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osrytnot ghaalrk	Posted - 2007.12.10 17:59:00 - [1] Ok, everyone, let's be honest... The torp nerf that just happened with trinity, is not really a nerf, now is it? It's more like a big boost. CCP, apparently not content with caldari already having the best pve battleship, decides to not only boost its damage output, but through this also make it much more effective in pvp. Disagree? Let me give you an example. Exhibit 1: Raven fitted with 6 Siege Missile Luancher II, 3 Ballistic Control System II's. Exhibit 2: Maelstrom fitted with 8 800mm II, 3 Gyrostabilizers II's So basically fitted for maximum damage (keeping it simple, ofcourse). So we input this into EFT, and get the following dps: Raven: 759 Maelstrom: 666 So basically, a tier 2 battleship outdamages a tier 3 battelship by almost 100 dps. But it doesnt stop there! That dps measurement is at optimal. In other words, a raven will do that damage over its entire range of approximately 30km. The maelstrom only does this at it's optimal of 3km. At optimal + falloff the maelstrom's damage output is halved. So at a range of 23km we have: Raven: 759dps Maelstrom: 333dps So the raven not only outdamages the maelstrom at optimal, but at approx +20km, a raven will do more than 2x the damage! Not exactly balanced i would say... Add to that, the raven will also have 2 extra high slots left, to fit a salvager/tractor, or maybe a nos or something. How can a tier 3 bs be so gimped compared to a tier 2 bs? Seriously this calls for either a minnie boost, or a caldari nerf (however unlikely that will be, ccp loves caldari too much ) Discuss and flame to your heart's content, i've said my piece..
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:03:00 - [2] The megathron also out damages the maelstrom. Clearly the megathron is also overpowered. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
DOARota Gallente Drones Of Annihilation. Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:07:00 - [3] The mega has the same problem. It has to be point blank . At 20 km it halves and dies too.
osrytnot ghaalrk	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:08:00 - [4] Edited by: osrytnot ghaalrk on 10/12/2007 18:09:13 Edited by: osrytnot ghaalrk on 10/12/2007 18:08:42 @james lyrus Nope, because the megathron also has to deal with falloff. In fact even more so, because falloff is shorter. try again :)
Gotk Caldari New Millennium Knights Star Nomads Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:11:00 - [5] the raven will NEED to have a target painter to hit for full damage though
Si Delane Sector 7 Visions of Warfare	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:12:00 - [6] Edited by: Si Delane on 10/12/2007 18:13:15 Posting in EFT warrior thread. It's like a forum warrior but uses somewhat contrived EFT figures to prove results rather than no figures at all. Off the top of my head, can we compare speed, tackle ability and tank of the two ships? There's more to internet spaceships can the volley damage and dps that EFT gives you. Edit: I am aware that this is a stock response to any EFT thread. Also spellings ftw. ------------------------- Actually this IS my main.
Dirtbag Monika	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:16:00 - [7] Tier 3 BS are a different animal. They only have 1 damage bonus where raven has 2. Devs stated that tier 3 weren't supposed to be more powerful but to fill a different role so it's comparing apples and oranges.
Biced	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:20:00 - [8] Torps pawn now Too bad that some people choose to ***** about it.. Back to topic, dont you thing that caldari should have a gank BS that uses missiles? any way they are in line with all the other missiles now imo.. light missiles and rockets. Heavy missiles and HAMs. and now Cruise and Torps. not realy sure what is the role of assault launchers tbh only see it as an anti frig weapon.
Shiken Kan	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:26:00 - [9] you're right that this is a pvp boost for caldari indeed (though it's also a pve nerf ). What you forget about your raw dps numbers is that your target needs to be of the size of a small moon for full damage and if that bs you're shooting uses at least an ab you also loose damage due to the incredible explosion velocity of torps.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:33:00 - [10] Originally by: Si Delane Edited by: Si Delane on 10/12/2007 18:13:15 Posting in EFT warrior thread. It's like a forum warrior but uses somewhat contrived EFT figures to prove results rather than no figures at all. Off the top of my head, can we compare speed, tackle ability and tank of the two ships? There's more to internet spaceships can the volley damage and dps that EFT gives you. Edit: I am aware that this is a stock response to any EFT thread. Also spellings ftw. This ^^^ Originally by: Dirtbag Monika Tier 3 BS are a different animal. They only have 1 damage bonus where raven has 2. Devs stated that tier 3 weren't supposed to be more powerful but to fill a different role so it's comparing apples and oranges. That ^^^ The Tier 3s are really tanking BS, so comparing their DPS with that of a Tier 2 is unhelpful. As for the Raven itself... Yes it has lots of DPS, and can project that DPS well enough in small gangs. However... PG and CPU means that an active tank (and MWD) requires mulptiple fitting mods. Instead, you have to go for a passive-HP tank, which works well enough until you meet an Armageddon and your EM-soft shield melts away. Also, with the RSD nerf, this is now the Raven's only role in pvp - other ships, such as the Mega, are somewhat more flexible. A Raven is a one-trick pony - although it is a nice trick... The ability to select damage type is nice but shouldn't be overstated. In a typical gang fight, you won't really be changing ammo halfway through, so if you fight a mix of armour and shield tankers, you'll have to compromise somewhere along the line. Having said all that, it's certainly more likely to be "overpowered" than "underpowered". We will see.
