It's certainly interesting to see something like this at such an early stage of a conflict, even if I'm not particularly sure that it's worth announcing. Re-confirming your core ideals to the capsuleer masses is usually reserved for such a time when you have no more fight to give, and that's not something I can say I've seen as yet.

It seems a bit odd to be scrabbling to reclaim some element of favour with those that you have raised the ire of, especially in such a public setting, but I suppose you are doing what you think is best for your alliance in order to keep it alive. Might be in your best interests to keep Capt. Devil from sounding off again though if you wish to succeed; boring people to death with disgustingly generic patriotism probably isn't good for business in the long run.

I was going rattle of some award earning speech about how Eyob is doing things wrong and how he could improve on his situation without having to keep his merry band of capsuleers under the wing of others, but then it struck me. It doesn't matter. I really don't need to push the point, because at the end of the day no matter what Obsidian Front stands for and no matter what they claim that they want to do to assist the Minmatar Republic in their struggle against slavery, the core premise is laced with hypocrisy.

Evidently half of them don't give a **** no matter what is said. They are still dropping capitals on starbases and attempting to tear them down illegally. They are still pirating in the Aeman constellation and beyond. Hell, I bet their members would be working with agents in the Empire if they lived closer.

It all comes together to form a beautiful picture when you look at it through Eyob's rose tinted glasses, but when you look from the outside you see a group of people who claim to stamping down on one thing, yet are continuing to do what they have done for however long, ensuring that nothing is going to progress to a "more peaceful" stage.

Why don't we let Eyob come out from under your wing Jade. Let him stand up and defend himself. We both know he's got the balls, even if they are fortified by alcohol.

Amantus is a bad

[quote=Sofia Roseburn]I guess its "possible" that Electus might hire NBSI mercs to fight their wars for them in lowsec but I have say I find it very very unlikely and truly not their style.

Just putting my .02 isks worth in here. To my knowledge while I have been a member EM has never hired mercs. Why hire a dog when you can bite people yourselves.

And on the subject of Mercs. God Squad have decced EM. Which is cool. More blinky reds to shoot at is fine with me. But a bit strange that citizen Eyob talks of peace but also hires mercenaries to attack us. I'm sure he will deny that they're on his dime. Because you know that's just what he does.

I would be extremely surprised if Ynot hired Godsquad against anyone Johan. Having experienced the fiasco of Godsquad on our joint coms during a deployment against Fearless I think nobody would be impressed by their competance. In any event Godsquad are also wardecced against Star Fraction and if you guys ever need help blowing the heck out of them let us know!

Bottom line godsquad are attention seeking asshats and nobody really needs to put too much thought into their motivations.

You mean like when Ynot hired godsquad against us?

I honestly wouldn't put such treachery beyond him.

It was less than a week ago when he contacted godsquad and paid them to cease their dec with his alliance and to dec us. However I see your point Jade, that whole deal ended terribly for you guys. However Ynot does not seem to be one who learns from his mistakes, banging his head against a wall seems to be his special talent.

I suggest you step gently back away from the bong and dial down the hyperbole mr O'Donell. Lets not confuse the alleged act of hiring one mercenary group to fight another mercenary group with something called "treachery". You can certainly say you wouldn't find that beyond him, but describing an interaction with mercs (however useless they are) as "treacherous" is just silly.

The treacherous part that I was talking about was hiring mercs against Electus Matari whilst at the same time claiming to be a Matari loyalist. If that is not treacherous or backstabbing then I don't know what is. On the other hand perhaps Ynot suffers from multiple personality disorder, which if that is the case then it would explain alot about interactions with him.

"...step gently back away from the bong and dial down the hyperbole..."

The treacherous part that I was talking about was hiring mercs against Electus Matari whilst at the same time claiming to be a Matari loyalist. If that is not treacherous or backstabbing then I don't know what is. On the other hand perhaps Ynot suffers from multiple personality disorder, which if that is the case then it would explain alot about interactions with him.

A friendly critique. It sounds like your alliance really needs intelligence and diplomacy departments, and to have them operate out of the limelight of the forums.

We condemn and deny any claim of the Amarrian Empire. We stand with the Matari people. We support the military endeavours of the Tribal Liberation Front. We have many blue allies in its number and we count UshraGÇÖkhan amongst our good friends.

The tribe and other Minmatar militia corps have OF set red for acts of piracy against civilians and militia members.

So we have been assisting EM with dealing with known pirates.

During the defence of a EM POCO in Auner a fleet of 53 which included OF, Eve-union and Cloud 7 Nebulosa attacked the EM and allies defence fleet, So these alliances are now marked as helping known pirates.

