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So, looks like Jump Freighters will be in the 8-12bn range

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Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:05:00 - [31] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Erotic Irony ur wrong, the actual cost is much lower because, Now this is the story all about how, My life got flipped, turned upside down And IÆd like to take a minute just sit right there IÆll tell you how I became the prince of a town called bel-air. In west philadelfia born and raised,on the playground where I spent most of my days Chilling out, maxing, relaxing all cool And all shooting some b-ball outside of the school when a couple of guys said "weÆre up in no good" Started making trouble in my neighbourhood. I got in one little fight and my mom got scared, and said "youÆre moving with your aunte and uncle in bel-air" Worst bel-air ever. Actually, I don't think it even counts. Go back to gaia. The only thing worse than 4chan memes outside 4chan is poor attempts at 4chan memes outside 4chan. noticed that you added a new sig to your collection --- planetary interaction idea!
Ma'kal Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:07:00 - [32] Edited by: Ma''kal on 10/12/2007 18:08:58 Originally by: Tarminic Actually, it is entirely relevant that you won't stand behind your post enough to post with your main character. Hiding behind an alt gives you a hell of a lot less credibility. If you can't understand that, then I am very sorry for you. Argumentum ad hominem: This is a special kind of non sequitur in which it is concluded that a person's ideas need not be considered because of some personal characteristic which in fact is irrelevant to the ideas under discussion. Examples: 'Von Daniken's books about ancient astronauts are worthless because he is a convicted forger and embezzler.' 'The contributions of Oscar Wilde to literature cannot be taken seriously. He was, after all, a skeptic, a cynic and a blatant homosexual.'
Apocryphai Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:15:00 - [33] Originally by: Tarminic I like how you don't have enough belief in your assertion to support it with your main. Interesting how you forum warriors have decided to pick this particular thread to make a "stand" about forum alt posts, when there's alts all over the forums. Is there a vested interest here, hmm? ________________________________________________________________ Originally by: Victor Valka What the skull-chick said.
Admiral Nova Strike Team Nova	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:17:00 - [34] I'm getting between 3.3 and 4.4bn isk just in advanced materials for the Anshar. + invention cost + Obelisk + morphite and construction blocks. So upwards of 6bn to make.. I think they've missed their target by about double. :\
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:17:00 - [35] Er...just for the record, I never said that I cared whether he posted with a main or an alt, just that generally it would give his argument more credibility. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
OldWolfe The Scope	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:26:00 - [36] Originally by: Tarminic Er...just for the record, I never said that I cared whether he posted with a main or an alt, just that generally it would give his argument more credibility. How will whatever character a person uses to post mathematical information make the 1+1=2 any more creditable? All I'm saying is that posting on any characters does not have much weight when it comes to doing math because the true weight of credibility lies not in the character used to post in, but in the math done within the thread. That alone will support or destroy the OP's (or anyone) stances and thoughts behind something and for something, regardless of who they are.
000Hunter000 Gallente Magners Marauders	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:26:00 - [37] Originally by: Lisento Slaven I'll ask the question then...why do these things cost so much and do so little? Cuz a few alliances had problems shipping their carebearing goods around offcourse. CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!! Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
Jimer Lins Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:28:00 - [38] It'll sell if the cost of buying it can be offset by its use, just like anything else. Since a freighter is a long-term investment, they'll sell. --
An Anarchyyt Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:32:00 - [39] Originally by: OldWolfe Originally by: Tarminic Er...just for the record, I never said that I cared whether he posted with a main or an alt, just that generally it would give his argument more credibility. How will whatever character a person uses to post mathematical information make the 1+1=2 any more creditable? All I'm saying is that posting on any characters does not have much weight when it comes to doing math because the true weight of credibility lies not in the character used to post in, but in the math done within the thread. That alone will support or destroy the OP's (or anyone) stances and thoughts behind something and for something, regardless of who they are. X + Y = Z is a lot different than known values that can not change. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Lysit Kaune Minmatar Phoenix Division Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:34:00 - [40] Originally by: Tarminic Er...just for the record, I never said that I cared whether he posted with a main or an alt, just that generally it would give his argument more credibility. Yes, but likely only to people who are a bit slow or are inclinded to prejudge. The fact you felt the need to point out the Alt-ness puts you somewhere near to that crowd, otherwise you would have addressed the point at hand (Which might not be well made, but you glossed over that for some reason).
