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New Garde
g8nk3d
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Posted - 2007.12.12 07:44:00 -
[1]
Sorry if this has been asked before but which one is more effective for the sake of accuracy?
I use a Bellicose and Rupture for sniping. The Bellicose gives a target painter bonus but the Rupture has a greater targeting distance and gives a damage boost. I've typically got 2 Tracking Enhancer IIs in the lows. Thanks.
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Dinslan
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.12.12 08:29:00 -
[2]
A tracking computer II with a tracking script provides 30% extra tracking. It needs Trajectory analysis IV. Best named ( Optical tracking Computer ) is only 24%. If you want range a range script can increase optimal range by 15% ( 12% on best named ). It is stack nerfed with other modules like it ( other Tracking Computers and Tracking Enhancers ).
A Target Painter II ( requires Target Painting IV ) or PWNAGE ( best named ) provides 30% extra signature radius for the target ( equivalent of tracking ), but the signature focussing skill ( prerequisites Target Painting IV ) gives a 5% per level bonus to it.
Cap Usage:
Target Painter II 1.92 cap/s ( with TP IV )
PWNAGE 1.52 cap/s with TP level I ( 1.28 cap/s with TP level IV )
Tracking Computer II 1.5 cap/s
Target painting also helps your missiles ( reduces the damage penalty of small opponents ), drones ( drones need tracking too ) and gangmates.
So all the only advantage for the Tracking Computer is that you can use it for range too.
If you have Tracking Enhancers in the lows, the Tracking Computer will make them less effective too.
Get a painter.
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Pac SubCom
A.W.M
Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.12.12 09:31:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Pac SubCom on 12/12/2007 09:34:20
5% per sig focusing skill PLUS 7.5% per cruiser skill for the Bellicose. That means about 52% better tracking per target painter, excluding stacking, compared to the 30% or a tracking computer. That means a painter on a Bellicose or Recon is 70% better than the computer.
A tracking link on a bonused Logistics is 50% better with max skills. This was changed in Trinity too, making painters the best option for pure tracking support at suitable ranges.
The best answer is: Get both painters and computers/links, because they don't incur the stacking penalty (Sig increase <-> gun tracking speed).
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∞ TQFE
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Acoco Osiris
Gallente
Sublime.
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Posted - 2007.12.12 09:43:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Dinslan
So all the only advantage for the Tracking Computer is that you can use it for range too.
And there's also the little bit about target painters having to be used on a target, while tracking computers you can just boot up and forget about.
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Pac SubCom
A.W.M
Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.12.12 09:47:00 -
[5]
And there's the little bit that painters work for any onlooker, while computers work only for you.
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∞ TQFE
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Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.12.12 09:50:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Acoco Osiris
Originally by: Dinslan
So all the only advantage for the Tracking Computer is that you can use it for range too.
And there's also the little bit about target painters having to be used on a target, while tracking computers you can just boot up and forget about.
TP also has an optimal range, past which it can fail to work.
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Gradient forum |
Dristra
Amarr
Shadows of the Dead
Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.12 10:07:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Acoco Osiris
Originally by: Dinslan
So all the only advantage for the Tracking Computer is that you can use it for range too.
And there's also the little bit about target painters having to be used on a target, while tracking computers you can just boot up and forget about.
TP also has an optimal range, past which it can fail to work.
hardly an issue in cruiser i say.
And the taget painter has been buffet recently(as in all other modules with a similar function have been nerfed), use it before it too gets nerfed in order to "bring it in line"
It's great being Amarr isn't it.
Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr!
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Guo Nian
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Posted - 2007.12.12 10:08:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ryysa, The Definitive guide to Electronic Warfare
Target Painting
Short Description:
Target Painting increases the signature size of the target.
Methods of application:
Modules - Target Painters are midslot modules, the main characteristics of which are signature increase amount, optimal range and falloff.
Working Mechanism:
The working mechanism of target painters is fairly simple.
To calculate the increase that a target painter gives to the signature radius of an object, we use the following formula:
S = S0 * (100% + P)
Where S0 is the objects original signature radius, P the target painters signature increase bonus and S the final signature radius with the painter applied.
Please note that target painters are subject to stacking penalties and have a falloff range, please refer to sections 8 and 9 to see how these affect the effectiveness of multiple painters or when painters are used outside of their optimal range.
Modules/Rigs affecting:
Rigs:
Particle Dispersion Projector - 20% increase to optimal range for T1 version, 25% for T2.
Skills affecting:
Target Painting - 5% Reduction to capacitor need per skill level.
Signature Focusing - 5% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per skill level.
Long Distance Jamming - 10% bonus to optimal range per skill level.
Frequency Modulation - 10% bonus to falloff per skill level.
Specialized ships:
The target painting bonus is part of minmatar ships.
Vigil - Frigate, 5% bonus to target painter effectiveness per level.
Bellicose - Cruiser, 7.5% bonus to target painter effectiveness per level.
Huginn/Rapier - Recons, 7.5% bonus to target painter effectiveness per cruiser level.