All this talk is just talk and as Christine Peeveepeeski said the actions of OF must be the proof that they have changed their ways and now fight for the Republic and its citizens and not agaisnt it.

The tribe and other Minmatar militia corps have OF set red for acts of piracy against civilians and militia members. So we have been assisting EM with dealing with known pirates. During the defence of a EM POCO in Auner a fleet of 53 which included OF, Eve-union and Cloud 7 Nebulosa attacked the EM and allies defence fleet, So these alliances are now marked as helping known pirates.

I do not see any difference with your example of "cargo raider" and our experience of OF.

If they have changed then it is welcomed, But i think we need more than just a IGS statement to believe them.

I think this whole mess needs a cooling off period of agreed none aggression for a set amount of time.

Then new standings need to be set as the waters have become muddied.

I suggest a resetting to neutral all round so if we are all NRDS no one is getting shot anymore.

But I can only speak for the tribe.

Far more likely in my eyes that the mercs (yourself included) are working for other NBSI enclosurist elements in the general area. In particular the Rancer pirates (United/neg ten) were boasting about bringing in "friends" to do their work for them so maybe there is meaning there? Who knows really.

A COA fleet engaged and destroyed seven Negative Ten BS and a Loki in Mirotem yesterday, we also forced them to self destruct a triaged Archon.

Fearless came to the field late, but they also dropped their own capitals on the Negative 10 Archon, there was some dialogue in local from Negative Ten to Fearless which was neither friendly or respectful, this would seem to put pay to your theory that they are working together, or employer and employee.

I greet Ynot's announcement with cautious optimism, I would rather not spend my time or my security status shooting The Obsidian Front's ships and structures, there are corporations and alliances who I would much rather be shooting at instead.

Pilot Constantine I must ask why you're sullying yourself with such a vigorous defense of a bunch of common lying pirates?

To me this all sounds oddly like some kind of deathbed conversion. The Front is about to be ground into dust and they know it. This seems like a desperate, last-ditch effort to save themselves from the retribution they've so richly earned after months of criminal activity within the Republic.

I doubt that many here are fooled by this "new" Obsidian Front charade. It's all a bunch of flowery words. It's smoke and mirrors, a poorly written play full of sound and fury ultimately signifying nothing. No one will cry when this piratical group is sent to hell where they belong.

The Obsidian Front fell into that latter catagory. Pirates that don't like to think of themselves as pirates but just randomly waylay passers by for fun. I guess you could claim that they weren't pirates and were just muggers? We still set them red for that in any case.

Is anyone actually criticising your decision to set people red for shooting your ships? I don't think so. And I don't think that is what this thread is about. The question is are you prepared to respond to a progressive change of ROE in an encouraging manner now it has been made public?

Oh that. Well I have to say I don't buy it. More of their usual attempts to sleaze their way off our red list.

It is understandable given the history of hostilities between EM, COA and FRONT there will be some people with strong views held about the respective personalities, corporations or alliances on all sides, you can't fight each other as often as we have without at least a few people developing hostile or sceptical opinions.

As Amun mentioned earlier this matter is probably best left to private discussions between the respective diplomats. I'm sure all parties will have the opportunity to put forward their views during their internal discussions of this announcement, in the mean time I would suggest that everyone avoids comments which could prejudice the diplomatic process.

It is understandable given the history of hostilities between EM, COA and FRONT there will be some people with strong views held about the respective personalities, corporations or alliances on all sides, you can't fight each other as often as we have without at least a few people developing hostile or sceptical opinions.

As Amun mentioned earlier this matter is probably best left to private discussions between the respective diplomats. I'm sure all parties will have the opportunity to put forward their views during their internal discussions of this announcement, in the mean time I would suggest that everyone avoids comments which could prejudice the diplomatic process.

But in closing I'd suggest you avoid "sleazy" as a descriptor in diplomatic negotiations in the future. Its not really very ... well ... diplomatic.

SF, I appreciate what you guys are trying to do ( encourage NBSI corps to turn NRDS, and make sure all old enemies make a good effort to change their standing orders ). It's one of the noblest causes in New Eden.

But this one I wouldn't poke with a 100 meters breacher antenna. The real problem here lies in that Ynot has used the diplomatic card so many times in the past I can only imagine the face of EM diplomats when they read this (11th ? 12th ?) try at making it look like they are turning around.

What the obsidian front needs is a drastic change in leadership, not an announcement from its current ( yes, sleazy is exactly the right word ) leader on IGS.