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:35:00 - [41] Originally by: OldWolfe All I'm saying is that posting on any characters does not have much weight when it comes to doing math because the true weight of credibility lies not in the character used to post in, but in the math done within the thread. That alone will support or destroy the OP's (or anyone) stances and thoughts behind something and for something, regardless of who they are. Had the OP shown their math I most likely would not have said anything - but they made an assertion about the build costs, then used that as the basis for another assertion that was actually a whine (which as you know I have a low tolerance for), without actually using any math. As such I was skeptical of the OP's qualifications. In hindsight it appears that I may have overstepped reason with my skepticism, and if so I apologize. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
OldWolfe The Scope	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:35:00 - [42] Edited by: OldWolfe on 10/12/2007 18:36:01 Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: OldWolfe Originally by: Tarminic Er...just for the record, I never said that I cared whether he posted with a main or an alt, just that generally it would give his argument more credibility. How will whatever character a person uses to post mathematical information make the 1+1=2 any more creditable? All I'm saying is that posting on any characters does not have much weight when it comes to doing math because the true weight of credibility lies not in the character used to post in, but in the math done within the thread. That alone will support or destroy the OP's (or anyone) stances and thoughts behind something and for something, regardless of who they are. X + Y = Z is a lot different than known values that can not change. You're missing my point. A poster that posts mathematical information will use that to make him/herself into a creditable source, NOT the who of the character that makes the information creditable.
Valia Deluri Cirrius Technologies O X I D E	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:35:00 - [43] hmm so let me get this straight. 2 bill for a roqual, 2-3 sets of jumps with carrier escort vs jump freighter 4.5 bil , 1 jump with carrier escort. So I mine some more veld for my day back when I want to jump stuff to empire or back. Give me a break. no self respecting carebear is gonna blink twice at the cost of a jump freighter vs the time we'll get back with it. Lets not even talk about time back fueling POSes. Code of Deluri Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I cannot accept, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of those people I had to kill today.
Ms Tolarri Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:43:00 - [44] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Erotic Irony ur wrong, the actual cost is much lower because, Now this is the story all about how, My life got flipped, turned upside down And IÆd like to take a minute just sit right there IÆll tell you how I became the prince of a town called bel-air. In west philadelfia born and raised,on the playground where I spent most of my days Chilling out, maxing, relaxing all cool And all shooting some b-ball outside of the school when a couple of guys said "weÆre up in no good" Started making trouble in my neighbourhood. I got in one little fight and my mom got scared, and said "youÆre moving with your aunte and uncle in bel-air" YOU WIN. THREAD OFFICIALLY CLOSED. TYVM FOR POSTIN' It was a fail attempt at bel-airing the thread... Srsly, it sucked big hairy ****nipples.
Reprimander The Littlest Hobos Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:08:00 - [45] Originally by: Empyre geesh.. you'd think people could wait at least a month for the market to settle before firing up the whambulance. but then again, i've been hearing sirens non-stop since the 24 hr DT ended. Actually, We're not talking about market blips here, we're talking about build cost based on advanced reaction material - log in your jita market alt and take a look yourself These prices will only increase, since there is a finite and fixed number of decent moons/reaction in the game, and an ever increasing demand due to invention... these ships use massive amounts of advanced reaction material. Based on their build + invention cost alone, you are looking at 7bn-ish, maybe a little more. The market will stablise at 8bn IF WE ARE LUCKY! Otherwise, 10-12bn sounds reasonable - which is a crazy price, really, considering two rorquals costing 4bn can do the same thing.
Admiral Nova Strike Team Nova	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:11:00 - [46] If CCP want to do anything about this they have just days left before these start being cooked, and people start getting really really annoyed at any 'late' changes.
Nova Fox	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:33:00 - [47] There where talks about using bpos in invention to increase chances and cut down on copying times as well. Not sure if we are going to see that any time soon but it will definetly make things alot better(also bpos wont be lost just cant copy or research them during that time). But the roquel argument is sorta lame considering most people cant fly the damn ship while many could possibly get in a jump freighter easily if they are already a freighter pilot and a carrier pilot. I mean hell I can fly one in a 3 weeks as opposed to a roquels 2 months for me. Also the more you haul with other ships the higher they get on the list of to be nerfed next list. I like dreads the way they are leave em alone please or add too, stop taking away. Prices? little high imo but meh mabey theyll adjust it eventually or if bpo invention falls though, however in line of t1 vs t2 its almost fair, most t2 are about 10x more than thier t1 counterparts one upon a time before invention but its still close to 5x higher now adays. Usefulness, cmon a jumping capitol ship thats allowed in empire and can use gates to do the shopping? Id take that feature over the roquel anyday, so that way the same pilot that does the big haul can go shopping at the same time. Lack of fuel bays on capitols, honestly i think all caps need a fuel bay for thier jump drives and only the fuel they use for jump and seige will be allowed in it. this would make space on the jump freighter more useful. And post with your main or turn you amarrdamned allaince and corp flags on if you wanted to be more credible tbh because right now im sure that the only time we are going to see your name pop up in our address books in the game is when you log on to open a cyno and log back off when done or when you have to get fuel :P.
