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Themick Mccoy
24
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 16:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
I recently read, though for the life of me I cannot recall where, a quote that said to the effect; "Null-sec needs new blood. The past three years the same people have been fighting each other, just cycled around."What causes this? Why is it that the newer players do not get involved with null-sec?
This morning I got a wild hair up- well, you don't need the details, but suffice it to say, I was bored. I went on an adventure 86 jumps throughout Null/Low-sec. I witnessed good fights, ransoms, evaded gatecamps and bubbles. I met some pilots and bs was shot aplenty. I, in the span of a few hours, witnessed much more exciting things happening than can be said for empire space.This is where the real game was being played and in my opinion, the newer players need to experience this.
I have friends that are fps whores, and tabletop nerds, but when shown The Butterfly Effect trailer, they became interested in EVE. This idea that one can participate in massive conflicts that can see thousands of real people square off in border disputes, villainous raids, or wars of conquest is intriguing. Sov conflict, the idea of it, is what brings new players.
I hardly am influential, but if there were one thing I could charge CSM6 and CSM7 with, it would be to worry about the game's newest generation. Without new players the game will eventually die out. My new goal is to bubble a super....but who is going to kill it for me? |

Cass Lie
State War Academy Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 16:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
Fun fact: Test and the Goons, which both have (significant) representation in CSM6, are heavily newbie oriented alliances. Also Mittani&co. were actively pushing to improving the new player experience, though it still has plenty of room for improvement. Mittani is even fixated on this weird idea of revamping rookie ships so that they would look cooler from the get go.
If only someone could devise a mechanic which would make the newbies realize that joining a decent corp and losing that risk aversion are good things. |

Dradius Calvantia
Creative Cookie Procuring Rote Kapelle
238
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 17:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
The problem there is not with the game mechanics. The problem is the extremely large number of bears that constantly proclaim that living in null sec is impossible and the only way to play the game is to grind the same 10 minutes of PVE content over and over again in the safety net of high sec.
|

Skydell
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
133
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Posted - 2012.02.04 17:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
The vitriol in EVE is what puts the run to most noobs and it's in high sec, low sec and null sec. Its here on the forums, its in local chat its on TS and vent.
Some take thier epeen a little more serious than others but the malice is what makes EVE unattractive. |

Themick Mccoy
24
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 17:38:00 -
[5] - Quote
I agree with the points you both make, especially Dradius. I am a newer player myself and can honestly state that quite a few people in Empire are veteran carebears that will tell anyone with an open ear about the one time years ago when they got the ******* to actually try to go to 0.0 and were killed by "those bastards."
Positive propaganda for null-sec is sparse. I think if there wasn't so many bitter tears from people who take make believe spaceships so serious new players wouldn't be so scared.
If they get killed, seeing it as a lesson should be more important than crying about the loss, but for some this proves too much. My new goal is to bubble a super....but who is going to kill it for me? |

Honnete Du Decimer
27
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 17:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
"Fun fact" half reason no one go null sec is because no like the people already, who live there. PMS |

Famble
Three's a Crowd
280
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 17:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
You can't be your own boss and live in null. You must corp up and that means you no longer enjoy total freedom. If you're cool with that then there's no reason to not, at the very least, check it out. If you like playing alone, on your own schedule then null will never work for you.
If anyone ever looks at you and says, "Hold my beer, watch this,"-á you're probably going to want to pay attention. |

Themick Mccoy
24
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 17:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
Famble wrote:You can't be your own boss and live in null. You must corp up and that means you no longer enjoy total freedom. If you're cool with that then there's no reason to not, at the very least, check it out. If you like playing alone, on your own schedule then null will never work for you.
It would seem to me that EVE is infinitely more difficult solo. My new goal is to bubble a super....but who is going to kill it for me? |

