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Zanarkand Gallente Enterprise Estonia	Posted - 2007.12.11 18:26:00 - [181] Edited by: Zanarkand on 11/12/2007 18:27:00 Originally by: "ione hunt" ... Hail: Falcon&Vaga vs a solo BS...Vaga vs pve raven in Sansha regions... RF EMP: Vaga vs a pve raven in random region or some recon combos or whatever... Just because barrage is the most used, doesn't mean other ammos are useless. Vagabond is getting more and more popular, not just random hype on eve-o hype. Check killboards... I am not whining against nanoships in general, in fact, due to the current state of the game 99% of the time I only pvp with t2 nanohacs/recons, but vagabond(... and huginn) needs a small nerf, nothing too drastic. -2 lowslots = ok imo. Redesigning local, capitals and poses would be far better againt blob, but somewhy all suggestions fall on deaf ears.
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.12.11 18:27:00 - [182] Originally by: Ione Hunt Originally by: shinsushi Edited by: shinsushi on 11/12/2007 18:12:20 Originally by: Ione Hunt Speed is one of the last counters against the blob. If you fight behind enemy lines like a lot of corps do, speed is necessary stand at least a small chance to survive "the blob". What is really funny is that the speed trick works really well against most alliances...since most are to friggin' stupid to adapt and add 1-2 Huginns to their defense gangs, or neut-ships. Instead they come here to whine about how overpowerd the Vaga is instead of using the counters CCP HAS PUT IN PLACE. Hell, you have Vaga pilots like me who TELL you how to beat them, but you still continue to whine because it's probably easier for you to have CCP nerf something than to adapt. Why don't you all go play X3 the singleplayer game. If it gets too hard and you are too lazy to adapt, just enter a cheat code and play in god mode. Hmm... ok so this is what you mean. "Speed allows me to fight very outnumbered, meaning that my one setup is worth 2-3 normal ones. I know this sounds overpowered, but its not, because I say so. The blob is evil, and I am supposed to be able to take out multiple players with my i-win setup. I try to talk about playing a multiplayer game, but *** as soon as people team up and call it blobbing. I will hold on too my overpowered ship as hard as I can, I will call it an anti-blob too much like overpowered ships of the past were. Now I will say, LOL Noobs... there are counters all over, when this has been proven wrong time and again. Being aabond pilot I forget the only real counter to my speed is 3 EW minnie craft. " How about the EFT whiners, they're premise is that somehow numbers are wrong, and should not be used to MEASURE PERFORMANCE. I know, its strange isn't it? They cannot come up with a decent rebuttal, and I guess figure that saying "get out of EFT" is just that. How about I say, "start using EFT" ? Maybe being ignorant isn't a good postition to take is it? Your paraphrasing of my posts sucks. If you don't acknowledge that there are countless counters even after reading hundreds of help posts, or if you are too stupid to use them, I can't help you. The only thing speed allows the Vaga to do is run. It won't help kill more targets...so no, it's not worth 2-3 ships. EFT is a good program, but it does NOT reflect actual gameplay 100% accurately. It has NOT been proven that the mentioned counters don't work. If they don't work for you, YOU are doing something wrong. But chances are you're just a troll because so far you haven't really brought up a single argument that hasn't been totally destroyed by other posters. Read Grimpak's last post Ok, lets see, what can I use to kill a vaga?? webs? no Webs on a minnie EW ship? yes Battleship sized Neuts/curse? no obstructions? not unless the vaga pilot is ****** Ok, so with webs being the only real COUNTER to speed, 3 ships in the game are meant to deal with them. HEy do you balance around faction/officer stuff??? no right? I COULD use a Neut to kill his cap, and he COULD use a cap booster to not worry about neuts. OF course most vaga pilots fit cap batteries because very few battleships even fit neuts anymore. Where are these infinite counters eh? An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
Zanarkand Gallente Enterprise Estonia	Posted - 2007.12.11 18:32:00 - [183] Originally by: shinsushi ... Every pve raven can logoffski/ss & cloak (thanks to local) from vagabonds. What is the counter against that? You know why vagabonds actually kill carebear ravens? Because the raven pilots make mistakes, same applies to vagabond pilots. Vagabonds are being killed every day.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.11 18:32:00 - [184] Edited by: Grimpak on 11/12/2007 18:33:05 Originally by: shinsushi I COULD use a Neut to kill his cap, and he COULD use a cap booster to not worry about neuts. OF course most vaga pilots fit cap batteries because very few battleships even fit neuts anymore. Originally by: shinsushi OF course most vaga pilots fit cap batteries because very few battleships even fit neuts anymore. Originally by: shinsushi OF course most vaga pilots fit cap batteries Originally by: shinsushi vaga pilots fit cap batteries I think we can close this thread. --- planetary interaction idea!
