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Trinity: Cloaking and Scanning

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Clinically Gallente Cold-Fury Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.03 00:50:00 - [1] Okay, I give up. Could someone please outline to me the Trinity changes (if any) with regard to being able to scan down cloaked ships. Preferrably, links to Dev comments would be appreciated. I am told that non-cov ops cloaked ships will be scannable, true? What's the mechanics of this? How will it affect Stealth Bombers? I have also heard that there is a POS module on Sisi that prevents cloaking in system a la Cyno Jammers. Anyone got a screenie of the module and any confirmation on the intention (or not) of it making its way to Tranq? Most probably I fail entirely at using the search function but hell I've tried and got no decent results and the patch notes don't seem to include these changes.
John Whorfin	Posted - 2007.12.03 01:41:00 - [2] Yeah. It's true. And to balance it, there's a new low slot module that prevents you from appearing in local. Eve Online: So cut throat that even the officially organized alliance tournaments will screw over players
Lithalnas Amarr Headcrabs	Posted - 2007.12.03 01:48:00 - [3] actually what you see is a place holder database item, nothing more. Concord however can jam you cloak system wide, if you do bad things. ------------- fixed for greater eve content
Del Narveux Dukes of Hazard	Posted - 2007.12.03 02:37:00 - [4] AFAIK there are no changes to cloaking in trinity, but the patch notes are extremely vague on some stuff so its entirely possible that its in there but they forgot to add it to the notes. _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
Minmatar Citizen 4521577	Posted - 2007.12.03 07:56:00 - [5] Not this again....
Steppa Gallente Incognito Inc	Posted - 2007.12.03 08:52:00 - [6] AFK cloakers came very close to making me quit altogether in 2006. The only reason I stuck it out is because some stupid part of me believes that the devs have a solid plan for this rediculous part of the game. Just to remind everyone: 1) cloaking requires almost no power and can be turned on indefinitely. 2) there is no way to find a cloaked ship unless you pass within 2000 meters of it. 3) in contrast to #2, solar systems are multiple AU across. 4) since there is no counter, afk cloakers can sit forever without fear of reprisal.
djenghis jan Amarr Debiloff's Vanguard	Posted - 2007.12.03 08:58:00 - [7] Afk cloakers are not really a problem as far as i am concerned, i would like to know what skills will be needed to probe cloaked ships. What i would love is for local to behave like other channels, you are visible only when you speak....
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2007.12.03 09:04:00 - [8] There's nothing in the patch notes and Trinity was put on a feature hold several weeks ago. As far as I know there's no indication CCP that the mechanics for cloaks will change in any respect - indeed considering the role of Black Ops BS and Covert Cyno Cloaks it seems unlikely there will be any change in the future. C. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
Telschak Gallente The New Order.	Posted - 2007.12.03 10:14:00 - [9] Edited by: Telschak on 03/12/2007 10:14:14 I dont really see the problem with ->AFK<- Cloakers..they are apparently Away From Keyboard and as such does nothing that affect anyone during that that time AFK. They cant kill anyone for sure...
Rawr Cristina Caldari Cult of Rawr	Posted - 2007.12.03 10:25:00 - [10] Originally by: Telschak Edited by: Telschak on 03/12/2007 10:14:14 I dont really see the problem with ->AFK<- Cloakers..they are apparently Away From Keyboard and as such does nothing that affect anyone during that that time AFK. They cant kill anyone for sure... It upsets the sense of security of NPCers/Miners, mainly. Most of the time they arn't actually a threat. -----
eXtas 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.12.03 11:21:00 - [11] I dont se afk cloaking as a big problem, sure it is anoying for ppl that want to carebear in some system, but you can just change system.. more of a problem is cloaked camps, they are just way more powerfull then non-cloaked :) allso cloaking ninja-npc'ers (isk farmers) are anoying but with 20-30s covop you can easyly probe them and when moving solo around its allmost impossible to die with mwd + cloak fitted on any ship.. and I use all of the abow things because they are just so good :P like some days ago I jumped into 30+ ppl with a bs and they had several dictors and rapiers and I still made it past them alive I go ninja explore in ppl's home systems with 100+ local and dont really care because I can just cloak when I spot a probe -------- need new sig :(
Trisha Banks Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.12.03 11:22:00 - [12] Originally by: Telschak Edited by: Telschak on 03/12/2007 10:14:14 I dont really see the problem with ->AFK<- Cloakers..they are apparently Away From Keyboard and as such does nothing that affect anyone during that that time AFK. They cant kill anyone for sure... Well, the problem is they arn't really AFK. A buddy of mine stays cloaked at work with 2 toons in a hostile system while at work. When he has a moment check local, check a few belts. PWN when available, ocasionaly move systems when all empty. If they were truly AFK it would be ok, but theres no way to know, they are basically bypassing local as a form of intel. If you want people bypassing that intel(or just remove local) is a heated debate, that i dont care to delve into. Trisha
Sopha Serpentia Core Dynamics	Posted - 2007.12.03 11:32:00 - [13] Edited by: Sopha Serpentia on 03/12/2007 11:32:24 Originally by: Steppa AFK cloakers came very close to making me quit altogether in 2006. The only reason I stuck it out is because some stupid part of me believes that the devs have a solid plan for this rediculous part of the game. Nobody cares if you quit. Fact: emotion black mail only works on your parents. Cloaks are fine!
