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Jukhta Mein
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Posted - 2007.12.04 20:02:00 -
[1]
I was reading another thread on the purchase of ISK via GTCs (http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=649675), and a few people commented that the person in question would never appreciate the game fully because he doesn't know the true value of ISK and hence, the ships and equipment that he buys with it.
I thought about it a while and realised the same kind of thinking can be applied to players utilising multiple accounts. Before we go into that however, lets look at some common examples at how multiple accounts, or alts, are being used:
- mission-runner + salvager - hauler/travelling ship + scout - trader + trader (basically having an alt in another region to check out prices) - capital ship + cyno ship - miner + hauler
All of these examples bring about convenience to their users. On top of that they either increase the rate of flow of ISK for their users or decrease the risks undertaken in the respective activities, as compared to single-account characters who do everything in one window. Now doesn't this undermine both the value of ISK and the value of teamwork in Eve? The value of ISK is undermined because multiple-account users generally earn ISK much faster than single-account users in the same activity, not through ingenuity or innovation but through the virtue of having paid for more accounts. Now if you think that that's all fair - after all, they paid with real-life money for that advantage, didn't they - then I assume you think that there's nothing wrong with buying ISK with money.
Same goes for the value of teamwork. I got attracted to Eve initially by its promise of co-operative play. I was disappointed when I found out that you don't need a hauler to haul for you when you mine - you can create a hauler alt. You don't need a team-mate to scout for you - you can create a covert ops alt. You don't need players to help you run through missions - you can create a few alts and zap through them all by yourself, all the while salvaging by the sidelines.
At the core of things, you don't need to balance income-generation and pvp activities - you can just create an industrialist alt and let him earn isk while you pvp. This undermines both the value of ISK and teamwork.
I'm not saying that people who use multiple accounts don't understand the value of isk and teamwork. I just feel that they would appreciate both values more when they're on a single account, working with other players on their single accounts.
And yes, I do feel a certain unfairness in people using multiple accounts. It's hard to describe or qualify this feeling of unfairness, but it's a similar feeling to when someone is able to afford that carrier simply because he bought isk, as opposed to working hard for it or pooling the isk together with his friends or corpmates. ]
Comments appreciated. In particular I would like to hear the thoughts of other single-account pilots - do you think there's an unfair advantage of multiple-account pilots over you? Would you ever get another account? Why not?
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Armoured C
Gallente Globaltech Industries Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2007.12.04 20:17:00 -
[2]
i got 2 and you should 2 hence the power of 2 offer they tried didnt read past the first line but it probably something to do with magic and elves that WOW has
dont like it go away and PS can i have your stuff and 1st post for thr first time EVER ==) 2 years and first post back :)
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Commander Hansen
UK Corp
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Posted - 2007.12.04 20:22:00 -
[3]
I have 4 accounts and pay with GTC's
Hansen
Here be chocolate |
Erikel
Cosmic Odyssey YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.12.04 20:23:00 -
[4]
Well, alts aren't always paid for with real life money. I have an alt account that a I pay for with GTCs with ISK made by me. Nothing is keeping you from doing the same.
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BranBresil
Caldari Evil Avatar Ltd.
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Posted - 2007.12.04 20:26:00 -
[5]
Edited by: BranBresil on 04/12/2007 20:27:04 Kind of hate to get drawn into as irrelevant a topic as this, CCP will continue to allow multiple accounts, they have to, so the whole point is moot.
What it comes down to, is sure, people with multiple accounts have an advantage in terms of what they can get done solo, however, that doesn't make it unfair.
Everyone has equal opportunity to aquire multiple accounts therefore there is no unfairness involved. If you don't have them you have a different set of priorities and or needs, and the ones with multiple accounts shouldn't be penalized for your desires.
As for buying ISK with money, no there's nothing inherently unfair or wrong about it, it only became wrong once CCP declared it to be.
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Sergeant Spot
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.12.04 20:32:00 -
[6]
I've played 3 on-line games
Mankind for several years, 1999 to 2004. (Space PvP, and you HURT when you lose stuff, but a severely flawed game with way to much hackable stuff client side. also an old game)
Eve sense 2004. Best Player centered pvp game that includes game "depth" available.
