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So, looks like Jump Freighters will be in the 8-12bn range

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Mrs CynoAlt	Posted - 2007.12.10 16:51:00 - [1] The raw material cost from advanced reactions is well over 4bn, plus 500m+ invention costs, 1bn for the base ships, yet more isk for other material like morphite etc, add a reasonable profit and you're looking at 8bn as a realistic minimum. Thanks CCP but perhaps people might like to buy, say, 5-7 dreads instead and jump haul with them rather than this joke? Or two Roquals. tbh, there was no reason for this ship to be T2 to begin with. Ridiculous is the word.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.12.10 16:53:00 - [2] I love alt whines. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2007.12.10 16:54:00 - [3] ur wrong, the actual cost is much lower because, Now this is the story all about how, My life got flipped, turned upside down And IÆd like to take a minute just sit right there IÆll tell you how I became the prince of a town called bel-air. In west philadelfia born and raised,on the playground where I spent most of my days Chilling out, maxing, relaxing all cool And all shooting some b-ball outside of the school when a couple of guys said "weÆre up in no good" Started making trouble in my neighbourhood. I got in one little fight and my mom got scared, and said "youÆre moving with your aunte and uncle in bel-air" ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2007.12.10 16:55:00 - [4] Edited by: Wendat Huron on 10/12/2007 16:55:03 They're trying to see if they can introduce a ship open to everyone to build and own that no-one ever will. These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade!
Mrs CynoAlt	Posted - 2007.12.10 16:57:00 - [5] Originally by: An Anarchyyt I love alt whines. What makes you think I'm an alt anyway thats hardly relevant to my point, is it... 8-12bn for a ship which can jump haul two rorquals worth of stuff is beyond stupidity but hey they'll probably look shiny with this amazing new Trinity graphics engine so who cares
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.12.10 16:58:00 - [6] I like how you don't have enough belief in your assertion to support it with your main. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Mrs CynoAlt	Posted - 2007.12.10 17:01:00 - [7] Originally by: Tarminic I like how you don't have enough belief in your assertion to support it with your main. this isnt about 'belief', its a statement of fact the raw material and invention cost for the first jump freighter BPC's we're seeing IS approx 8bn if YOU think it isnt, prove it - I sure as hell can
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.12.10 17:04:00 - [8] I'm merely suggesting that your argument that Jump Freighters will go relatively unused would look stronger if you were willing to support it with your main character, which you aren't. As such, your credibility it lacking. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Mrs CynoAlt	Posted - 2007.12.10 17:06:00 - [9] Originally by: Tarminic I'm merely suggesting that your argument that Jump Freighters will go relatively unused would look stronger if you were willing to support it with your main character, which you aren't. As such, your credibility it lacking. Where have I said they will be unused? I made no such judgement, learn to read and stop trolling. They ARE costing 8bn to produce, they WILL sell for that or more. There is the statement of fact - do with it as you wish. What character I use to post this information is entirely irrelevent but do carry on with your pointless trolling if it pleases you.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.12.10 17:08:00 - [10] Actually, it is entirely relevant that you won't stand behind your post enough to post with your main character. Hiding behind an alt gives you a hell of a lot less credibility. If you can't understand that, then I am very sorry for you. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.12.10 17:12:00 - [11] Quote: anyway thats hardly relevant to my point, is it... 8-12bn for a ship which can jump haul two rorquals worth of stuff is beyond stupidity You don't like it: you don't buy it. Simple as that. Besides your calculation is wrong. Of course if you buy at most expensive prices in Jita... your problem if you cannot find better sources.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.12.10 17:13:00 - [12] Originally by: Mrs CynoAlt Originally by: Tarminic I'm merely suggesting that your argument that Jump Freighters will go relatively unused would look stronger if you were willing to support it with your main character, which you aren't. As such, your credibility it lacking. Where have I said they will be unused? Ahem: Originally by: Mrs CynoAlt Thanks CCP but perhaps people might like to buy, say, 5-7 dreads instead and jump haul with them rather than this joke? Or two Roquals. You refer to the jump freighter as a joke, then suggest that people will use dreads instead. That seems to me that you're suggesting that Jump Freighters will go relatively unused. Attack me all you want, but my point stands that your argument would carry more weight if you posted with a character that might actually have some authority in the issue, like someone in an alliance. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.12.10 17:17:00 - [13] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 10/12/2007 17:23:21 Originally by: Mrs CynoAlt Originally by: An Anarchyyt I love alt whines. What makes you think I'm an alt Your name. And yes, they should have been tiers 2 and in a +/- 2b range (or "twice the Tech I" version). They have no use because of their price right now. Now, with these ships are price pre-nerfed, with jumproutes not working, and carriers nerfed, every 0.0 living alliance are in deep **** for resupply. 2isk
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.10 17:18:00 - [14] Originally by: Tarminic Attack me all you want, but my point stands that your argument would carry more weight if you posted with a character that might actually have some authority in the issue, like someone in an alliance. That is not an argument, it's a self-declaration as a gullible fool who would rather believe something if it is said by someone in an alliance. If you don't believe his numbers, calculate them for yourself. "...been designed for one purpose and one purpose only. Imagine a handful of repair drones pouring from the carebear's mouth. Now imagine they have um, nothing." -Unknown Hel redesigner (2007)
Si Delane Sector 7 Visions of Warfare	Posted - 2007.12.10 17:21:00 - [15] Originally by: Mrs CynoAlt Originally by: Tarminic I'm merely suggesting that your argument that Jump Freighters will go relatively unused would look stronger if you were willing to support it with your main character, which you aren't. As such, your credibility it lacking. Where have I said they will be unused? I made no such judgement, learn to read and stop trolling. They ARE costing 8bn to produce, they WILL sell for that or more. There is the statement of fact - do with it as you wish. What character I use to post this information is entirely irrelevent but do carry on with your pointless trolling if it pleases you. Accused Tarminic of trolling in Eve General? Say it isn't so. Posting in a 0.0 logistics alt whine thread for the win. ------------------------- Actually this IS my main.
Topaz Skydiver Minmatar Narrative Freshfood	Posted - 2007.12.10 17:22:00 - [16] Edited by: Topaz Skydiver on 10/12/2007 17:24:27 It will get used, especially, if it proves to be difficult to suicide. Someone will buy jump freighters, there are enough people and corps with enough isk and they'll use it to move big volumes with less jumps. And to be able to use gates and fly right into high-sec with it. Do I miss something ? If almost noone uses it, build requirements get changed anyway someday. So consider it pre-nerfed. ( Or the rorqual gets nerfed, but I don't hope so, because that ship is more in my league. ) --------------------------------------------- snip
OldWolfe The Scope	Posted - 2007.12.10 17:22:00 - [17] I just wanted to point out that a name a player choose to post under doesn't change the mathematical conclusion of any forms posted in this thread. The only way to counter a mathematical outcome is to counter it with another mathematical answer/perspective that proves the first math invalid or what not. Anyways, go back to having fun bickering.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.12.10 17:23:00 - [18] Originally by: OldWolfe I just wanted to point out that a name a player choose to post under doesn't change the mathematical conclusion of any forms posted in this thread. The only way to counter a mathematical outcome is to counter it with another mathematical answer/perspective that proves the first math invalid or what not. Anyways, go back to having fun bickering. Except that prices are not the same everywhere. And when posting with an alt like this, god only knows why we should believe any of those numbers. This is not differential equations, this is a whine, a disguised whine, but still a whine. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
OldWolfe The Scope	Posted - 2007.12.10 17:25:00 - [19] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: OldWolfe I just wanted to point out that a name a player choose to post under doesn't change the mathematical conclusion of any forms posted in this thread. The only way to counter a mathematical outcome is to counter it with another mathematical answer/perspective that proves the first math invalid or what not. Anyways, go back to having fun bickering. Except that prices are not the same everywhere. And when posting with an alt like this, god only knows why we should believe any of those numbers. This is not differential equations, this is a whine, a disguised whine, but still a whine. Like I said, counter it with another form of math that shows an alternative way at looking at this situation in order to put an end to OP's "whine". Thats all
Joza Gulikoza	Posted - 2007.12.10 17:28:00 - [20] If it's really going to be 8 billion maybe it would be worth to put in some effort building them. More people are inventing than ever, burning more advanced materials and there could be a problem if supply can't keep up with new demand. Ok not a big problem for moon miners must admit ;) I see it happening already invention slots are getting queued up to days and weeks even in my bottom end of Eve no one ever visits. And btw people whining about alts are even more annoying than alts themselves so can you please STFU.