Augeas	Posted - 2007.12.03 11:47:00 - [14] People dislike cloakers because they want 0.0 to be not just safer than highsec, but completely safe. Oh, and AFK cloakers are no threat to anyone.
Kayna Eelai Gallente Shadow Legion Covenant Paxton Federation	Posted - 2007.12.03 11:58:00 - [15] you'll probably reply this with the typical "go highsec" or "mission runners make too easy isk anyways" but still, i'll give you my point of view on WHY cloaking as it is right now SUCKS. situation: saturday 01/dec/2007. login just after downtime. system: ziriert 4 hostiles in system. cloaked. i don't dare to do missions, so my alt stays there and i go to do other stuff... after 8 hours, those hostiles are still there. they attack mission runners and then hide cloaked again. they can't be probed out, and just by BEING there for 8 hours, invulnerable, they make a whole system useless for mission runners, as no one dares to do anything after they probed and killed a couple of mission runners. yes, there are ways to protect yourself (aka: doing missions in groups, or just **** off to highsec) against an attack... but having them sitting there for 8 hours totally invulnerable, not knowing if they are afk or not... that's just not fair imho. if they were docked up, you could at least spy on them to see when they undock, but that way... sucks. and yes, i do realize that i'll get gazillions of flame from the cloaking fanboys now, wanting to teach me how to play and how it's my own fault and a crapload of yadda yadda i already heared millions of times. fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)
Ace Garpy Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.03 12:14:00 - [16] Oh great now let's nerf the cloaks! People fail to remember that cloaked ships are not as effective in head to head as a standard combat vessel. I also fail to see what difference a cloaked ship or standard ship sat in a safe-spot makes if you are in low sec? A cloaked ship is invisible for a reason so it cannot be detected. The vessel itself is penalised because it is less effective than a vessel of similar class that cannot use a cloak. Let's make Eve a balanced and even playing field so low sec is as safe as high-sec. Sig removed, maximum allowed image dimensions are 400x120 and maximum allowed size is 24,000 bytes. Please contact [email protected] for more info (including a copy of your picture!) -wystler The Knight said - Oh that is an excellent story of payback, international romance, and James Bondery
Del Narveux Dukes of Hazard	Posted - 2007.12.03 12:17:00 - [17] Originally by: Augeas People dislike cloakers because they want 0.0 to be not just safer than highsec, but completely safe. Oh, and AFK cloakers are no threat to anyone. QFT. And @kayna, what you are describing sounds more like the general problem with lowsec not being worth the trouble, than with cloakers or anything more specific. If they'd been stashed at a pos somewhere, or hopping safespots (which they could do since if theyre killing people, theyre obviously not afk) it wouldnt really have made a difference. _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
eXtas 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.12.03 12:26:00 - [18] Originally by: Ace Garpy Oh great now let's nerf the cloaks! People fail to remember that cloaked ships are not as effective in head to head as a standard combat vessel. I also fail to see what difference a cloaked ship or standard ship sat in a safe-spot makes if you are in low sec? A cloaked ship is invisible for a reason so it cannot be detected. The vessel itself is penalised because it is less effective than a vessel of similar class that cannot use a cloak. Let's make Eve a balanced and even playing field so low sec is as safe as high-sec. the penalty for cloaking ships you are talking about, locking time rarely does much.. but sure its a penalty and makes it harder to takle. but say you got 2 players cloaked, one in recon with only 5s cloaking delay and no drawback on locking time, he gets the takle and the other guy in a cloaked bs does the damage.. for the bs the cloaking penalty dont do anything.. no whining just telling you how it works :) same goes at gates, if you have a scout and se someone jumping, uncloaking bs on other side and the 10-20s claoking delay is over before the guy jumping have loaded system :) not that the claoked ships gets any beter in combat but its just so hard to gank them back its not worth the effort unless you really want them dead -------- need new sig :(
Kumo T'sun Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.03 12:34:00 - [19] I still want to see a anti-cloak ship, something like an anti-sub frigate. The ship has a sonar like pulse which detects movement, (within a set range, ie 20km) move to fast while cloaked and you can be targeted by the anti-cloak ship and then target painted for the rest of the gang/fleet to shoot at. Would be quite tense and fun having an anti-cloak ship pulsing away trying to find you. Das Boot in space.
