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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Balor Haliquin
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.03.25 17:18:00 -
[721]
Okay so after doing some more math I think I have found out what the issue is. EFT seems to give the Abaddon and the other tier 3 battleships a few more EHP then they deserve. I'm not sure how they get to this number, or if I am missing another bonus to the health of a ship. So if I go by my math, the flagships have about 5%-10% more starting EHP on average. This is simply due to the higher resistance. Flagships do not have a higher total number of hit points compared to their stock ships.
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Kyra Felann
Gallente
Noctis Fleet Technologies
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Posted - 2009.03.25 19:13:00 -
[722]
I don't like the name, since a 'flagship' is basically a ship with an admiral on it. Any ship could be a flagship. It's a role, not a ship type. It'd be like naming a type of ship 'Fleet Scout' or 'Sniper' or 'Suicide-Ganker' or 'AFK Mission Runner'.
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hawtalt pr0nmistress
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Posted - 2009.03.25 21:53:00 -
[723]
 Originally by: Kyra Felann
It's a role, not a ship type. It'd be like naming a type of ship 'Fleet Scout' or 'Sniper' or 'Suicide-Ganker' or 'AFK Mission Runner'.
or command ship perhaps? oh wait...
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Balor Haliquin
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.03.26 04:49:00 -
[724]
The name for the class is, more then anything, simply a name at this point. I had considered calling them Heavy Command Ships but the name seemed drab and rather technical. I lacked some panache and punch. Considering the game, I'm not to sure this is a bad thing. But the game has enough HICs, HACs, and the like. Marauders and Black Ops ships have really cool sounding names for their classes, and I was trying to come up with something a bit along those lines. I understand the origin of the term flagship, it was simply an attemped to make the ship class sound cool and interesting. Call them Heavy Command Ships if you like, it does not change much other then the name of the class.
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Sokot
Gallente
Brute Force Algorithm
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Posted - 2009.03.26 08:30:00 -
[725]
If these ships are designed to be able to take on capital class ships, how about a bonus, possibly for the fleet, that increases missile damage along with explosion radius? This would effectively become a potent weapon against capitals without increasing damage versus smaller targets...
"He was quite mad and knew it very well, but being mad he did not care" |
Soratah
Amarr
The Aegis Militia
Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2009.03.26 09:39:00 -
[726]
Lot of thought in this and well formatted. What would be the point of Command ships if these ships were fielded?
Either Commandships will need to be re-designed or bonuses will need to be different to offer better support for certain aspects.
How about giving them a special module they can activate "Battlefield Command Modules" they operate like the tactical reconfiguration modules. Reduce BS speed to 0, make immune to EWAR, lock speed and amount bonus + damage bonus, rep bonus. Loss of tracking (working exactly like tactical reconfig modules.) Apart from the obvious directing the battle and locking and helping other ships in the combat it could have several specialised bonuses to respective command modules and fleet bonus provider (e.g percentage boost to whatever.)
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Ivan Zhuk
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Posted - 2009.03.26 11:25:00 -
[727]
Ok sorry i didnt read through all 25 pages.... I really do like these ideas however my one problem is the theater command ship only gets to use 2 gang modules at once? isn't this worse than its fleet command ship partner?
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Balor Haliquin
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.03.26 18:26:00 -
[728]
These ships are not designed to solo against capital ships. They have a heavy tank and are able to keep the fleet, taking on a capital ship, alive for a longer period of time. These ships are supposed to be used in a fleet where they can put the maximum bonuses behind them and their supporting fleet. Though they will more then likely fight against capital ships, they are not going to be exclusively fighting them. So they need to be able to deal with both Capitals and small cruiser gangs with some effectiveness. This is not to say that they will be victorious against a HAC gang, but they will be able to stand more of a chance then if they were specialized against one group.
I don't like the idea of specialty modules for specific ships. The concept seems a little backwards to me. If you are going to fly a command ship, why do you need a module that is critical to operation? Why not make it an integral part of the ship? I'm not saying this is a bad idea, I would just like the ships to give more options to pilots then "OMG you need this bit to be good n00bz". Also i think that that kind of module would only alienate the Command Ships even further from the Flagships.