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.10 17:31:00 - [21] advanced reactions 4tw :D ------ Proud Janitor of Tides of Silence
Harisdrop Gallente Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.12.10 17:32:00 - [22] OK, Is this someone complaining that something is too exspensive? HAHAHAHAHA. CCP only gives out bpc you can charge anything you want. Besides do you know that people pay for morphite hahahaha.
Hydraxian Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.12.10 17:35:00 - [23] Originally by: Erotic Irony In west philadelfia born and raised,on the playground where I spent most of my days Chilling out, maxing, relaxing all cool And all shooting some b-ball outside of the school when a couple of guys said "weÆre up in no good" Started making trouble in my neighbourhood. I got in one little fight and my mom got scared, and said "youÆre moving with your aunte and uncle in bel-air" Epic Post
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.10 17:39:00 - [24] Originally by: Erotic Irony ur wrong, the actual cost is much lower because, Now this is the story all about how, My life got flipped, turned upside down And IÆd like to take a minute just sit right there IÆll tell you how I became the prince of a town called bel-air. In west philadelfia born and raised,on the playground where I spent most of my days Chilling out, maxing, relaxing all cool And all shooting some b-ball outside of the school when a couple of guys said "weÆre up in no good" Started making trouble in my neighbourhood. I got in one little fight and my mom got scared, and said "youÆre moving with your aunte and uncle in bel-air" YOU WIN. THREAD OFFICIALLY CLOSED. TYVM FOR POSTIN' --- planetary interaction idea!
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.10 17:40:00 - [25] Originally by: Tarminic Attack me all you want, but my point stands that your argument would carry more weight if you posted with a character that might actually have some authority in the issue, like someone in an alliance. Not that i really care about the original argument, but maybe if you attacked his arguments with your own examples instead of launching personal attacks you would seem like less of an asshat. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
Arenis Xemdal Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.10 17:41:00 - [26] If 120bil didn't stop people from buying Titans when they were invulnerable, and 30bil for Motherships when they were invulnerable.. how is 10bil going to stop a carebear from getting a massive chubbie with Jump Freighters?
AMD383 The X-Trading Company Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.12.10 17:47:00 - [27] CCP4TL At this you see the T2 Obi whit the "Stolen Formulas" 1.6er Decryptor. This give you whit skills 4/4/4 [Gallente Encryption Methods,Gallentean Starship Engineering,Mechanical Engineering] a around 76% sure changes. This mean ...... you need min 2 BPOs for ONE T2 BPC. OK 2x 1.75B for Obi BPO 6weeks for the copies whit out Lab make a base price for a copy up to 450M Then 2x 64 Datacore - Gallentean Starship Engineering ea ~300k = 38,4M + 2x 64 Datacore - Mechanical Engineering ea ~1.4m = 179,2M + 2x Stolen Formulas ea ~70M = 140M -------------------------------------------- 6weeks and 1257.6M ISK for a single run !!! Only Invention cost this only !!! After this you can start to build your SINGEL run copy of a T2 Obi ...... Need only 4weeks and 60% base wastage. BTW a Rorquale cost 2B and need 2weeks and this have slots for self def .... Sorry CCP EPIC FAIL
Admiral Annihilation Ganja Labs Pure.	Posted - 2007.12.10 17:50:00 - [28] Originally by: Erotic Irony ur wrong, the actual cost is much lower because, Now this is the story all about how, My life got flipped, turned upside down And IÆd like to take a minute just sit right there IÆll tell you how I became the prince of a town called bel-air. In west philadelfia born and raised,on the playground where I spent most of my days Chilling out, maxing, relaxing all cool And all shooting some b-ball outside of the school when a couple of guys said "weÆre up in no good" Started making trouble in my neighbourhood. I got in one little fight and my mom got scared, and said "youÆre moving with your aunte and uncle in bel-air" Awesome execution, 9/10! -------------------------------------
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:02:00 - [29] Originally by: Erotic Irony ur wrong, the actual cost is much lower because, Now this is the story all about how, My life got flipped, turned upside down And IÆd like to take a minute just sit right there IÆll tell you how I became the prince of a town called bel-air. In west philadelfia born and raised,on the playground where I spent most of my days Chilling out, maxing, relaxing all cool And all shooting some b-ball outside of the school when a couple of guys said "weÆre up in no good" Started making trouble in my neighbourhood. I got in one little fight and my mom got scared, and said "youÆre moving with your aunte and uncle in bel-air" Worst bel-air ever. Actually, I don't think it even counts. Go back to gaia. The only thing worse than 4chan memes outside 4chan is poor attempts at 4chan memes outside 4chan. - DesuSigs
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:05:00 - [30] geesh.. you'd think people could wait at least a month for the market to settle before firing up the whambulance. but then again, i've been hearing sirens non-stop since the 24 hr DT ended. The official goon buzz-kill.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:05:00 - [31] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Erotic Irony ur wrong, the actual cost is much lower because, Now this is the story all about how, My life got flipped, turned upside down And IÆd like to take a minute just sit right there IÆll tell you how I became the prince of a town called bel-air. In west philadelfia born and raised,on the playground where I spent most of my days Chilling out, maxing, relaxing all cool And all shooting some b-ball outside of the school when a couple of guys said "weÆre up in no good" Started making trouble in my neighbourhood. I got in one little fight and my mom got scared, and said "youÆre moving with your aunte and uncle in bel-air" Worst bel-air ever. Actually, I don't think it even counts. Go back to gaia. The only thing worse than 4chan memes outside 4chan is poor attempts at 4chan memes outside 4chan. noticed that you added a new sig to your collection --- planetary interaction idea!
Ma'kal Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:07:00 - [32] Edited by: Ma''kal on 10/12/2007 18:08:58 Originally by: Tarminic Actually, it is entirely relevant that you won't stand behind your post enough to post with your main character. Hiding behind an alt gives you a hell of a lot less credibility. If you can't understand that, then I am very sorry for you. Argumentum ad hominem: This is a special kind of non sequitur in which it is concluded that a person's ideas need not be considered because of some personal characteristic which in fact is irrelevant to the ideas under discussion. Examples: 'Von Daniken's books about ancient astronauts are worthless because he is a convicted forger and embezzler.' 'The contributions of Oscar Wilde to literature cannot be taken seriously. He was, after all, a skeptic, a cynic and a blatant homosexual.'
Apocryphai Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:15:00 - [33] Originally by: Tarminic I like how you don't have enough belief in your assertion to support it with your main. Interesting how you forum warriors have decided to pick this particular thread to make a "stand" about forum alt posts, when there's alts all over the forums. Is there a vested interest here, hmm? ________________________________________________________________ Originally by: Victor Valka What the skull-chick said.
Admiral Nova Strike Team Nova	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:17:00 - [34] I'm getting between 3.3 and 4.4bn isk just in advanced materials for the Anshar. + invention cost + Obelisk + morphite and construction blocks. So upwards of 6bn to make.. I think they've missed their target by about double. :\
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:17:00 - [35] Er...just for the record, I never said that I cared whether he posted with a main or an alt, just that generally it would give his argument more credibility. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
OldWolfe The Scope	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:26:00 - [36] Originally by: Tarminic Er...just for the record, I never said that I cared whether he posted with a main or an alt, just that generally it would give his argument more credibility. How will whatever character a person uses to post mathematical information make the 1+1=2 any more creditable? All I'm saying is that posting on any characters does not have much weight when it comes to doing math because the true weight of credibility lies not in the character used to post in, but in the math done within the thread. That alone will support or destroy the OP's (or anyone) stances and thoughts behind something and for something, regardless of who they are.