Kayna Eelai Gallente Shadow Legion Covenant Paxton Federation	Posted - 2007.12.03 12:38:00 - [20] Originally by: Del Narveux And @kayna, what you are describing sounds more like the general problem with lowsec not being worth the trouble, than with cloakers or anything more specific. If they'd been stashed at a pos somewhere, or hopping safespots (which they could do since if theyre killing people, theyre obviously not afk) it wouldnt really have made a difference. well, i have to disagree with one point: if they were using posses or hopping, you would still be able to hunt them down and know where they are. and know they're not just AFK reading a book cloaked at some SS without any risk, "terrorizing" (sorry, can't come up with a better word) a whole system so no1 dares to run missions. and to the guy before your post: 1 ship with a cloak is not a problem. 4 ships all with cloaks are. and let me ask you something: when every1 and his cat is fitting a cloak... even if he's not in a recon or similar... doesn't that tell you something? exactly: it's too good. same happened to carriers and they got hit by the nerf bat... so hopefully the cloak will get the same soon. fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)
Rawr Cristina Caldari Cult of Rawr	Posted - 2007.12.03 12:48:00 - [21] Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 03/12/2007 12:49:48 Originally by: Kayna Eelai 4 hostiles in system. cloaked. i don't dare to do missions, so my alt stays there and i go to do other stuff... It's very easy to do missions when there's cloakers in local. Probes show up on the scanner so you know if someone is trying to find you, and if it's a Deadspace then they'll have to come in the same gate you did. All you have to do is drop a can on the warp-in beacon and move away from it. IF you don't bother to check scanner and they manage to probe you out, then they'll warp in, get decloaked and be out of range, giving you more than enough time to escape. The only thing it really comes down to is you not willing to take any risk whatsoever when doing missions. I did missions for many months in Low-sec of all places. 3Bil ISK later and I was probed down a grand total of once (where they failed to actually kill me) Missions are actually extremely safe from cloakers, unlike if you were to go NPCing or Mining in the belts -----
eXtas 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.12.03 13:00:00 - [22] Originally by: Rawr Cristina Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 03/12/2007 12:49:48 Originally by: Kayna Eelai 4 hostiles in system. cloaked. i don't dare to do missions, so my alt stays there and i go to do other stuff... It's very easy to do missions when there's cloakers in local. Probes show up on the scanner so you know if someone is trying to find you, and if it's a Deadspace then they'll have to come in the same gate you did. All you have to do is drop a can on the warp-in beacon and move away from it. IF you don't bother to check scanner and they manage to probe you out, then they'll warp in, get decloaked and be out of range, giving you more than enough time to escape. The only thing it really comes down to is you not willing to take any risk whatsoever when doing missions. I did missions for many months in Low-sec of all places. 3Bil ISK later and I was probed down a grand total of once (where they failed to actually kill me) Missions are actually extremely safe from cloakers, unlike if you were to go NPCing or Mining in the belts yepp deadspace is damn hard to probe usually.. with a 5au probe u need like 100 scans to get a result so thats like 15-30 min so you should have time notice the probe and run.. if they use racial probes they have max range of 4au... but wont take many scans to get a result tho scan time with them is 3 min or so in a covop so you sould have time to get safe. dont think droping a can at warp-in to decloak ppl works anymore.. because when they made cans, wrecks and corpses not have mass they allso stoped uncloaking stuff -------- need new sig :(
Valron Xizor The Xizor Cartel	Posted - 2007.12.03 13:05:00 - [23] Originally by: Steppa AFK cloakers came very close to making me quit altogether in 2006. The only reason I stuck it out is because some stupid part of me believes that the devs have a solid plan for this rediculous part of the game. Just to remind everyone: 1) cloaking requires almost no power and can be turned on indefinitely. 2) there is no way to find a cloaked ship unless you pass within 2000 meters of it. 3) in contrast to #2, solar systems are multiple AU across. 4) since there is no counter, afk cloakers can sit forever without fear of reprisal. They also cant do anything else and that includes attacking you.