The Command Ships, as I see it, will still be a very viable option for PvP. They are smaller, faster, cheaper, have great tanks, and they are no slouch on DPS. The question comes down to this in a PvP fleet battle. Its not some much if there will be Flagships and Command Ships on the field, but who is the fleet commander and who is just bait. The Command Ships are still going to be a good platform for Cruiser/HAC/Battlecruiser roaming gangs. After all you fleet is as fast as the slowest ship.
The reason the Theater Command Ships have one less active gang warfare link module is a balance issue. A person, can not remember who, pointed out that the Theater command ship was in effect using 4 modules at once, including its fleet bonus. He also noted the fact that the ships were almost identical in effects on a fleet if the only used 3 modules and no fleet bonus. So in order to prevent the Fleet Command Ships from becoming obsolete I reduced the effectiveness of the Theater Command Ship. The added benefit to the Theater Command Ship was it is now able to fit a full rack of weapons and the command links.
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Iexo Peoa
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Posted - 2009.03.27 06:23:00 -
[729]
Edited by: Iexo Peoa on 27/03/2009 06:24:03
Originally by: Balor Haliquin
In the greater sense, Flagships are designed to help bridge the gulf between the sub-capital ships and the capital ships.
Heh, while reading this, it kinda reminded me of(sounded exactly like) my argument for the implimentation of an Expanded Carrier Chain. 
All the same, you got my vote. Great idea, and would definately add some variety to combat both high-sec and low-sec, in offering a number of size-ranges available to battlefleets. Small battlefleets with command ships, large battlefleets with Flagships, and of course low-sec/0.0 battlefleets with their capital command ships. Awesomesauce in the making.
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Balor Haliquin
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.03.27 19:43:00 -
[730]
Thanks for the support. I have not heard of your idea I'll have to check it out.
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lech lizdian
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Posted - 2009.04.06 22:09:00 -
[731]
ok for the dude that said this ship has no purpose...
maybe you were correct before worm holes...
but now you are dead wrong!!!!!
mofoes i cant bring my titan into Worm hole space....
but i can bring in my BS's.... and the mini titan boost that these ships have is great for that purpose....
so now this ship has 3 great uses...
1. cheeper then a titan for those who cant afford one....
2. can be used in high sec (wars might just be fun again)
3. WH space!!!!! yay!
Please CCP make this ship.....
its made out of "winsauce"
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Brave SirRyan
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Posted - 2009.04.17 04:29:00 -
[732]
Edited by: Brave SirRyan on 17/04/2009 04:30:50
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Brave SirRyan
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Posted - 2009.04.17 04:30:00 -
[733]
now it is time for this
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Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2009.04.17 04:35:00 -
[734]
I think you need to update your original post to help reflect that these ships are useful in wormholed systems as well.
Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 6Apr09 |
Uglok
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Posted - 2009.04.17 08:00:00 -
[735]
While I like the idea of a flag ship, I disagree with their incarnation on this thread.
Currently it feels as if they're just upgraded versions of Command Ships, but why are they necessary? Command Ships already do a fine job, and these seem redundant. Perhaps if their bonuses could be more unique and not completely overwrite Command Ships, they'd be more acceptable.
Also, a random question. Why is the Abaddon losing 2% damage bonus per level? It currently has 5%, but your idea has 3%.
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Balor Haliquin
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.04.17 20:02:00 -
[736]
The Flagships are a bit more like a mix between the Command Ship and the Titans. Though they do have the command and control functions of the command ships they are significantly slower. They also can not fallow fast moving gangs very well. After all a gangs speed is determined by its slowest ship. These ships are more for gangs that can not be chased by the bigger capital ships and super capitals. Where the Command Ships bring speed and large tanks for their size. Flagships bring a the unique fleet bonus and the static hit points of a battleship.