osrytnot ghaalrk	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:38:00 - [11] Edited by: osrytnot ghaalrk on 10/12/2007 18:42:18 Edited by: osrytnot ghaalrk on 10/12/2007 18:40:09 Originally by: Dirtbag Monika Tier 3 BS are a different animal. They only have 1 damage bonus where raven has 2. Devs stated that tier 3 weren't supposed to be more powerful but to fill a different role so it's comparing apples and oranges. Agreed. But i chose to compare to the maestrom, because with 8 guns fitted, it is the highest damaging minmatar battleship.. ...Or actually not, the typhoon is now with the torp changes. But again, only at autocannon optimal. at 20km+ the 4 guns start to suffer as well, and the dps is quite a bit below the raven's again. Quote: Posting in EFT warrior thread. It's like a forum warrior but uses somewhat contrived EFT figures to prove results rather than no figures at all. Off the top of my head, can we compare speed, tackle ability and tank of the two ships? There's more to internet spaceships can the volley damage and dps that EFT gives you. Edit: I am aware that this is a stock response to any EFT thread. Also spellings ftw. Sure, EFT can't give an exact real world view (eve world view? eve universe view? :P) of the ships. But it does give a good indication. I admit the maelstrom is a tanking beast, but so is a well fitted raven. The tanking advantage of a mael is not in the same league as its dps disadvantage. Speed? Exactly the same between mael and raven. Tackle ability? irrelevant, imho. So yeah, i'm not so naive to think that eft is anything more than a guide. But as a guide, it does its job quite well. Quote: Too bad that some people choose to ***** about it.. Back to topic, dont you thing that caldari should have a gank BS that uses missiles? Sure, but not one that outdamages the other battleships by such a large amount. Dont get me wrong, the intention of this thread is not to say that caldari should be nerfed to oblivion and that all their torps should be replaced with fluffy kittens. I'm just looking for a bit of balance. Which at the moment i cant seem to find..I might just be looking in the wrong places though I guess the main problem is that missiles do the same damage over their entire flight time, while turrets have to deal with falloff. Perhaps there it should be that missiles lose the damage they do as they travel. Kind of like they have a radioactive decay to their payload, and it becomes less and less effective as it goes along. That would bring it in line with the other weapons. Anyways, i digress... I'm off to start training up my missile skills, so that i can atleast be competitive in a typhoon :) edit: omg you people post too fast . I'm gonna get dinner, but some good points were made the last couple of posts. I'm happy to be proved wrong, I mean it definitely goes deeper than just raw dps. So please, show me the forest through the trees :P
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:42:00 - [12] Originally by: osrytnot ghaalrk Edited by: osrytnot ghaalrk on 10/12/2007 18:09:13 Edited by: osrytnot ghaalrk on 10/12/2007 18:08:42 @james lyrus Nope, because the megathron also has to deal with falloff. In fact even more so, because falloff is shorter. try again :) At the optimal of a mega, the maelstrom is still in falloff, and still doing less dps to boot. So it remains a completely flawed comparison, because you're only looking at dps and max range, of short range weapons. On a ship with two weapon bonuses, vs. a ship with a weapon bonus and a tank bonus. shrug. Just give the Raven a bit of time to see how it _actually_ works out in real situations. I think it's powerful, yes, but I think, like most other ships, it has strengths and weaknesses. It's areas of strengths are different from other ships, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's just plain better. For much the same reason as the mega is not 'just plain better' than the maelstrom. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:48:00 - [13] Torps might look good 'on paper' however ... missiles are 'just different' in how they work, and their general usefulness. Where turrets have tracking/optimal/falloff, missiles have flight time, flight velocity, explosion velocity and explosion radius. The explosion radius and velocity on a torpedo is really not all that impressive. They are effective in different situations. A torpedo requires a target painter to be fully effective against a battleship. It requires multiple target painters, and a web or two to be even moderately effective against a smaller target. Oh, and I think you're using an old copy of EFT. Sieges have had a RoF boost since trinity - I can get a siege raven to clear 1000dps now... -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Ellis Psix Solaris Research	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:50:00 - [14] Edited by: Ellis Psix on 10/12/2007 18:52:01 Originally by: osrytnot ghaalrk I guess the main problem is that missiles do the same damage over their entire flight time, while turrets have to deal with falloff. You should consider what happens to missile dps if you go even 1m over maximum range. Also, consider that a Raven is slow. See the drawback to missiles?
Haradgrim Caldari The Wild Bunch INTERDICTION	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:54:00 - [15] The problem with Steak is that it doesn't taste enough like Watermelon. That being said; this is a pointless discussion: 1) You will likely never see a raven fitted for PVP or PVE with 3 x BCU fitted 2) You WILL see a Maelstrom with 3 x Gyro fitted 3) I'd like to know what skill/implant/fitting setup you are gettin 30km range on torps out of..... I will be impressed if you can get it above 25km. 4) What others said about tier 2 vs 3 BS 5) Drone dps? The raven is now a mid-line pvp ship, its more or less useless at range except in limited circumstances and is only useful with appropriate support. The Mega is better and the Maelstrom is more versatile. So PLEASE for the sake of the children, PUT THE TINFOIL DOWN! Your signature exceeds the byte me limit allowed on the forums-Darth Patches Oh Noes!
Danjira Ryuujin Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:55:00 - [16] EFT Wariors, We salute you! Amarr - Annoying the Eve Community since 2005
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:59:00 - [17] Quote: 1) You will likely never see a raven fitted for PVP or PVE with 3 x BCU fitted 3x BCS II is a standard fit, surely?
Kay Rissa Russian Thunder Squad Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:00:00 - [18] please, stop whining about raven. Raven has got 6 med slots, if you fit in there mwd, cap injector, scrambler and some sort of tank, such as XL booster t2 and 2 invul t2, then you need 1 RCU t2 and 1 DREAD GURISTAS cpu to fit that. And with that tank, well it cant realy tank very much. So you need to stick in rigs. So it is not that amazing, because even with this setaup you dont have any pg or cpu left to fit anything decent into other high slots ! Proud member of RTSQ ps: i dont like to kill innocent ppl, so if i killed u, u rnt innocent
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:03:00 - [19] Originally by: Haradgrim T 1) You will likely never see a raven fitted for PVP or PVE with 3 x BCU fitted Mine. Both of them. Quote: 2) You WILL see a Maelstrom with 3 x Gyro fitted Yep. Mine. ;-) Quote: 3) I'd like to know what skill/implant/fitting setup you are gettin 30km range on torps out of..... I will be impressed if you can get it above 25km. Its a Raven.... Quote: 4) What others said about tier 2 vs 3 BS This Quote: 5) Drone dps? Not included, but likely not an issue because you're going to run 5 mediums on both ships. Quote: The raven is now a mid-line pvp ship, its more or less useless at range except in limited circumstances and is only useful with appropriate support. The Mega is better and the Maelstrom is more versatile. Versatility belongs to the Domi - as a Mael pilot, I don't feel that it's particularly 'versatile'. It is good at what it does though. In the end? Boost the Maelstrom (But only because I <3 it). :p -Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Ademaro Imre Caldari Eye of God	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:04:00 - [20] Originally by: osrytnot ghaalrk Ok, everyone, let's be honest... Be honest, have you ever made credible attempts to do level 4 missions within 30km with a Raven, one of the slowest and least agile battleships?
bellass	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:36:00 - [21] Originally by: James Lyrus Torps might look good 'on paper' however ... missiles are 'just different' in how they work, and their general usefulness. Where turrets have tracking/optimal/falloff, missiles have flight time, flight velocity, explosion velocity and explosion radius. The explosion radius and velocity on a torpedo is really not all that impressive. They are effective in different situations. A torpedo requires a target painter to be fully effective against a battleship. It requires multiple target painters, and a web or two to be even moderately effective against a smaller target. Oh, and I think you're using an old copy of EFT. Sieges have had a RoF boost since trinity - I can get a siege raven to clear 1000dps now... out of the many spins that you always see from caldari, we will just look at a few from the above post - a turret also requires a web to track not only smaller target but also the same size target to hit for any dmg and keep the target there. a missile will still hit for some dmg. - the explosion radius of a torp, or any missile matches the same class of vessel it is. a maelstrom has a sig radius of 460, the torp has the explosion radius of 400 ... well inline to hit for full dmg. no calc needed ... full dmg. a target painter is only needed to hit smaller ships such as cruisers. - explosion velocity of a torp is 300km/s, a battleship is only going to do around 180. again, no calc needed ... full dmg. yes, you might find a nanobs (see those a lot don't ya) and go faster. or, with mwd that would last maybe 30 seconds... and if it is a turret ship, have a difficult time hitting the missle ship unless flying straight towards or away.