WoW for about a year, account expired. (PvE, although you can PvP, PvP is just "weak" compared to Eve. The PvE aspect however is VASTLY superior to Eve)
In ALL cases, you get some serious advantages to being able to log in twice (or more than twice) at the same time.
Play nice while you butcher each other.
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Asestorian
Domination. Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.12.04 20:35:00 -
[7]
As a person who's played with a single account since 2004, but only just started using a second account, I have to disagree; I never felt disadvantaged or like things were unfair because of multiple accounts, and I've known many people with 5 or more. People still need to make some kind of effort with multiple accounts that they don't with the GTCs or ISK buying. And I know for sure that, although my second account is going to make me money, I need to spend money on it too. It will also allow me to experience a part of the game, specifically industry, that I haven't really been able to try before because I was too busy trying to PvP (yes I know I stay docked in empire anyway, damn you all!).
But ultimately it's a little pointless to debate because CCP actively condones it. After all, they have offered the Power of 2 many times before.
---
MOZO
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Condecinte
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Posted - 2007.12.04 20:35:00 -
[8]
I have only one account and I dont want another, not because i think it would be unfair to others but just because I prefer it this way. One account, one identity.
I don't think people with two accounts have an unfair advantage and telling people how many accounts they can and can't have would be even more unfair in the free society we live in.
Unfortunately due to the nature of the game it is often essential to have more than one account. This is because even though Eve is a team game it is unreasonable to expect people to run all over the place for you hauling your stuff and setting up cynos for you or escorting you or whatever else. Hauling is not fun, being the cyno guy is not fun, having to move many many jumps when its getting late and you'd rather be in bed to do these things is even less fun.
I also do not believe they make very much more ISK with 2 accounts. I reckon I could easily pay for another account with gtc's if I wanted to.
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Kirjava
Lothian Quay Industries Zzz
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Posted - 2007.12.04 20:36:00 -
[9]
I have 2 accounts, originaly miner and hauler, it evolved over time. Now selling the second charecter as I don't need her anymore (capship pilot/hauler).
Rate my charecters please - 2M isk for a good review for the first 3 people!! |
Hasak Rain
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.12.04 20:39:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Hasak Rain on 04/12/2007 20:41:27
Originally by: BranBresil Edited by: BranBresil on 04/12/2007 20:27:04 Kind of hate to get drawn into as irrelevant a topic as this, CCP will continue to allow multiple accounts, they have to, so the whole point is moot.
What it comes down to, is sure, people with multiple accounts have an advantage in terms of what they can get done solo, however, that doesn't make it unfair.
Everyone has equal opportunity to aquire multiple accounts therefore there is no unfairness involved. If you don't have them you have a different set of priorities and or needs, and the ones with multiple accounts shouldn't be penalized for your desires.
As for buying ISK with money, no there's nothing inherently unfair or wrong about it, it only became wrong once CCP declared it to be.
It is sort of funny that you should bring up that there is nothing inherently wrong with buying isk because I once brought up that I did that on VN boards {for another game} and the mods jumped all over me for discussing "illegal activities." Truth is, there is nothing illeagal about it at all and some people really need to stop worrying about what others do with their money and get a life. Especially in a game like EvE which encourages such things.
That said, i understand what the OPer was getting at but the idiots such as the second poster in this thread will come in and flame him anyway. He is just asking if buying ships and things and having a second account is robbing the person doing it of their game experiance since they play the game on easymode.
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Dramaticus
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.04 20:39:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Sergeant Spot
WoW for about a year, account expired. (The PvE aspect however is VASTLY superior to Eve)
yeah because getting 20 people together to run a dungeon every 7 days is so much more interesting than previously running complexes every 24 hours or killing rats or doing the same 20 missions over and over and over
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Matalino
Gallente Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2007.12.04 20:39:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Jukhta Mein And yes, I do feel a certain unfairness in people using multiple accounts. It's hard to describe or qualify this feeling of unfairness, but it's a similar feeling to when someone is able to afford that carrier simply because he bought isk, as opposed to working hard for it or pooling the isk together with his friends or corpmates.
This game cannot be fair. Somebody has to lose for another to win. Such is life.
