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Verx Interis Amarr Aurora Security	Posted - 2007.12.13 07:12:00 - [31] Originally by: Gallente Citizen2007041418 Originally by: Verx Interis You can lock up to 10 with skills, but when do you need more than 6 locked anyway? I've been going with 4 at a time for quite a while. And the extra +2 targets doesn't matter if you don't have the skills for them. I know that some members of well-known PvP alliances used to fit them on their Scorpions Hmm, don't have anything to say there. The fact is though, they fail at what they're supposed to do. They fail massively. Most people are fitting them for extra locks, not for the auto-targetting feature. "Hey look an asteroid.. It might be dangerous! Or he might be mining! Lock it!!!!!111" -----sig-starts-here------ Witty stuff goes here
Gallente Citizen2007041418	Posted - 2007.12.13 07:24:00 - [32] Edited by: Gallente Citizen2007041418 on 13/12/2007 07:23:47 Some COSMOS modules are useless, like Small 'Saddle' Capbooster. They are like T1 unnamed, but require pricey cosmos components to build.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.12.13 07:33:00 - [33] Edited by: Pottsey on 13/12/2007 07:35:20 ôWell besides missionwhoring, the +2 targets is kinda useless.ö Its +4 target locks with T2 and there are more mission runners then PvPerÆs so its not totally useless. If someone lowers your lock time to 30sec+ having two target locks means you can relock them in 2.5seconds instead of 30+. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Yakumo Smith Gallente When Darkness Falls	Posted - 2007.12.13 07:36:00 - [34] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Reinforced bulkheads I've used them successfully on my harbi to give myself a rediculous structure tank on it. DCII ftw I suppose this must be my sig. I'll do something cool with it eventually.
Karanth Gallente Eve's Brothers of Destiny Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2007.12.13 08:12:00 - [35] Originally by: Mr Friendly Originally by: Karanth Originally by: Lothros Andastar Originally by: Mithfindel Cap recharge mods have a stacking penalty, so if you are having already relays in the lows, then it's actually better to have a Medium Battery than a Cap Recharger on mids. methinks someone doesnt have a clue what they are on abaout sadly Say there is a ship with 1000 sec recharge, and your recharger is a 10% one. First one does 10% off of 1000, to 900. Then, second does 10% off of 900, or down to 810. Hmm, my maths says you got 10 less seconds from the second, when compared to the first. It is even more so, on the third and so on. So, artificial CCP stacking nerf, no, basic math nerf, yes. oh dear... err, that's still 10%... math much? What I'm saying is, that 10%, and 10%, the second 10% is less effective, because there is less to reduce. This shouldn't even be a point to discuss, considering that most people understand that reducing a number by a percentage multiple times means that each time you do it, you get less removed. So yes, it is a stacking penalty, in a roundabout way. All that's left... There is only one sig hijack that matters, the orginal and only member of the hijack squad. me. -Eris. ps Black russians are better then beer. Well, there's not many of us left! -Rauth
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.13 08:37:00 - [36] Originally by: Karanth Originally by: Mr Friendly Originally by: Karanth Originally by: Lothros Andastar Originally by: Mithfindel Cap recharge mods have a stacking penalty, so if you are having already relays in the lows, then it's actually better to have a Medium Battery than a Cap Recharger on mids. methinks someone doesnt have a clue what they are on abaout sadly Say there is a ship with 1000 sec recharge, and your recharger is a 10% one. First one does 10% off of 1000, to 900. Then, second does 10% off of 900, or down to 810. Hmm, my maths says you got 10 less seconds from the second, when compared to the first. It is even more so, on the third and so on. So, artificial CCP stacking nerf, no, basic math nerf, yes. oh dear... err, that's still 10%... math much? What I'm saying is, that 10%, and 10%, the second 10% is less effective, because there is less to reduce. This shouldn't even be a point to discuss, considering that most people understand that reducing a number by a percentage multiple times means that each time you do it, you get less removed. So yes, it is a stacking penalty, in a roundabout way. If the base time was used every time the effect would be an exponential increase per module, after yu fit 4 power relay IIs you would have 24x4 = 96% reduction in cap recharge, which is silly. As is it each one you fit increases your cap/sec recharge the way they say so its not stacking nerfed. --------------------------------- Oh noes!