000Hunter000 Gallente Magners Marauders	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:26:00 - [37] Originally by: Lisento Slaven I'll ask the question then...why do these things cost so much and do so little? Cuz a few alliances had problems shipping their carebearing goods around offcourse. CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!! Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
Jimer Lins Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:28:00 - [38] It'll sell if the cost of buying it can be offset by its use, just like anything else. Since a freighter is a long-term investment, they'll sell. --
An Anarchyyt Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:32:00 - [39] Originally by: OldWolfe Originally by: Tarminic Er...just for the record, I never said that I cared whether he posted with a main or an alt, just that generally it would give his argument more credibility. How will whatever character a person uses to post mathematical information make the 1+1=2 any more creditable? All I'm saying is that posting on any characters does not have much weight when it comes to doing math because the true weight of credibility lies not in the character used to post in, but in the math done within the thread. That alone will support or destroy the OP's (or anyone) stances and thoughts behind something and for something, regardless of who they are. X + Y = Z is a lot different than known values that can not change. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Lysit Kaune Minmatar Phoenix Division Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:34:00 - [40] Originally by: Tarminic Er...just for the record, I never said that I cared whether he posted with a main or an alt, just that generally it would give his argument more credibility. Yes, but likely only to people who are a bit slow or are inclinded to prejudge. The fact you felt the need to point out the Alt-ness puts you somewhere near to that crowd, otherwise you would have addressed the point at hand (Which might not be well made, but you glossed over that for some reason).
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:35:00 - [41] Originally by: OldWolfe All I'm saying is that posting on any characters does not have much weight when it comes to doing math because the true weight of credibility lies not in the character used to post in, but in the math done within the thread. That alone will support or destroy the OP's (or anyone) stances and thoughts behind something and for something, regardless of who they are. Had the OP shown their math I most likely would not have said anything - but they made an assertion about the build costs, then used that as the basis for another assertion that was actually a whine (which as you know I have a low tolerance for), without actually using any math. As such I was skeptical of the OP's qualifications. In hindsight it appears that I may have overstepped reason with my skepticism, and if so I apologize. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
OldWolfe The Scope	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:35:00 - [42] Edited by: OldWolfe on 10/12/2007 18:36:01 Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: OldWolfe Originally by: Tarminic Er...just for the record, I never said that I cared whether he posted with a main or an alt, just that generally it would give his argument more credibility. How will whatever character a person uses to post mathematical information make the 1+1=2 any more creditable? All I'm saying is that posting on any characters does not have much weight when it comes to doing math because the true weight of credibility lies not in the character used to post in, but in the math done within the thread. That alone will support or destroy the OP's (or anyone) stances and thoughts behind something and for something, regardless of who they are. X + Y = Z is a lot different than known values that can not change. You're missing my point. A poster that posts mathematical information will use that to make him/herself into a creditable source, NOT the who of the character that makes the information creditable.
Valia Deluri Cirrius Technologies O X I D E	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:35:00 - [43] hmm so let me get this straight. 2 bill for a roqual, 2-3 sets of jumps with carrier escort vs jump freighter 4.5 bil , 1 jump with carrier escort. So I mine some more veld for my day back when I want to jump stuff to empire or back. Give me a break. no self respecting carebear is gonna blink twice at the cost of a jump freighter vs the time we'll get back with it. Lets not even talk about time back fueling POSes. Code of Deluri Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I cannot accept, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of those people I had to kill today.
Ms Tolarri Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:43:00 - [44] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Erotic Irony ur wrong, the actual cost is much lower because, Now this is the story all about how, My life got flipped, turned upside down And IÆd like to take a minute just sit right there IÆll tell you how I became the prince of a town called bel-air. In west philadelfia born and raised,on the playground where I spent most of my days Chilling out, maxing, relaxing all cool And all shooting some b-ball outside of the school when a couple of guys said "weÆre up in no good" Started making trouble in my neighbourhood. I got in one little fight and my mom got scared, and said "youÆre moving with your aunte and uncle in bel-air" YOU WIN. THREAD OFFICIALLY CLOSED. TYVM FOR POSTIN' It was a fail attempt at bel-airing the thread... Srsly, it sucked big hairy ****nipples.
Reprimander The Littlest Hobos Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:08:00 - [45] Originally by: Empyre geesh.. you'd think people could wait at least a month for the market to settle before firing up the whambulance. but then again, i've been hearing sirens non-stop since the 24 hr DT ended. Actually, We're not talking about market blips here, we're talking about build cost based on advanced reaction material - log in your jita market alt and take a look yourself These prices will only increase, since there is a finite and fixed number of decent moons/reaction in the game, and an ever increasing demand due to invention... these ships use massive amounts of advanced reaction material. Based on their build + invention cost alone, you are looking at 7bn-ish, maybe a little more. The market will stablise at 8bn IF WE ARE LUCKY! Otherwise, 10-12bn sounds reasonable - which is a crazy price, really, considering two rorquals costing 4bn can do the same thing.
Admiral Nova Strike Team Nova	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:11:00 - [46] If CCP want to do anything about this they have just days left before these start being cooked, and people start getting really really annoyed at any 'late' changes.
Nova Fox	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:33:00 - [47] There where talks about using bpos in invention to increase chances and cut down on copying times as well. Not sure if we are going to see that any time soon but it will definetly make things alot better(also bpos wont be lost just cant copy or research them during that time). But the roquel argument is sorta lame considering most people cant fly the damn ship while many could possibly get in a jump freighter easily if they are already a freighter pilot and a carrier pilot. I mean hell I can fly one in a 3 weeks as opposed to a roquels 2 months for me. Also the more you haul with other ships the higher they get on the list of to be nerfed next list. I like dreads the way they are leave em alone please or add too, stop taking away. Prices? little high imo but meh mabey theyll adjust it eventually or if bpo invention falls though, however in line of t1 vs t2 its almost fair, most t2 are about 10x more than thier t1 counterparts one upon a time before invention but its still close to 5x higher now adays. Usefulness, cmon a jumping capitol ship thats allowed in empire and can use gates to do the shopping? Id take that feature over the roquel anyday, so that way the same pilot that does the big haul can go shopping at the same time. Lack of fuel bays on capitols, honestly i think all caps need a fuel bay for thier jump drives and only the fuel they use for jump and seige will be allowed in it. this would make space on the jump freighter more useful. And post with your main or turn you amarrdamned allaince and corp flags on if you wanted to be more credible tbh because right now im sure that the only time we are going to see your name pop up in our address books in the game is when you log on to open a cyno and log back off when done or when you have to get fuel :P.