People will use multiple accounts if it helps them win. If/when those accounts lose their profitiablity, they will be cancelled.
There is no point whining about multiple accounts being unfair any more than whining about players who take the time to do anything else to gain an advantage.
If you think that it would give such a vast advantage to have another account then create one yourself. If list any reason for not doing so, then the cost must be too high for you.
It is the same as complaining that replacement ships are too expensive in your local region, and in the same breath saying that a trip to Jita to get a cheaper price isn't worth the hassle, and that you can make more money just paying the markup and getting back to your minng/ratting/mission running.
If it is worth it, then just do it. If it is not worth it for you, doesn't mean that it is not worth while for someone else.
************************** Datacore Harvesting IPO |
Kritch
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Posted - 2007.12.04 20:40:00 -
[13]
If I solo mine someone comes along and empties my can either to take the ore or try and bait me into attacking them so they can get an easy kill. Is it suprising that some miners have a second account for hauling so they don't get griefed by other players when trying to mine solo?
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Dolli Dagger
Caldari Unity of Honor Legion of Honor
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Posted - 2007.12.04 20:41:00 -
[14]
I work hard for my money so I can spend them on a second account. If you decide its not worth it to spend whatever currency you earn, that is your choice. I see no reason why fairness is an issue, as you could spend your hard earned money on a second account if you deemed it worthwhile.
Additionally, EVE is unique in its vast range of occupations, and the level of detailed specialization one can achieve within those occupations. Not only can I become a miner, but I can specialize in the processing of certain ores or advance my character to the peak of mining capabilities - acquiring the best mining ships and the highest grade equipment. But if I want to PvP there is a completely separate skill set I have to learn. As a result, if more than one specialization appeals to me, I would have to divide my character's training among a variety of specialized skills, reducing her overall effectiveness in each area.
Now if I want to have my character do a bit of everything I certainly can, but another player of the exact same skill level and of the exact same age but specialized completely in PvP combat is going to be able to toast my hybrid PvP/Miner.
While it is entirely possible to enjoy almost all of what EVE has to offer with one character, those upper reaches of perfection in a chosen occupation demand you either devote yourself entirely to it and forgo other occupations, or you can pay for a second account.
Since all players have an equal opportunity to have a second account, in that nobody is told they can't create a second account if they have the necessary funds, it becomes a personal choice.
And for me the ability to choose with such freedom is what makes EVE Online such a unique and great experience.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.12.04 20:42:00 -
[15]
I've got 4 accounts and i've never bought as much as a penny. Multiple accounts != ISK. Enjoying the game in multiple ways has only increased my appreciation for ISK.
Originally by: ISD Cortes You're at liberty to use the rolling sig you had, as long as there's no chimeras covering the nether regions of voluptuous females |
Pwett
Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2007.12.04 20:59:00 -
[16]
This argument is inherently flawed.
One Account Scenario: Person a) is rich, he has a top of the line rig and has friend in Aris, so he has a direct line to an internet backbone.
Person b) has a couple year old connection and can only afford 1.5 mbps DSL.
Is this fair? It's all about rl money. Person A) can do more because he suffers from less lag, less desynchs, yuou name it.
Time Scenario Person a) has 3 accounts, but he also has 2 jobs and a family, he only gets to play for an average of an hour a day.
Person b) is a student, he goes to class for 15 hours a week and spends an average of 3 hours on EVE a day.
What's unfair now? _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
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Anwylyd Al'Vos
Minmatar LightSpeed Industries
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Posted - 2007.12.04 21:15:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Pwett This argument is inherently flawed.
One Account Scenario: Person a) is rich, he has a top of the line rig and has friend in Aris, so he has a direct line to an internet backbone.
Person b) has a couple year old connection and can only afford 1.5 mbps DSL.
Is this fair? It's all about rl money. Person A) can do more because he suffers from less lag, less desynchs, yuou name it.
Time Scenario Person a) has 3 accounts, but he also has 2 jobs and a family, he only gets to play for an average of an hour a day.
Person b) is a student, he goes to class for 15 hours a week and spends an average of 3 hours on EVE a day.