Victor Ivanov Minmatar The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.11 18:35:00 - [185] Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 11/12/2007 18:33:05 Originally by: shinsushi I COULD use a Neut to kill his cap, and he COULD use a cap booster to not worry about neuts. OF course most vaga pilots fit cap batteries because very few battleships even fit neuts anymore. Originally by: shinsushi OF course most vaga pilots fit cap batteries because very few battleships even fit neuts anymore. Originally by: shinsushi OF course most vaga pilots fit cap batteries Originally by: shinsushi vaga pilots fit cap batteries I think we can close this thread. Win! ----------------------
Ione Hunt 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.12.11 18:36:00 - [186] Counters to Vagas: 1) Heavy Neuts...2 of 'em will suck dry a Vaga and prevent it from MWD'ing away. 2) Clever manouvering...not just "hit approach". If you time it right even a "slow" Deimos can get in range unless the Vaga pilot is super clever. I've done it before... 3) Webs...yes they DO work. If you're not in a Minmatar webber ship, you have to manouver clever to get in range. Can be tricky, but it's doable. 4) Gank setups...if I'm in my gankathron the Vaga better keeps MWD'ing at full speed all the time or it'll pop after just a few volleys. I popped Vagas with a gankathron before they realized they should warp out. 5) Damps...force it to come close. 6) Tracking disruptors...ditto. 7) ECM...kinda hard to kill something if you can't get a lock. ...but the most important tip is the following: 8) Do not get yourself in a situation where you have to fight a Vaga unprepared. If you are ratting in 0.0 watch local, use the scanner, and do not get into a fight you are not prepared for. Just like I would never engage a friggin' Huginn in my Vaga, you should not expect to survive against my Vaga in a 425mm rail Megathron solo in a belt. Now you can continue whining that those counters don't help, but they do! I use them, and so does every PVP'er with a brain. Yes it's not as easy as only hitting F1-F8, but it works. _______________
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.12.11 18:36:00 - [187] Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 11/12/2007 18:33:05 Originally by: shinsushi I COULD use a Neut to kill his cap, and he COULD use a cap booster to not worry about neuts. OF course most vaga pilots fit cap batteries because very few battleships even fit neuts anymore. Originally by: shinsushi OF course most vaga pilots fit cap batteries because very few battleships even fit neuts anymore. Originally by: shinsushi OF course most vaga pilots fit cap batteries Originally by: shinsushi vaga pilots fit cap batteries I think we can close this thread. So, you think vaga pilots don't fit medium cap batteries eh? Try it out, what as your setup becomes 99% cap stable without the need for cap boosters. Ok, lets just assume for one moment that you have the bad fortune of running into a ship that has some NEuts fitted (shouldn't be an amarr BS because they don't have the spare highs or fitting). Do you kill the vagabond? No, then what is that called? Its not really a counter, since the vagabond will definitely live, so its more of a deterant isn't it since no one wins... An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.12.11 18:40:00 - [188] Originally by: Ione Hunt Counters to Vagas: 1) Heavy Neuts...2 of 'em will suck dry a Vaga and prevent it from MWD'ing away. 2) Clever manouvering...not just "hit approach". If you time it right even a "slow" Deimos can get in range unless the Vaga pilot is super clever. I've done it before... 