KrakizBad
Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension
332
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 18:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
Themick Mccoy wrote:Famble wrote:You can't be your own boss and live in null. You must corp up and that means you no longer enjoy total freedom. If you're cool with that then there's no reason to not, at the very least, check it out. If you like playing alone, on your own schedule then null will never work for you. It would seem to me that EVE is infinitely more difficult solo. It is. There are a plethora of good solo spaceships games for the anti-social. EVE isn't one of them.
Also the anti-null sentiment is en vogue on the forums, don't take it personally. Null is where the game is at, and there are lots of noob friendly options, especially in the CFC. http://i.imgur.com/cOmMP.gif |

baltec1
539
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 18:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
[Rifter, Nubbins] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot]
1MN MicroWarpdrive I Warp Disruptor I [empty med slot]
Salvager I [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
[empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot]
This nub is now ready for 0.0 life. |

Janis Ezra
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 18:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
Cass Lie wrote:Fun fact: Test and the Goons, which both have (significant) representation in CSM6, are heavily newbie oriented alliances.
Fun fact: They are heavy oriented in scamming newbies. Good luck with joining goons or test without getting scammed, or spending endless time on a stupid forum to get invited. Dont spread false informations in a thread about newbies and null. |

Dradius Calvantia
Creative Cookie Procuring Rote Kapelle
239
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 18:25:00 -
[12] - Quote
Janis Ezra wrote:Cass Lie wrote:Fun fact: Test and the Goons, which both have (significant) representation in CSM6, are heavily newbie oriented alliances. Fun fact: They are heavy oriented in scamming newbies. Good luck with joining goons or test without getting scammed, or spending endless time on a stupid forum to get invited. Dont spread false informations in a thread about newbies and null.
Goons only scam the idiots who let themselves get scammed.
|

Honnete Du Decimer
27
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 18:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
Themick Mccoy wrote:...It would seem to me that EVE is infinitely more difficult solo.
Large high sec alliance many group for
- mining - mission - Incursion - roam Low Sec - raid WHs.
All time something for do for few hour and no worry CTA. No worry politic. No worry ego rubbish null sec. PMS |

Cass Lie
State War Academy Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 18:32:00 -
[14] - Quote
Janis Ezra wrote:Cass Lie wrote:Fun fact: Test and the Goons, which both have (significant) representation in CSM6, are heavily newbie oriented alliances. Fun fact: They are heavy oriented in scamming newbies. Good luck with joining goons or test without getting scammed, or spending endless time on a stupid forum to get invited. Dont spread false informations in a thread about newbies and null.
What do you get out of scamming a newbie? A rifter? They scam dumb established players routinely, because they are too lazy to read up on goonswarm. But they also make large recruitment drives in their respective out of game communities and have extensive newb helping programs in place (such as the goon wiki, which is one of the best introductory recourses lying around). Which other large null alliance does that? Also, the Goonswarm Federation is not only GoonWaffe you know.
Now I feel really really dirty for defending the goons. Damn you Janis. |

baltec1
539
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 18:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
Janis Ezra wrote:Cass Lie wrote:Fun fact: Test and the Goons, which both have (significant) representation in CSM6, are heavily newbie oriented alliances. Fun fact: They are heavy oriented in scamming newbies. Good luck with joining goons or test without getting scammed, or spending endless time on a stupid forum to get invited. Dont spread false informations in a thread about newbies and null.
Why would goons bother scamming nubs who have zero assets?
|

Themick Mccoy
24
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Posted - 2012.02.04 18:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
Quote:......All time something for do for few hour and no worry CTA. No worry politic. No worry ego rubbish null sec.
Please do not quote on part of a person's post, it tends to give the wrong impression. Case in point, the example above makes it out that you cannot complete a sentence.
It can also be used to quote someone out-of-context. I did not mention incursions, high -sec mining or missioning in a group because I was responding to a post I quoted in which the author mentioned soloing.
Please keep this discussion going in a positive manner. The topic was new player aversion to null-sec. My new goal is to bubble a super....but who is going to kill it for me? |