Dober	Posted - 2007.12.13 08:42:00 - [37] Originally by: Verx Interis Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Rachel Vend Remote Sensor Dampeners, all forms. ECM Multispecs are much more useful and cheaper. Not true. What single module can, with 100% reliability, cut the range of a battleship's targeting by 40%? Certainly not an ECM. T2 Stasis Webifiers - Equal or worse than their T1 counterparts in every way. Very true. A fleeting web > t2 web. Less cap, less fitting, same speed reduction, probably cheaper (can't check right now). T2 warp disruptors at least have more range. t2 one is 3 times cheaper and pritty good
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.12.13 08:54:00 - [38] Edited by: Jurgen Cartis on 13/12/2007 08:55:57 Originally by: Karanth Originally by: Mr Friendly Originally by: Karanth Originally by: Lothros Andastar Originally by: Mithfindel Cap recharge mods have a stacking penalty, so if you are having already relays in the lows, then it's actually better to have a Medium Battery than a Cap Recharger on mids. methinks someone doesnt have a clue what they are on abaout sadly Say there is a ship with 1000 sec recharge, and your recharger is a 10% one. First one does 10% off of 1000, to 900. Then, second does 10% off of 900, or down to 810. Hmm, my maths says you got 10 less seconds from the second, when compared to the first. It is even more so, on the third and so on. So, artificial CCP stacking nerf, no, basic math nerf, yes. oh dear... err, that's still 10%... math much? What I'm saying is, that 10%, and 10%, the second 10% is less effective, because there is less to reduce. This shouldn't even be a point to discuss, considering that most people understand that reducing a number by a percentage multiple times means that each time you do it, you get less removed. So yes, it is a stacking penalty, in a roundabout way. They may appear stacking nerfed to how much they reduce your recharge time, but they still net you the same multiplier to your shield/second or cap/second recharge rate. Let's say you have 1000 cap, 1000 seconds recharge and perfectly average recharge at all times. Why? It makes for easy computations and it's 3 AM here. No Cap Rechargers: 1000/1000 = 1 Cap/Second 1 20% Recharger: 1000/ (1000 * 0.8) = 1.25 Cap/Second +0.25 Cap/Sec over 0 2 20% Rechargers: 1000/ (1000 * 0.8^2) = 1.563 Cap/Second = 1.25^2 Cap/Second +0.313 Cap/Sec over 1 Recharger 3 20% Rechargers: 1000/ (1000 * 0.8 ^ 3) = 1.953 Cap/Second = 1.25^3 Cap/Second +0.390 Cap/Sec over 2 Rechargers. etc. etc. etc. If anything, Cap and Shield Rechargers/Relays are anti-stacking nerfed. Exponential functions are wonderful things. As for my contribution to the actual thread, T2 Armor Plates. RT is lighter, cheaper, easier to fit and gives the same bonus. Regenerative Plating is almost universally inferior to EANMs, unless you're stacking a 4th or 5th EANM. 25% to all resists adds 33.3% effective Armor HP, a T2 Regen plate adds 15%. Before the Sensor Booster nerf I would have added Signal Amplifiers. I think they may still qualify, except for the T2 one which gives +1 lockable target. T2 Webs are equal to best named T1, but have worse fitting and cap use. They do have a huge advantage though: they cost about half as much as a Fleeting Web, and the cap use of a web is trivial (except maybe on frigs). -------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth
Kahrek Laume Gallente Mirage Industries EternalRising	Posted - 2007.12.13 09:01:00 - [39] Originally by: Karanth Originally by: Mr Friendly Originally by: Karanth Originally by: Lothros Andastar Originally by: Mithfindel Cap recharge mods have a stacking penalty, so if you are having already relays in the lows, then it's actually better to have a Medium Battery than a Cap Recharger on mids. methinks someone doesnt have a clue what they are on abaout sadly Say there is a ship with 1000 sec recharge, and your recharger is a 10% one. First one does 10% off of 1000, to 900. Then, second does 10% off of 900, or down to 810. Hmm, my maths says you got 10 less seconds from the second, when compared to the first. It is even more so, on the third and so on. So, artificial CCP stacking nerf, no, basic math nerf, yes. oh dear... err, that's still 10%... math much? What I'm saying is, that 10%, and 10%, the second 10% is less effective, because there is less to reduce. This shouldn't even be a point to discuss, considering that most people understand that reducing a number by a percentage multiple times means that each time you do it, you get less removed. So yes, it is a stacking penalty, in a roundabout way. Okay it increases your cap recharge rate by a certain percentage per module right? Yup it does good, now do the math the way it is supposed to be done, the actual time it takes your capacitor to recharge is not what is relavent here but the amount of cap / second at peak (Cap recharge is non linear in case you did not know). So each time you fit a cap charger your peak recharge increases by a certain % value and if you fit 4 cap charger the multipler is applied to the modified value of the previously enhanced cap recharge (Essentialy if you fit 4 15% cap rechargers your cap recharge would be increased by 15% 4 times that's base x 1.15 x 1.15 x 1.15 x 1.15 meaning there is effictively no penalty for putting on as many cap recharge modules as you can on a ship be it 1 or 10. If you want to work the actual numbers behind this load up EFT and try it you will see your peak recharge increases in a steady fashion with the addition of each capacitor recharge module (Cap chargers, PDU, CPR etc..etc..) it is not that you are reducing a number by a percentage a multitude of times but rather increasing it, giving you increasingly beneficial results with the addition of additional modules. Test example. Ship A: Cap 1000 Cap recharge 1000 seconds effective recharge rate 1 cap / second Add 10% cap recharger: Cap 1000 Cap recharge 900 seconds effective recharge rate 1.111 Add 10% cap recharger: Cap 1000 Cap recharge 810 seconds effective recharge rate 1.234 Add 10% cap recharger: Cap 1000 Cap recharge 729 seconds effective recharge rate 1.371 Add 10% cap recharger: Cap 1000 Cap recharge 656.1 seconds effective recharge rate 1.524 Of course i know cap recharge is not linear but the math holds true even on a curve, as you can see the pure cap recharge / second increase actualy goes up with each recharger added, sure the amount of seconds shaved off of the total cap recharge time decreases but the benefits actualy increase. Hope that helps demystify the mechanics of cap rechargers for you. Regards, Kahrek Laume.
Ari Chu Perkone	Posted - 2007.12.13 09:04:00 - [40] Originally by: Gallente Citizen2007041418 Edited by: Gallente Citizen2007041418 on 13/12/2007 07:23:47 Some COSMOS modules are useless, like Small 'Saddle' Capbooster. They are like T1 unnamed, but require pricey cosmos components to build. Actually, not quite true.... though I'm treading into an area I don't really know much about - I beleieve that having a higher Meta Level improves a modules usefullness for Invention. While you might not want to spend the isk to purchase the COSMOS capbooster just to use it in invention - if you came along a wreck in space and the wreck had the COSMOS version and the T1 version in it.. and you could only carry 1 of them - there would be an actual purpose to grab the COSMOS one. --- "The Galaxy is only as big as you make it." - presumably Eve Game Designers.