3) Webs...yes they DO work. If you're not in a Minmatar webber ship, you have to manouver clever to get in range. Can be tricky, but it's doable. 4) Gank setups...if I'm in my gankathron the Vaga better keeps MWD'ing at full speed all the time or it'll pop after just a few volleys. I popped Vagas with a gankathron before they realized they should warp out. 5) Damps...force it to come close. 6) Tracking disruptors...ditto. 7) ECM...kinda hard to kill something if you can't get a lock. ...but the most important tip is the following: 8) Do not get yourself in a situation where you have to fight a Vaga unprepared. If you are ratting in 0.0 watch local, use the scanner, and do not get into a fight you are not prepared for. Just like I would never engage a friggin' Huginn in my Vaga, you should not expect to survive against my Vaga in a 425mm rail Megathron solo in a belt. Now you can continue whining that those counters don't help, but they do! I use them, and so does every PVP'er with a brain. Yes it's not as easy as only hitting F1-F8, but it works. 1)doesn't allow you to win, it allows you to stalemate. You both still have your ships. Thats loosing in a vaga (LOL) 2)Pilot error on a vagas part 3)Pilot error given its not a huggin/rapier/kitsune 4)Pilot error, a mega tracking a vaga... lol. 5)EW = stalemate 6)TDs = stalemate 7) ECM = stalemate. HEy not a signle viable way to beat a vaga pilot, just to stalmate him. IF you measure victory by scaring of the opponent, and your opponent measure victory in your death, guess who is going to win? An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.11 18:43:00 - [189] Originally by: shinsushi So, you think vaga pilots don't fit medium cap batteries eh? Try it out, what as your setup becomes 99% cap stable without the need for cap boosters. 99% cap stable? as in lasts for 2 minutes? yeah sure. forget about the LSE that you need to survive, after all you're cap stable. --- planetary interaction idea!
Bruce Deorum Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.11 18:50:00 - [190] Originally by: shinsushi Ok, lets just assume for one moment that you have the bad fortune of running into a ship that has some NEuts fitted (shouldn't be an amarr BS because they don't have the spare highs or fitting). Do you kill the vagabond? No, then what is that called? Its not really a counter, since the vagabond will definitely live, so its more of a deterant isn't it since no one wins... Hmm...if that's the case, then both Warp Core Stabilizers and ECCM are not "counters" to Disruptors and ECM respectively...both should make targeted enemy ships using scrams and ECM to implode instantly! Heavy Neuts can make a Vaga turn around and run away, and that's a proper counter IMHO... It can also be part of a "Vaga killin setup", but few setups are guaranteed against pilot skills (or the lack of them). I am he, the bornless one
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:07:00 - [191] Originally by: Bruce Deorum blah Oh right, so counters only create stalemates then? Like if someone has more gank than your tank, you get to just keep your ship and go away, or when someone fits ECCM and you fail to jam, you get to just leave. The only items that allow you to leave combat at will, aside from vagas, are WCS. Don't WCS remove nearly all combat effectiveness from a ship? An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
Odium47	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:12:00 - [192] Dear God, Please keep the stupid people by Your side and don't send them to us anymore. They are really very stupid, and only You can tolerate their absolute stupidity!