The Abaddon was not the only ship to get that nerf. If you look at the other ships in the line you will see that a lot of them do less damage then their stock counter parts. The reason for this is that someone (I cant remember who at this point) pointed out that these ships would be able to out tank and have the same DPS as a Marauder. So in order to make them more tank and less gank, they got a damage reduction. I wanted to prevent the ships from becoming the uber pvp/pve solo omgwin machines. Note that they only get to have all of their bonus active if they are in a fleet and giving the fleet the boost.
Thanks for the heads up I will change the introduction post as soon as I run the new intro through a spelling checker.
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Balor Haliquin
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.04.21 03:42:00 -
[737]
All right the intro is updated. Thanks for pointing that out.
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Uglok
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Posted - 2009.04.21 06:54:00 -
[738]
Originally by: Balor Haliquin
Flagships
The concept of this ship class is to make a larger evolution of the command ship. Instead of simply creating larger ones, the people in the forum thread and I have blended the bonuses and stats to make the ships more command oriented then straight up combat. Possessing a less powerful version of the Titans fleet bonuses, and the ability to fit and use warfare links, allows medium to large fleets the support they need to fight hard targets or fly unsupported by capital ships. Flagships are heavily tanked battleships the sacrifice their firepower for added fleet effectiveness. They are not a slouch on damage but are less effective at the task then their base versions. The advantage these bring to the battle field is simple. Fleets operating in space that restricts the use of capital ships, such as cyno-jammed space or wormholes, would be made more survivable. The assaulting of towers in high sec would also be made far easier. These ships are limited in how many warfare links they can use. And their agility and speed in space is far worse then the current Command Ships. Thus they are more of geared for larger engagements rather then small roaming gangs.
Ship bonuses
Ships have a slightly reduced version of their base ships bonuses. More often then not itĘs a reduction to their damage output rather then tank. This is for balance as to prevent the ships from taking over the role of mission runner or make the tier 3 battleships completely obsolete. They also recive a fleet bonus that only comes into effect when they are in a fleet and they are the assigned bonus ship. Other then that some of the ships have been modified to fit in their design forms, Khanid ships are missile throwers instead of laser boats for example.
I've highlighted a few parts specifically to focus on. Lets begin.
First, you claim for them to be a larger evolution of the command ship, but they are less effective than their base versions.
Second, you claim that their reduced damage bonuses are in part to not wanting these to become the best mission running ship and preventing Tier 3 Battleships from becoming obsolete.
Lets go over some of the problems with these two statements.
First of all, Command Ships. Are they not superior in every way to their base ships? They can do more DPS, tank more damage, fly faster, and give more bonuses to their gang than their Tech 1 versions.
Second, all Tech 2 ships tend to be an increase over the basic design, allowing them to high specialize in something they originally were intended to be.
Third, all Tech 2 Battleships tend to be somewhat unpopular due to these deficiencies. While price tends to be a major factor, Marauders, which ideally should be the best "soloing" ship in the game, are instead rarely used by experienced players who prefer to fly the vastly superior Command Ship. Caldari especially prefer the Nighthawk over the Golem. While you do more DPS in the Golem, it is a ship that needs support or it isn't as effective, while a ship -designed- to -give- support is superior at soloing efficiency, such as the Nighthawk.
People want an upgraded Tier 3 Battleship, and this isn't going to give that. Battlecruiser class and below tend to have the best Tech II ships since they're direct upgrades, and can often do their jobs more efficiently than any Tech II Battleship. Ask yourself *why* people would ever bother spending the 1 billion ISK to purchase this ship, and why they would want to fly them over a Command Ship, or even a Marauder, which seems to be a vast improvement over these ships.
Especially for Gang Warfare, I would rather have a more mobile Command Ship buffing my group rather than a slow Flagship that would serve the same purpose, but be an easier target to destroy.
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Balor Haliquin
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.04.22 00:37:00 -
[739]
Tech 2 battleships are not the huge uber machines compared to the smaller ship classes due to one very important reason. It is very easy to make a T2 battleships way more combat effective if you just copy and past the abilities of the small ships to them. The advantage to dealing with smaller ships id they do not have a lot of HP to burn through. Battleships start with a rather large amount of HP and can very quickly make the ships have capital ship level HP. They also put out a large amount of damage relitive to their size. So to prevent the T2 ships from becoming solo machines, which CCP has said they are dead set against, you have to make the T2 ships only slightly better.