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:44:00 - [48] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Erotic Irony ur wrong, the actual cost is much lower because, Now this is the story all about how, My life got flipped, turned upside down And IÆd like to take a minute just sit right there IÆll tell you how I became the prince of a town called bel-air. In west philadelfia born and raised,on the playground where I spent most of my days Chilling out, maxing, relaxing all cool And all shooting some b-ball outside of the school when a couple of guys said "weÆre up in no good" Started making trouble in my neighbourhood. I got in one little fight and my mom got scared, and said "youÆre moving with your aunte and uncle in bel-air" YOU WIN. THREAD OFFICIALLY CLOSED. TYVM FOR POSTIN' It would be funny if it was original. It's not. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:46:00 - [49] Originally by: Reprimander Actually, We're not talking about market blips here, we're talking about build cost based on advanced reaction material - log in your jita market alt and take a look yourself i am, and yes i understand how the market works. and if you understand a free market, you'll know that new products are always introduced at ridiculous prices. people tend to scale up rather than down when it comes to unsettled pricing. and as far as the 'limited number of moons' argument goes, i'm not buying it. i dare you to take one region and just fly around with a pod checking how many moons are actually being utilized between lo-sec and 0.0. it's low. then gaze a while and see what the turn-around is on these operations due to hostilities, laziness in fueling or just boredom. there's plenty to go around. the true problem is getting them regularly farmed to keep the materials on the market long enough to have competition between vendors so the price comes down. supply vs demand and competition drives prices down in a free market. in most places i've seen, supply is there but never fully utilized, demand is not consistent (which is why a lot of manufacturers enter into private contracts with other manufacturers) and competition comes and goes with the tides. if there were stable markets created and sustained in places other than Jita, Rens, Amarr and the like then you'd probably see a much better level of competition and prices on new items that stabilize much more quickly. but it's just not the way things work right now. The official goon buzz-kill.
Reprimander The Littlest Hobos Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:49:00 - [50] Originally by: Empyre Originally by: Reprimander Actually, We're not talking about market blips here, we're talking about build cost based on advanced reaction material - log in your jita market alt and take a look yourself i am, and yes i understand how the market works. and if you understand a free market, you'll know that new products are always introduced at ridiculous prices. But 8bn is not a ridiculous price, its a very reasonable price CONSIDERING how much they cost to build. We'd be lucky to get them for that price on the open market. This is nothing to do with it being new and shiny, its just how much it is going to cost to build. And that price, which is determined by a finite supply of reaction materials, ain't going down unless something big changes.
OldWolfe The Scope	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:50:00 - [51] So the jump freighter can make cyno jumps in empire space without using jump gates?
Mrs CynoAlt	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:51:00 - [52] Originally by: Nova Fox im sure that the only time we are going to see your name pop up in our address books in the game is when you log on to open a cyno and log back off when done or when you have to get fuel :P. HOW VERY DARE YOU
Reprimander The Littlest Hobos Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.10 20:01:00 - [53] http://www.eve-guides.com/bugs/ark.jpg This is the breakdown of raw Ark build cost which someone posted on the industry forum today - excluding invention cost of approx 1bn. BPC's coming out are in the -4 ME range, so we're talking about a 7bn-ish total build cost. Add a modest profit, and thats 8bn MINIMUM. My understanding is that stated cost would be in the 3bn range, so CCP are way off the mark with this.
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2007.12.10 20:16:00 - [54] Originally by: Reprimander Originally by: Empyre Originally by: Reprimander Actually, We're not talking about market blips here, we're talking about build cost based on advanced reaction material - log in your jita market alt and take a look yourself i am, and yes i understand how the market works. and if you understand a free market, you'll know that new products are always introduced at ridiculous prices. But 8bn is not a ridiculous price, its a very reasonable price CONSIDERING how much they cost to build. We'd be lucky to get them for that price on the open market. This is nothing to do with it being new and shiny, its just how much it is going to cost to build. And that price, which is determined by a finite supply of reaction materials, ain't going down unless something big changes. i understand that, but you're missing the point. when the price is realized (people will inevitably buy them, even if only a few at first) then people will start farming components to create more parts. this will create competition amongst suppliers, driving the price down. if anything, this could ultimately bring DOWN the price on other caps as well as the jump freighters. but markets take time to mature and adapt to changes. The official goon buzz-kill.
Gort Storm Guard Elite	Posted - 2007.12.10 20:54:00 - [55] This game is in a developmental death spiral of complexity. -- When in doubt, empty the magazine.
Reprimander The Littlest Hobos Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.10 21:18:00 - [56] Edited by: Reprimander on 10/12/2007 21:21:04 Originally by: Empyre i understand that, but you're missing the point. when the price is realized (people will inevitably buy them, even if only a few at first) then people will start farming components to create more parts. this will create competition amongst suppliers, driving the price down. if anything, this could ultimately bring DOWN the price on other caps as well as the jump freighters. but markets take time to mature and adapt to changes. er, no - you dont appear to understand that a jump freighter is a T2 ship, not a standard capital ship... its price depends on the fixed supply of moon minerals You cannot 'farm' more components. The supply of decent moon minerals is is fixed. You can't just 'make some more' because you want to, and pretty much every decent reaction chain in the whole universe IS being farmed. You think prices are high now? Without extra supply, you aint seen nothing yet.
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2007.12.10 21:43:00 - [57] Originally by: Reprimander Edited by: Reprimander on 10/12/2007 21:21:04 Originally by: Empyre i understand that, but you're missing the point. when the price is realized (people will inevitably buy them, even if only a few at first) then people will start farming components to create more parts. this will create competition amongst suppliers, driving the price down. if anything, this could ultimately bring DOWN the price on other caps as well as the jump freighters. but markets take time to mature and adapt to changes. er, no - you dont appear to understand that a jump freighter is a T2 ship, not a standard capital ship... its price depends on the fixed supply of moon minerals You cannot 'farm' more components. The supply of decent moon minerals is is fixed. You can't just 'make some more' because you want to, and pretty much every decent reaction chain in the whole universe IS being farmed. You think prices are high now? Without extra supply, you aint seen nothing yet. and like i said.. prove to me all the moon minerals are 'taken' and i'll prove to you otherwise. i've recently been scouting several moons myself and the moons are kind of bare. several secure cans anchored, but those don't mine much in the way of components. The official goon buzz-kill.
Alz Shado Ever Flow Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.10 21:44:00 - [58] But think of how nice it will be, once these freighters cyno in/out of Jita at whim instead of having to make the long jump to the gate.
Reprimander The Littlest Hobos Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.10 21:53:00 - [59] Originally by: Empyre Originally by: Reprimander Edited by: Reprimander on 10/12/2007 21:21:04 Originally by: Empyre i understand that, but you're missing the point. when the price is realized (people will inevitably buy them, even if only a few at first) then people will start farming components to create more parts. this will create competition amongst suppliers, driving the price down. if anything, this could ultimately bring DOWN the price on other caps as well as the jump freighters. but markets take time to mature and adapt to changes. er, no - you dont appear to understand that a jump freighter is a T2 ship, not a standard capital ship... its price depends on the fixed supply of moon minerals You cannot 'farm' more components. The supply of decent moon minerals is is fixed. You can't just 'make some more' because you want to, and pretty much every decent reaction chain in the whole universe IS being farmed. You think prices are high now? Without extra supply, you aint seen nothing yet. and like i said.. prove to me all the moon minerals are 'taken' and i'll prove to you otherwise. i've recently been scouting several moons myself and the moons are kind of bare. several secure cans anchored, but those don't mine much in the way of components. Every single moon carrying a decent metal is scouted, mined, and fully accounted for. That my friend is a fact. Supply is finite, and in the case of minerals like dysprosium, has been mined at full capacity for a long time already. Now there is a much increased demand, and we start to notice the bottleneck all the more.
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.12.10 22:22:00 - [60] I agree that all the good moons are being mined. There are slight wobbles as territory changes hands, etc, but overall its not like you can wander around and find unclaimed good moons. There was another thread where this was pointed out, and CCP gave a cryptic reply about looking to increase the supply. The problem is that Moon Harvesting Array II's won't help (Anyone ever find any double-abundance Dysporioum?) That leaves the only viable alternative as allowing Empire Moon Mining. If people are allowed to Moon Mine in Empire, it will be fun to see the slaughters that occur over them. Can you imagine how many diffent groups would shoot a Dysporioum moon in Jita? All in all, I say Bring On stuff that needs more moon minerals. With all the problems fueling the damm Pos's, I NEED some sort of Liquid Gold flowing out of them.