What's unfair now?
this
life isn't fair... hasn't eve taught you that yet? _ . - Justice, Mercy, and Faith My soul has horizons further away than those of early mornings, deeper darkness than the night |
SiJira
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Posted - 2007.12.04 21:16:00 -
[18]
i run 82 accounts 60 of them have orders and taxes skills trained and 51 of those pvp in battleships 12 of which gank people in high sec
the remaining 22 run rigged and expanded hulks all day long in empire and 6 of those have refine skills maxed
am i cheating? i pay for 80 of them with isk ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem |
Jolnas Arbiter
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Posted - 2007.12.04 21:18:00 -
[19]
Clearly having friends is overpowered!
Nerf player interaction in eve.
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Fink Angel
Caldari The Merry Men
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Posted - 2007.12.04 21:19:00 -
[20]
I have 1,600 accounts.
800 of them are parked in Jita, and the other 800 I log in on a node that shares the same server whenever a major fleet fight starts.
It's ALL my fault.
Mwahahahahahah.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.12.04 21:23:00 -
[21]
One big difference is that with an alt you have to do the work yourself. So you still appreciate the value of ISK.
As for teamwork, unless you were planning on a 2-man corp and went for a-man-and-his-alt instead, you won't be missing out on much. -
I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes. |
Janu Hull
Caldari Order of Z Industries
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Posted - 2007.12.04 21:33:00 -
[22]
Flexibility is the key. I fly two alts, but there's very little overlap in their skills. Just enough now that the main flies an 8 gunned Rokh and the second flies a Cormorant with four guns two T-beams and a pair of salvagers.
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Rellik B00n
Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2007.12.04 21:39:00 -
[23]
I think someone said further up the thread:
If you put all the available skills into evemon its like 900 years or something stupid to max them all out.
I <3 the range of options available with character skilling but I know from my experiences with this character that you just dont have the time to learn everything.
Also I came to eve knowing nothing about it. I think i typed "Space MMO" into google and found it, saw it had a free trial and just got going. This means my character attributes are total ****.
I like to keep Rellik as a jack of all trades, but as the rest of the saying goes this means he is master of none. Alts give me the opportunity to specialize a well built character into something Rellik cant do that benefits my game as a whole.
And the bottom line is even if you have multiple PCs and monitors to go with your multiple accounts you just try taking them all into combat at the same time :) your going to lose something.
Remixes of EvE tunes:Gallente002 remix |
Khatred
Fluffy Mungoose Guinea Pigs
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Posted - 2007.12.04 21:57:00 -
[24]
It is unfair, yes. And I do have multiple accounts because otherwise it would be impossible for me to manufacture on a large scale. People having more time to play than others it's unfair. People buying isk either by gtcs or otherwise it's unfair. People with more friends at a time than others it's unfair. There are a lot of unfair things both in game and out of it. What makes it really unfair however is that some are labeled as unfair and some are not. But human hiporcrisy will always be amusing, sad and confusing, all at the same time.
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Niccolado Starwalker
Shadow Templars
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Posted - 2007.12.04 22:01:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jukhta Mein
Comments appreciated. In particular I would like to hear the thoughts of other single-account pilots - do you think there's an unfair advantage of multiple-account pilots over you? Would you ever get another account? Why not?
Ofcource its unfair! But so is life!
-Its unfair that someone can afford to have one account, while other cant afford even having one! -Its unfair that my job takes lot of time, so my time with eve is reduced! -Its unfair advantage that someone is better then me in PvP, but you know, I can hate it, but by damn, I cant do anything else then accept it! -Etc!
But this game have never been about fairness, have it? When I played star wars I had 5 accounts. I got Jedi while others could not. That was in the time when jedi Where unique! When jedi where special! And I used those 4 characters to support my one and true: My jedi! It was unfair too that for a while I could play for 17 hours a day!! while others dont! Then people whined, Jedi too hard to get! blah blah blah. and now SWG is dying.
I have 2 accounts in EVE. I wish I had 3, but I almost dont have time to play the two accounts I allraedy have! And that is unfair!
The fact is: Its a game! Play it as you want it, with 1, 2 or 10 accounts. Spend as much time as you want with it, because more time you put into it, more you should be rewarded!