The reason the flagships are set up the way they are is to make them at once unique in their role and balanced in their abilities. They have to have a good tank or tank potential to ensure their survival. And they have to give the fleet something that the command ships don't. In that light they have a fleet bonus that is only shared by the Titans. From then on its ensuring that the ships do not trample over ships that are already in the game. The two that it has an immediate problem with are the Marauders and the Command Ships. The reason for Marauders is that it has to have a huge tank to survive PvP but cant out DPS the Marauders because that would render the Marauder class useless. Why bother with Marauder when you can have a more powerful and potent Flagship. To prevent this the Flagships have a reduced damage output. They still hit for a good amount but they are not going to out DPS Marauders and Battleships. Remember their first job is to survive and provide fleet bonuses. Everything els is a bonus to that. The Command Ships are a bit trickier to manage around. Both ships need to do the same thing but for different kinds of fleets. Command Ships are good tankers and have good close range combat capabilities. Granted there are exceptions to that rule but generaly they are not 75km or better shots. So the Flagships are potentialy much farther ranged then the Command Ships. The next part is tank, the command ships have awesome ability to active rep and keep the tank going against high DPS situations. But they lack the static HP to deal with DD and heavy fleet engagement. The Flagships mends this by having the ability to fit a huge buffer tank, or a good active tank. Flagships are, again, geared toward the larger fleet engagements. When it comes down to command bonuses is a little harder. The Fleet Command Ships can run 3 verses the Theater Command Ship's 2 links. However do not forget that the Theater Command Ships also get a fleet bonus.
These ships are not ment to be solo machines. If they are not in a fleet they should be rather easy pickings. They have a good punch but they are not the highest damaging battleships, nor should they be. Their job is to provide bonuses and survive. They can not depend on their small size to save them so they have to get it done through raw HP. Giving them better DPS would make them way too powerful for the Battlefield. |
Uglok
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Posted - 2009.04.22 05:30:00 -
[740]
One key factor you seem to be forgetting in their comparison to Marauders is the fact that Marauders are allowed to use 4 turrets/launchers which do the damage of 8, while having 3 extra high slots for utility modules.
While people would probably be quite annoyed with having to sacrifice one of their 8 high slots for utilities, the sheer fact that they have to have all 8 weapons to match the DPS of a Marauder is reason enough to give them the proper bonuses, and not make them weaker.
Look at it this way, no other ship in the game has a 3% bonus to damage. It's all 5% to my knowledge. People will not be fitting 8 weapons to ships like these, when the bonuses they provide from other ships for fleet engagements will outweigh their own damage. But that doesn't mean if they're in a position where they can serve as "DPS", they should be weaker than other ships.
Also the argument of "solo pwn mobiles" seems somewhat moot with the introduction of the Tech III Strategic Cruisers, which can already solo level 4 missions better than a Command Ship or Marauder. It's really scary to see this little Cruiser which can fly at 600 m/s to have a 1.6k tank.
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Dxella
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Posted - 2009.04.22 10:42:00 -
[741]
 Vey nice Idea! Luv it. Tho i will have some training to do before  !
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Raff Barloh
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Posted - 2009.04.22 12:23:00 -
[742]
I must say alot very very well ideas but tbh an [FLAGGSHIP] has to have ALOT more Shield/Armor than those which were postet at the 1st side - it should has the biggest Shield/Armor of all Battleclasships (even the Nightmare has more Shield than 9200 HP). So an [FLAGGSHIP] like Caldari should have like 15k or more Shield w/o Skills and the base resistanze would be (EM/Exp/Kin/Term) 25/62,5/55/40 (including an 5% Bonus Shieldresistenz Bonus per BS Level.
I like the Idea that they would have an Rolebonus to their Racebonis (webbing/neut/scram/ECM), u know but you guys should stop thinking that Flaggships should have Advantages to their Weaposystems like RoF or DMG Bonus) nvm but that stays on BS.