bellass	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:39:00 - [22] Originally by: Ademaro Imre Originally by: osrytnot ghaalrk Ok, everyone, let's be honest... Be honest, have you ever made credible attempts to do level 4 missions within 30km with a Raven, one of the slowest and least agile battleships? let's see, i thought there was a long range missile called the cruise
Ademaro Imre Caldari Eye of God	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:39:00 - [23] Originally by: bellass - the explosion radius of a torp, or any missile matches the same class of vessel it is. a maelstrom has a sig radius of 460, the torp has the explosion radius of 400 ... well inline to hit for full dmg. no calc needed ... full dmg. a target painter is only needed to hit smaller ships such as cruisers. - explosion velocity of a torp is 300km/s, a battleship is only going to do around 180. again, no calc needed ... full dmg. Torps have a 450 explosion radius and 250 explosion velocity.
Ademaro Imre Caldari Eye of God	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:41:00 - [24] Originally by: bellass Originally by: Ademaro Imre Originally by: osrytnot ghaalrk Ok, everyone, let's be honest... Be honest, have you ever made credible attempts to do level 4 missions within 30km with a Raven, one of the slowest and least agile battleships? let's see, i thought there was a long range missile called the cruise exactly.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:42:00 - [25] Originally by: Ademaro Imre Originally by: osrytnot ghaalrk Ok, everyone, let's be honest... Be honest, have you ever made credible attempts to do level 4 missions within 30km with a Raven, one of the slowest and least agile battleships? The Raven is very agile after the Tirinity patch. -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
bellass	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:43:00 - [26] Originally by: Ellis Psix Edited by: Ellis Psix on 10/12/2007 18:52:01 Originally by: osrytnot ghaalrk I guess the main problem is that missiles do the same damage over their entire flight time, while turrets have to deal with falloff. You should consider what happens to missile dps if you go even 1m over maximum range. Also, consider that a Raven is slow. See the drawback to missiles? - at that range, ac would have long been diminishing towards 0 - maelstrom and raven have the same velocity and inertial
The RepoMan Caldari Red Horizon Inc Red Horizon	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:45:00 - [27] In caps, because I think that's the only language people here understand: THE TIERS ARE AN ARBITRARY LABEL YOU DUMB**S, A HIGHER TIER JUST MEANS THE SHIP IS NEXT IN THE LIST NOT THAT IT IS INHERENTLY BETTER OR TO BE OF COMPARATIVE QUALITY TO SHIPS OF THE SAME TIER. ***** DEAL WITH IT. Fly safe! - Repo
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:52:00 - [28] I'm not complaining at all, but your forgetting to factor in the need for a target painter, no instant damage, and the difficulty to hit anything that flies remotely fast with 1500m/s speed torps. Also fitting requirements make it difficult to fit speed mods to the Raven and it is still one of the slower BSs. I love the new change, but there are still massive downsides to using a Raven in PVP. Also I have BS V Torps V and support skills to 3 or 4. I get 17-20km with my torps currently, not 30km. Whether or not the torp changes make the Raven "overpowered" still remains to be seen I think. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:55:00 - [29] Originally by: Gorefacer I'm not complaining at all, but your forgetting to factor in the need for a target painter, no instant damage, and the difficulty to hit anything that flies remotely fast with 1500m/s speed torps. Also fitting requirements make it difficult to fit speed mods to the Raven and it is still one of the slower BSs. I love the new change, but there are still massive downsides to using a Raven in PVP. Also I have BS V Torps V and support skills to 3 or 4. I get 17-20km with my torps currently, not 30km. Whether or not the torp changes make the Raven "overpowered" still remains to be seen I think. Your support skills are at 3 and 4... might explain something? Those are 10% bonuses there. -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Shiken Kan	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:58:00 - [30] Originally by: bellass - explosion velocity of a torp is 300km/s, a battleship is only going to do around 180. again, no calc needed ... full dmg. yes, you might find a nanobs (see those a lot don't ya) and go faster. or, with mwd that would last maybe 30 seconds... and if it is a turret ship, have a difficult time hitting the missle ship unless flying straight towards or away. Gratz that's exactly how you fight missile ships, keep speed up but low transversal then the raven will deal around 0 damage until you're in range for your blaster or you'll be able to hit it from that range with rails if you prefer. It's not like torps have the old 100km+ range you know so half a minute of mwding should be enough. Also an ab will be enough to lower torp damage quite coniderably.
Haradgrim Caldari The Wild Bunch INTERDICTION	Posted - 2007.12.10 20:26:00 - [31] I was always of the impression that a 3rd BCU on a raven isn't worth it, the damage increase is minor and a PDU in that 3rd slot helps with fitting and tank..... I guess I stand corrected... Your signature exceeds the byte me limit allowed on the forums-Darth Patches Oh Noes!
Ulstan	Posted - 2007.12.10 20:30:00 - [32] Quote: So basically, a tier 2 battleship outdamages a tier 3 battelship by almost 100 dps Haven't you learned yet that the 'tier' concept is more or less irrelevent? Especially where battleships are concerned, as the t3 are fairly specialized.
Jantix	Posted - 2007.12.10 21:13:00 - [33] Edited by: Jantix on 10/12/2007 21:14:43 Load up your "All skills lvl 5" char in EFT and fit this on your raven. If it fits you may have a valid point. 6x Seige II Quad Lif MWD XL Booster II EM Hardener II Invul II Target Painter II (Necessary for full damage) Heavy Cap Booster II 3x BCU Damage Control II Inertia Stab II 2x Flight time or speed rigs 1x Thermal hardener rig Dosen't even come close to fitting and thats with 2 empty highs. The mael on the other hand fits all that just fine, subbing falloff rigs for missle speed, gyro's for BCU and a webber instead of target painter. You could of course take off the dmg control, inertia stab, the therm resist rig and one missile speed rig. And instead put on 2 TII CPU upgrades and 2 powergrid rigs. Then you can even fit 2 med nos! But then your raven only tanks 332 compared to the mael's 559 :(. Isn't EFT fun!
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.12.10 21:20:00 - [34] Let me repeat something most gun users said pre-buff: "They are different weapon systems and can not be compared." This isn't some linear game where the closer you are the more damage you get to do. We have flight time, explosion radius/velocity (Which means we almost never hit for full damage, whereas guns hit anything for full). I could go on and on, but this is a non issue.
