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James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:04:00 - [61] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 13/12/2007 13:14:25 Originally by: Tarminic T2 Stasis Webifiers - Equal or worse than their T1 counterparts in every way. Incorrect. T2 web = 90% speed reduction for 1.2-1.5M (forgot, but very sure it's less then 2M) Fleeting web = 90% speed reduction for 6-7M (fitting is easier and slightly better cap use) I will always tell people to use T2 if they can fit it. Saving 5M is nothing to laugh at, and the cap difference doesn't even matter on a frig, not to mention anything bigger. After all, you do all have propulsion jamming IV, right? I'm sorry, you seem to be under the impression that that price is something other than an arbitrary value assessment by the people buying them. Or to set this in context, have a look at the situation where top named is T2 with better fittings. In every single case, the top named will be more expensive. And in all the cases where T2 is better than top named, and you're trading higher fittings, for 'more effectiveness' (e.g. shield boosters, guns) the T2 is more expensive. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Raekone	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:29:00 - [62] Originally by: James Lyrus I'm sorry, you seem to be under the impression that that price is something other than an arbitrary value assessment by the people buying them. So you fit nothing but the best officer loot. Gotcha.
Rawr Cristina Caldari Cult of Rawr	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:38:00 - [63] Adaptive Nano Plating II More obselete than useless. Obseleted by the Best Named version of this module which is 25% better, or the Faction version which is 50% better (almost as good as EANM II) and still very cheap -----
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:38:00 - [64] Originally by: Raekone Originally by: James Lyrus I'm sorry, you seem to be under the impression that that price is something other than an arbitrary value assessment by the people buying them. So you fit nothing but the best officer loot. Gotcha. Where did I say that? At all? No, I don't think so. There's utterly no need to be asnine when you fail to understand what someone posts. You see, fleeting webs have no fundamental price to them. Their market value is determined _entirely_ from rarity vs. demand. A T2 web has a baseline cost of manufacture, and then a bit of a rarity skew - the latter is the lesser component, because in theory anyone can go invent a T2 web. A fleeting web is in all ways better than a T2 web, therefore it costs more. If it were the other way around, then I can guarantee you that the pricing situation would also be reversed. Therefore the 'they're better because they're cheaper' argument is a fallacy. They're not better because they're cheaper, they're cheaper because they're worse. In some realms of T2 you see a tradeoff being made - top named typically being easier to fit, and easier on the cap, where T2 is 'better'. It is therefore worth my time fitting a prototype gauss railgun on it's own merits compared to a railgun II - the prototype gauss uses less cap, and is significantly easier to fit. The railgun II can use T2 ammo, and gets specialisation skill bonus. This is not the case in the T2 web vs. fleeting web situation - the latter is just in all ways a better choice to fit, in every situation. And thus the price is driven up. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:01:00 - [65] The FEROX Oh wait... you wanted a useless MODULE... My vote goes for the shield flux coil. Reducing total shield to boost recharge rate is partially self-defeating on this mod. If the capacity wasn't reduced as much then this mod would have a use... maybe... __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Raekone	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:31:00 - [66] Originally by: James Lyrus Therefore the 'they're better because they're cheaper' argument is a fallacy. They're not better because they're cheaper, they're cheaper because they're worse. Look ISK doesn't grow on trees you know. Obvoiusly you pay a higher price for things that are in greater demand, typically things with higher stats on them, but that doesn't make them "better" to someone who has a budget. An Estamel's Uber Whatsit Hardener would not be better for me than a regular Whatsit Hardener II since the price would completely upset any other plans I might have had for buying ships/modules - no matter how hard my whatsit would become. You're trivialising cost and imposing upon people your own very personal views of what is "good". Money matters to people you know. It's one of the basic lessons of growing up.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:48:00 - [67] "If the capacity wasn't reduced as much then this mod would have a use..." It does have a use I went out my way to get 10 of them. A very, very limited use mind you, but still a use. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:53:00 - [68] And are you going to divulge that special use? You've raised my curiosity now, please do tell. Or is it a tightly guarded war secret?