Alora Venoda Caldari GalTech Giant Space Amoeba	Posted - 2007.12.10 22:45:00 - [61] Edited by: Alora Venoda on 10/12/2007 22:45:11 lots of moons are rather empty... i dont see why a few couldn't suddenly get some nice minerals "discovered". ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
Racona	Posted - 2007.12.11 01:30:00 - [62] Originally by: Alora Venoda Edited by: Alora Venoda on 10/12/2007 22:45:11 lots of moons are rather empty... i dont see why a few couldn't suddenly get some nice minerals "discovered". Because every moon in the game has been scanned, almost every 0.0 region (every?) has readily available texts listing EVERY moon in the region and their contents. These lists was done a very long time ago when moon mining first was introduced and the alliances that lived there scanned the entire regions and made these lists available to their corps. Every moon of any value is mined, I challenge you to find one that isn't. Even as a region changes hands once the POS is destroyed the people taking control WILL have a new POS moon mining that moon ASAP. Like was said, these high ends are liquid gold. Billions a week from these moons. It is naive to assume that all the moons that can be mined haven't been scanned and that theres good ones left. VERY naive. The OP has a very strong argument. With all the new T2 and invention and ships (like T2 BSs) that use huge amounts of components, there is no reason to assume t2 components will drop in price anytime soon unless CCP introduces more high end moons or increases their output (I vote more moons!)
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2007.12.11 01:35:00 - [63] Originally by: Reprimander Every single moon carrying a decent metal is scouted, mined, and fully accounted for. That my friend is a fact. Supply is finite, and in the case of minerals like dysprosium, has been mined at full capacity for a long time already. Now there is a much increased demand, and we start to notice the bottleneck all the more. sorry, not buying it. i know you want to be right, but a corp i'm kind of close with just found 2 in a row. granted, the best will ALWAYS go more quickly than anything else, but you've gotta start somewhere. ccp isn't going to make every moon that can be mined super profitable just so everyone gets a 'good one'. but unless you mean 'every moon except the ones i don't want are taken' then i'm not buying your argument. i'm simply in game seeing much differently. and i'm only getting visibility in 3 different regions. i have high doubts you've scanned every moon in every region. i know you want to be right here but it's just not holding water with what anyone that can scan moons can see. The official goon buzz-kill.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.12.11 01:35:00 - [64] they will be worth under 4 billion soon enough until they do their value will be over 15 billion so catch one while they are still that important what do you think the carrier cargohold change and mineral compression at the same time did? oh hi 0.0 with lots of players needing items and not enough miners to supply the needs for the producers Trashed sig, Shark was here
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Fnck the blob.	Posted - 2007.12.11 01:42:00 - [65] Originally by: Erotic Irony ur wrong, the actual cost is much lower because, Now this is the story all about how, My life got flipped, turned upside down And IÆd like to take a minute just sit right there IÆll tell you how I became the prince of a town called bel-air. In west philadelfia born and raised,on the playground where I spent most of my days Chilling out, maxing, relaxing all cool And all shooting some b-ball outside of the school when a couple of guys said "weÆre up in no good" Started making trouble in my neighbourhood. I got in one little fight and my mom got scared, and said "youÆre moving with your aunte and uncle in bel-air"
Racona	Posted - 2007.12.11 01:45:00 - [66] Originally by: Empyre personally i think it's naive to think every moon in the entire eve is scanned and mined.. especially when you're out there seeing differently yourself. do you people seriously know how many moons there are out there? have you even gone out in a pod or covops to check them out? i feel like i'm talking to bill o'lielly here, trying to convince someone that has accepted third hand information as biblical truth despite the facts. I'm 100% sure your confused by what is meant by a "good moon." Cadmium, Caesium, Chromium, Cobolt, Dysprosium, Hafnium, Mercury, Neodymium, Platinum, Promethium, Scandium, Technetium, Thulium, Titanium, Tungsten, Vanadium, are your metals. Of those only Dysprosium & Promethium are "good" metals. The others are either "ok" to "worthless" but those two metals control the majority of the t2 production cost. In each region theres only 2-4 of those moons. I challenge you to find a moon of those two metals not taken.
konkord eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.11 01:46:00 - [67] Originally by: Mrs CynoAlt The raw material cost from advanced reactions is well over 4bn, plus 500m+ invention costs, 1bn for the base ships, yet more isk for other material like morphite etc, add a reasonable profit and you're looking at 8bn as a realistic minimum. Thanks CCP but perhaps people might like to buy, say, 5-7 dreads instead and jump haul with them rather than this joke? Or two Roquals. tbh, there was no reason for this ship to be T2 to begin with. Ridiculous is the word. well then brainiac, try mining for it instead of buying market price. those big 0.0 alliances wont bat an eyelid at that kind of expenditure for its hauling capacity. Boo hoo, it's not a market winner.
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2007.12.11 01:49:00 - [68] Originally by: Racona Originally by: Empyre personally i think it's naive to think every moon in the entire eve is scanned and mined.. especially when you're out there seeing differently yourself. do you people seriously know how many moons there are out there? have you even gone out in a pod or covops to check them out? i feel like i'm talking to bill o'lielly here, trying to convince someone that has accepted third hand information as biblical truth despite the facts. I'm 100% sure your confused by what is meant by a "good moon." Cadmium, Caesium, Chromium, Cobolt, Dysprosium, Hafnium, Mercury, Neodymium, Platinum, Promethium, Scandium, Technetium, Thulium, Titanium, Tungsten, Vanadium, are your metals. Of those only Dysprosium & Promethium are "good" metals. The others are either "ok" to "worthless" but those two metals control the majority of the t2 production cost. In each region theres only 2-4 of those moons. I challenge you to find a moon of those two metals not taken. and there you have it. if i approached business with 'i can't be the best, screw it i'm not trying' then i'd never even get started. i've met literally hundreds of people in this game that aren't satisfied unless they have the best of the best of everything.. and throw tantrums and complain when it doesn't happen. but don't tell me you can't make a profit from anything but two components.. i've made good money off vanadium before. the only problem is that everyone wants to be at the top and no one wants to climb the ladder to get there. The official goon buzz-kill.
Cadiz Caldari No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.12.11 02:22:00 - [69] Edited by: Cadiz on 11/12/2007 02:26:11 There's tons of slack room in midrange materials like mercury, technetium, and the like, but the real high ends (namely promethium and dysprosium) are already being worked at nearly 100% capacity. Admittedly, there are hiccups going on right now because the war in the south has destroyed several regions worth of reaction chains and I'm sure a lot of the northern infrastructure is still getting itself reestablished, but CCP could probably do with adding some more r64 materials to empty or gases-only moons. ------ Director, No Quarter "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the judicious application of violence."
Vanna Phirun A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.12.11 02:47:00 - [70] Originally by: Empyre and there you have it. if i approached business with 'i can't be the best, screw it i'm not trying' then i'd never even get started. i've met literally hundreds of people in this game that aren't satisfied unless they have the best of the best of everything.. and throw tantrums and complain when it doesn't happen. but don't tell me you can't make a profit from anything but two components.. i've made good money off vanadium before. the only problem is that everyone wants to be at the top and no one wants to climb the ladder to get there. Ok, so you sell your Thulium f.e. for 1200 isk p.u. in Jita. Fuel cost for a small moon mining tower is approxiamtely 60k isk per hour. So you want to tell me it's profitable (I'm talking about game time) to run a POS for 10m profit a week? With having to haul 17k m3 to Jita and fuel back to the tower every week? I'd rather go shoot two bs spawns in the belts...
Cadiz Caldari No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.12.11 03:00:00 - [71] Originally by: Vanna Phirun Ok, so you sell your Thulium f.e. for 1200 isk p.u. in Jita. Fuel cost for a small moon mining tower is approxiamtely 60k isk per hour. So you want to tell me it's profitable (I'm talking about game time) to run a POS for 10m profit a week? With having to haul 17k m3 to Jita and fuel back to the tower every week? I'd rather go shoot two bs spawns in the belts... Trying to sell raw moon materials usually sucks. Reactions 4tw. ------ Director, No Quarter "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the judicious application of violence."