Counters:
None
Examples:
Let's try to illustrate why target painting is sometimes useful.
A raven shoots a caracal with a torpedo.
A torpedo has an explosion radius of 400m.
A caracal has a signature radius of 145m.
Due to how missiles work, the torpedo does:
145/400 * 100% = 36.25% of it's normal damage.
If our torpedo would normally do 500 damage, it would now only do 181.25 damage against the caracal.
Now, let's assume the raven is using two t2 target painters without any advanced skills on the caracal.
Signature radius bonus from one T2 target painter: 30%
Signature radius of Caracal with two target painters applied:
145m*(1+0.3)*(1+0.3*0.87) ~ 237.7m
Torpedo damage with two painters:
237.7/400 * 100% = 59.425% of normal damage.
If our torpedo did 500 damage, it would do ~ 297.1 damage after the painters have been applied, which is about 64% more damage than without the painters.
Of course, signature radius affects other things such as locking speed, turret tracking etc.
Read through this page of the page for some more insight.
HERE
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Pac SubCom
A.W.M
Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.12.12 10:14:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Pac SubCom on 12/12/2007 10:16:32
Albeit transversals diminish with range.
And a Recon that doesn't waste slots for role un-related things like disruptors or dampeners can fit enough target painters to help even at sniper ranges.
Quote:
Of course, signature radius affects other things such as locking speed, turret tracking etc
Which happens to be the primary use. Minmatar generally use turrets, especially artillery, not torpedoes.
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∞ TQFE
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Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation
Knights Of Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.12.12 10:34:00 -
[10]
Anyone have the actual turret damage formula handy?
I guess you could look at the formula and see when it's advantageous to fit one or the other.
-Liang
--
Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU.
Yarr? |
Saietor Blackgreen
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Posted - 2007.12.12 10:45:00 -
[11]
Originally by: New Garde
Sorry if this has been asked before but which one is more effective for the sake of accuracy?
Take your gun's attributes and put them into the calculator that's in the end of tracking guide. Play around with values of tracking/target sig/range/transversal and you'll see which is better when.
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Lowanaera
Amarr
Celestial Janissaries
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.12 10:50:00 -
[12]
An increase to sig radius and an increase to tracking can be functionally compared as equivalent on a percentage vs percentage basis. Here's why-
The formula for accuracy is (0.5^((((Transv/(Range*Tracking))*(Sig_Res/Sig_Rad))^2) +((max(0,Range-Optimal))/Falloff)^2))
We're just concerned with the exponent calculation of the first part: (Transv/(Range*Tracking))*(Sig_Res/Sig_Rad)
Simplified to this degree we can see that an increase in either tracking or radius can be rewritten in the same way: multiplying this entire section of the equation by the inverse. Since it's an exponent of .5, the smaller the exponent becomes the closer to 1 the result approaches.
For example, the painter in question increases sig radius by 52% according to the post earlier this thread, a TC increases tracking by 30%.
Sig_Res / (1.52 * Sig_Rad) = 0.658 * Sig_Res / Sig_Rad
Transv / (Range * 1.3 * Tracking) = 0.769 * Transv / (Range * Tracking)
If we simplify (Transv/(Range*Tracking))*(Sig_Res/Sig_Rad) as x, we get:
.5^(.433x^2) vs .5^(.591x^2)
So the painter is the winner here.
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Dinslan
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.12.12 11:02:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Guo Nian
Read through this page of the page for some more insight.
HERE
That's a very good link. It's well worth reading (post 129 onwards by Ishina Fel ), she compares a Target Painter to a Tracking Computer using the interactive tracking guide to produce this lovely screenshot.
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Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2007.12.12 11:12:00 -
[14]
I've been waiting for this thread, very pleased with the statistical performance on this very underrated mod.
___
Eve Players are not very smart.
Support Killmail Overhaul
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Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
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Posted - 2007.12.12 14:49:00 -
[15]
The fans have been asking for target painters to be buffed for ages, and what does ccp do instead? Nerf everything to bring them in line with TP's. Lol.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Enuma Elish.
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Posted - 2007.12.12 14:53:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Nian Banks
The fans have been asking for target painters to be buffed for ages, and what does ccp do instead? Nerf everything to bring them in line with TP's. Lol.
Sometimes that's the most efficient solution.
--
Crane needs more grid
249km locking?
GMP and TNP |
Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
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Posted - 2007.12.12 16:06:00 -
[17]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Originally by: Nian Banks
The fans have been asking for target painters to be buffed for ages, and what does ccp do instead? Nerf everything to bring them in line with TP's. Lol.
Sometimes that's the most efficient solution.
True enough, but this time isn't one of those times.
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Orakkus
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Posted - 2007.12.12 17:29:00 -
[18]
So.. are you all saying that the TP now has value (relative to the other E-War modules?)
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New Garde
g8nk3d
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Posted - 2007.12.12 18:08:00 -
[19]
Thanks for all the replies. Just the info I was looking for.
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