Dark Drifter
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
14
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Posted - 2012.02.04 18:37:00 -
[17] - Quote
my personal take on null sec is this:
first- gaining a foothold as a small corp/alliance is nei-on impossible in "sov" space without attracting the attentions of the 2 blocks eitherside of you. you will spend more time attempting to fend off people than actuly playing EVE the way you want to.
second- cost of becoming a fully self sufficient alliance in null is hanus. the cost of holding even one system is still rather high for a small alliance. TCUs and I hub upgrades alone will cost you the better half of a billion to just purchase and set up. then you have to worry about POSs that's another 2-300mill a month ontop of your SOV holding bill. so for a month of just holding down the sov in a sys it will cost over a billion.
third- point 2 brings me to player stations... WTF its 20-30 billion just to set one up then you have to move all the items required for it witch will no doubt attract the attentions of well everyone (when your alliance can only muster 100 or so people at the best of times this becomes problematic) and fending off 6-700man supercap fleets is well... never going to happen. and finaly insult to injury as soon as the station is up its going to be seiged and you will be pushed back to LOw/high sec whilst your station is taken over by the same 700 man supa fleet that destroyed your logistics department.
fourth- the seystem that you can settle are so few and fat between ( my last count was 100 or so non drone SOV systems) that getting to them to set up shop will be like taking a spoon to a tank to kill it.
TBH i know that is seems like there is a lot of hate for the current state of 0.0 in this post / but it dose have its good sides.
0.0 runs are fun and 9 times out of ten you will be under estimated and may come out on top.
===THINGS I WOULD CHANGE===
1- decrease the cost of holding a single system and add 10% to that cost for every system there after. IE: 1 sys with TCU and IHUB 50 million a month, 2 systems same set up 110 million a month and so on with Ihub upgrades costing 10mill a month (fir 1st level) up to 50mill (at 5th level). have all strategic upgrades cost a flat 100 million a month
2-cut the cost of outpost construction to a 3rd of current ISK cost and decrease required goods by 50%.
3- creat more entry points to sov and NPC null |

Ashina Sito
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 18:41:00 -
[18] - Quote
Eve needs more NPC 0.0.
Sov space is sparsely populated and safe to operate in. NPC space has more activity and that activity increases with more stations.
It is easier to get set up in NPC 0.0. You can play as a solo pilot in NPC 0.0 I went to Syndicate at 3 months old solo. There is room for new players and corps to head out and test the waters of NPC space.
More NPC space was a cornerstone of my CSM 5 election platform, here is a link to that if you want more to read.
http://ashina.bravejournal.com/
Sov space allows you to be a sheep to those long existing older groups and players. NPC space is for the newer players and those who want PvP action rather then sitting around twiddling their thumbs waiting for a Fleet fight to take/defend a moon/station.
I took a PvP noob training fleet out this week and when in sov space their defensive tactic was to mostly warp away, dock up and hide till we left.
More NPC 0.0 = more new players in 0.0. |

RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
1368
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 18:44:00 -
[19] - Quote
Famble wrote:You can't be your own boss and live in null. You must corp up and that means you no longer enjoy total freedom. If you're cool with that then there's no reason to not, at the very least, check it out. If you like playing alone, on your own schedule then null will never work for you.
o/ NPC Null, what are you doing over there? Single-Shard, Player Driven Sandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special in my eyes. |

Honnete Du Decimer
27
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 18:45:00 -
[20] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Why would goons bother scamming nubs who have zero assets?
"Lulz" destroy innocence, kill game. PMS |

gfldex
313
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 18:49:00 -
[21] - Quote
Janis Ezra wrote:Fun fact: They are heavy oriented in scamming newbies. Good luck with joining goons or test without getting scammed, or spending endless time on a stupid forum to get invited. Dont spread false informations in a thread about newbies and null.
You mean those newbies who happen to have the rather large amount for several billion ISK? I'm terribly sorry but you are getting noobs wrong with newbies. Goons scam noobs because they don't want to recruit them. The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson |