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2007.12.11 03:07:00 - [72] Originally by: Vanna Phirun Ok, so you sell your Thulium f.e. for 1200 isk p.u. in Jita. Fuel cost for a small moon mining tower is approxiamtely 60k isk per hour. So you want to tell me it's profitable (I'm talking about game time) to run a POS for 10m profit a week? With having to haul 17k m3 to Jita and fuel back to the tower every week? I'd rather go shoot two bs spawns in the belts... and this is why jita is crashed all the time. no creativity in process at ALL. you're better off shooting the bs spawns in the belts tbh. leave carebearing to the folks with some patience and drive. you could run your own reactions, mine fuel to reduce costs, create a hauler alt to do the heavy moving, find markets elsewhere to move your goods and use sell orders at main pipe entrances, the list goes on. if making lots of isk were as easy as picking a single item and moving it from point A to point B once a week then everyone would be rich for crying out loud. reducing overhead cost, projecting costs and preparing by investing elsewhere, all these things are part of running a business. the guy selling watches on the street isn't going to make near as much as the guy that built up a factory and starting churning them out by the thousands. it's a choice you make but it doesn't make the options not available just because you've decided they won't work. The official goon buzz-kill.
Elmicker The Scope	Posted - 2007.12.11 03:15:00 - [73] Edited by: Elmicker on 11/12/2007 03:15:07 Originally by: Vanna Phirun you could run your own reactions, mine fuel to reduce costs, create a hauler alt to do the heavy moving, find markets elsewhere to move your goods and use sell orders at main pipe entrances, the list goes on. None of these things reduce your costs or increase your profits, except maybe finding the new market, but then no one goes anywhere else for reaction products except jita.
Cadiz Caldari No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.12.11 03:18:00 - [74] Edited by: Cadiz on 11/12/2007 03:18:28 Originally by: Elmicker Edited by: Elmicker on 11/12/2007 03:15:07 Originally by: Vanna Phirun you could run your own reactions, mine fuel to reduce costs, create a hauler alt to do the heavy moving, find markets elsewhere to move your goods and use sell orders at main pipe entrances, the list goes on. None of these things reduce your costs or increase your profits, except maybe finding the new market, but then no one goes anywhere else for reaction products except jita. I've actually had moderate success selling complex reaction products outside of Jita. Sure, stock doesn't move as quickly, but it will sell with a little patience, and people are often willing to pay a bit more in exchange for the convenience of not having to slog all the way to Jita. Of course, if you need a quick cash-in, then patience may not be an option. And actually yes, running reactions will increase your profits. Many - most? - complex reactions out there sell for more than their constituent materials would if you put them up on the market raw. ------ Director, No Quarter "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the judicious application of violence."
KillTheScout	Posted - 2007.12.11 03:25:00 - [75] Edited by: KillTheScout on 11/12/2007 03:24:57 This is probably the best argument presented so far either in favor or against the jump-freighters. IMO, with their current cost, only large alliances with lots of isk will be able to afford them. Small corps/alliances that relied on the carriers for their logistics have been *ed in the rear with this change. like a lot of the other changes brought in with Trinity, this one seems like it really wasn't thought through completely. And now they're introducing so many changes (some nerfs, some not), that Eve is getting waaaay to complex. So complex that fixing a little thing they think is wrong breaks 20 other things. IMO, Jump freighters=Ok Idea. TERRIBLE implementation. yes, I'm an alt. So sue me. Originally by:** Reprimander http://www.eve-guides.com/bugs/ark.jpg This is the breakdown of raw Ark build cost which someone posted on the industry forum today - excluding invention cost of approx 1bn. BPC's coming out are in the -4 ME range, so we're talking about a 7bn-ish total build cost. Add a modest profit, and thats 8bn MINIMUM. My understanding is that stated cost would be in the 3bn range, so CCP are way off the mark with this.
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2007.12.11 03:33:00 - [76] Edited by: Empyre on 11/12/2007 03:35:27 Originally by: Cadiz I've actually had moderate success selling complex reaction products outside of Jita. Sure, stock doesn't move as quickly, but it will sell with a little patience, and people are often willing to pay a bit more in exchange for the convenience of not having to slog all the way to Jita. Of course, if you need a quick cash-in, then patience may not be an option. And actually yes, running reactions will increase your profits. Many - most? - complex reactions out there sell for more than their constituent materials would if you put them up on the market raw. thank you thank you thank you. a voice of sense! was beginning to think i'd gone mad.. or that my sanity had become, aw nevermind. new markets, though. i forgot to mention that and you reminded me. think of new markets. find occupied areas of lo-sec, ESPECIALLY those engulfed in war, and the pipe going in and out are great places to start. mission hubs (just look for all the raven hulls) are also great. carebears have money and are willing to spend a little to save the flight, i do it all the time. get in a covops and scout moons in lo-sec/0.0 with capital shipyards. anyway, back to point.. starting new markets is lucrative IF you can maintain constant supply. think of it from the perspective of the buyer. if you were looking to buy a product and were used to jita hauls, you would need something not outrageously more expensive and in constant demand.. otherwise why bother? if you can provide that then all you need to do is find the customer, drop your proverbial lure into the market waters and wait for a bite, then keep feeding. eve is so complex if only in that its true openness in every respect, but here in the case of production and market, afford you the luxury of using real historical data and economic theories to make money in game. you're dealing with real people and a world that parallels reality enough. bottom line, if you want linearity go somewhere else or join a corp and ask to be told what to do. nothing wrong with it, i do it all the time on at least one toon. i just know in this case that what you're saying is impossible is indeed possible. Originally by: KillTheScout IMO, Jump freighters=Ok Idea. TERRIBLE implementation. ok?! i've been drooling over a rhea ever since i first heard the name jump freighter. didn't even have to hear any more to know i loved it. hearing about covert cynos only made me cry, for i had fallen in love with eve all over again. The official goon buzz-kill.
Cadiz Caldari No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.12.11 03:34:00 - [77] I kinda hate it that people keep screaming about how now that carriers are nerfed, they have no other choice but jump freighters for their logistics. That's a lie. The Rorqual is extremely competitive to the jump freighter, as it is more fuel-efficient per m3 moved, cheaper to build, is quite easy skillwise to get into (if your carrier pilot can fly a Covetor, they can fly the Rorq), has more established production infrastructure in place, can actually defend itself with a shield tank and some pretty nasty drone bonuses, plus it can help out with mineral compression and the like on top of being a very good jump logistics vessel. The single, sole, solitary reason to use a jump freighter instead is because you can move twice as much per trip, even though you're using three times the fuel. That's it. Jump freighters are pre-nerfed. Their bonuses from the Jump Freighter skill are pretty terrible, they chug way too much fuel per light year, and they cost a fortune thanks to their t2 status. If you want to argue that line, by all means, go ahead. But stop screaming that you're up the creek without a paddle when you've got very viable alternatives on the table. ------ Director, No Quarter "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the judicious application of violence."
