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Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.07 10:53:00 - [31] Originally by: Plekto Edited by: Plekto on 07/12/2007 02:48:23 Agreed. :) I don't have a problem with the range, the ROF, the damage - none of it. My issue is: Player 1:Stock BS without rigs or high skills and a T1 MWD(not on overload for some reason). 750m/sec(150x5) orbiting you. Player 2:BS with Torpedos. No rigs, not a Raven, but max skills.(ie - you've trained twice as long). Your maximim range is about 9 seconds and 2250 speed. 20,500 range. The problem is that it's so slow that by the time your missile is 5 seconds out, the target has moved 3500m around you(orbiting), so it has to arc towards the target and try to catch up. What you end up with is actually an effective range of about 16km with max skills because of this tracking/catching up. This is nearly half what any other large weapon's efective range is with max skills. T2 heavy torpedos are ever worse. 1650 max speed. Flight time is 9 seconds(IIRC). 14850 total with max skills and no rigs in a typical BS. Engagement range unless it's a stationary target is about 10km though, since the enemy ship is almost half as fast as the torpedo. *note - no weapon in the history of EVE has been a one ship weapon, so "use a Raven" isn't a valid argument and we all know it. The problem is the speed and tracking delay. It says X range but it's so much slower than every other weapon in the game that if the target is moving at all, it's double-nerfed. All of those skills that normally would affect how it hits - velocity, explosion radius, target prediction... don't matter at all if it runs out of fuel. And we're talking a MWD fitted BS. Versus anything faster, it's not hitting at all unless it closes to small weapon range. You know, instead of typing up complicated theories, you could just go test it. Had you actually flown the torp raven with near max skills, you will know it has no problems hitting an orbitting ship with less than 1.5km-2km/s speed. No bs will orbit faster than that, not in a combat effective setup anyways(IE, not bump machs).
Zoe Rebekah	Posted - 2007.12.07 11:20:00 - [32] Edited by: Zoe Rebekah on 07/12/2007 11:25:27 Well its taken me 18 months and heaps of hard work to get a rattlesnake with the 50% missle speed bonuses....now I reckon I wont be able to sell it for scrap! with the bonus on speed missles fly out to around 37 kms and still wont even scratch the paint of NPC BS's. It's s stupid bloody change CCP - My 1 billion isk ship is now no better in close combat than a newb frigate - Dev guys, do I cop this and go through the whole process again to train another race - I doubt it!! wake up and smell the subscription fees walking out your door! Oh and the thing that really gets me angry is that the damn NPC BS's that I cant damage with torps can kick my butt with their torps........ isn't this just so stupid?
skychyld	Posted - 2007.12.07 11:36:00 - [33] I'm not trying to "bait" anyone, whatever that is, I was just making a truthful statement. I could run any lvl 4 with my CNR, now my officer sieges are worthless. And I doubt I'll be able to sell them to buy officer cruise launchers. They've turned one of the best mission running ships, (if not the best), into one that might still be able to do something. It'll be some time before I know if it can. And I'm not a troll, whatever that is.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.07 12:09:00 - [34] Originally by: skychyld I'm not trying to "bait" anyone, whatever that is, I was just making a truthful statement. I could run any lvl 4 with my CNR, now my officer sieges are worthless. And I doubt I'll be able to sell them to buy officer cruise launchers. They've turned one of the best mission running ships, (if not the best), into one that might still be able to do something. It'll be some time before I know if it can. And I'm not a troll, whatever that is. And my talisman set was rendered 100% useless with the nos nerf, at least pvpers with lots of isk(there are those, see all the ppl flying vindis) will buy the officer seiges, which will absolutely wtfpwn in pvp. In other words, cry more please.
Trigos Trilobi Man-Eating Village Idiots	Posted - 2007.12.07 12:24:00 - [35] Originally by: skychyld I'm not trying to "bait" anyone, whatever that is, I was just making a truthful statement. I could run any lvl 4 with my CNR, now my officer sieges are worthless. And I doubt I'll be able to sell them to buy officer cruise launchers. They've turned one of the best mission running ships, (if not the best), into one that might still be able to do something. It'll be some time before I know if it can. And I'm not a troll, whatever that is. Even the non navy torp raven was leaps ahead of any other bs' for doing missions pre-patch, nevermind the CNR. Now, since cruises weren't tuned in any way this patch, and some people actually claimed that cruises were just as fast or insignificantly slower for l4s, "might still be able to do something." sounds like a load of bovine manure. I find it increasingly amusing that all you raven missioners have the nerve to complain about the 'nerf' while raven with cruises is most probably even still the undisputed king of mission ships. The nerf was long overdue. Try missioning in a turret ship for a change and then consider wether you have any reason to whine.
