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Torp nerf? I think not...

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osrytnot ghaalrk	Posted - 2007.12.10 17:59:00 - [1] Ok, everyone, let's be honest... The torp nerf that just happened with trinity, is not really a nerf, now is it? It's more like a big boost. CCP, apparently not content with caldari already having the best pve battleship, decides to not only boost its damage output, but through this also make it much more effective in pvp. Disagree? Let me give you an example. Exhibit 1: Raven fitted with 6 Siege Missile Luancher II, 3 Ballistic Control System II's. Exhibit 2: Maelstrom fitted with 8 800mm II, 3 Gyrostabilizers II's So basically fitted for maximum damage (keeping it simple, ofcourse). So we input this into EFT, and get the following dps: Raven: 759 Maelstrom: 666 So basically, a tier 2 battleship outdamages a tier 3 battelship by almost 100 dps. But it doesnt stop there! That dps measurement is at optimal. In other words, a raven will do that damage over its entire range of approximately 30km. The maelstrom only does this at it's optimal of 3km. At optimal + falloff the maelstrom's damage output is halved. So at a range of 23km we have: Raven: 759dps Maelstrom: 333dps So the raven not only outdamages the maelstrom at optimal, but at approx +20km, a raven will do more than 2x the damage! Not exactly balanced i would say... Add to that, the raven will also have 2 extra high slots left, to fit a salvager/tractor, or maybe a nos or something. How can a tier 3 bs be so gimped compared to a tier 2 bs? Seriously this calls for either a minnie boost, or a caldari nerf (however unlikely that will be, ccp loves caldari too much ) Discuss and flame to your heart's content, i've said my piece..
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:03:00 - [2] The megathron also out damages the maelstrom. Clearly the megathron is also overpowered. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
DOARota Gallente Drones Of Annihilation. Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:07:00 - [3] The mega has the same problem. It has to be point blank . At 20 km it halves and dies too.
osrytnot ghaalrk	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:08:00 - [4] Edited by: osrytnot ghaalrk on 10/12/2007 18:09:13 Edited by: osrytnot ghaalrk on 10/12/2007 18:08:42 @james lyrus Nope, because the megathron also has to deal with falloff. In fact even more so, because falloff is shorter. try again :)
Gotk Caldari New Millennium Knights Star Nomads Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:11:00 - [5] the raven will NEED to have a target painter to hit for full damage though
Si Delane Sector 7 Visions of Warfare	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:12:00 - [6] Edited by: Si Delane on 10/12/2007 18:13:15 Posting in EFT warrior thread. It's like a forum warrior but uses somewhat contrived EFT figures to prove results rather than no figures at all. Off the top of my head, can we compare speed, tackle ability and tank of the two ships? There's more to internet spaceships can the volley damage and dps that EFT gives you. Edit: I am aware that this is a stock response to any EFT thread. Also spellings ftw. ------------------------- Actually this IS my main.
Dirtbag Monika	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:16:00 - [7] Tier 3 BS are a different animal. They only have 1 damage bonus where raven has 2. Devs stated that tier 3 weren't supposed to be more powerful but to fill a different role so it's comparing apples and oranges.
Biced	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:20:00 - [8] Torps pawn now Too bad that some people choose to ***** about it.. Back to topic, dont you thing that caldari should have a gank BS that uses missiles? any way they are in line with all the other missiles now imo.. light missiles and rockets. Heavy missiles and HAMs. and now Cruise and Torps. not realy sure what is the role of assault launchers tbh only see it as an anti frig weapon.
Shiken Kan	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:26:00 - [9] you're right that this is a pvp boost for caldari indeed (though it's also a pve nerf ). What you forget about your raw dps numbers is that your target needs to be of the size of a small moon for full damage and if that bs you're shooting uses at least an ab you also loose damage due to the incredible explosion velocity of torps.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:33:00 - [10] Originally by: Si Delane Edited by: Si Delane on 10/12/2007 18:13:15 Posting in EFT warrior thread. It's like a forum warrior but uses somewhat contrived EFT figures to prove results rather than no figures at all. Off the top of my head, can we compare speed, tackle ability and tank of the two ships? There's more to internet spaceships can the volley damage and dps that EFT gives you. Edit: I am aware that this is a stock response to any EFT thread. Also spellings ftw. This ^^^ Originally by: Dirtbag Monika Tier 3 BS are a different animal. They only have 1 damage bonus where raven has 2. Devs stated that tier 3 weren't supposed to be more powerful but to fill a different role so it's comparing apples and oranges. That ^^^ The Tier 3s are really tanking BS, so comparing their DPS with that of a Tier 2 is unhelpful. As for the Raven itself... Yes it has lots of DPS, and can project that DPS well enough in small gangs. However... PG and CPU means that an active tank (and MWD) requires mulptiple fitting mods. Instead, you have to go for a passive-HP tank, which works well enough until you meet an Armageddon and your EM-soft shield melts away. Also, with the RSD nerf, this is now the Raven's only role in pvp - other ships, such as the Mega, are somewhat more flexible. A Raven is a one-trick pony - although it is a nice trick... The ability to select damage type is nice but shouldn't be overstated. In a typical gang fight, you won't really be changing ammo halfway through, so if you fight a mix of armour and shield tankers, you'll have to compromise somewhere along the line. Having said all that, it's certainly more likely to be "overpowered" than "underpowered". We will see.