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:44:00 - [48] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Erotic Irony ur wrong, the actual cost is much lower because, Now this is the story all about how, My life got flipped, turned upside down And IÆd like to take a minute just sit right there IÆll tell you how I became the prince of a town called bel-air. In west philadelfia born and raised,on the playground where I spent most of my days Chilling out, maxing, relaxing all cool And all shooting some b-ball outside of the school when a couple of guys said "weÆre up in no good" Started making trouble in my neighbourhood. I got in one little fight and my mom got scared, and said "youÆre moving with your aunte and uncle in bel-air" YOU WIN. THREAD OFFICIALLY CLOSED. TYVM FOR POSTIN' It would be funny if it was original. It's not. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:46:00 - [49] Originally by: Reprimander Actually, We're not talking about market blips here, we're talking about build cost based on advanced reaction material - log in your jita market alt and take a look yourself i am, and yes i understand how the market works. and if you understand a free market, you'll know that new products are always introduced at ridiculous prices. people tend to scale up rather than down when it comes to unsettled pricing. and as far as the 'limited number of moons' argument goes, i'm not buying it. i dare you to take one region and just fly around with a pod checking how many moons are actually being utilized between lo-sec and 0.0. it's low. then gaze a while and see what the turn-around is on these operations due to hostilities, laziness in fueling or just boredom. there's plenty to go around. the true problem is getting them regularly farmed to keep the materials on the market long enough to have competition between vendors so the price comes down. supply vs demand and competition drives prices down in a free market. in most places i've seen, supply is there but never fully utilized, demand is not consistent (which is why a lot of manufacturers enter into private contracts with other manufacturers) and competition comes and goes with the tides. if there were stable markets created and sustained in places other than Jita, Rens, Amarr and the like then you'd probably see a much better level of competition and prices on new items that stabilize much more quickly. but it's just not the way things work right now. The official goon buzz-kill.
Reprimander The Littlest Hobos Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:49:00 - [50] Originally by: Empyre Originally by: Reprimander Actually, We're not talking about market blips here, we're talking about build cost based on advanced reaction material - log in your jita market alt and take a look yourself i am, and yes i understand how the market works. and if you understand a free market, you'll know that new products are always introduced at ridiculous prices. But 8bn is not a ridiculous price, its a very reasonable price CONSIDERING how much they cost to build. We'd be lucky to get them for that price on the open market. This is nothing to do with it being new and shiny, its just how much it is going to cost to build. And that price, which is determined by a finite supply of reaction materials, ain't going down unless something big changes.
OldWolfe The Scope	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:50:00 - [51] So the jump freighter can make cyno jumps in empire space without using jump gates?
Mrs CynoAlt	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:51:00 - [52] Originally by: Nova Fox im sure that the only time we are going to see your name pop up in our address books in the game is when you log on to open a cyno and log back off when done or when you have to get fuel :P. HOW VERY DARE YOU
Reprimander The Littlest Hobos Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.10 20:01:00 - [53] http://www.eve-guides.com/bugs/ark.jpg This is the breakdown of raw Ark build cost which someone posted on the industry forum today - excluding invention cost of approx 1bn. BPC's coming out are in the -4 ME range, so we're talking about a 7bn-ish total build cost. Add a modest profit, and thats 8bn MINIMUM. My understanding is that stated cost would be in the 3bn range, so CCP are way off the mark with this.
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2007.12.10 20:16:00 - [54] Originally by: Reprimander Originally by: Empyre Originally by: Reprimander Actually, We're not talking about market blips here, we're talking about build cost based on advanced reaction material - log in your jita market alt and take a look yourself i am, and yes i understand how the market works. and if you understand a free market, you'll know that new products are always introduced at ridiculous prices. But 8bn is not a ridiculous price, its a very reasonable price CONSIDERING how much they cost to build. We'd be lucky to get them for that price on the open market. This is nothing to do with it being new and shiny, its just how much it is going to cost to build. And that price, which is determined by a finite supply of reaction materials, ain't going down unless something big changes. i understand that, but you're missing the point. when the price is realized (people will inevitably buy them, even if only a few at first) then people will start farming components to create more parts. this will create competition amongst suppliers, driving the price down. if anything, this could ultimately bring DOWN the price on other caps as well as the jump freighters. but markets take time to mature and adapt to changes. The official goon buzz-kill.