Also there should be a rule that only 1 of them can be in every Fleet and u must be set as Fleetbooster that Ganglinks take effect.  cry if u want but Flaggships (if they come along) will be very expensive and it¦s sth for real skilled Players. |
Luskaie
Gallente
defiant.
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Posted - 2009.04.22 12:46:00 -
[743]
/signed, 100% agree and support this, make it happen CCP :) |
Balor Haliquin
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.04.23 05:25:00 -
[744]
Edited by: Balor Haliquin on 23/04/2009 05:29:56
At this point I am seriously considering doing an HP boost to all of the ships. Mathmaticly they have the same total number or HP as their base ships and it seems rather silly to call them heavy tankers when they might in reality not be any better then their base ships. I'll have to see how it balances out so don't expect anything soon. Nothing major just a bit of a boost to all HP.
If you will notice that the ships that can use more then one command link (Theater Command Ship) may have the ability to fit a full rack of weapon systems, but they will be mixed type, as in turrets and missiles. That allows a pilot to commit some of the high slots to the needed job of warfare links. Also consider that I don't want the ships to become "You must fit this ship in this fasion or it is utter fail" ships. The ability of players to play around with the fitting and find a fit that they can fly to their own style is something that I really like in eve. Im not saying you point is not taken but I don't want to force pilots into a box with the promis of options and the confinement of reality.
The Strategic Cruisers aside, I still want to make sure that this ship is balanced against its piers. It has to play in the realm of Tech 2 ships and thus must meet the balance between itself and them. I understand that the Marauder has its on unique foibles and issues, but you must understand that one has to work around the current mechanics with the new mechanics.
I'm rather sure there is no way to prevent ships of the same class from joining the same fleet. Honestly the game takes care of the multiple stacked Flagship issue on its own. Consider that the bonuses do not stack, the system only takes the best of the bonuses and trickles them down. I'm not a fan of arbitrary limiters in games, and I see no reason to limit them in a fleet.
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Inquisitor Berthez
Make Love To War
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Posted - 2009.05.11 01:41:00 -
[745]
bump
So what's the status on this project? ccp picking this up already? I need something new to pimp in.
Pimp my NavPoc
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Balor Haliquin
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.05.11 21:19:00 -
[746]
I have been playing around with the idea of a small HP boost. Want to make their static HP a bit more for durability tanking. Right now I'm just playing around with some numbers to see what they get me. Unfortunately , i have to math out all the variations i come up with as to make sure they are all balanced. The ones I hate the most are the Caldari ships. I want to make sure they have great HP but not so that they can be passive tanked like no ones buisness. So that means trying to figure out what they would do for a passive tank if fully fitted out. Its going to take me a bit longer to work it all out. But expect around 1250 more HP spread unevenly on the Armor, Hull, and Shields.
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Hawk Firestorm
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Posted - 2009.05.12 02:36:00 -
[747]
I'd perhaps put this one in the Sub captital group I proposed in the Escort carrier thread maybe.
Demi capital if you like that uses many of the skills for Capital ships but bout half way.
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Lancard
Order of Anarchy
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Posted - 2009.05.12 07:06:00 -
[748]
I like the idea of Tii Tier 3 BS. Let's keep the idea developing.
The only feedback I can offer is make sure it's possible to passive armor tank the Tii Abbadon. I have only briefly scanned the posts made thus far so it's possible that this issue was already addressed.
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Balor Haliquin
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.05.13 06:38:00 -
[749]
The majority of the ships are very passive tankable. I have noted, however, that they could be better. I want them surviving the encounter a bit better then their base ships. So its to that direction that I'm trying to figure out how much to boost their HP. Its not going to be spectacular. 1250 HP spread not so evenly over the shields, armor, and hull.
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Korell Nova
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Posted - 2009.05.13 14:28:00 -
[750]
ok so we now have t3 why dont you take your idea and run with it using subsystems for differing bonuses and us having completely new skins for once not just rehashing/repainting old ones |
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