Punker Adagear Hades Domain Edge Of Sanity	Posted - 2007.12.07 12:34:00 - [36] you have to admit tho, while the dmg bomus has made the torp a good aspect in pvp. When a player is ratting, missioning, plex running then all you get is the Bs spawns flying away from you and unless you scarific part of your tank and cap you can hit jack with them, pve players say nerf and pvp says its a buff either way, pve are most likly to be in a longer fight then pvpers. ================================================
Svizac Marmotov Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.07 14:01:00 - [37] All this whining mostly because many people can't think a fitting for themselves but can only copy it from forums and fansites. Try thinking and make your own fitting. Torps range to short? Try using cruise missiles. And no you dont need to sell your officer/faction siege launchers, torps aren't useles for missions, they can still be great for certain situations(like those 2,5M bosses with hell of a tank). If I can use my blasters with about 15km top usefull range(optimal+fallof) then sure as hell you can use your torps at over 20km. Guess what? Heavy missiles work nicely too. I know plenty of ppl doing lvl 4 mission with a Drake. Even I use drake for some mission(sansha/drones). Adapt ppl, adapt... --------------------------- Death solves all problems, No man,no problem!
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.07 14:08:00 - [38] Edited by: Gamesguy on 07/12/2007 14:07:59 Originally by: Svizac Marmotov All this whining mostly because many people can't think a fitting for themselves but can only copy it from forums and fansites. Try thinking and make your own fitting. Torps range to short? Try using cruise missiles. And no you dont need to sell your officer/faction siege launchers, torps aren't useles for missions, they can still be great for certain situations(like those 2,5M bosses with hell of a tank). If I can use my blasters with about 15km top usefull range(optimal+fallof) then sure as hell you can use your torps at over 20km. Guess what? Heavy missiles work nicely too. I know plenty of ppl doing lvl 4 mission with a Drake. Even I use drake for some mission(sansha/drones). Adapt ppl, adapt... You don't understand. The people that are whining are those hardcore mission runners who do nothing but grind missions day in and day out and their "accomplishment" at the end is this shiny 5 billion isk officer fitted CNR. THAT is why they're whining. They KNOW that every other BS has it worse in PvE, they KNOW torps were imbalanced(useless for pvp, uber for pve), they just dont like having their toy changed. Thats what all the whining is all about. Your average mission runner or ratter with a t2 fit will simply change to cruise or javelin torps with very little reduction in isk/hour, too bad officer torp launchers cant fit javelin...
Kel'Tor	Posted - 2007.12.07 16:11:00 - [39] Hy, I was using torps and t2 torps to do missions, lvl 4 quality 20 agents. ....now I can't mission with my raven because most ships run away from me. Raven is not a ship for PvP, close range the raven is useless and I do think most ppl use ravens only for missioning. This modification hurts raven most and mission runners cause there is no other ship able to carry a good arsenal of torpedoes. Therefor the new torps are REAL CRAP even the t2 "long range torps" go for max 42km. My only regret is that I trained nearely 2months in torpedoes and now I can't use them for anything... not now not ever in near future... junk skill points now!!
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.07 16:15:00 - [40] Originally by: Kel'Tor Hy, Raven is not a ship for PvP, close range the raven is useless and I do think most ppl use ravens only for missioning. Please explain this fascinating statement. Include a reference as to why I've trained torps V specificaly for Trinity.
Sleepkevert Rionnag Alba	Posted - 2007.12.07 16:16:00 - [41] Originally by: Kel'Tor Hy, I was using torps and t2 torps to do missions, lvl 4 quality 20 agents. ....now I can't mission with my raven because most ships run away from me. Raven is not a ship for PvP, close range the raven is useless and I do think most ppl use ravens only for missioning. This modification hurts raven most and mission runners cause there is no other ship able to carry a good arsenal of torpedoes. Therefor the new torps are REAL CRAP even the t2 "long range torps" go for max 42km. My only regret is that I trained nearely 2months in torpedoes and now I can't use them for anything... not now not ever in near future... junk skill points now!! Hmmm, would you like some cheese with your whine? Seriously, long range = cruise, short range = torp... Just like long range = heavy missiles, and short range = HAM And, just like long range = standard missile, and short range = rockets... _______ Sign my sig!