Reprimander The Littlest Hobos Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.11 16:52:00 - [78] Originally by: Empyre Originally by: Racona Originally by: Empyre personally i think it's naive to think every moon in the entire eve is scanned and mined.. especially when you're out there seeing differently yourself. do you people seriously know how many moons there are out there? have you even gone out in a pod or covops to check them out? i feel like i'm talking to bill o'lielly here, trying to convince someone that has accepted third hand information as biblical truth despite the facts. I'm 100% sure your confused by what is meant by a "good moon." Cadmium, Caesium, Chromium, Cobolt, Dysprosium, Hafnium, Mercury, Neodymium, Platinum, Promethium, Scandium, Technetium, Thulium, Titanium, Tungsten, Vanadium, are your metals. Of those only Dysprosium & Promethium are "good" metals. The others are either "ok" to "worthless" but those two metals control the majority of the t2 production cost. In each region theres only 2-4 of those moons. I challenge you to find a moon of those two metals not taken. and there you have it. if i approached business with 'i can't be the best, screw it i'm not trying' then i'd never even get started. i've met literally hundreds of people in this game that aren't satisfied unless they have the best of the best of everything.. and throw tantrums and complain when it doesn't happen. but don't tell me you can't make a profit from anything but two components.. i've made good money off vanadium before. the only problem is that everyone wants to be at the top and no one wants to climb the ladder to get there. Are you deliberately missing the point here? We're telling you: the finite supply of top moon metals inflates the price of jump freighters, that EVERY SINGLE moon of this type is accounted for and mined already, and that this supply bottleneck is massively increasing the cost of T2 production and thus jump freighters.......... and you're off telling us some bizarre anacdote of the time you sold vanadium and made a bit of isk - well good for you but HOW IS THAT RELATED TO THE COST OF JUMP FREIGHTERS? Facts: Finite supply of top moon materials All good moons scouted and mined Increasing complex reaction prices due to supply bottlenecks 8bn ISK + for a jump freighter but why dont you tell us all again about the time you found some vandium or whatever... honestly its like trying to teach at a special school
Admiral Nova Strike Team Nova	Posted - 2007.12.11 17:21:00 - [79] Edited by: Admiral Nova on 11/12/2007 17:22:17 Originally by: Alz Shado But think of how nice it will be, once these freighters cyno in/out of Jita at whim instead of having to make the long jump to the gate. They can't cyno into Jita, and it was mentioned that they wouldn't be able to cyno out either. Originally by: Empyre and like i said.. prove to me all the moon minerals are 'taken' and i'll prove to you otherwise. i've recently been scouting several moons myself and the moons are kind of bare. several secure cans anchored, but those don't mine much in the way of components. Ah, not all moons have minerals, and those that do, usually don't have the ones we are short of. The 4 rarest types, I have scanned 2 entire regions, and found 1. The 'common' moon minerals there are no shortage, the 'rare' ones are most certainly all gone, since the incentive to find them is huge (those moons now make over 750mil/week) !!!! There are plenty of MOONS, just that most MOONS are USELESS! Supply is fixed, there must be 12-20 of these moons TOPS in ALL of eve, and they produce 100 units / hr, no matter what you do. YOU CAN NOT INCREASE SUPPLY NO MATTER HOW HIGH THE PRICE GOES !!! They also don't change, they have been the same since those moons were first seeded years ago. So their discovery is not something new that happens regularly. There is LOTS of slack in low ends, Platinum/Chromium etc. Dysprosium/Neodymium/Prometium will all be fully exploited, there's just no chance there's one of those sitting idle, they are incredibly rare and many people know where they all are. The problem has nothing to do with wanting a moon, making isk etc. The problem is the Supply of Dysprosium particularly, is fully exploited. Thus no matter how high the price goes, no more will be mined. I have scanned 2 whole regions and not found a single Dysprosium moon. That means there are probably 12-20 of these in total. That means that no matter how cheap invention gets, the price of T2 ships will start going up. Obviously, some of the prices of ships have 'new' markups on them. The point is currently, it's going to cost about 6-8bn isk just to 'build' a jump freighter, thus it will be likely selling for much more than that. (If it had the same markup as other new T2 ships it would go for more than a mothership :o). Anyway, their 'target' build cost was less than 3bn isk, it looks like they're going to miss this by more than double.
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2007.12.11 17:31:00 - [80] Edited by: Empyre on 11/12/2007 17:31:47 Originally by: Admiral Nova Dysprosium/Neodymium/Prometium will all be fully exploited, there's just no chance there's one of those sitting idle, they are incredibly rare and many people know where they all are. this is an absolute lie as i saw two of those found with my own eyes recently. but hey.. i'm done arguing this. if some of you want to believe this is true, go for it. that means a few less people out there trying to mine minerals from moons. so for extra clarification, DON'T BOTHER LOOKING FOR THE BEST MOON MINERALS! THEY ARE ALREADY TAKEN! all of them. no hope. we're all screwed and no one will ever be able to afford jump freighters. my life is over. edit: minerals, metals, components.. yeah, nitpick away. The official goon buzz-kill.
Ja'kar MAFIA	Posted - 2007.12.11 17:49:00 - [81] I like the idea of empire moons giving these mins out
Ma'kal Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.12.11 18:22:00 - [82] Originally by: Empyre so for extra clarification, DON'T BOTHER LOOKING FOR THE BEST MOON MINERALS! THEY ARE ALREADY TAKEN! all of them. no hope. we're all screwed and no one will ever be able to afford jump freighters. my life is over. edit: minerals, metals, components.. yeah, nitpick away. Well you could always blow up the POS that is there and take it for yourself. If your corp doesn't have the fire power there is a lot of corps / alliances that will sell you their firepower.
Reprimander The Littlest Hobos Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.11 18:36:00 - [83] Originally by: Empyre Edited by: Empyre on 11/12/2007 17:31:47 Originally by: Admiral Nova Dysprosium/Neodymium/Prometium will all be fully exploited, there's just no chance there's one of those sitting idle, they are incredibly rare and many people know where they all are. this is an absolute lie as i saw two of those found with my own eyes recently. but hey.. i'm done arguing this. if some of you want to believe this is true, go for it. that means a few less people out there trying to mine minerals from moons. so for extra clarification, DON'T BOTHER LOOKING FOR THE BEST MOON MINERALS! THEY ARE ALREADY TAKEN! all of them. no hope. we're all screwed and no one will ever be able to afford jump freighters. my life is over. edit: minerals, metals, components.. yeah, nitpick away. well I wouldnt worry, if you've managed to find two 'free' dyprosium moons (lol) you'll be able to afford your 8bn ISK jump freighter in about 45 days by just selling the raw somehow, though, I very much doubt you're talking sense - moon scanning is a common alliance activity in claimed space, there are extensive moon databases available... if you think you're the first person to have scanned a moon you're both wrong and niaive every single rarity 64 moon is accounted for - thats a fact that you simply can't change, and all your bizarre posts will not change the FACT that SUPPLY IS FIXED AND CANNOT INCREASE (unless CCP introduce more moons)
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.11 18:49:00 - [84] Originally by: Reprimander every single rarity 64 moon is accounted for - thats a fact that you simply can't change, and all your bizarre posts will not change the FACT that SUPPLY IS FIXED AND CANNOT INCREASE (unless CCP introduce more moons) I'm curious. What's the source of this information? But I'm more curious as to what the ratio of 'rare' stuff to 'not so rare' stuff is. I mean, there's a lot more titanium in the universe than promethium. But how much more titanium does an 'average' t2 production consume? I mean, it's not uncommon that the price of trit in a ship outweighs that of the one of the other materials - cheaper, but more of it demanded. I wouldn't be too suprised at all, to find CCP have already thought that through, and have actually got 'about' the right ratio of moons in EVE for the demand. Thing is, promethium/dysprosium _are_ very valuable. People fight for them. OK. But I still wouldn't be suprised in the slightest to find that the bottlenecks are in the lower tier moons. The ones that it's not worth 'running' 10 carrier jumps out into 0.0, because the profit doesn't justify it. As profit climbs, so too does the financial viability of exploitation. At the end of the day though, I'm pretty sure that increasing prices will mean less people buying, which in turn will mean less people inventing, and thus less overall demand on the materials, pushing prices back down again. There's a balance point in all these things, where the amount of 'effort' in running a POS, counterbalances the profit margin. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:03:00 - [85] Originally by: Reprimander this is an absolute lie as i saw two of those found with my own eyes recently. but hey.. i'm done arguing this. if some of you want to believe this is true, go for it. that means a few less people out there trying to mine minerals from moons. so for extra clarification, DON'T BOTHER LOOKING FOR THE BEST MOON MINERALS! THEY ARE ALREADY TAKEN! all of them. no hope. we're all screwed and no one will ever be able to afford jump freighters. my life is over. edit: minerals, metals, components.. yeah, nitpick away. well I wouldnt worry, if you've managed to find two 'free' dyprosium moons (lol) you'll be able to afford your 8bn ISK jump freighter in about 45 days by just selling the raw somehow, though, I very much doubt you're talking sense - moon scanning is a common alliance activity in claimed space, there are extensive moon databases available... if you think you're the first person to have scanned a moon you're both wrong and niaive every single rarity 64 moon is accounted for - thats a fact that you simply can't change, and all your bizarre posts will not change the FACT that SUPPLY IS FIXED AND CANNOT INCREASE (unless CCP introduce more moons) ugh, trolled by a hobo. if it's not trolling then you absolutely suck at reading the previous pages. in particular the posts of the person you're quoting.. me. and furthermore, what you're claiming that i claim is beyond explanation. trolling - 0/10 The official goon buzz-kill.