osrytnot ghaalrk	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:38:00 - [11] Edited by: osrytnot ghaalrk on 10/12/2007 18:42:18 Edited by: osrytnot ghaalrk on 10/12/2007 18:40:09 Originally by: Dirtbag Monika Tier 3 BS are a different animal. They only have 1 damage bonus where raven has 2. Devs stated that tier 3 weren't supposed to be more powerful but to fill a different role so it's comparing apples and oranges. Agreed. But i chose to compare to the maestrom, because with 8 guns fitted, it is the highest damaging minmatar battleship.. ...Or actually not, the typhoon is now with the torp changes. But again, only at autocannon optimal. at 20km+ the 4 guns start to suffer as well, and the dps is quite a bit below the raven's again. Quote: Posting in EFT warrior thread. It's like a forum warrior but uses somewhat contrived EFT figures to prove results rather than no figures at all. Off the top of my head, can we compare speed, tackle ability and tank of the two ships? There's more to internet spaceships can the volley damage and dps that EFT gives you. Edit: I am aware that this is a stock response to any EFT thread. Also spellings ftw. Sure, EFT can't give an exact real world view (eve world view? eve universe view? :P) of the ships. But it does give a good indication. I admit the maelstrom is a tanking beast, but so is a well fitted raven. The tanking advantage of a mael is not in the same league as its dps disadvantage. Speed? Exactly the same between mael and raven. Tackle ability? irrelevant, imho. So yeah, i'm not so naive to think that eft is anything more than a guide. But as a guide, it does its job quite well. Quote: Too bad that some people choose to ***** about it.. Back to topic, dont you thing that caldari should have a gank BS that uses missiles? Sure, but not one that outdamages the other battleships by such a large amount. Dont get me wrong, the intention of this thread is not to say that caldari should be nerfed to oblivion and that all their torps should be replaced with fluffy kittens. I'm just looking for a bit of balance. Which at the moment i cant seem to find..I might just be looking in the wrong places though I guess the main problem is that missiles do the same damage over their entire flight time, while turrets have to deal with falloff. Perhaps there it should be that missiles lose the damage they do as they travel. Kind of like they have a radioactive decay to their payload, and it becomes less and less effective as it goes along. That would bring it in line with the other weapons. Anyways, i digress... I'm off to start training up my missile skills, so that i can atleast be competitive in a typhoon :) edit: omg you people post too fast . I'm gonna get dinner, but some good points were made the last couple of posts. I'm happy to be proved wrong, I mean it definitely goes deeper than just raw dps. So please, show me the forest through the trees :P
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:42:00 - [12] Originally by: osrytnot ghaalrk Edited by: osrytnot ghaalrk on 10/12/2007 18:09:13 Edited by: osrytnot ghaalrk on 10/12/2007 18:08:42 @james lyrus Nope, because the megathron also has to deal with falloff. In fact even more so, because falloff is shorter. try again :) At the optimal of a mega, the maelstrom is still in falloff, and still doing less dps to boot. So it remains a completely flawed comparison, because you're only looking at dps and max range, of short range weapons. On a ship with two weapon bonuses, vs. a ship with a weapon bonus and a tank bonus. shrug. Just give the Raven a bit of time to see how it _actually_ works out in real situations. I think it's powerful, yes, but I think, like most other ships, it has strengths and weaknesses. It's areas of strengths are different from other ships, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's just plain better. For much the same reason as the mega is not 'just plain better' than the maelstrom. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:48:00 - [13] Torps might look good 'on paper' however ... missiles are 'just different' in how they work, and their general usefulness. Where turrets have tracking/optimal/falloff, missiles have flight time, flight velocity, explosion velocity and explosion radius. The explosion radius and velocity on a torpedo is really not all that impressive. They are effective in different situations. A torpedo requires a target painter to be fully effective against a battleship. It requires multiple target painters, and a web or two to be even moderately effective against a smaller target. Oh, and I think you're using an old copy of EFT. Sieges have had a RoF boost since trinity - I can get a siege raven to clear 1000dps now... -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Ellis Psix Solaris Research	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:50:00 - [14] Edited by: Ellis Psix on 10/12/2007 18:52:01 Originally by: osrytnot ghaalrk I guess the main problem is that missiles do the same damage over their entire flight time, while turrets have to deal with falloff. You should consider what happens to missile dps if you go even 1m over maximum range. Also, consider that a Raven is slow. See the drawback to missiles?