Ishan Mons	Posted - 2007.12.13 09:08:00 - [41] MATH FOR THE WIN!!! learn to multiply infact - recharge% gives better results than the exact same + base cap % (try fitting 3 CCCs Vs. 3 Memory cells if you don't believe me)

ISD Valorem Amarr ISD STAR	Posted - 2007.12.13 09:09:00 - [42] Moved from general Discussion to Ships and Modules. forum rules \| CAOD Rules \| [email protected] \| Our Website

Gallente Citizen2007041418	Posted - 2007.12.13 09:10:00 - [43] Originally by: Ari Chu if you came along a wreck in space and the wreck had the COSMOS version and the T1 version in it.. and you could only carry 1 of them - there would be an actual purpose to grab the COSMOS one. They do not drop from NPC's. They can only be built by players. But you're right, the higher metalevel is an advantage of such modules. The only advantage though.
Ari Chu Perkone	Posted - 2007.12.13 09:15:00 - [44] Originally by: Gallente Citizen2007041418 Originally by: Ari Chu if you came along a wreck in space and the wreck had the COSMOS version and the T1 version in it.. and you could only carry 1 of them - there would be an actual purpose to grab the COSMOS one. They do not drop from NPC's. They can only be built by players. But you're right, the higher metalevel is an advantage of such modules. The only advantage though. Who said NPC? A player could be carrying one (or, god forbid, actually fitting one) and get popped... --- "The Galaxy is only as big as you make it." - presumably Eve Game Designers.
Gallente Citizen2007041418	Posted - 2007.12.13 09:21:00 - [45] Originally by: Ari Chu Who said NPC? A player could be carrying one (or, god forbid, actually fitting one) and get popped... Why would a player carry one when it is the same as T1 unnamed but 1000 times more expencive? :)
Viscount Stoko	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:01:00 - [46] Target Painter II as the Tech I PWNAGE version has the same bonuses but only needs 2/3 of the fitting requirements.
Sharkk	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:13:00 - [47] Someone already said it but..... Flux coils are the most redundant mod in the game be it shield or capacitor heres a mod that boost's your recharge rate but then lowers your overall capacity there-by nerfing your recharge rate/????
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:16:00 - [48] Originally by: Verx Interis You can lock up to 10 with skills, but when do you need more than 6 locked anyway? I've been going with 4 at a time for quite a while. And the extra +2 targets doesn't matter if you don't have the skills for them. Logistics are a valid reason to want to be able to lock more targets.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:19:00 - [49] Originally by: Sharkk Someone already said it but..... Flux coils are the most redundant mod in the game be it shield or capacitor heres a mod that boost's your recharge rate but then lowers your overall capacity there-by nerfing your recharge rate/???? Incorrect. Cap Flux Coils help capitals move quicker accross the galaxy. Because they do not care about how much cap they have, but how quickly they get to 75%
Sharkk	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:26:00 - [50] SPR would be better in most cases right? unless you happen to be in a caldari dread ....so cap flux do have a single use? low slot fittings on caldari dreads for Sunday driving
Katrina Coreli The Scope	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:28:00 - [51] A lot of micro mods apart from microwarp drives i.e micro smart bombs, micro capboosters etc etc Regen platings are ****e 50mm and 100mm armor plates All i can think of for now ----------------- THE CAKE IS A LIE!