I've seen EM heartily change its standings so many times on NBSI->NRDS promises, and they still do it with optimism for most groups that contact them. It's just... this one is special.

Hey but who knows, I wouldn't be surprised if EM tries yet another time if Ynob actually contacts their diplomats in a private setting. They and the COA are doing pretty good right now in MH, Heim and Metro, so they have some breathing room for predictable failures.

It has come to my attention something is deeply concerning. EM, who I congatulate in joining up with Faction warfar, has also made Fearless, a known criminal and mercenary alliance blue.


http://www.electusmatari.com/standings/rc/

Fearless (who we are at war with in full discosure), are known for ganking neutral industrials in low sec who are simply attempting to use custom offices.

Consider this Killmail this week as proof.


I do know who BoB is and even though he has a positive sec status and is in the Federal Navy Accadamy and only started playing this game 2 weeks ago, was flying and industrail without any guns, apparently, there was some justification.

I say this cause, because of EM's definition of crimes, this would be considered piracy. As EM set fearless to blue, it must have a good explaination.

This is just one murder of many of by Fearless in the last few weeks of industrials and neutrals.

If Obsidian Front is being held to the standard that we can't reform and can't be trusted, how can a alliance, who has in the description that they are mercenaries be blue. Another crime per EM is unprovoked wars. Mercenaries, by definition make war for profit, not provokation. As they are currently criminals in the regard that they murder new pilots in industrails and make war per profit, I am VERY confused on their recent blue status?

Anyone care to explain?

The bigger issue here for me though is that FEARLESS as an organization is attacking low-tax Customs Offices in Matari lowsec and replacing them with 100% tax offices.

Just checked the ones in Miroitem. They say 5%. Maybe they have set a 100% tax for their reds.

Let's take a look at what you've said.Planetary customs offices with 100% tax.
They've been mentioned, but aren't actually in existence. I honestly don't know whether they will come into effect, but we're dealing with facts, not what might come to pass.

FEARLESS are a self declared NBSI entity who will shoot whoever they please.
Probably. Then again, morals sometimes have to bend when it comes to getting a job done. Associating with people with a lack of said morals doesn't really detract from the sincerity of anyone's cause; it just means they acknowledge that there may be another way.

As an aside, I resent you calling me a pirate, and think you should apologize.

Well I have taken your alliance members comments in local to be factual. If you are now telling me they were simply lying in local then so be it. But I imagine that means any future commetary from your alliance should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Again I simply reference the statement from your own leadership in response to a question I asked directly. I don't think anybody seriously questions the factual reality of the policy.

Where there is a question of sincerity here is that some members of one organization have accused members of another of "criminality and piracy" due to certain on the record activities. These accusations have led to one organization setting another red. Now it alleged that similar activities are simply ignored with a blind eye when it is politically convenient involving a third organization. Personally, I find the accusation "HYPOCRISY!" to be an overused one on these forums. But in this case I can see why people might find it appropriate.

Were I in your shoes and walking in the company of Core Impulse and Neo Spartan veterans I'd endeavour to grow a thicker skin Sofia.

Personally I take all local communications with anyone, especially war targets, with a fistful. Can't fault you for your naivety though.

I don't think we've ever denied being hypocrites, but then again we're not bound by such a strict set of morals. Nobody can really say that politic is a clean business though, there's always going to be someone on the receiving end. If Electus Matari want to associate themselves with the lesser of two evils though, then that's their prerogative.

Grow a thicker skin and become a crusty old fusspot? I don't think so. You're mistaking faux offense for something more. I'm aware that we both do what needs to be done to get the job finished.

Consider the source Pilot Roesburn and then studiously ignore it as I'll be doing from now on. Constantine's MO on the IGS has been the same for years; to employ tortured logic, ignoring of any facts not convenient to her arguments, dodging of questions and turning questions around onto the person who asked them in order to impugn their integrity. This is normally done in an overly verbose, pseudo-intellectual style designed to make herself look superior.

In other words Constantine is in love with the sound of her own voice and her ego is the size of a constellation. It's a true pity that such a noble cause is being led by one as arrogant as her. No wonder so many longtime SF pilots have chosen to flee in recent months. They had to leave before the sound of Constantine continually blowing her own horn drove them mad or made them deaf.

Constantine's MO on the IGS has been the same for years; to employ tortured logic, ignoring of any facts not convenient to her arguments, dodging of questions and turning questions around onto the person who asked them in order to impugn their integrity.

FEARLESS are a self declared NBSI entity who will shoot whoever they please.