Haradgrim Caldari The Wild Bunch INTERDICTION	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:54:00 - [15] The problem with Steak is that it doesn't taste enough like Watermelon. That being said; this is a pointless discussion: 1) You will likely never see a raven fitted for PVP or PVE with 3 x BCU fitted 2) You WILL see a Maelstrom with 3 x Gyro fitted 3) I'd like to know what skill/implant/fitting setup you are gettin 30km range on torps out of..... I will be impressed if you can get it above 25km. 4) What others said about tier 2 vs 3 BS 5) Drone dps? The raven is now a mid-line pvp ship, its more or less useless at range except in limited circumstances and is only useful with appropriate support. The Mega is better and the Maelstrom is more versatile. So PLEASE for the sake of the children, PUT THE TINFOIL DOWN! Your signature exceeds the byte me limit allowed on the forums-Darth Patches Oh Noes!
Danjira Ryuujin Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:55:00 - [16] EFT Wariors, We salute you! Amarr - Annoying the Eve Community since 2005
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:59:00 - [17] Quote: 1) You will likely never see a raven fitted for PVP or PVE with 3 x BCU fitted 3x BCS II is a standard fit, surely?
Kay Rissa Russian Thunder Squad Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:00:00 - [18] please, stop whining about raven. Raven has got 6 med slots, if you fit in there mwd, cap injector, scrambler and some sort of tank, such as XL booster t2 and 2 invul t2, then you need 1 RCU t2 and 1 DREAD GURISTAS cpu to fit that. And with that tank, well it cant realy tank very much. So you need to stick in rigs. So it is not that amazing, because even with this setaup you dont have any pg or cpu left to fit anything decent into other high slots ! Proud member of RTSQ ps: i dont like to kill innocent ppl, so if i killed u, u rnt innocent
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:03:00 - [19] Originally by: Haradgrim T 1) You will likely never see a raven fitted for PVP or PVE with 3 x BCU fitted Mine. Both of them. Quote: 2) You WILL see a Maelstrom with 3 x Gyro fitted Yep. Mine. ;-) Quote: 3) I'd like to know what skill/implant/fitting setup you are gettin 30km range on torps out of..... I will be impressed if you can get it above 25km. Its a Raven.... Quote: 4) What others said about tier 2 vs 3 BS This Quote: 5) Drone dps? Not included, but likely not an issue because you're going to run 5 mediums on both ships. Quote: The raven is now a mid-line pvp ship, its more or less useless at range except in limited circumstances and is only useful with appropriate support. The Mega is better and the Maelstrom is more versatile. Versatility belongs to the Domi - as a Mael pilot, I don't feel that it's particularly 'versatile'. It is good at what it does though. In the end? Boost the Maelstrom (But only because I <3 it). :p -Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Ademaro Imre Caldari Eye of God	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:04:00 - [20] Originally by: osrytnot ghaalrk Ok, everyone, let's be honest... Be honest, have you ever made credible attempts to do level 4 missions within 30km with a Raven, one of the slowest and least agile battleships?
bellass	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:36:00 - [21] Originally by: James Lyrus Torps might look good 'on paper' however ... missiles are 'just different' in how they work, and their general usefulness. Where turrets have tracking/optimal/falloff, missiles have flight time, flight velocity, explosion velocity and explosion radius. The explosion radius and velocity on a torpedo is really not all that impressive. They are effective in different situations. A torpedo requires a target painter to be fully effective against a battleship. It requires multiple target painters, and a web or two to be even moderately effective against a smaller target. Oh, and I think you're using an old copy of EFT. Sieges have had a RoF boost since trinity - I can get a siege raven to clear 1000dps now... out of the many spins that you always see from caldari, we will just look at a few from the above post - a turret also requires a web to track not only smaller target but also the same size target to hit for any dmg and keep the target there. a missile will still hit for some dmg. - the explosion radius of a torp, or any missile matches the same class of vessel it is. a maelstrom has a sig radius of 460, the torp has the explosion radius of 400 ... well inline to hit for full dmg. no calc needed ... full dmg. a target painter is only needed to hit smaller ships such as cruisers. - explosion velocity of a torp is 300km/s, a battleship is only going to do around 180. again, no calc needed ... full dmg. yes, you might find a nanobs (see those a lot don't ya) and go faster. or, with mwd that would last maybe 30 seconds... and if it is a turret ship, have a difficult time hitting the missle ship unless flying straight towards or away.