Kel'Tor	Posted - 2007.12.07 16:16:00 - [42] Originally by: Svizac Marmotov All this whining mostly because many people can't think a fitting for themselves but can only copy it from forums and fansites. Try thinking and make your own fitting. Torps range to short? Try using cruise missiles. And no you dont need to sell your officer/faction siege launchers, torps aren't useles for missions, they can still be great for certain situations(like those 2,5M bosses with hell of a tank). If I can use my blasters with about 15km top usefull range(optimal+fallof) then sure as hell you can use your torps at over 20km. Guess what? Heavy missiles work nicely too. I know plenty of ppl doing lvl 4 mission with a Drake. Even I use drake for some mission(sansha/drones). Adapt ppl, adapt... I do not pay for a game so I can adapt how they change it... I buy what I see and I don't like how they changed torps, so my money for sp training were lost.... Do not talk or think if u not regulary using torps. I am specialized in torps and now I can barely do a lvl 2 mission with my raven....(ships keep 43km range - more than a t2 torp can reach) ...
Kel'Tor	Posted - 2007.12.07 16:19:00 - [43] Originally by: Sleepkevert Originally by: Kel'Tor Hy, I was using torps and t2 torps to do missions, lvl 4 quality 20 agents. ....now I can't mission with my raven because most ships run away from me. Raven is not a ship for PvP, close range the raven is useless and I do think most ppl use ravens only for missioning. This modification hurts raven most and mission runners cause there is no other ship able to carry a good arsenal of torpedoes. Therefor the new torps are REAL CRAP even the t2 "long range torps" go for max 42km. My only regret is that I trained nearely 2months in torpedoes and now I can't use them for anything... not now not ever in near future... junk skill points now!! Hmmm, would you like some cheese with your whine? Seriously, long range = cruise, short range = torp... Just like long range = heavy missiles, and short range = HAM And, just like long range = standard missile, and short range = rockets... you talk out of a book who said long range cruise short range torps? you??????? why? Missiles = Long Range! Make citadel torps 10km range they are torps!!!!
MirrorGod Heretic Army The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.07 16:23:00 - [44] OHNOES MY NPC PWNMOBILE IS NURFED!!! PANZIC, PANZIC!!! Noone cares. Use cruise missiles. PvP: Torpedos are, and always should have been, the heavy assault missile's for battleships. Close range, extreme damage. Your BS isn't supposed to be a solopwnmobile, have a buddy with a web and you'll be dealing insane damage. Stop complaining
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.07 16:26:00 - [45] Originally by: Kel'Tor Originally by: Sleepkevert Originally by: Kel'Tor Hy, I was using torps and t2 torps to do missions, lvl 4 quality 20 agents. ....now I can't mission with my raven because most ships run away from me. Raven is not a ship for PvP, close range the raven is useless and I do think most ppl use ravens only for missioning. This modification hurts raven most and mission runners cause there is no other ship able to carry a good arsenal of torpedoes. Therefor the new torps are REAL CRAP even the t2 "long range torps" go for max 42km. My only regret is that I trained nearely 2months in torpedoes and now I can't use them for anything... not now not ever in near future... junk skill points now!! Hmmm, would you like some cheese with your whine? Seriously, long range = cruise, short range = torp... Just like long range = heavy missiles, and short range = HAM And, just like long range = standard missile, and short range = rockets... you talk out of a book who said long range cruise short range torps? you??????? why? Missiles = Long Range! Make citadel torps 10km range they are torps!!!! Yes the raven is still a bit useless for solo PvP... However in small gangs/gate camps its an awesome ship, use it alongside a rapier/huginn and its going to smash down on targets HARD. Then again that requires friends. Anyway it's Cruise = Long range and Torps = Short range because CCP made it so --------------------------------- Oh noes!
Kel'Tor	Posted - 2007.12.07 16:35:00 - [46] I don't like this change and if they don't transfer my sp from Torpedoes (who were great now useless) to cruise missiles I am gonna quit.