Ione Hunt 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:25:00 - [193] Shinsushi...you are a totally hopeless, missinformed guy who has no friggin' clue what he's talking about. Fact is, there are counters against Vagabonds, in some cases like the heavy Neut it even helps to kill it, not just make it run...but since you are to stupid to use those tactics, I will give up argumenting with you. Go on posting your bull**** "cap battery & Hail" setup Vagabond posts no one in his right mind would ever use except he's high or drunk...but anyone with a brain can see it's nothing but a frustrated Amarr troll. _______________
Bruce Deorum Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:26:00 - [194] Originally by: shinsushi Oh right, so counters only create stalemates then? Like if someone has more gank than your tank, you get to just keep your ship and go away, or when someone fits ECCM and you fail to jam, you get to just leave. The only items that allow you to leave combat at will, aside from vagas, are WCS. Don't WCS remove nearly all combat effectiveness from a ship? Well, your stubbornness and dedication into proving something out of nothing are as strong in game as it is in ALL of your latest posts, you might just sit there and lose your ship! I need more ppl like you actually playing EVE to make me look better in it Seriously now : are you one of those ppl who get paid 10-15M to bll*** the forums around any given subject? Cause at this rate, you should be rich I am he, the bornless one
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:34:00 - [195] Ione, thats right, run away. You know you are wrong, so you stomp your feet like a little girl and leave. Who said anything about using Hail? Thanks for putting words in my mouth. Now why wouldn't you use a cap battery on a vaga? It makes it much more cap stable than a cap recharger II would, and allows you to operate further into enemy territory without logistics (i.e. cap boosters). Your wrong, you could have admitted it like a man. Just tell everyone how you love your overpowered I-win button and no one will think less of you. Saying, "Its balanced, and allows me to take on the blob." Does not compute... *****ing about the blob on one hand, and then telling people to team up on the other does not make any sense. Bruce, you have no point. I may be an ass, but you are a troll. An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
Drek Grapper Minmatar	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:34:00 - [196] Originally by: shinsushi Ok, lets see, what can I use to kill a vaga?? webs? no Webs on a minnie EW ship? yes Battleship sized Neuts/curse? no obstructions? not unless the vaga pilot is ****** Ok, so with webs being the only real COUNTER to speed, 3 ships in the game are meant to deal with them. HEy do you balance around faction/officer stuff??? no right? I COULD use a Neut to kill his cap, and he COULD use a cap booster to not worry about neuts. OF course most vaga pilots fit cap batteries because very few battleships even fit neuts anymore. Where are these infinite counters eh? What a load of tripe. From what i have read of your previous posts you haven't a bloody clue. I rekon you could qualify for FOTM yourself. Fool. Stop trying to impress yourself with deluded arguments and why not try firing a few more of those rusty synapses once in a while eh? Who knows...It could be the start of a wonderfull new life. ------------------------------------------------ 'The thing always happens that you really believe in... and the belief in a thing makes it happen' - Frank Loyd Wright**
Vasq Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:37:00 - [197] His ship is better than mine ... nerf it!!! Smoke me a kipper, i'll be back for breakfast!
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:39:00 - [198] Originally by: Drek Grapper Originally by: shinsushi Ok, lets see, what can I use to kill a vaga?? webs? no Webs on a minnie EW ship? yes Battleship sized Neuts/curse? no obstructions? not unless the vaga pilot is ******** Ok, so with webs being the only real COUNTER to speed, 3 ships in the game are meant to deal with them. HEy do you balance around faction/officer stuff??? no right? I COULD use a Neut to kill his cap, and he COULD use a cap booster to not worry about neuts. OF course most vaga pilots fit cap batteries because very few battleships even fit neuts anymore. Where are these infinite counters eh? What a load of tripe. From what i have read of your previous posts you haven't a bloody clue. I rekon you could qualify for FOTM yourself. Fool. Stop trying to impress yourself with deluded arguments and why not try firing a few more of those rusty synapses once in a while eh? Who knows...It could be the start of a wonderfull new life. Wow, way to prove me wrong. Not a bit of logic or facts, no numbers or anything... FoTM is vagabonds if you haven't noticed dummy. Are all vaga pilots as idiotic as those found in this thread? Here is what people said about ECM "It has plenty of counters." Nano-craze "Counters" Nos, "Counters" Remote DDD< "Counters" Guess what, they all responded like you when put under the spotlight. An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
Ione Hunt 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:45:00 - [199] One last post (yes, I got weak): POST WITH YOUR MAIN if you want people to take you seriously!! Not some 1 month old noob corp char...or are you only 1 month old? _______________