Reprimander The Littlest Hobos Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:08:00 - [86] Originally by: Empyre ugh, trolled by a hobo. if it's not trolling then you absolutely suck at reading the previous pages. in particular the posts of the person you're quoting.. me. and furthermore, what you're claiming that i claim is beyond explanation. trolling - 0/10 Tell you what, lets just wait and see how much the jump freighters will cost, shall we... we'll see who the 'clueless troll' is
Karlemgne Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:13:00 - [87] Originally by: Tarminic I like how you don't have enough belief in your assertion to support it with your main. I'm sympathetic to the OP, but this wins. -Karl
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:25:00 - [88] Originally by: Reprimander Originally by: Empyre ugh, trolled by a hobo. if it's not trolling then you absolutely suck at reading the previous pages. in particular the posts of the person you're quoting.. me. and furthermore, what you're claiming that i claim is beyond explanation. trolling - 0/10 Tell you what, lets just wait and see how much the jump freighters will cost, shall we... we'll see who the 'clueless troll' is why wait? we can tell right here and now. yet another baseless claim you are making for something i never once claimed. i never argued the cost would be high, but that that was expected at first until market prices settled and the supply v demand equation had settled a little on both sides. i know you joined the thread late and all, but you really should read the previous pages before making baseless claims. The official goon buzz-kill.
Karlemgne Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:35:00 - [89] Originally by: Ma'kal Edited by: Ma''kal on 10/12/2007 18:08:58 Originally by: Tarminic Actually, it is entirely relevant that you won't stand behind your post enough to post with your main character. Hiding behind an alt gives you a hell of a lot less credibility. If you can't understand that, then I am very sorry for you. Argumentum ad hominem: This is a special kind of non sequitur in which it is concluded that a person's ideas need not be considered because of some personal characteristic which in fact is irrelevant to the ideas under discussion. Examples: 'Von Daniken's books about ancient astronauts are worthless because he is a convicted forger and embezzler.' 'The contributions of Oscar Wilde to literature cannot be taken seriously. He was, after all, a skeptic, a cynic and a blatant homosexual.' This is correct. However, if people don't post with their mains, it gives the impression that they are hiding something. Plus its just not agreeable. So I stick by the sentiment: Post with your main or STFU
Admiral Nova Strike Team Nova	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:38:00 - [90] Originally by: Empyre this is an absolute lie as i saw two of those found with my own eyes recently. but hey.. i'm done arguing this. if some of you want to believe this is true, go for it. that means a few less people out there trying to mine minerals from moons. You saw 2 of those and you are denying your self 750mil isk / week because ? Excuse me while I don't believe you some more. Quote: so for extra clarification, DON'T BOTHER LOOKING FOR THE BEST MOON MINERALS! THEY ARE ALREADY TAKEN! all of them. no hope. we're all screwed and no one will ever be able to afford jump freighters. my life is over. People know where they are, if YOU don't there's no reason why YOU shouldn't look. Maybe some can be 'emptied'. Quote: But I'm more curious as to what the ratio of 'rare' stuff to 'not so rare' stuff is. I mean, there's a lot more titanium in the universe than promethium. But how much more titanium does an 'average' t2 production consume? I mean, it's not uncommon that the price of trit in a ship outweighs that of the one of the other materials - cheaper, but more of it demanded. http://www.thebabushka.com/eve-online/images/simple-rxns.png < reference If you look at that, the Rarity8 metals, Cobalt/Scandium/Titanium/Tungsten are twice as common as Rarity16 metals Cadmium/Vanadium/Chromium/Platinum but in order to reacht, the simple metals require the rarity 16 metals. So there is clearly an 'excess' of the Rarity8 metals, that are impossible to use. The Rarity16 metals also react with the BOTH the Rarity32 and Rarity64 metals, so they have additional usage which prevents them from being reacted with the Rarity8 metals. Thulium is the cheapest R64 metal, because it only reacts with Neodymium which is another R64 metal but also reacts with Mercury, which is a Rarity32 metal. Basically, moon minerals are not balanced, they're offset on rarity, and then further based on what they react with. That's fine, but you have to deal with there being a single limiting point with some of the rarer materials that are used more commonly. Particularly Promethium/Dysprosium as they react with materials that are far far more common, so the limiting point, for how many T2 ships can be made total, is limited by the number of Promethium and Dysprosium moons. Not very much is used in each ship, but alot of ships are made, and the MAXIMUM supply is fixed, regardless of how many you can find. (Considering I've scanned 2 whole regions and found 0, that you would find TWO 'recently'... well...
Admiral Nova Strike Team Nova	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:39:00 - [91] Oh a good read on moon mining is here: http://www.thebabushka.com/eve-online/
Farham AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:43:00 - [92] Just go with Dreds and T2 cargo expanders. For the same price you can buy one of these jump freighters you can buy 4-5 Dreds and carry basically the same amount and have a really nice second use for them when not hauling freight. Intrepid Crossing Diplomat and All Around Major Idiot
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:44:00 - [93] Originally by: Admiral Nova Originally by: Empyre this is an absolute lie as i saw two of those found with my own eyes recently. but hey.. i'm done arguing this. if some of you want to believe this is true, go for it. that means a few less people out there trying to mine minerals from moons. You saw 2 of those and you are denying your self 750mil isk / week because ? Excuse me while I don't believe you some more. People know where they are, if YOU don't there's no reason why YOU shouldn't look. Maybe some can be 'emptied'. are you effing serious? you're arguing this, a task that i would wager takes a considerable amount of experience playing eve and gaining skills for, and cannot comprehend the possibilities to explain this? do you live in a small secure container in a station in jita or something? i've already stated i have multiple accounts, different characters doing different things. this is not even approaching an idea such as.. i don't know, maybe someone i know claimed them? something i directly claimed once and insinuated the second time. why do i waste my time explaining things to someone who can't even read the thread? aw crap.. missed the sign: 'Don't Feed the Trolls!' The official goon buzz-kill.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:54:00 - [94] Edited by: Sokratesz on 11/12/2007 19:54:32 Originally by: Tarminic I'm merely suggesting that your argument that Jump Freighters will go relatively unused would look stronger if you were willing to support it with your main character, which you aren't. As such, your credibility it lacking. Well, let me say it then..i believe the current production cost of T2 freighters is too high..if you buy a revelation and dedicate it to hauling (meaning light shield tank and all cargomods) you can get 77k m3 space for a fraction of the cost, accompanied by alot more HP and a longer jumprange. If you have the skills for a rorqual its even worse..150k m3 at 1/5th the price. Originally by: ISD Cortes You're at liberty to use the rolling sig you had, as long as there's no chimeras covering the nether regions of voluptuous females.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:13:00 - [95] not many people realize how much money will be made by those who get the first ones? Trashed sig, Shark was here

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