Alowishus Shadow Company FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.12.10 21:26:00 - [35] Originally by: osrytnot ghaalrk Ok, everyone, let's be honest... The torp nerf that just happened with trinity, is not really a nerf, now is it? This is where your post should have ended. No, it was not a nerf, never intended to be. It was a change to bring Torps inline with their Cruiser and Frig sized counterparts (Rockets and Heavy Assault Missiles). This was explained MANY times. The most hilarious part of this is that your "revelation" coincides with the release of EFT 2.4. Damn EFT warriors. If you'd bother to read the forums, hit the test server or do anything usefull with yourself, you'd know about the Torp changes and why they occured before the EFT update.
Dexton Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.10 21:41:00 - [36] Also if u take a megathron and put neutrons on it and 4 magstabz and pimp it to hell you can do 1400 in eft. But this is not a eft forum, if you find something to be overpowered in your eft go to the eft forums and whine how overpowered ships look in eft. Yes torp launchers got 25% less rof but torps got 30% increase in explosion radius. This means that in your eft chase the raven would be doing 671 after explosion radius. But then again mwd, skills, rigs, modules, luck, speed, direction, distance, agility, player experiense all effect the dps and none of this eft takes into account wich means its numbers don't say nothing about if a ship is overpowered or not. Bring facts from eve or stfu
Jovienus	Posted - 2007.12.10 21:52:00 - [37] Edited by: Jovienus on 10/12/2007 21:55:02 NOTE Didn't read or know about CCP bring torps inline with similar missiles. But still its a kick to the balls for all raven pilots. Originally by: osrytnot ghaalrk Ok, everyone, let's be honest... The torp nerf that just happened with trinity, is not really a nerf, now is it? It's more like a big boost. CCP, apparently not content with caldari already having the best pve battleship, decides to not only boost its damage output, but through this also make it much more effective in pvp. Discuss and flame to your heart's content, i've said my piece.. Easy to say that when you don't have a clue what you're talking about! Fitting 6 t2 torp launchers not only eat a MASSIVE amount of PG and CPU but also ensures you have a MASSIVE cap reduction too. This all combined means that the chances of actually fitting anything of a tank on a t2 torp raven without loads of lvl 5 skills in all your reducing PG and CPU skills is nil. This decrease by CCP is possibly the last in a long line of straws for me. I have spent a lot of time... like a year on/off now training up my raven skills and all associated to get what I felt was a great ship which still suffered from poor tanking and cap problems only to literaturely be slapped in the face by a WHOOPING 2/3 reduction in range on my torps. WTF! I remember 2 years back Ravens being able to t2 torp from over 120KMs away. That was until someone ***ed and it was nerfed. But jesus christ! Nerfing them to 19KMs! I mean COME ON! Who the hell are you kidding how can this in any way or form by classed as a balance? Everyone knows the Raven is king of the PvE but is only reasonable good at PvP, the idea that CCP as now decided to knee cap it is just plain insanity. Ravens aren't PvP ship, not anymore, they haven't been for over a year and a year, that crown belongs to the Minmatar BSs by far. What the Raven had settled into was the role of general all purpose mission running ship. And to be totally honest it was that role that it truly shined. But it only did so because of 2 simply facts A. it had access to multispectral heavy duty weapons that were great for BS killing and B. it can mount a reasonible shield tank. But .... and this is the but here, the reason it was so successful was not from the damage it dealt but from the fact it can stay a way from the main bulk of the enemy and smack them with torpedoes. This was essential for the raven since its tanking capability wasn't anywhere near as effective as the gallente/minmatar or heaven forbid the amarr. But now because of the reduction in range of the torpedoes, the poor raven now has to fly deep into enemy formations to deploy its main effective weapon. Problem is that against frigates, cruisers, battlecruisers and other battleships I don't see the ravens shield tank lasting long. I can personally account for numerous instances where my ravens lack of tanking resulted in serious problems. One of which costing me a navy issue raven WHICH I might add would happen again repeatedly under the new torpedoes nerf. I was ranged and scambled by 20+ frigates and then clipped to death. Having a range of only 19kms would means that raven pilots would have to aggro entire fleets of ships at silly ranges in order to actually be able to score a direct hit. This is simply suicidal, ravens aren't designed to take a pounding and switching to cruises when reduce the ravens DPS by 1/3 to a 1/2 depending on skills. This again isn't acceptable. Has far has I or any other raven pilot would be concerned the range we had was ok about right. A decrease of perhaps 10km or 15kms would of been workable but 2/3 of the total range are you mad!? And don't even get me started on how ing stupid that statement was about how this was a pvp boost! thats was just crap! How does this sound. Get a geddon, set to 25km, scramble, nos and kill! Oh look the raven can't do **! Right thats a wonderful boost that is!
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.10 21:53:00 - [38] Edited by: Gamesguy on 10/12/2007 21:53:42 Thats a ****** comparison. The raven is like a blaster mega, all the people fitting shield boosters are idiots, you fit an extender/invul tank, not an active tank. The maelstrom is like a hyperion, it has a rep bonus so naturally it does better using an active tank. Quote:** Easy to say that when you don't have a clue what you're talking about! Fitting 6 t2 torp launchers not only eat a MASSIVE amount of PG and CPU but also ensures you have a MASSIVE cap reduction too. This all combined means that the chances of actually fitting anything of a tank on a t2 torp raven without loads of lvl 5 skills in all your reducing PG and CPU skills is nil. Fitting a pvp raven like you're fitting for a mission or npcing=fail.
AnKahn Caldari Repo Industries	Posted - 2007.12.10 21:54:00 - [39] Caldari ships are support ships. Very effective when flying in a nice mixed gang with juicier targets around you (read tech II ships). If you get primaried alot, you're doing it wrong. This Torp change should make pilots of all races happy because now your Caldari gang mates can help you more. If you come on these forums and say you were owned 1v1 by a Caldari pilot we will laugh at you. However, if you do get owned it was the pilot not the ship that did so. Noone can say there are overpowered PvP Caldari ships, right? OK, the Drake's hard to kill, get over it.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.10 21:56:00 - [40] Quote: And don't even get me started on how **ing stupid that statement was about how this was a pvp boost! thats was just crap! How does this sound. Get a geddon, set to 25km, scramble, nos and kill! Oh look the raven can't do **! Javs, passive tank and MWD disagree. And even if they don't, that's a fantasy 1v1 which is interesting for balance purposes, but not likely to actually happen.
ArmyOfMe Exotic Dancers Club Nocturnal Legion	Posted - 2007.12.10 22:00:00 - [41] Poking in to say hi in a noob alt thread
Antic Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.10 22:30:00 - [42] Originally by: osrytnot ghaalrk ...So basically, a tier 2 battleship outdamages a tier 3 battelship by almost 100 dps. ... ...How can a tier 3 bs be so gimped compared to a tier 2 bs? Seriously this calls for either a minnie boost, or a caldari nerf (however unlikely that will be, ccp loves caldari too much ) Discuss and flame to your heart's content, i've said my piece.. Oh so a Tier 2 outdamages a Tier 3 battleship? If we are to over simplify it this much then lets compare tier 3 rokh for damage against maelstrom. OMG nerf maelstrom! Or Mega against rokh for damage? OMG NERF MEGA! "oh but rokh isnt meant to do damage!" or "its a different kind of ship so its not thesame!" or whatever is what you will say but thats just the point your entire argument falls on. The tier 3s are all different. None of them are ment to wtfpwn compared to something else but instead to add something different to the lineup. Wich means they are all useful in their own right.