Xauxau	Posted - 2007.12.13 16:09:00 - [69] Originally by: James Lyrus Therefore the 'they're better because they're cheaper' argument is a fallacy. They're not better because they're cheaper, they're cheaper because they're worse. You're being obtuse. The seller lowers the price in order to increase the inferior module's relative utility or "usefulness" vs. the "better" version. Just like when deciding what car to buy in the real world, cost is a factor that most players need to consider when determining whether they are going to actually use a module. Especially so when the module is primarily PvP focused, like a web. Cheaper = shorter recvovery time when ship inevitably kapowed = "better" for player. Sure I might be able to get a theoretically "better" PvP cruiser by outfitting it with officer mods in all slots. The reality, though, is that those officer mods are "useless" because they cost too much ISK to risk losing in PvP.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2007.12.13 16:24:00 - [70] Originally by: Pottsey "If the capacity wasn't reduced as much then this mod would have a use..." It does have a use I went out my way to get 10 of them. A very, very limited use mind you, but still a use. Care to divulge that limited use? I'm open to suggestions for this mod other than reprocessing it. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.13 16:31:00 - [71] Originally by: Xauxau Originally by: James Lyrus Therefore the 'they're better because they're cheaper' argument is a fallacy. They're not better because they're cheaper, they're cheaper because they're worse. You're being obtuse. The seller lowers the price in order to increase the inferior module's relative utility or "usefulness" vs. the "better" version. Just like when deciding what car to buy in the real world, cost is a factor that most players need to consider when determining whether they are going to actually use a module. Especially so when the module is primarily PvP focused, like a web. Cheaper = shorter recvovery time when ship inevitably kapowed = "better" for player. Sure I might be able to get a theoretically "better" PvP cruiser by outfitting it with officer mods in all slots. The reality, though, is that those officer mods are "useless" because they cost too much ISK to risk losing in PvP. You too, appear to have missed the point. You see, NPC dropped modules have a correlation between rarity and utility - an estamels office awesome mod is expensive, both because it is rare, and because it is generally very good in it's primary stat. However a T2 or T1 mod is not rarity limited - they both have an underlying cost to construction, and as the price fluctuates, manufacturing shifts to compensate. You seem to be making the assumption that the fact that one module is more expensive than the other, means it's ok that one is better. But the thing you're missing, is that that T2 module's price pressure is not constrained by the same limiting factors. In fact I'd pretty much guarantee that if the T2 module was, in some way, better than the top named module in question, the price of the T2 module would remain approximately the same, but the price of the T1 module would drop dramatically, as the demand would decrease sharply too. However the module would not be obseleted by the T2 - it would still have residual value based around it's ease of fitting, and lower skill requirements when compared to the T2 module. You see this situation when you e.g. look at BS guns, or armour repairers. Basically, T2 and T1 have a variable supply, which shifts to support demand for the item. Named/meta/officer modules do not, in a real sense, have a variable supply - no one goes mission grinding because they want a fleeting webber, they mission run because they want isks, and if a fleeting webber drops, they either use or sell it. So the fact that the T1 module is in all ways better than the T2 is what drives the price up, rather than the other way around. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.12.13 17:06:00 - [72] ôCare to divulge that limited use? I'm open to suggestions for this mod other than reprocessing it.ö I have a fun ship with a 14 second passive recharge. ItÆs not effective, its not better then other options but it sure is fun. Rarely flux modules are better then PDS. If you fit say 5 SPRÆs then a 6th or 7th SPR might kill your cap to much. In this case your butter of with a 6 and 7th flux module over PDS, maybe. Personally I prefer the PDS but from a HP regen point of view the flux T2 is better. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Futher Bezluden Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.13 17:25:00 - [73] add interdictors to that list. THUKKER -Be Paranoid Skeet Skeet L33t
Last Wolf Templars of Space	Posted - 2007.12.13 17:37:00 - [74] Javlin, Quake, Gleam. And, since faction ammo became farmable: Void, Conflag. Hail is still useful for high damage explosive, isntead of EM or therm. Also, 50/100 cap booster charges. And, dare I say it? most, if not all, Assault Frigs. tech 1 cruisers are faster to train for, have more damage, more tank, and cheaper. I guess a 90km harpy pod popper is useful, if it can still get those ranges and lock times after the sensorbooster/tracking computer nerf.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.13 17:51:00 - [75] Originally by: Last Wolf I guess a 90km harpy pod popper is useful, if it can still get those ranges and lock times after the sensorbooster/tracking computer nerf. Not really. Cormorant is pretty much in all ways better at it. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2007.12.13 20:30:00 - [76] Edited by: Omarvelous on 13/12/2007 20:33:31 Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Last Wolf I guess a 90km harpy pod popper is useful, if it can still get those ranges and lock times after the sensorbooster/tracking computer nerf. Not really. Cormorant is pretty much in all ways better at it. I've been testing this theory out and I'm not so sure about that statement. Cormorant has 7 gun slots firing 25% slower (5.25 effective turrets). Assault Frigate IV has +20% damage for 4 turrets (4.8 effective turrets). However - the Cormorant only has 1 low slot, and the Harpy 2 low slots - you could theoretically have 1 more Magnetic Field Stabilizer on a Harpy for 8.87% additional damage AND 8.87% faster rate of fire. Did I mention trying to fit 7 150 II's on a Cormorant and ANYTHING else is hopeless without a fitting mod (further weakening your damage)? Cormorant IV has a flat +50% range bonus + 40% (Destroyer IV) = 90% range. Assault Frigate IV -> Harpy has +50% (frig V) +40% (assault IV) = +90% range TIE Bot have similar mid slot arrangements. Tank and maneuverability go to the Harpy as well (much smaller sig radius, and much nicer native resists). I say small target sniping crown goes to Harpy, however it also takes a person longer to train for a Harpy vs a Cormorant - so if a Cormorant is all you have for that task - go for it. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
GateScout	Posted - 2007.12.13 20:54:00 - [77] Originally by: Darth Nerf Originally by: GateScout Any auto-targeting module. Totally pointless. Not true. It gives the ship the ability for +2 locked targets. You'd give up a mid-slot to lock 2 additional targets? Are you serious?