Honnete Du Decimer
27
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 18:51:00 -
[22] - Quote
Themick Mccoy wrote:new player aversion to null-sec. Quote:.High sec large alliance = (No worry CTA. No worry politic. No worry ego rubbish null sec.)
Fini. PMS |

Indahmawar Fazmarai
The I and F Taxation Trust
226
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 18:52:00 -
[23] - Quote
Themick Mccoy wrote:I recently read, though for the life of me I cannot recall where, a quote that said to the effect; "Null-sec needs new blood. The past three years the same people have been fighting each other, just cycled around."What causes this? Why is it that the newer players do not get involved with null-sec?
This morning I got a wild hair up- well, you don't need the details, but suffice it to say, I was bored. I went on an adventure 86 jumps throughout Null/Low-sec. I witnessed good fights, ransoms, evaded gatecamps and bubbles. I met some pilots and bs was shot aplenty. I, in the span of a few hours, witnessed much more exciting things happening than can be said for empire space.This is where the real game was being played and in my opinion, the newer players need to experience this.
I have friends that are fps whores, and tabletop nerds, but when shown The Butterfly Effect trailer, they became interested in EVE. This idea that one can participate in massive conflicts that can see thousands of real people square off in border disputes, villainous raids, or wars of conquest is intriguing. Sov conflict, the idea of it, is what brings new players.
I hardly am influential, but if there were one thing I could charge CSM6 and CSM7 with, it would be to worry about the game's newest generation. Without new players the game will eventually die out.
I have a revolutionary idea... if most players choose to stay in hisec, make hisec the most interesting thing to do in game rather than try and shanghai them into playing nullsec *wink, wink* 
|

Themick Mccoy
24
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 18:53:00 -
[24] - Quote
Dark, I read your post and I agree with some of your points. Sov bills are too damn high in general. The other points you make about a new corp/alliance making headway into Sov space can be fix by politics. Yes politics. There are Sov alliances out there that are I am sure a bunch of dastardly bastards who want no one else to hold Sov, but there are also a fair share that I am sure are open to diplomatic approach. No one can control all of 0.0.
That is why coalitions are formed. That is why alliances allow others into their space. I admitted earlier that I am new, but I have read about how in the past such-and-such alliance got kicked out of their space and this-or-that group shared space with them until they got back up on their feet.
I think in the end there are quite a few things wrong with null that need to be changed, and they were brought up in the winter minutes. Sov bills are retardedly(sic) expensive. Tech moons either need a rebalance or need to be tied in with Sov ownership in my opinion. However, these things can be worked around with perseverance, and determination. My new goal is to bubble a super....but who is going to kill it for me? |

Themick Mccoy
24
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 19:03:00 -
[25] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:I have a revolutionary idea... if most players choose to stay in hisec, make hisec the most interesting thing to do in game rather than try and shanghai them into playing nullsec *wink, wink* 
Like I said in the OP, it isn't High-sec in my opinion that draws people to the game, it is the sov wars. EVE isn't, from what I have seen, advertised from the angle of high-sec. It isn't marketed to be a "safe" game.
Also, if high-sec isn't the most interesting, why are the players there? Is it a difference between what the game is marketed as from what it has turned out to be? Where is the breakdown coming in at? Are you saying that most people are missioners, miners and marketers in high-sec? Please expand upon your post. Also, if you were to change the direction of the game away from null-sec, would you be also willing to give up the largest draw for new players? To be honest I haven't heard of anyone wanting to start to play eve because they saw missioning and thought it was cool. My new goal is to bubble a super....but who is going to kill it for me? |