Igetshotalot THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.10 22:52:00 - [43] Originally by: Gamesguy Edited by: Gamesguy on 10/12/2007 21:53:42 Thats a ******** comparison. The raven is like a blaster mega, all the people fitting shield boosters are idiots, you fit an extender/invul tank, not an active tank. this
bellass	Posted - 2007.12.10 23:08:00 - [44] missiles ... no matter what ship compared to, or what obscure scenario you come up with, missile will always out damage turrets. caldari will always come back with bs statements like, ' oh the pain, you just don't realize!!!!!! ' and, ' oh, i can't take out an inty with my torps but turrets with their alpha ...!!! ' or some such bull****. they are so used to their missions and being able to take out all npc that when the same doesn't happen in pvp they whine without even realizing how on easy mode they have it. tux favored caldari and gave them all the benefit and still they whine and came to believe their own propaganda that missles suck in pvp. there is only one situation that they really do suck and that is in sniper fleet with the missile travel time. but you still find many ravens in fleets cause those missile boats are great dps on a pos take down. i really hope that this is the last buff to caldari and they finally get off their but and actually try at pvp. otherwise they will grow so far past their current dominance that not a word other than caldari will be heard on the forums.
Gin Moon	Posted - 2007.12.10 23:15:00 - [45] There is a LOT of fail in this thread. First, EFT Ninja's, as I like to call them... GTFO EFT and PLAY the game... you'll soon realize that EFT lies out it's ass to you. EFT is good to see what will fit on your ship, not what kind of damage your ship can do. Second, back towards the beginning... wtf 3km optimal with a Minmatar BS? I call bull on that... my MEDIUM AC's have an optimal at close to 5km. But then again, I only use short range ammo with those guns. You can get your optimal well past 15km if your skills are worth anything. That plus falloff means you are still doing a LOT of damage against other BS's at 20km. If you are fighting a Raven and they are pushing the 20km mark... simple to run away if you need to. Also the Raven tank isn't that great for PvP. Third, on my Raven pilot, with all missile support and BS skills to 4, I get just barely under 25km max range with torps. So if something is flying away from me at about the same speed I am flying towards them, I can't hit them at 20km. There's a HUGE tip right there for you. 30km is either with max skills and/or implants for range, or rigs. OMG a salvager and a tractor in pvp! run! overpowered wtf! shut up. Even with T1 named launchers you'll be hard put to fit a nos or two in your remaining highs. Seriously, your EFT numbers applied to in game situations don't work. In theory my Cane set up should perma tank sentry guns as long as I have enough cap booster 800's... in practice, with nothing else shooting at me, does it work? Nope. In theory, I can make a Rupture do 350 dps, but does that play out in practice? Nope. Is there a way for mods to have an instant blocking of EFT based threads here? Also, you don't need a TP to get full torp damage on another BS. A third BCS II does help your damage output enough to outweigh the need of a third PDS II. If you need a third PDS II to fit everything, your support skills suck and you need to work on them a bit. 30km in a torp raven isn't really a realistic figure. 20k, pretty easy. 25k, getting kind of hard. 30k? sure on the test server with a full set of implants and rigs you can top 30k. Who is going to spend that much on a pvp ship? Buffer tank wins, because you'll be out of cap unless you rig yourself to the max quicker than you can say "crap i'm in a pod" Even if you can out dps another battleship, can you beat it's tank? A rokh has a tougher tank than a Raven, and so does a Maelstrom by FAR. Yes the Raven's agility got buffed up a little bit, but it still has a higher mass than most other BS's and so, can not go as fast. The agility change put it in line with other ships as far as alignment time, and that's pretty much it. Agility does not make you go faster, agility helps you turn better, that is all. Also, along the lines of EFT magic, wtf kind of ammo were you fitting in that Maelstrom? Use faction ammo, or at least the high damage T1 ammo. And lastly, stfu and get off your alt. You SHOULD be afraid of me, because I actually know how to play EVE better than I can play EFT.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.10 23:49:00 - [46] Edited by: Gamesguy on 10/12/2007 23:49:20 If you're gonna insult people Gin Moon and brag about how uber you are, post with your main. Right now all I see is a coward hiding behind an alt. 15km optimal with ACs? Maybe if you use barrage, but that would lower your dps by 25% or so instantly, the raven vastly outdamages the maelstrom and the tempest at 20km. Raven can fit just as good a buffer tank as most other BS, so its tank is not "weak". Not to mention its not slow either once you start fitting trimarks and plates on the other BS, its actually faster.
bellass	Posted - 2007.12.10 23:49:00 - [47] Originally by: Gin Moon stuff says a 2 month noob or alt
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.10 23:58:00 - [48] O god not again a Torp Raven vs Mega Thread. Torp Raven + Painter vs BS = you win. Torp Raven + Painter vs HAC = you get pawnt. Mega vs everything depends on your wallet and your Skills but a good chance you pawn them. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Jovienus	Posted - 2007.12.10 23:59:00 - [49] Edited by: Jovienus on 11/12/2007 00:03:10 Just gives up trying to explain... Hopefully CCP will look at the issues in a few months and rebuff the torps. In the meantime I'll find something more consistent to do like a crossword. XD
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.11 00:03:00 - [50] Edited by: Gamesguy on 11/12/2007 00:04:28 Originally by: Jovienus Originally by: Gypsio III Quote: And don't even get me started on how **ing stupid that statement was about how this was a pvp boost! thats was just crap! How does this sound. Get a geddon, set to 25km, scramble, nos and kill! Oh look the raven can't do **! Javs, passive tank and MWD disagree. And even if they don't, that's a fantasy 1v1 which is interesting for balance purposes, but not likely to actually happen. Don't people get it! I don't want to PvP! There isn't a buff! There is only a nerf! The nerf being the massive range reduction for torps. All I care about the the Ravens NPC fighting ability thats the only argument, all I was doing with the PVP example was illustrating the complete uselessness of the raven in pvp vs another ship. The raven was perfectly fine as a PvE specialist ship with its medium range torps and its medium rated shield tank. Trying to force a ship that has by nature become a mission runner into a hardcore pvping ship by knee capping it is just silly! Ok perhaps I'm missing something I'm open to an explanation I'm sorry I just don't see a buff here only a nerf... has ccp increase another attribute of the torpedoes to make up for their massively reduced range? Also in answer to the quote post, mate for god sake, if I have to halve my tank just to get close enough to you to smack you then I won't survive long will I? The ravens tank is poor to say the least and thats with heavily reinforcing the shields with resists/invuls and boosters. There is no point running up to someone to smack them in the face if you know 12 secs later you're going to be laying on the floor dying from the lack of protection. And a raven with a MWD!? Man thats just not right. Like you said, you don't know anything about pvp, kindly refrain from making false statements on the raven's pvp abilities till you have done so. The raven as just as good a tank as a megathron, I guess all those legions of blaster fitted mega pilots are all idiots. EDIT: Oh and I like how you admit the raven was ridiculously overpowered in PvE. Like PvE isnt supposed to be balance, one ship should naturally be better than all others at PvE. Raven has been rebalanced, its no longer the king of npcing(although its still probably the best at it with cruise) and no longer worthless in pvp. Don't like it? Too bad.