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.12.13 20:56:00 - [78] ôYou'd give up a mid-slot to lock 2 additional targets? Are you serious? ö ItÆs not a mid slot and its +4 locks among other stuff. If your locking speeds it slow the auto lock will give you a lock in 5 seconds or less. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Nova Wildstar	Posted - 2007.12.13 22:57:00 - [79] I still think the Autotargeting mod is useless because it doesn't do what it's supposed to do. The description states that it locks any HOSTILE SHIPS... Anytime I have used it, it usually locks something BESIDES a hostile ship, like a gas cloud, or asteroid, or something equally as useless for the purposes of this. Doesn't do you any good to get +2 targeting if if fills it up with gas clouds. Also, it didn't grant me and extra +2 targets.. Do you need to have your targeting skills maxed in order to take advantage of the +2? It doesn't say that at all. Another useless module, and I'm not even sure what it does: Auxiliary Power Cores, adds 10-15MW to your Power Core. What does this mean? Is it adding Powergrid? Cap? WHAT? Seems to be a pretty worthless amount to if it's in the tens of units, especially if it's to CAP capacity, or PG capacity
Verx Interis Amarr Aurora Security	Posted - 2007.12.13 23:19:00 - [80] Originally by: Nova Wildstar Auxiliary Power Cores, adds 10-15MW to your Power Core. What does this mean? Is it adding Powergrid? Cap? WHAT? They add a static number to your total powergrid. Useful on frigates where an RCU will only add about 3-5 PG. -----sig-starts-here------ Witty stuff goes here
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.13 23:27:00 - [81] Edited by: Goumindong on 13/12/2007 23:27:14 Originally by: Rawr Cristina Adaptive Nano Plating II More obselete than useless. Obseleted by the Best Named version of this module which is 25% better, or the Faction version which is 50% better (almost as good as EANM II) and still very cheap ANP IIs are as good as 'refuge' plates. In general too: Tech 2 modules being "just as good, but with worse cap/fitting" as the best named isnt a terrible situation because tech 2 modules are so much easier to aquire, you can just invent and build them, or purchase them easily in bulk packages. You cannot do this for named modudes since their supply is limited by drop rates as opposed to the easier production mechanics.
Ruhige Schmerz	Posted - 2007.12.14 02:09:00 - [82] FoF missiles, I read every post and don't think I saw these mentioned. They're totally worthless in most engagements, PvE or PvP, and in the very few engagements where they aren't their only value is measured in false hope that you're going to accomplish something. Or measured in frustration because by the time you've reloaded them into all your tubes, the jam is off and you're reloading again. I suppose if you were locked down by a bunch of little ewar frigs that couldn't possibly break your tank but weren't going to give up until they ran out of ammo, they might manage to pop a few.. maybe. If you were extremely lucky and your foes were extremely stupid.