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:47:00 - [200] Edited by: shinsushi on 11/12/2007 19:50:45 Originally by: Ione Hunt One last post (yes, I got weak): POST WITH YOUR MAIN if you want people to take you seriously!! Not some 1 month old noob corp char...or are you only 1 month old? Check out the sig, but I am glad that you have resorted to one of the last hopes of a failed argument, character assasination. I use alot of insults, but thats just because stupid people **** me off. I always back it all up with facts, figures and statistics (in other words evidence) I guess I should stop repling to Drek aswell. Unless of course by some weird miracle he pulls a coherent arguement out of his ass. I think I am pretty safe from that though. An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
Drek Grapper Minmatar	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:49:00 - [201] Originally by: shinsushi Wow, way to prove me wrong. Not a bit of logic or facts, no numbers or anything... FoTM is vagabonds if you haven't noticed dummy. Are all vaga pilots as idiotic as those found in this thread? Here is what people said about ECM "It has plenty of counters." Nano-craze "Counters" Nos, "Counters" Remote DDD< "Counters" Guess what, they all responded like you when put under the spotlight. This thread is full of them. You enjoy the sound of your own keyboard tapping away so much you haven't bothered to stop and take note. ------------------------------------------------ 'The thing always happens that you really believe in... and the belief in a thing makes it happen' - Frank Loyd Wright
SiJira	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:59:00 - [202] quick lets make every ship only marginally better in any aspect than any other ship Trashed sig, Shark was here
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:13:00 - [203] Originally by: SiJira quick lets make every ship only marginally better in any aspect than any other ship No bearing on anything at all. Oh, I never once said what I would like done did I? Nerf the living **** out of snakes and polycarbons. Leave the Vaga alone, boost some other ships slightly. An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
Illminatis	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:26:00 - [204] Edited by: Illminatis on 11/12/2007 20:27:31 AHAHAHAHHA This thread is made of win and lulz. You have an idiot arguing with 0utbreak about nanofaggotry. 0utbreak do three things: snipe in temptests/meags, cap-blob, and nano. You lost the argument before you started.
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:32:00 - [205] Originally by: Illminatis Edited by: Illminatis on 11/12/2007 20:27:31 AHAHAHAHHA This thread is made of win and lulz. You have an idiot arguing with 0utbreak about nanofaggotry. 0utbreak do three things: snipe in temptests/meags, cap-blob, and nano. You lost the argument before you started. Outbreak is full of ** and I am calling them on it. Take away the nanos and Outbreak becomes your average corp with a load of Caps. Thats why they defend the out of their I-win buttons, because they aren't ** without it. An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
Creeture Minmatar eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:40:00 - [206] I honestly think if any of you nerf-callers actualy spent any time in a vaga, you would realize people fly them coz they are fun, not because they wtfpwn... Anything with duel webs, or any decent level of ECM will give a vaga a very hard time of it.. Vagas are not a solo pwnmobile, they are hacs with questionable dps and a lot of speed, this combination makes the vaga a very challenging ship to fly.. particularly 1v1. And cap boosters on a vaga??? made me laugh so hard I spit my coffee out.... nublets! Creeture, eXceed Inc....
Cpt Constantinus PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.11 21:19:00 - [207] As an Amarr specialised pilot who lost quite a few Zealots in battles against Vagabonds i can only say, leave the damn Vaga alone. Seriously, what comes next? A whine that you need bc/bb scale firepower to break a Sacri's tank? Or perhaps one about the Eagle's range eh? The Vaga might be one of the best hacs but it will lose against every decent battlecruiser ( either by exploding or being forced to warp), something a Zealot/Cerb/Ishtar/Munin ( my favourite hac which needs either a 5. turret or a small dronebay :D )wont.
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.12.11 21:21:00 - [208] Originally by: Cpt Constantinus As an Amarr specialised pilot who lost quite a few Zealots in battles against Vagabonds i can only say, leave the damn Vaga alone. Seriously, what comes next? A whine that you need bc/bb scale firepower to break a Sacri's tank? Or perhaps one about the Eagle's range eh? The Vaga might be one of the best hacs but it will lose against every decent battlecruiser ( either by exploding or being forced to warp), something a Zealot/Cerb/Ishtar/Munin ( my favourite hac which needs either a 5. turret or a small dronebay :D )wont. Did you just say that a Zealot won't loose to a battlecruiser? No words...... An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
Cpt Constantinus PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.11 21:23:00 - [209] Yes, a Zealot wont lose to a battlecruiser...you know, noone is forcing you to fight at close ranges. You should prolly start to fly one.
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.12.11 21:32:00 - [210] lol, ok, so I wonder if a BC can tank less than 300 DPS the zealot does indefinitely, how about less than 300 EM DPS, esp since we are talking about either scorch or using beams. I wonder..... An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.

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