Revnant Caldari Uninvited Guests Cult of War	Posted - 2007.12.11 00:28:00 - [51] Originally by: Igetshotalot Originally by: Gamesguy Edited by: Gamesguy on 10/12/2007 21:53:42 Thats a ******** comparison. The raven is like a blaster mega, all the people fitting shield boosters are idiots, you fit an extender/invul tank, not an active tank. this qft /thread tbh
Jovienus	Posted - 2007.12.11 00:29:00 - [52] Sigh, I'd like to say that over the years I've seen ccp/eve improve, truth be told, all I have seen is this game change beyond recognition. Just when you think you have something figured out someone goes and changes the bleeding rules. I wonder if they are going to nerf the laws of physics next!?
Jovienus	Posted - 2007.12.11 00:45:00 - [53] Originally by: Gamesguy Edited by: Gamesguy on 11/12/2007 00:04:28 Originally by: Jovienus Originally by: Gypsio III Quote: And don't even get me started on how **ing stupid that statement was about how this was a pvp boost! thats was just crap! How does this sound. Get a geddon, set to 25km, scramble, nos and kill! Oh look the raven can't do *! Javs, passive tank and MWD disagree. And even if they don't, that's a fantasy 1v1 which is interesting for balance purposes, but not likely to actually happen. Don't people get it! I don't want to PvP! There isn't a buff! There is only a nerf! The nerf being the massive range reduction for torps. All I care about the the Ravens NPC fighting ability thats the only argument, all I was doing with the PVP example was illustrating the complete uselessness of the raven in pvp vs another ship. The raven was perfectly fine as a PvE specialist ship with its medium range torps and its medium rated shield tank. Trying to force a ship that has by nature become a mission runner into a hardcore pvping ship by knee capping it is just silly! Ok perhaps I'm missing something I'm open to an explanation I'm sorry I just don't see a buff here only a nerf... has ccp increase another attribute of the torpedoes to make up for their massively reduced range? Also in answer to the quote post, mate for god sake, if I have to halve my tank just to get close enough to you to smack you then I won't survive long will I? The ravens tank is poor to say the least and thats with heavily reinforcing the shields with resists/invuls and boosters. There is no point running up to someone to smack them in the face if you know 12 secs later you're going to be laying on the floor dying from the lack of protection. And a raven with a MWD!? Man thats just not right. Like you said, you don't know anything about pvp, kindly refrain from making false statements on the raven's pvp abilities till you have done so. The raven as just as good a tank as a megathron, I guess all those legions of blaster fitted mega pilots are all idiots. EDIT: Oh and I like how you admit the raven was ridiculously overpowered in PvE. Like PvE isnt supposed to be balance, one ship should naturally be better than all others at PvE. Raven has been rebalanced, its no longer the king of npcing(although its still probably the best at it with cruise) and no longer worthless in pvp. Don't like it? Too bad. Too bad... Yeah nevermind hey, I guess I'll just have to still ccp nerfs something you have trained up to use then I'll hear you whine. I'm just waiting for the reaction nerfs now, those required to rebalance the trinity nerfs. And for the record as far as I was suppose to know* which is only as far as ccp allows me, each racial ship was pushed into a particular direction to fill a particular role. Maybe it wasn't by design but it ended up that way, the raven sat quite happily in its corner as the PvE while the Megathon was happy sitting in the PvP with its sr-blasters corner and the Domi in the tank-a-drone corner and the Geddon in the sr-pulse/tank corner. See a pattern here? Yes everything had a niche to fill.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.11 00:48:00 - [54] Edited by: Gypsio III on 11/12/2007 00:52:57 It's clueless carebear whining like that ^^^ that makes me glad I'm a pirate. PVE is not a role. Ships should be balanced for PVE and PVP. The Raven was uber at PVE and so poor at PVP that people armour-tanked it and loaded up on RSDs. Now it's less good (but still fine) at yet-another-bloody-L4, and far better in PVP, albeit at a single niche role - close-range gang gankage (with a secondary role of being a big juicy target for laserboats).
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests Cult of War	Posted - 2007.12.11 00:51:00 - [55] Originally by: Dirtbag Monika Tier 3 BS are a different animal. They only have 1 damage bonus where raven has 2. Devs stated that tier 3 weren't supposed to be more powerful but to fill a different role so it's comparing apples and oranges. How is an abaddon different from a geddon? They are basically used in very similar ways. Good thing they didnt feel that abaddon needed to copy the apocs role: To suck. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests Cult of War	Posted - 2007.12.11 00:53:00 - [56] Originally by: osrytnot ghaalrk Ok, everyone, let's be honest... The torp nerf that just happened with trinity, is not really a nerf, now is it? It's more like a big boost. CCP, apparently not content with caldari already having the best pve battleship, decides to not only boost its damage output, but through this also make it much more effective in pvp. Disagree? Let me give you an example. Exhibit 1: Raven fitted with 6 Siege Missile Luancher II, 3 Ballistic Control System II's. Exhibit 2: Maelstrom fitted with 8 800mm II, 3 Gyrostabilizers II's So basically fitted for maximum damage (keeping it simple, ofcourse). So we input this into EFT, and get the following dps: Raven: 759 Maelstrom: 666 So basically, a tier 2 battleship outdamages a tier 3 battelship by almost 100 dps. But it doesnt stop there! That dps measurement is at optimal. In other words, a raven will do that damage over its entire range of approximately 30km. The maelstrom only does this at it's optimal of 3km. At optimal + falloff the maelstrom's damage output is halved. So at a range of 23km we have: Raven: 759dps Maelstrom: 333dps So the raven not only outdamages the maelstrom at optimal, but at approx +20km, a raven will do more than 2x the damage! Not exactly balanced i would say... Add to that, the raven will also have 2 extra high slots left, to fit a salvager/tractor, or maybe a nos or something. How can a tier 3 bs be so gimped compared to a tier 2 bs? Seriously this calls for either a minnie boost, or a caldari nerf (however unlikely that will be, ccp loves caldari too much ) Discuss and flame to your heart's content, i've said my piece.. What!? Someone has a weapon system that outdamages your own and tracks better? Welcome to the amarr club. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.12.11 00:54:00 - [57] Originally by: Jovienus rant You have no idea that the torps do more damage, do you? And not a little more, 33% more. Also, I can easily fit a decent tank on a t2 fitted torp raven. And ya, a lot of my skills are 5. 21km on a raven is kind of low, train caldari battleship higher or get better missle skills. Raven wasn't successful in pvp because it could "shoot slowly from 100km away." It was successful because it could field damps and be somewhat useful, and damage any type of POS easily. Nerfing damps effectivily eliminates the need to be at range with a raven unless you're fielding cruise missles + a tank, which is what a sniper DOES. It fits long range weapons. "Kick in the balls for all Raven pilots", if you are a pve-er, in which you simply sell the faction TORP launchers and buy faction CRUISE launchers and go on generating ISK for illegal isk sellers. Raven is now on par with other battleships in PVE and PVP. CCP wins at balancing this time around.