Gort Storm Guard Elite	Posted - 2007.12.10 20:54:00 - [55] This game is in a developmental death spiral of complexity. -- When in doubt, empty the magazine.
Reprimander The Littlest Hobos Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.10 21:18:00 - [56] Edited by: Reprimander on 10/12/2007 21:21:04 Originally by: Empyre i understand that, but you're missing the point. when the price is realized (people will inevitably buy them, even if only a few at first) then people will start farming components to create more parts. this will create competition amongst suppliers, driving the price down. if anything, this could ultimately bring DOWN the price on other caps as well as the jump freighters. but markets take time to mature and adapt to changes. er, no - you dont appear to understand that a jump freighter is a T2 ship, not a standard capital ship... its price depends on the fixed supply of moon minerals You cannot 'farm' more components. The supply of decent moon minerals is is fixed. You can't just 'make some more' because you want to, and pretty much every decent reaction chain in the whole universe IS being farmed. You think prices are high now? Without extra supply, you aint seen nothing yet.
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2007.12.10 21:43:00 - [57] Originally by: Reprimander Edited by: Reprimander on 10/12/2007 21:21:04 Originally by: Empyre i understand that, but you're missing the point. when the price is realized (people will inevitably buy them, even if only a few at first) then people will start farming components to create more parts. this will create competition amongst suppliers, driving the price down. if anything, this could ultimately bring DOWN the price on other caps as well as the jump freighters. but markets take time to mature and adapt to changes. er, no - you dont appear to understand that a jump freighter is a T2 ship, not a standard capital ship... its price depends on the fixed supply of moon minerals You cannot 'farm' more components. The supply of decent moon minerals is is fixed. You can't just 'make some more' because you want to, and pretty much every decent reaction chain in the whole universe IS being farmed. You think prices are high now? Without extra supply, you aint seen nothing yet. and like i said.. prove to me all the moon minerals are 'taken' and i'll prove to you otherwise. i've recently been scouting several moons myself and the moons are kind of bare. several secure cans anchored, but those don't mine much in the way of components. The official goon buzz-kill.
Alz Shado Ever Flow Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.10 21:44:00 - [58] But think of how nice it will be, once these freighters cyno in/out of Jita at whim instead of having to make the long jump to the gate.
Reprimander The Littlest Hobos Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.10 21:53:00 - [59] Originally by: Empyre Originally by: Reprimander Edited by: Reprimander on 10/12/2007 21:21:04 Originally by: Empyre i understand that, but you're missing the point. when the price is realized (people will inevitably buy them, even if only a few at first) then people will start farming components to create more parts. this will create competition amongst suppliers, driving the price down. if anything, this could ultimately bring DOWN the price on other caps as well as the jump freighters. but markets take time to mature and adapt to changes. er, no - you dont appear to understand that a jump freighter is a T2 ship, not a standard capital ship... its price depends on the fixed supply of moon minerals You cannot 'farm' more components. The supply of decent moon minerals is is fixed. You can't just 'make some more' because you want to, and pretty much every decent reaction chain in the whole universe IS being farmed. You think prices are high now? Without extra supply, you aint seen nothing yet. and like i said.. prove to me all the moon minerals are 'taken' and i'll prove to you otherwise. i've recently been scouting several moons myself and the moons are kind of bare. several secure cans anchored, but those don't mine much in the way of components. Every single moon carrying a decent metal is scouted, mined, and fully accounted for. That my friend is a fact. Supply is finite, and in the case of minerals like dysprosium, has been mined at full capacity for a long time already. Now there is a much increased demand, and we start to notice the bottleneck all the more.
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.12.10 22:22:00 - [60] I agree that all the good moons are being mined. There are slight wobbles as territory changes hands, etc, but overall its not like you can wander around and find unclaimed good moons. There was another thread where this was pointed out, and CCP gave a cryptic reply about looking to increase the supply. The problem is that Moon Harvesting Array II's won't help (Anyone ever find any double-abundance Dysporioum?) That leaves the only viable alternative as allowing Empire Moon Mining. If people are allowed to Moon Mine in Empire, it will be fun to see the slaughters that occur over them. Can you imagine how many diffent groups would shoot a Dysporioum moon in Jita? All in all, I say Bring On stuff that needs more moon minerals. With all the problems fueling the damm Pos's, I NEED some sort of Liquid Gold flowing out of them.

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