Kayna Eelai Gallente Shadow Legion Covenant Paxton Federation	Posted - 2007.12.03 13:08:00 - [24] Originally by: Rawr Cristina It's very easy to do missions when there's cloakers in local. Probes show up on the scanner so you know if someone is trying to find you, and if it's a Deadspace then they'll have to come in the same gate you did. All you have to do is drop a can on the warp-in beacon and move away from it. IF you don't bother to check scanner and they manage to probe you out, then they'll warp in, get decloaked and be out of range, giving you more than enough time to escape. been there, done that. 1) an average good prober gets results in 30 seconds, warps close for another short range probe and ofc destroys the previous one. either you spam the scan button every 15 seconds (which in missions, against 30 rats is not gonna happen) or you can easily miss the probe 2) done the "can at beacon" trick. still, many missions have the next warpgate right next to the beacon, and it happened to me that i got caught there a couple of times in my missioning career. unlucky? maybe, but still: the can is NOT "the final solution" 3) and ofc fight far from entry beacon. which in a slowass BS is a pain in the ass, but better than losing the ship ofc. what happened to me? that i had my overview filled with rats and didn't see the 2 recons coming. was tackled before i could even react (yeah, i guess that's also my own fault, that my reactions aren't anymore what they were when i was 16 and played street fighter in arcades) and a few seconds later 2 battleships arrived. so... thx for your suggestions, but they're far from a "final solution"... but i wasn't asking for "final solutions" anyways, i was just saying that the cloak as it is now, is too over. sitting there all day long, without being able to be probed out or anything the like, playing "hit&run" whenever you want with zero danger... doesn't sound very "balanced" to me. fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)
Twilight Moon Minmatar Malicious Intentions The Church.	Posted - 2007.12.03 13:10:00 - [25] I just got my Rapier, I want to have some fun with it first. New siggeh required!
eXtas 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.12.03 13:18:00 - [26] Originally by: Twilight Moon I just got my Rapier, I want to have some fun with it first. I think you will have plenty of time :) damn nice ship <3 moving away from jump in bacon wont help if the ppl trying to kill you are using a galiente recon... normal scram range is about 50km and if you got the isk 100km :P only staying aligned and having npc's of overview will save you then -------- need new sig :(
Kayna Eelai Gallente Shadow Legion Covenant Paxton Federation	Posted - 2007.12.03 13:20:00 - [27] Originally by: eXtas only staying aligned and having npc's of overview will save you then correct, but not always... and in missions you might be able to stay alligned... but NPC off the overview? not gonna happen, specially in those missions like angel extravaganza, where certain ships trigger spawns. fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)
eXtas 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.12.03 13:24:00 - [28] well you can jump between overview setings... but if you have 50 npc's on overview there is no way u will notice a player ship in time -------- need new sig :(
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.03 13:27:00 - [29] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 03/12/2007 13:34:02 Originally by: Rawr Cristina It's very easy to do missions when there's cloakers in local. Probes show up on the scanner so you know if someone is trying to find you, and if it's a Deadspace then they'll have to come in the same gate you did. All you have to do is drop a can on the warp-in beacon and move away from it. IF you don't bother to check scanner and they manage to probe you out, then they'll warp in, get decloaked and be out of range, giving you more than enough time to escape. If you want to be the wise one giving suggestion on how to avoid to be ganked by cloakers, try at least to be up to date. The can trick has stopped working some time ago, when the can have become immaterial and incapable of blocking movement. Can don't de-cloak now, it only stop a ship from cloaking if it is within 2000 meters of the can. While I am writhing my ship is at 0 meter from a can I previsiously dropped and perfectly cloaked. If I stop the cloak I can't re-cloak, but that is of little help for a mission runner, as the cloaker will active the cloak after leaving the acceleration gate and be already cloaked when he enter the mission area (this work only for ship using a cover ops cloak, obviously, but no other ship can enter a deadspace area cloaked). Originally by: eXtas well you can jump between overview setings... but if you have 50 npc's on overview there is no way u will notice a player ship in time Ever greater "solutions" now you must spawn scan every 15 seconds and switch overview every 5 to see if someone has warped in. I have lost the upgrade where humans have 2 head and 4 arms.
StarStryder Wise Guys Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.12.03 13:29:00 - [30] The trouble is that while the cloak gives you combat penalties these are more than evened out by the fact that the mission runner is usually engaged with many other ships already. Often his tank is running close to the limit and even if you catch him after clearing an area the tank is still low. Basically he's easy meat. Maybe the NPCs need to breakup and engage new comers to spread the damage out and level the PvP playing field a little. The cloakers will still have an advantage due to the missioners tank. The only problem this idea might cause is that group mission runners using support ships will get screwed. Still, support ship mechanics need an overhaul anyway.

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