bellass	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:39:00 - [22] Originally by: Ademaro Imre Originally by: osrytnot ghaalrk Ok, everyone, let's be honest... Be honest, have you ever made credible attempts to do level 4 missions within 30km with a Raven, one of the slowest and least agile battleships? let's see, i thought there was a long range missile called the cruise
Ademaro Imre Caldari Eye of God	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:39:00 - [23] Originally by: bellass - the explosion radius of a torp, or any missile matches the same class of vessel it is. a maelstrom has a sig radius of 460, the torp has the explosion radius of 400 ... well inline to hit for full dmg. no calc needed ... full dmg. a target painter is only needed to hit smaller ships such as cruisers. - explosion velocity of a torp is 300km/s, a battleship is only going to do around 180. again, no calc needed ... full dmg. Torps have a 450 explosion radius and 250 explosion velocity.
Ademaro Imre Caldari Eye of God	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:41:00 - [24] Originally by: bellass Originally by: Ademaro Imre Originally by: osrytnot ghaalrk Ok, everyone, let's be honest... Be honest, have you ever made credible attempts to do level 4 missions within 30km with a Raven, one of the slowest and least agile battleships? let's see, i thought there was a long range missile called the cruise exactly.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:42:00 - [25] Originally by: Ademaro Imre Originally by: osrytnot ghaalrk Ok, everyone, let's be honest... Be honest, have you ever made credible attempts to do level 4 missions within 30km with a Raven, one of the slowest and least agile battleships? The Raven is very agile after the Tirinity patch. -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
bellass	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:43:00 - [26] Originally by: Ellis Psix Edited by: Ellis Psix on 10/12/2007 18:52:01 Originally by: osrytnot ghaalrk I guess the main problem is that missiles do the same damage over their entire flight time, while turrets have to deal with falloff. You should consider what happens to missile dps if you go even 1m over maximum range. Also, consider that a Raven is slow. See the drawback to missiles? - at that range, ac would have long been diminishing towards 0 - maelstrom and raven have the same velocity and inertial
The RepoMan Caldari Red Horizon Inc Red Horizon	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:45:00 - [27] In caps, because I think that's the only language people here understand: THE TIERS ARE AN ARBITRARY LABEL YOU DUMB**S, A HIGHER TIER JUST MEANS THE SHIP IS NEXT IN THE LIST NOT THAT IT IS INHERENTLY BETTER OR TO BE OF COMPARATIVE QUALITY TO SHIPS OF THE SAME TIER. ***** DEAL WITH IT. Fly safe! - Repo
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:52:00 - [28] I'm not complaining at all, but your forgetting to factor in the need for a target painter, no instant damage, and the difficulty to hit anything that flies remotely fast with 1500m/s speed torps. Also fitting requirements make it difficult to fit speed mods to the Raven and it is still one of the slower BSs. I love the new change, but there are still massive downsides to using a Raven in PVP. Also I have BS V Torps V and support skills to 3 or 4. I get 17-20km with my torps currently, not 30km. Whether or not the torp changes make the Raven "overpowered" still remains to be seen I think. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:55:00 - [29] Originally by: Gorefacer I'm not complaining at all, but your forgetting to factor in the need for a target painter, no instant damage, and the difficulty to hit anything that flies remotely fast with 1500m/s speed torps. Also fitting requirements make it difficult to fit speed mods to the Raven and it is still one of the slower BSs. I love the new change, but there are still massive downsides to using a Raven in PVP. Also I have BS V Torps V and support skills to 3 or 4. I get 17-20km with my torps currently, not 30km. Whether or not the torp changes make the Raven "overpowered" still remains to be seen I think. Your support skills are at 3 and 4... might explain something? Those are 10% bonuses there. -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Shiken Kan	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:58:00 - [30] Originally by: bellass - explosion velocity of a torp is 300km/s, a battleship is only going to do around 180. again, no calc needed ... full dmg. yes, you might find a nanobs (see those a lot don't ya) and go faster. or, with mwd that would last maybe 30 seconds... and if it is a turret ship, have a difficult time hitting the missle ship unless flying straight towards or away. Gratz that's exactly how you fight missile ships, keep speed up but low transversal then the raven will deal around 0 damage until you're in range for your blaster or you'll be able to hit it from that range with rails if you prefer. It's not like torps have the old 100km+ range you know so half a minute of mwding should be enough. Also an ab will be enough to lower torp damage quite coniderably.

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