Vagrant Storm Caldari Rulers Of Mankind Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.14 02:58:00 - [83] Edited by: Vagrant Storm on 14/12/2007 02:59:37 Edited by: Vagrant Storm on 14/12/2007 02:58:15 heh...had to read through this to make sure I wasn't using any thing on "the list". Personally i don't think any modules are useless. You can reprocess them all...or mission mining as I refer to it. Defenders are most definately useless and I expect some thing to be done with them eventually. Or perhaps they are in the game to give NPCs a fighting chance against a missle boat? I'd like to see them taken out and replaced with point defence modules and new EW loaded onto a missle that we can lace our bays with to counter them. Though this would be a nerf to missles...so some love would have to come with it. Or maybe not as some one using the point defense would be sacrificing their own dps aswell But as it stands...they could remove defender missles from the market and i doubt any one would notice for quite a while. I know I've never seen them in pvp...and I've never heard of any one using them in missions or ratting. The only time I hear any thing on them is people testing them out and then they complain. A caracal with a full load of asult missle launchers spewing defenders should be able to fly though a cloud of missles and not get a scratch...at the cost of absolutely no damage dealing what so ever and the first thing with a gun is going to kill it.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.12.14 07:36:00 - [84] ôDoesn't do you any good to get +2 targeting if if fills it up with gas clouds. Also, it didn't grant me and extra +2 targets.. Do you need to have your targeting skills maxed in order to take advantage of the +2? It doesn't say that at all.ö Have you used it recently? That was fixed months ago, unless the bug has came back this newest patch. Last time I used it I sometimes got gas clouds but only when 0km next to a gas cloud. But no tins asteroids or all the other stuff it used to lock. In PvP chanceÆs are there will not be any gas clouds. The +4 targets only works if you have the skills to target that many things. Its not +4 targets to you its +4 targets for the ship. If youÆre in a ship with a max of 2 target locks you want to fit an auto target to get up to 6 target locks. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.12.14 08:41:00 - [85] Originally by: Katrina Coreli A lot of micro mods apart from microwarp drives i.e micro smart bombs, micro capboosters etc etc Regen platings are **e 50mm and 100mm armor plates All i can think of for now Some micro mods are useful on ships with virtually no fitting (read as: Covops, Inties, the occasional T1 frigate). I kinda wish they'd bring back the BPOs for those. After all, a micro smartie was used to get an aggression timer on Steve (Cyvok's Avatar), so the mod is not entirely useless. Originally by:** Nova Wildstar Another useless module, and I'm not even sure what it does: Auxiliary Power Cores, adds 10-15MW to your Power Core. What does this mean? Is it adding Powergrid? Cap? WHAT? Seems to be a pretty worthless amount to if it's in the tens of units, especially if it's to CAP capacity, or PG capacity 10 PG on a Cruiser with base 500MW+: Useless 10 PG on a Frigate with base 40MW or less: Huge Best part is that 10 PG gets added before bonuses from Engineering skill, so it usually gets you 12.5. -------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth
Darth Nerf	Posted - 2007.12.14 10:09:00 - [86] Edited by: Darth Nerf on 14/12/2007 10:13:45 Originally by: Pottsey “Care to divulge that limited use? I'm open to suggestions for this mod other than reprocessing it.” I have a fun ship with a 14 second passive recharge. It’s not effective, its not better then other options but it sure is fun. Rarely flux modules are better then PDS. If you fit say 5 SPR’s then a 6th or 7th SPR might kill your cap to much. In this case your butter of with a 6 and 7th flux module over PDS, maybe. Personally I prefer the PDS but from a HP regen point of view the flux T2 is better. Do you actually passive shield tank Amarr BC/BS? I Can understand that 8 SPR's kill your cap when firing the lasers... So the Shield Flux has no other use than being 'fun'. It still is worthless. A PDS give slightly less shield/s and with bonuses to cap and grid to boot. Originally by: Pottsey The +4 targets only works if you have the skills to target that many things. Its not +4 targets to you its +4 targets for the ship. Isn't the T2 Auto Targeter +3 extra targets now?
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.12.14 10:21:00 - [87] Originally by: James Lyrus I'm sorry, you seem to be under the impression that that price is something other than an arbitrary value assessment by the people buying them. Or to set this in context, have a look at the situation where top named is T2 with better fittings. In every single case, the top named will be more expensive. And in all the cases where T2 is better than top named, and you're trading higher fittings, for 'more effectiveness' (e.g. shield boosters, guns) the T2 is more expensive. I hear people saying 'don't fit T2 web, fit fleeting' preety often on the forums. At any rate, T2 is generally a bit worse (fitting-wise) then top named for a lot of modules, but T2 turns out to be cheaper (since it can be produced, basically). See T2 SPRs with Beta SPRs (same effect), even T2 shield extenders compared to best named (where T2 is better at price of more fitting and higher sig radius). See HML II vs 'Arby' HMLs, RL II vs 'Arby' RL, Missile launcher II vs 'Arby', then top named guns, etc, etc, all offering slightly (very slightly) inferior performance to T2 at price of more SP requirement and higher fitting costs. Rifters!
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.12.14 12:40:00 - [88] öDo you actually passive shield tank Amarr BC/BS? So the Shield Flux has no other use than being 'fun'. It still is worthless.ö No I fly Gallente ships with railguns. So 6 to 7 SPRs kill my cap to much. Flux on the other hand gives me more HP regen then PDS modules while giving me enough cap to fire weapons. From a tanking point of view I am better of with flux modules so the module is not useless. As for the auto targeter it might have changed not looked at it closely recently. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Rawr Cristina Caldari Cult of Rawr	Posted - 2007.12.14 14:02:00 - [89] Originally by: Goumindong ANP IIs are as good as 'refuge' plates. So they are. They used to be only 12.5%, so were useless in comparison but I wasn't aware they'd been buffed. -----
gordon cain Minmatar x13	Posted - 2007.12.14 14:56:00 - [90] remote ecm burst - most useless module ingame. Gordon Cain Never argue with idiots, they will just drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience.

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