John Blackthorn Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.07 16:41:00 - [47] The torp change sound fine when people say were making a short range high damage weapon that is basicly an extention of the heavy assult missles. High dmg, hig dps, short range. Comments in this forum say it's a pvp pawn mobile but it's not, not even close. Thers to many counters to using torps and there just rarely going to be used for anything now. For missions you can't get in range (no mwd) but the npc's can hit you just fine. For pvp you are countered by fast moving ships, small ships, smart bombs, defenders, and well. range.. I havn't figured out how you guys are getting 27km out of your torp range yet. I have all level 5 torp skills and level 5 caldari b.s. and my range is 20km. Not rigged.
Balaurah	Posted - 2007.12.07 17:05:00 - [48] Bloody hell, have people never seen a game change before? yes torps are shorter range. yes this was anounced about a month ago. they do higher dps. If you really think 30km is short range for lvl 4 missions etc, christ, never spend any points in gunnery. FYI, do i do lvl 4 missions fine in an absolution with pulses. 15km optimal. oh, and mandatory can i have your stuff to the person leaving when they realise ccp will never switch your skillpoints from anything to anything.
Kel'Tor	Posted - 2007.12.07 17:35:00 - [49] Originally by: Balaurah Bloody hell, have people never seen a game change before? yes torps are shorter range. yes this was anounced about a month ago. they do higher dps. If you really think 30km is short range for lvl 4 missions etc, christ, never spend any points in gunnery. FYI, do i do lvl 4 missions fine in an absolution with pulses. 15km optimal. oh, and mandatory can i have your stuff to the person leaving when they realise ccp will never switch your skillpoints from anything to anything. no you cannot tell me how u expect to shield tank a lvl 4 mission where enemies inflict EM/Therm short ranged? it's pure insanity
Trigos Trilobi Man-Eating Village Idiots	Posted - 2007.12.07 17:50:00 - [50] Originally by: Kel'Tor tell me how u expect to shield tank a lvl 4 mission where enemies inflict EM/Therm short ranged? it's pure insanity If you can't deal with the damage at short range, then you fit with cruises for less dps and more range, pretty simple and not unlike the choices a turret ship has. I think this particular nerf/buff was really clever, it swat two flies with one swift swing of the bat. Brought the caldari pve ability slightly (and I mean slightly, everyone crying ravens are useless for pve now needs to quit sniffing glue asap) closer to what the other races have, while also giving them bit more pvp ability. And I suppose every typhoon owner with pvp aspirations loves this too :P
TRYPTIC The Flaming Sideburn's Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2007.12.07 18:28:00 - [51] What most of these whiners are complaining about is that they got lazy -- lvl 4 mission, warp into deadspace, move off to 70 plus KM and launch torps. IWIN button Now they gotta think a little more. What a bummer.Develop your short-range PvE skills, kids. Bring a friend...whatever. Get over it!
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.07 18:43:00 - [52] Oh look. Another torps whine thread. OK. I am a raven pilot. I’ve got useful amounts of SPs in missiles. About 10mil last I checked. I even have Caldari BS 5. And I fly Ravens. Quite a lot actually. And I DO MISSIONS in them. Oh yes. So here is my opinion of this torp change. IT IS AWESOME. Cruise missiles have always been VERY handy mission running weapons. Bit less damage to the BS, but WAY MORE against anything smaller, with an explosion radius of 225. All along, Torps and Cruise were just a bit samey. They both went ‘far enough’ and they both did ‘useful enough’ damage. So the reasons to choose were based on expected target size, and fittings. All along though, if I brought my Raven out to play for PvPing, I was a sad little boy, and told that the best I could do is fit some remote (armour) reps and ewar, and watch the big boys play, whilst I bimble around with a 250dps ship, and a mediocre armour tank, pretending to be useful to my gangmates. No more. Now I have a ship that people are HAPPY to have along in gangs. It does good damage (or maybe ‘WTF where’d my ship go’ damage) in the optimal PVP engagement range of ‘up to warp disruptor II range’. They’re now a short range weapon, with short range DPS. Cruises are the long range weapon, with long range dps. This is a superb change. 1000dps in a Raven is awesome. The _only_ reason I’m worried about this change, is that it’ll be TOO awesome, and up for nerfbatting next patch. Torps are less superb for missions. So now you get to choose short range fit + speed mod, or long range fit with lower DPS. LIKE EVERY OTHER BS OUT THERE. Or just buy a drake or nighthawk or something. But seriously, this change is just superb, verging on overpowered. (I’ll give a verdict on that latter once I’ve had a chance to field test the Raven a bit) -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Kel'Tor	Posted - 2007.12.07 19:18:00 - [53] I'd strongly suggest not use torps against HAC's LOL. 1 or 2 seconds in the flight time of Javelin torpedoes would be awsome or a 3500m/s flight speed. A javelin (t2 torp) is worse than a standard cruise missile against a bs. I moved to gallente space where most ships are close combat, lol.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.07 21:35:00 - [54] Originally by: Kel'Tor I don't like this change and if they don't transfer my sp from Torpedoes (who were great now useless) to cruise missiles I am gonna quit. Good bye!
