this game, after having wasted so much time, is assanine. You keep your customers happy by making their game as enjoyable as possible! On top of it all, training almost any skill takes far too long as it is. Why is the average lifespan in Eve 7 months? Is it because they still can't do anything aside from fly battlecruisers with T1 guns? Naw, couldn't be that! _________________________________________________________
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2007.11.27 10:13:00 - [24] I myself would like to see some balance between the attributes, how about some useful skills for the charisma attribute? Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Reinforcements	Posted - 2007.11.27 10:16:00 - [25] Originally by: Chribba new pilots learn skills faster than ever before, no reason to boost that even more imo. and with the specialized paths a pilot nowdays almost have to take it doesn't really matter if they train learning or not. but by learning them you will speed up your overall training if you plan to stay longer than 6 months. and tbh I have yet to see someone whine and quit because they "had" to train the learning skills... This is not really about giving new players a boost. It is about fixing a perceived forced grind that occurs at the beginning of the game. Yes, it happens to coincide with the same time that people are new, but it is not really about "making things easier for new players" than it is about fixing something that is designed poorly. Before they began giving new players 800k SP at creation, and before they changed adv. learning skill reqs to level 4 of it's counterpart skill, the problem still existed. And it still exists now. Originally by: Chribba edit/ also I don't really understand that 24-attribute points argument if you're over 6M SP. I have gained 45 points in total of my learning skills, now I would lose all those and get awarded with 24, basicly I would cut all my "learning points" in half...? You start the game with more attributes under the proposed system than you currently would now. Then you assign more attribute points as you gain skills naturally by training things like gunnery, spaceship command, and drones. Right now a fully learning skilled character has 93.5 attribute points without implants. If the proposed system was implemented, all characters above 6m SP would naturally have 94 attribute points. --- "There are to many of them! We are out numbered! We need reinforcements!" "Somebody call my name?"
Admiral Nova Strike Team Nova	Posted - 2007.11.27 10:19:00 - [26] New players train 'way' too quickly. I've trained myself many alts since I started, and each one gets faster and faster. TBH they need to bring back the lvl 5 requirement for the advanced learning skills. ducks No really it's about right, you get around to doing them between other things, in a few days you can have enough skills to bring you weeks and weeks of fun while you train the learning skills. We need more so that people don't rush to a battleship in a month and then quit because they haven't yet learnt how to play, and realised that skills aren't everything, and the skills required to sit in a ship are not the ones required to USE it.
Reinforcements	Posted - 2007.11.27 10:35:00 - [27] Originally by: Kerfira Every time you take something out of a game that's 'hard', you actually lessen the overall enjoyment given by the game! A game is not a 'good' game if it got shiny graphics or is 'easy'. A good game is one that gives a player a sense of having achieved something hard that many other people can't! Thus if you remove attribute training, implement better mining ships, make missions more profitable, prevent can stealing, prevent ninja salvaging etc. etc., you're actually not giving the target players of EVE what they really want, only what they THINK they want. Sure, we've all grumbled about the grind at times, but most of us enjoy EVE because it's HARD! EVE being a hard game is what makes it attractive! It's what makes it feel like an accomplishment when you achieve your goals in the game! Every attempt to 'dumb down' (WoW'ify) the game, like this suggestion, is not a good thing for EVE! This is not about dumbing down EVE. I agree with you fully in that making Empire 100% safe, banning scammers, and adding silly shiny things to the game that people THINK they want would only serve to skew the very core of what makes EVE so great. This is about making EVE a more enjoyable experience. You don't have to be some studious, clever person to understand that the sooner you train the learning skills, the more your character will benefit in the long run. Also, the type of patience required to train the learning skills up to 5/4 or even 4/3(still takes a couple weeks) is not the type of patience that should be required to "enjoy" even the most hardcore of games. Think about it. It is HORRIBLE marketing/game design strategy. Period! Imagine opening the box of Starcraft2 when it comes out, only to find that for the first two weeks of playing it you must either do nothing but upgrade your troops OR permanently fall behind everyone who was "patient" enough to do so. Yet, since the learning skills are SO important to train, no one can help but mix them in with actual skills that have a real use to make the game more fun. These people also lose out in efficiency, and while they are training the learning skills you won't find any of them saying "Oh boy! adv willpower 4 will be done in 26 hours! I can't WAIT to gain willpower related skills 2% faster!!!" Open your mind. Things do not have to be how they currently are. There are good design philosophies that clever and patient benefit from, then there are the bad ones that serve no real purpose and only annoy people. --- "There are to many of them! We are out numbered! We need reinforcements!" "Somebody call my name?"
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.11.27 10:43:00 - [28] Ok... I hate it when people come in with wild crazy ideas that benefit them because they're too weak to come in like everyone else and feel they deserve a leg up. This thread doesn't do that! It's well thought out and keeps the differences we all love. I will go ahead and give this a big /SIGNED! Originally by: ISD Valorem The Devs have stated multiple times that they are looking at the Amarr issues. Weekly quote: "Villains always have antidotes... They're funny that way." ~The Tick
joshmorris Ravenous Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.27 10:49:00 - [29] i didnt read it but yeah nerf learning skills there pointless just gives us the attributes Uber idea solves all !!
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Hooligans Of War Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.27 10:52:00 - [30] Originally by: Wild Rho You're making the assumption this is even possible. It's been hinted now and then that the system does now allow devs/gms to simply give players skillpoints mainly when players were complaining about the loss of them due to clone related mishaps. I could be misinformed though, wouldn't be the first time. That is correct, the GMs can't give you a specific number of SPs right now, however they can move you to the next level if the remaining SP to completion is the same as the lost ones.

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