Life aint fair! Get over it.
Sarah McTeef: You all should really try and stay on topic. Which when I last checked, was my grocery list |
Rhatar Khurin
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Posted - 2007.12.04 22:04:00 -
[26]
I fail to see how a miner with a hauler alt is in anyway unfair. Maybe you'll save 20 secs jumping into the hauler at the end of your can session, but that's about it.
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Nicho Void
Hyper-Nova Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2007.12.04 22:13:00 -
[27]
The answer is yes.
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Kritch
Astro Dogs Metastar Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.12.04 22:14:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Rhatar Khurin I fail to see how a miner with a hauler alt is in anyway unfair. Maybe you'll save 20 secs jumping into the hauler at the end of your can session, but that's about it.
More likely you'll avoid you can being flipped and losing a load of ore in the process. --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only thing more dull than mining Ice is hauling it |
Malcanis
High4Life SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.04 22:20:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Jukhta Mein
I thought about it a while and realised the same kind of thinking can be applied to players utilising multiple accounts. Before we go into that however, lets look at some common examples at how multiple accounts, or alts, are being used:
- mission-runner + salvager - hauler/travelling ship + scout - trader + trader (basically having an alt in another region to check out prices) - capital ship + cyno ship - miner + hauler
All of these examples bring about convenience to their users. On top of that they either increase the rate of flow of ISK for their users or decrease the risks undertaken in the respective activities, as compared to single-account characters who do everything in one window. Now doesn't this undermine both the value of ISK and the value of teamwork in Eve? The value of ISK is undermined because multiple-account users generally earn ISK much faster than single-account users in the same activity, not through ingenuity or innovation but through the virtue of having paid for more accounts. Now if you think that that's all fair - after all, they paid with real-life money for that advantage, didn't they - then I assume you think that there's nothing wrong with buying ISK with money.
Same goes for the value of teamwork. I got attracted to Eve initially by its promise of co-operative play. I was disappointed when I found out that you don't need a hauler to haul for you when you mine - you can create a hauler alt. You don't need a team-mate to scout for you - you can create a covert ops alt. You don't need players to help you run through missions - you can create a few alts and zap through them all by yourself, all the while salvaging by the sidelines.
At the core of things, you don't need to balance income-generation and pvp activities - you can just create an industrialist alt and let him earn isk while you pvp. This undermines both the value of ISK and teamwork.
I'm not saying that people who use multiple accounts don't understand the value of isk and teamwork. I just feel that they would appreciate both values more when they're on a single account, working with other players on their single accounts.
And yes, I do feel a certain unfairness in people using multiple accounts. It's hard to describe or qualify this feeling of unfairness, but it's a similar feeling to when someone is able to afford that carrier simply because he bought isk, as opposed to working hard for it or pooling the isk together with his friends or corpmates. ]
Comments appreciated. In particular I would like to hear the thoughts of other single-account pilots - do you think there's an unfair advantage of multiple-account pilots over you? Would you ever get another account? Why not?
I have multiple accounts (3), but I play them. No macroing. I don't buy ISk (or sell it). I don't even use GTC. Have 3 accounts doesn't give you a triple advantage (at least not the way I use them).
Obviously I don't think it's cheating. The fact that I am able to usefully use 2 characters at once is due to the fact that I practiced at doing so. Pretty much anyone can do the same.
Does it give me an advantage? Sure, I guess. Does it give me an advantage that I just pay a little extra money for and don't need to put any effort in for? HELL, NO.
The advantage from having 2 characters is analogous the advantage someone who can play twice as much gets. Is it "fair" that someone who can play 12 hours a day can make 3x as much ISK as someone who is only on for 4? Maybe not, but the 12-hour dude has to actually play those 12 hours to get that 'unfair' advantage. In fact, running multiple accounts is the counterbalance you have vs that 12 hour a day guy. However much ISk he get, he can only accumulate ~2000SP/hr. With 3 accounts you can triple that.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Mallikan
Gallente Spartan Hoplites Rare Faction
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Posted - 2007.12.04 22:30:00 -
[30]
Multiple accounts = YES, OWN. Especially with two monitors. If you don't like it, sorry. --- lol.. I messed up.
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