Mr Fubar Minmatar VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.12.07 21:41:00 - [55] Originally by: Hannobaal No. It has nothing to do with them. The change was done to make torpedos a viable weapon system in pvp combat. For goodness sake peopel. Check your new rate of fire on your launchers. This is a massive boost for torp Ravens. "The change was done to make torpedos a viable weapon system in pvp combat" "The change was done to make torpedos a viable weapon system in pvp combat" "The change was done to make torpedos a viable weapon system in pvp combat" Okay exactly what I am asking for where is the Dev Post/Blog/Patch note where they said all this? I would like to read it myself to better understand the changes. Not a bunch he/she said bla bla...from a non dev/GM/CCP type. So for goodness sakes people post this info from the sourse. Something tells me there never was and this is a ninja add to hurt gold farmers. Cause if it was "Ballance" there would be a post/log/blog/pc of TP somewhere with the info scratched on it. "We got this great idea on how to make torp boats better in Pvp!!!!" Thats the one I wasnt to read. =========================== Mr Fubar
Buyerr	Posted - 2007.12.07 22:35:00 - [56] i made this: a calculation and balance
Jessica Molla	Posted - 2007.12.07 23:27:00 - [57] What can i say to the whiners? You are such a LOSERSi am reading these posts and i cant stop laughing...adapt or die...you got uber PVP weapon in your hand and you are still not satisfied... you dont like it because now you cant do missions so efficiently? it serves you right, as fas as i know, i dont do missions in a blaster megathron but i use railguns which do much less damage, you use cruise missiles...whats the problem? torp raven now does insane damage, take advantage of it...and do not ******* whine, ok?
Magazaki	Posted - 2007.12.09 03:27:00 - [58] Edited by: Magazaki on 09/12/2007 03:27:43 Protip: Torps got ~~nerf~~ buff now. But guess what? Cruises hit just as nice as ever. Oh, and I forgot to mention... A few patches ago, FACTION cruises were introduced, they work surprisingly well for missions. I always used torps, but honestly, since since blastermegas don't run missions, I see no reason torpravens should. I prefer it a lot that torpravens can go toe to toe with blastermegas in real eve... (*hugs his raven, goes to resume missile training...) -----sig----- Originally by:* Kaemonn:Signature Originally by: kieron: off duty You dont have to swallow! Win...
Jonathan Pryde Caldari eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.09 07:10:00 - [59] Originally by: skychyld I'm not trying to "bait" anyone, whatever that is, I was just making a truthful statement. I could run any lvl 4 with my CNR, now my officer sieges are worthless. And I doubt I'll be able to sell them to buy officer cruise launchers. They've turned one of the best mission running ships, (if not the best), into one that might still be able to do something. It'll be some time before I know if it can. And I'm not a troll, whatever that is. I mission ****d in a Raven for the longest time and I can tell you this RIGHT FREAKING NOW... Torpedo Ravens are NOT the best thing to use. Skill up your Cruise missiles to 5 and you'll be good to go. yes, it'll take a little longer but it is so freaking worth it both ISK wise and trouble wise. Torps couldn't hit anything smaller than a cruiser with decent damage. Frigates? Forget it. You'll spend 2x the ammount of torps on a frig than you would a fully fitted BS, so quit ****ing. I had to drop my siege launchers on my torp raven in favor of cruise missiles for a reason.. if I'm going for range, you GOTTA use the fastest missile to cover that distance. A Torpedo is just slow, bluky and frankly stupid tool. Jonathan Pryde eXceed, Inc
Growler Khalast Gallente Dawn of Fire Te-Ka	Posted - 2007.12.09 07:33:00 - [60] Raven Torpedo Pilots are really getting it now. YAY! Blasters vs Torpedeos. Your lucky they didn't go further. ---=---=--- "Only two things are infinte - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not so sure about the universe."

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