Themick Mccoy
24
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 19:19:00 -
[26] - Quote
PRO TRIPLE POST!
Honnete Du Decimer wrote:Themick Mccoy wrote:new player aversion to null-sec. Quote:.High sec large alliance = (No worry CTA. No worry politic. No worry ego rubbish null sec.) Fini.
If I were to try and interpret your post I would say that your message is that new players are suppose to forget about null-sec, and stick with high-sec alliances.
While you have stated a couple pro's for high-sec, let's run down the cons:
**** high-sec wardecing mechanics, repetitive game-play,
Also scamming is far more prevalent in high-sec, as are idiotic egomaniacs. In an earlier post you listed roaming low-sec and wormhole raids, but since these are not high-sec activities, they can not be listed as a high-sec positive. Incursions also happen in null, so there goes that bit also. You state; "Fini," I, on the other hand, disagree wholeheartedly.
$0.02 deposited. My new goal is to bubble a super....but who is going to kill it for me? |

Feligast
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1071
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 19:55:00 -
[27] - Quote
Themick Mccoy wrote:Dark, I read your post and I agree with some of your points. Sov bills are too damn high in general. The other points you make about a new corp/alliance making headway into Sov space can be fix by politics. Yes politics. There are Sov alliances out there that are I am sure a bunch of dastardly bastards who want no one else to hold Sov, but there are also a fair share that I am sure are open to diplomatic approach. No one can control all of 0.0.
That is why coalitions are formed. That is why alliances allow others into their space. I admitted earlier that I am new, but I have read about how in the past such-and-such alliance got kicked out of their space and this-or-that group shared space with them until they got back up on their feet.
I think in the end there are quite a few things wrong with null that need to be changed, and they were brought up in the winter minutes. Sov bills are retardedly(sic) expensive. Tech moons either need a rebalance or need to be tied in with Sov ownership in my opinion. However, these things can be worked around with perseverance, and determination.
People don't want to use perserverance or determination.. they want things handed to them, like it is in hisec. Many people are so scared of even losing a frigate, they would never dream of going into lowsec for fear of evil pirates.
Goonfleet was formed long after the major players of nullsec were firmly established (Band of Brothers in particular), and we were regarded as hilarious children that would soon be put in our place by the mighty BoB. As you said, we were kicked (well, sov-billed) out of our space more than once, but we were taken in by a great group of people who called themselves Tau Ceti Federation. They let us crash on their couch in Deklein, get back on our feet, and train up into ships bigger than rifters. A couple years later, and you see what has happened, for good or bad, whatever your perspective.
Bottom line, make friends. Friends are the most important resource in Eve, and very, VERY few people, corps, or alliances can go far without them. |

Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
384
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 20:05:00 -
[28] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:I have a revolutionary idea... if most players choose to stay in hisec, make hisec the most interesting thing to do in game rather than try and shanghai them into playing nullsec *wink, wink* 
The problem here is that if hisec were as you suggest, then there'd be noone to run the null RMT empires. We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX! |

foxnod
BOAE INC GIANTSBANE.
20
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 20:13:00 -
[29] - Quote
Dradius Calvantia wrote:The problem there is not with the game mechanics. The problem is the extremely large number of bears that constantly proclaim that living in null sec is impossible and the only way to play the game is to grind the same 10 minutes of PVE content over and over again in the safety net of high sec.
I've seen the same thing. New players start in highsec, so the first group they're going to be exposed to are the losers who can do nothing but rant and rave about nullsec and it's inhabitants.
We have a training corp set up to get newer players into the nullsec lifestyle and we take them out roams through null/low with the vets to get them used to the lifestyle.
I used to recommend that newer players start off in renter alliances to get some experiance; I don't anymore since I've seen that the crappy renter alliances totally ruin people's first experiences. |

Fredfredbug4
Kings of Kill EVE Animal Control
35
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 20:17:00 -
[30] - Quote
I think the main problem is that PVP is just expensive. When you are a noob you will make a mistake (taking bait, underestimating opponents, bad ship fittings etc) and those mistakes will cause you too lose ships. Losing ships = losing money.
New players don't go to null sec as much because that's not where the money is. And even if their intention was to eventually go into null they later decide not to because they have everything in Hi-Sec
Solution- Take things out of hi-sec or make the stuff in null more common. |
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