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.12.11 00:56:00 - [58] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer What!? Someone has a weapon system that outdamages your own and tracks better? Welcome to the amarr club. Missles don't track at all, so technically we track the worst At least you don't get constant reduced damage from smaller ships
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.11 00:56:00 - [59] Quote: Too bad... Yeah nevermind hey, I guess I'll just have to still ccp nerfs something you have trained up to use then I'll hear you whine. CCP so far has nerfed torps(no not the current buff, but the javelin nerf a long time ago) 1 week after I finished training them, and ccp has nerfed the only good solo ships my amarr main had(curse, pilgrim), oh and ccp turned half of my t2 ships from laser boats into missile boats overnight. I have no sympathy for you, especially since you can just switch to cruise for PvE. Maybe ccp should turn the raven into a laser boat, that'd be hilarious. Quote: I'm just waiting for the reaction nerfs now, those required to rebalance the trinity nerfs. Reaction nerfs? What reaction nerfs? OMG 5% of the eve's mission running population has switched to a domi instead of a raven! NERF NERF NERF! Quote: And for the record as far as I was suppose to know which is only as far as ccp allows me, each racial ship was pushed into a particular direction to fill a particular role. Maybe it wasn't by design but it ended up that way, the raven sat quite happily in its corner as the PvE while the Megathon was happy sitting in the PvP with its sr-blasters corner and the Domi in the tank-a-drone corner and the Geddon in the sr-pulse/tank corner. See a pattern here? Yes everything had a niche to fill. Bull**. Ravens used to be quite good at pvp, the javelin nerf is when they really got hit hard and stopped being good at pvp. Now they will be good at it once again. All your other BS analogies are ****, megas are good rail platforms too, gank domis do more dps than almost every other non-capital ship, and none of these "corners" are something as ****** as "PvE ONLY ship here!". People use megas and domis to rat/mission, although not remotely as much as ravens, ccp has seen fit to correct that imbalance.
Jovienus	Posted - 2007.12.11 01:01:00 - [60] Hangs head in shame God damn it, after all that no one spotted what I was asking and trying to say. After double checking the bleeding patch notes I finally understood. Now the hard part.... Grrr sorry... let it not be said Jovienus doesn't own up and eat his words... Man thats bitter :P Apparently (thanks to everyone for absolutely not pointing this out by the way) I wasn't aware that the torpedo alteration was 2 fold. 1. Decrease the range dramatically... which to be fair I was querying without knowing fact 2. 2. Siege Launchers had their RoF dramatically increased by 25%. So now that I have the whole picture, I still don't think they should of done that. XD But at least I can understand what the nerf/boost argument was about now. <- Yes I iz muppet don't rub it in too much.
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.12.11 01:05:00 - [61] Originally by: Gamesguy Maybe ccp should turn the raven into a laser boat, that'd be hilarious. Shut up you. On a lighter note, lasers are cooler than missles, but no Amarr bs was changed to missles so... And sadly, half of our ships are already a different weapon type, so no dice there either
Serafeim Odessa Operations Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.11 01:20:00 - [62] Hate to be an EFT warrior but: Ok, a torp raven will outdamage a AC maelstrom easily, agreed. But have you looked at the difference between a cruise raven and an arty maelstrom? the maelstrom outdamages the raven with: Maelstrom: 474 dps (5096 volley damage) Raven: 427 dps (3128 volley damage) Now you see that the maelstrom is better than the Raven when it comes to its long ranged weapons. The fact that the maelstrom will miss more is ofset by the reduced damage vs small ships and the vastly increased time from shooting to actually hitting the target and the fact that cruise missiles can be shot down with defenders. Also, the maelstrom has increadible fitting stats compared to a raven and therefore will be able to fit a much better tank. If your going to compare ships check both types of weapon system. There are always downsides to certain ships and weapon systems.
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection	Posted - 2007.12.11 01:33:00 - [63] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Gorefacer I'm not complaining at all, but your forgetting to factor in the need for a target painter, no instant damage, and the difficulty to hit anything that flies remotely fast with 1500m/s speed torps. Also fitting requirements make it difficult to fit speed mods to the Raven and it is still one of the slower BSs. I love the new change, but there are still massive downsides to using a Raven in PVP. Also I have BS V Torps V and support skills to 3 or 4. I get 17-20km with my torps currently, not 30km. Whether or not the torp changes make the Raven "overpowered" still remains to be seen I think. Your support skills are at 3 and 4... might explain something? Those are 10% bonuses there. Never said I didn't know why didn't get 30km range, just commenting that 30km isn't a given by any means. MOST people will not have 30km range with torps, not that it really makes any difference to this discussion anyway. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
PolyTensor	Posted - 2007.12.11 01:35:00 - [64] so you just got a 33%dmg boost without tracking issues for free and cry? /facepalm
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.12.11 01:38:00 - [65] Originally by: PolyTensor so you just got a 33%dmg boost without tracking issues for free and cry? /facepalm Reduced range and increased explosion radius. Gun users are so bitter
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.11 01:59:00 - [66] Originally by: Gorefacer I'm not complaining at all, but your forgetting to factor in the need for a target painter, no instant damage, and the difficulty to hit anything that flies remotely fast with 1500m/s speed torps. There is no need for a target painter if you're shooting BS. Quote: Also I have BS V Torps V and support skills to 3 or 4. I get 17-20km with my torps currently, not 30km. You're not using a Raven then or you forgot some support skills. My alt has BS3 and gets 22.9km. "...been designed for one purpose and one purpose only. Imagine a handful of repair drones pouring from the carebear's mouth. Now imagine they have um, nothing." -Unknown Hel redesigner (2007)
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.11 02:04:00 - [67] Originally by: Serafeim Now the tempest goes faster, has 4k PG and 280ish CPU left compared to the ravens 1.9k PG and 350 CPU left. As a result the tempest can fit a better tank and do almost as much damage as the raven. Er no, it can't. With that amount of CPU left, the Raven can fit a proper shield tank, while the Tempest cannot. Neither can the Tempest fit a proper armor tank with 3 Gyro II's. Also, the Raven has more HP to start with. "...been designed for one purpose and one purpose only. Imagine a handful of repair drones pouring from the carebear's mouth. Now imagine they have um, nothing." -Unknown Hel redesigner (2007)