Unprovoked Wars
An unprovoked war is a CONCORD war declaration on a target without a good reason. This includes wars for the purpose of extorting money and wars declared "just for fun." We consider such an abuse of the lenience of CONCORD to be a crime.

If that's the way you want to see it then so be it. You and I have both agreed in the past that disinformation is a rather valuable asset in one's repertoire. Can't see why you'd change your tune when it doesn't benefit you.Oh wait, yes I can.

Consider the source Pilot Roesburn and then studiously ignore it as I'll be doing from now on. Constantine's MO on the IGS has been the same for years; to employ tortured logic, ignoring of any facts not convenient to her arguments, dodging of questions and turning questions around onto the person who asked them in order to impugn their integrity. This is normally done in an overly verbose, pseudo-intellectual style designed to make herself look superior.

In other words Constantine is in love with the sound of her own voice and her ego is the size of a constellation. It's a true pity that such a noble cause is being led by one as arrogant as her. No wonder so many longtime SF pilots have chosen to flee in recent months. They had to leave before the sound of Constantine continually blowing her own horn drove them mad or made them deaf.

Nailed it. You sir are awesome. ((+1 Internets for you))

Another sock puppet supporting a sock puppet. Good heavens have we gotten to that part of the debate already. How about people stand up and announce themselves in their own name and we have an honest discussion of these matters without purile galnet strategies.

This is not a diplomacy board and I don't expect an answer or explanation for this on this board from EM.

[quote=Jade Constantine]
Sure. My name is Ivan 'Crazy Vania' Dvergar, and I think you are doing a terrible job at mediating this issue. Somehow this conversation has turned from an Obdisian Front standing order change announcement to a monologue about your pet peeve with EM.

Am I wrong, or is this one of the most common IGS thread template:
Party A says "We are cool"
Party B says "We don't like you"
Jade Constantine says "BLABLABLABLABLABLABLA"

In a related note - Mr. Ynot, smacktalking people in local while you try to negotiate peace with them is counterproductive.

If you wish to negotiate peace, do so in private.

Doing so by attacking EM's integrity and principles does not particularly make anyone sound very genuine about their intents of a "peaceful situation."

Came expecting poorly reasoned and irritating arguments by idiots.

Left with the knowledge that there actually is a limit to how much trash I can read, about half way through the first post.

You always were a pain to deal with, pray I don't see you again, I'm not bound by things like Rules of Engagement any more and no, that isn't an empty threat.

Keep trying Jade...

In the same sense that if you keep an infinite number of monkeys with datapads tapping away for an infinite amount of time one will produce the Pax Amarria if you keep writing your pages and pages of labourious prose and rhetoric you may have a valid point.

FEARLESS. has been contracted to wage war on FRONT and -SF- space assets in and around the Hek area (I see that you have managed to neatly dodge this by transferring your POCOs to a neutral corporation, something which will be dealt with in time). Hardly an unprovoked war. That makes all pilots flying under those banners (and those who provide them with aid) legitimate targets.

I won't bore you with our lengthy RoE but I have given my pilots free reign within the Aemen pocket so as to prevent infiltration by 'neutral' pilots who seek to learn our disposition and those who we suspect of using the remaining Customs Offices which belong to our targets. Note that Aemen is part of the Gallente Federation and not the Minmatar Republic.

On the Customs Office issue. We are not particularly concerned with taxes and income from them for now. Any that we have claimed and still hold at the end of our contract will be turned over to our client. He can then do with them what he pleases.

Our arrangement with Electus Matari is, quite frankly, none of your business. We have abided by and will continue to abide by the terms and conditions they presented to us.

Will deal with this in detail later on

I have to wonder EM, can you not spare a single one of your shady backroom diplomats to at least make some kind of effort to deal with public relations?

It's a pretty straight forward question, why; given your stated aims and aspirations, support and defend a NBSI Merc Corp?

I am genuinely confused.



.... Oh, and before anyone pipe's up with the old 'its none of your buisness, we don't have to justify, we dont care what the public thinks blah blah blah...' I'll just point out you fight for a Republic. A democratic, political republic, such entites rely on a public buy-in to function. If you refuse to nurture that your republic is already lost (Yay!).

If at all possible, could you deal with it in slightly less detail than usual?

I apparently am the "devil" of space.
So be it.
Sometimes even the devil makes a solid argument.

[
Jade I don't know why you might find it surprising that some people don't like you.

In my humble opinion, this world that we all call our home would be a better place if more people followed the example made in the first post.

I salute you, Ynot. You are a good man.