Ashaz Mindstar Technology Talon Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.13 12:45:00 - [52] Originally by: Gallente Citizen2007041418 Originally by: Ari Chu Who said NPC? A player could be carrying one (or, god forbid, actually fitting one) and get popped... Why would a player carry one when it is the same as T1 unnamed but 1000 times more expencive? :) cause he'd looted it from another players wreck....? ahem.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.13 12:53:00 - [53] T2 ewar is in all ways worse than top named T1. RSD IIs < Phased muon damps MUltispec IIs < hypnos multispecs TP II < PWNAGE painter TD II < Balmer TD Auto-targeters. Some of the shield resistance amplfiers might as well be. I cannot think of a single situation where I would use an explosive shield resistance amplifier - all the ships I might fit resistance amps on, are the ones short on CPU, and as a rule, on slots too. Oh, and dual 150mm rails, and dual 250mm rails. Just fail in so many ways. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Dheorl Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.13 12:55:00 - [54] Originally by: Katrina Coreli A lot of micro mods apart from microwarp drives i.e micro smart bombs, micro capboosters etc etc Regen platings are ****e 50mm and 100mm armor plates All i can think of for now Micro cap boosters can have a use on some setups... less so since inty changes but meh.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.12.13 13:14:00 - [55] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 13/12/2007 13:14:25 Originally by: Tarminic T2 Stasis Webifiers - Equal or worse than their T1 counterparts in every way. Incorrect. T2 web = 90% speed reduction for 1.2-1.5M (forgot, but very sure it's less then 2M) Fleeting web = 90% speed reduction for 6-7M (fitting is easier and slightly better cap use) I will always tell people to use T2 if they can fit it. Saving 5M is nothing to laugh at, and the cap difference doesn't even matter on a frig, not to mention anything bigger. After all, you do all have propulsion jamming IV, right? Originally by: Karanth The ECCM - Omni I is the most useless mod. Definitely useless. Originally by: dmosbarge1 Regenerative plating. Worthless compared to any sized plate. Definitely useless again. If nothing, EANM is always better for effective HP anyway if you're running a plated setup. Shield Flux Coils are also a terrible mod. TP drones, web drones and damp drones spring to mind: they've got a problem of being almost entirely useless to begin with (TP drones), and quite slow in addition to big stacking nerfs making them quite ineffective (damp drones, web drones). Defenders are just broken, they'd be OK if they worked and were sensible to use (so you could turn on your launcher loaded with defenders and let it do its job). Rifters!
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.12.13 13:15:00 - [56] Edited by: Pottsey on 13/12/2007 13:15:37 ö CPR would be better in most cases right?ö No as the idea is to get to 75% as fast as possible to jump. With cap flux one gang member energy transfers and you get to 75% very fast. With CPR it takes way longer in which time it might be to late or not as useful to jump. Even if your solo with flux you get to 75% faster then with CPR so you can jump more often and faster. A muti jump trip is a lot slower with CPRÆs. Thought it was 95% cap to jump? Or ist hat just to online modules? I went out my way to buy some T2 shield flux modules. So not 100% useless more like 99%. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Soros 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.12.13 13:18:00 - [57] Edited by: Soros on 13/12/2007 13:18:17 If you count ammo .. defenders do not do what it says on the packaging
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.12.13 13:21:00 - [58] Originally by: Soros Edited by: Soros on 13/12/2007 13:18:17 If you count ammo .. defenders do not do what it says on the packaging It's only because they're broken and poorly designed ;P I mean, as a concept, I'd love to be able to load defenders in any of my spare missile launchers of my Minmatar ships and set them to auto-fire on missiles going against me (or on missiles launched by a certain foe). I'd occasionally use them if that was the case and they'd be far from useless. As it is now, though: no Rifters!
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.12.13 13:50:00 - [59] Edited by: Qui Shon on 13/12/2007 13:52:55 As stated T2 AutoTargetters are not worthless. T1/Named sig amps are not worthless either, many Raven PvE builds have a spare lowslot, and can certainly make use of increased locking range. Cap fluxes are not only for jumping, many if not most perma XL-boosted missionships use them, because T2 flux gives more regen then PDSII's. TP drones can be used on torp ravens, since midslots are very tight if you want shield buffer and/or lots of ewar. I can imagine someone uses web drones on PvE long range turret ships? So, what do we have in this thread so far? Most Micro-mods 50 and 100 plates Regenerative plates. That's it?
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.12.13 13:59:00 - [60] With regards to the COSMOS modules. Most of the ones I have seen are T2 Attributes with best-named T1 fitting and skill req's. VERY useful on setups with tight fitting requirements. =============================================

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