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.11 02:11:00 - [68] Originally by: Serafeim [ Now if we compare the tempest and the raven with optimal damage systems we find that they are increadibly alike. (tempest with 6 800mm AC II and 2 Siege II with 3 Gyro II) Raven: 759 dps Tempest: 743 dps Raven with 2 Neutron Blaster II's (yes they fit, no they don't fit comfortably but neither do the Siege II on the Tempest) for valid comparison: 869 dps "...been designed for one purpose and one purpose only. Imagine a handful of repair drones pouring from the carebear's mouth. Now imagine they have um, nothing." -Unknown Hel redesigner (2007)
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection	Posted - 2007.12.11 02:27:00 - [69] Originally by: Lazuran Originally by: Gorefacer I'm not complaining at all, but your forgetting to factor in the need for a target painter, no instant damage, and the difficulty to hit anything that flies remotely fast with 1500m/s speed torps. There is no need for a target painter if you're shooting BS. Quote: Also I have BS V Torps V and support skills to 3 or 4. I get 17-20km with my torps currently, not 30km. You're not using a Raven then or you forgot some support skills. My alt has BS3 and gets 22.9km. What support skills are there other than bombardment and projection that affect torp range? "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.11 02:29:00 - [70] Originally by: Gorefacer Originally by: Lazuran Originally by: Gorefacer I'm not complaining at all, but your forgetting to factor in the need for a target painter, no instant damage, and the difficulty to hit anything that flies remotely fast with 1500m/s speed torps. There is no need for a target painter if you're shooting BS. Quote: Also I have BS V Torps V and support skills to 3 or 4. I get 17-20km with my torps currently, not 30km. You're not using a Raven then or you forgot some support skills. My alt has BS3 and gets 22.9km. What support skills are there other than bombardment and projection that affect torp range? Multiplication ... "...been designed for one purpose and one purpose only. Imagine a handful of repair drones pouring from the carebear's mouth. Now imagine they have um, nothing." -Unknown Hel redesigner (2007)
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.12.11 03:16:00 - [71] Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 11/12/2007 03:20:09 Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 11/12/2007 03:18:51 Original numbers by op are wrong anyway. 8 800mm 2s + 3 gyrostab 2s with EMP L ammo = 700dmg (idk what ammo he was using ) same setup with hail L = 890 dps, same optimal range. Now add that the mael gets a larger drone bay (100 vs 75), and it automatically puts it about 40 dps ahead with drones (210 vs 250 drone dps). Raven with 6 siege launcher 2s + 3 bcu 2s + rage ammo = 990 dps. Hail ammo vs rage ammo, both with drones: Raven 1200 dps; Mael 1144 dps. Also take into account that the rage torps will not hit for full damage against a battleship without target painters. The mael is also better off PG wise and CPU wise with the above fittings. The mael gets a little more HP buffer. But also notice that the ravens bonuses are both geared towards DPS/RANGE, while the mael gets a dps/tank bonus. The 70 dps can easily be curved with the passive 37.5% shield boost amp. To compensate, the raven could field a smartbomb in its extra highslot(s), but it would need fitting mods to fit a large smartbomb and still have a MWD, something it will need to keep the Mael in falloff. I see them as insanely balanced compared to other ships, with the Mael being a tad better off in my opinion. Edit: And for the idiots that lack math skills: max range on a raven with torps is roughly 30km. Theres no argueing with that.
Aakito	Posted - 2007.12.11 05:11:00 - [72] Some key points: 1. 1v1 PvP rarely occurs in comparison with the rest of pvp, 1v1 BS fights occur even less. 2. Fitting tackle gear on a BS in a gang is silly. A MWD is the only required mid slot module, and maybe a web. BS simply lock and fly too slow to tackle targets before they fly off. Gangs have dedicated inties/dictors for the tackle, the BSes are there to blow **** up. 3. Small gang pvp rarely occur beyond a 30km range. Most often its at gates within 20km. ---------------------- Take this into account and the new torps and ravens are the pwn. OP? Only slightly, and only against BSes. Against BC, HACs and whatnot, its crap. Evens out really. While torp raven can start to do damage from further away, a mega has a major advantage in close range pvp. It's 125m3 drones, can be 5 t2 ogres/zerkers for more dps OR a devasting 5x EC-900 ECM drones. Now comparing torp raven versus AC temp/mael or laser geddon/abba and it's clearly better. Especially the fact lasers eat so much cap while doing less dmg .. it aint funny.
Requiescat Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2007.12.11 05:50:00 - [73] Rabble rabble rabble, EFT this, EFT that, my corpmate's gank 'phoon still puts out more damage than my siege raven. BS4, Torp spec 4, Warhead upgrades 4, and my setup has 3 BCS. His setup is 800mm autos/sieges with 2 damage mods for each. It hurts. He also has MWD fitted and still manages to go 1km/s even with 2 plates fitted. Why is no one whining about this setup? Victory - Honor = Loss
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2007.12.11 07:44:00 - [74] Originally by: osrytnot ghaalrk Ok, everyone, let's be honest... The torp nerf that just happened with trinity, is not really a nerf, now is it? It's more like a big boost. CCP, apparently not content with caldari already having the best pve battleship, decides to not only boost its damage output, but through this also make it much more effective in pvp. Disagree? Let me give you an example. Exhibit 1: Raven fitted with 6 Siege Missile Luancher II, 3 Ballistic Control System II's. Exhibit 2: Maelstrom fitted with 8 800mm II, 3 Gyrostabilizers II's So basically fitted for maximum damage (keeping it simple, ofcourse). So we input this into EFT, and get the following dps: Raven: 759 Maelstrom: 666 So basically, a tier 2 battleship outdamages a tier 3 battelship by almost 100 dps. But it doesnt stop there! That dps measurement is at optimal. In other words, a raven will do that damage over its entire range of approximately 30km. The maelstrom only does this at it's optimal of 3km. At optimal + falloff the maelstrom's damage output is halved. So at a range of 23km we have: Raven: 759dps Maelstrom: 333dps So the raven not only outdamages the maelstrom at optimal, but at approx +20km, a raven will do more than 2x the damage! Not exactly balanced i would say... Add to that, the raven will also have 2 extra high slots left, to fit a salvager/tractor, or maybe a nos or something. How can a tier 3 bs be so gimped compared to a tier 2 bs? Seriously this calls for either a minnie boost, or a caldari nerf (however unlikely that will be, ccp loves caldari too much ) Discuss and flame to your heart's content, i've said my piece.. But,the maelstrom can do that and at the same time tank 800 dps(probably 600 with a mwd)and the raven doesnt even come close.

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