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Black Ops good on paper, a joke in reality?

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DuKai	Posted - 2008.05.12 12:53:00 - [91] I think the above post is actually what CCP was trying to think when they conceived the Blackops. As it stands now... the ship is a severe waste of the combat pilot that sits in it. Why risk a ship of this price in combat when it is little more capable than a battlecruiser in combat? The above would be a great "branch" skill for logistics and hauling pilots: perhaps a hybrid of those two skill streams can be used to solve the storage problems etc However, none of this will happen as they've already railroaded so many PVP pilots into this dead-end logistics (in the true sense of the word) ship.
Killerhound Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.05.12 13:22:00 - [92] Anybody found informations about what CCP is thinking of to change to get those ships more "usefull" or even "usefull" at all. Well just waiting until then to undock my "Widow" and to kick some pods. At the moment enemies are just laughing at you if you bring such a ship, or even worse your own corpmates in Battlecruiser pwn you faster then you can imagine.
LadyShu Federation of Synthetic Persons STYX.	Posted - 2008.05.13 13:34:00 - [93] i dont think any dev said anything about this Situation. I posted this topic here right after they were introduced on tq and i tried a panther after testing this ship for days on sisi. In the beginning the most people have seen this thread as a regular whine thread without even knowing anything about flying this ships. Good to see this change now since a few people tried this crap ships for tons of ISK. But i still think ccp will not change anything on this ships in "near future" but instead introduce new crap ships with tons of skill and isk requirements with some new add-on... gnah... its not that we demand solopwn mobils but we want todo something usefull with this ships. ... EveTUBE.COM - Your bandwidth will be owned sir.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.13 13:47:00 - [94] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 13/05/2008 13:50:24 As a black ops pilot, I must Congratulate CCP on providing my Redeemer with a excellent Partner to my cov ops hauler. My Cargo Expanded Redeemer is a excellent jumprive Blockade Runner Hauler and my Cov Ops Hauler, the Pilgrim, is fantastic in what it does in being able to warp around cloaked. I trust both these ships were tested repeatedly for real world practical usage and again, I thank CCP for the for the most ingenious part - Giving the Cargo Expanded Redeemer enough Cargo to fit 1.4km3 worth from the Cov Ops Hauler (pilgrim) and carry enough fuel to Portal the Cov Ops hauler (pilgrim) back in one go! Seriously, Black ops ships should be scapped since pvp today has obsoleted black ops compleatly. All you can do with black ops is get a black ops gang together, send a bait battleship with cyno to attack someone and then jump in. Then you relise you cannot portal in Hics and other ships so its a waste of time since the people you are laying a cyno trap for will nano away. What the black ops needs is the ability to portal any ship size smaller than battleship. And the anyship wanting to use the portal uses fuel from its own cargo and not the black ops. And the Redeemer needs enough fitting to fit a non-comedy setup -- Billion Isk Mission
Suitonia Gallente interimo	Posted - 2008.05.14 11:54:00 - [95] Black-Ops are fairly disappointing at the moment. If CCP want to make them work then they need to look at the following. 1. Covert Cynos in cyno jammed systems. - It's not like you can pratically siege towers with them. This is the biggest problem for me, as mentioned fuel costs are insane and the majority of controlled 0.0 is cyno jammed which means you have to spend more fuel jumping around to get to where you want to. (See Limited cargospace), this is also an annoyance when it comes to jumping things with you. Jump Range problems is also Evident with this. I think this would be the single, biggest change that would make Black-ops useful. 2. I'd look at giving the black ops a lower m3 fuel. How about "compressed Isotopes" which are 1/5th of the size (or whatever amount would make them balanced). This would increase the amount of fuel they could carry without having to worry about issues caused by just increasing the cargo bay. 3. Increased jump range could also be looked at. --- I've always wondered about those Vagabond pilots...
J909 KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.15 05:42:00 - [96] Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 13/05/2008 17:28:12 Edited by: Lord WarATron on 13/05/2008 13:50:24 As a black ops pilot, I must Congratulate CCP on providing my Redeemer with a excellent Partner to my cov ops hauler. My Cargo Expanded Redeemer is a excellent jumprive Blockade Runner Hauler and my Cov Ops Hauler, the Pilgrim, is fantastic in what it does in being able to warp around cloaked. I trust both these ships were tested repeatedly for real world practical usage and again, I thank CCP for the for the most ingenious part - Giving the Cargo Expanded Redeemer enough Cargo to fit 1.4km3 worth from the Cov Ops Hauler (pilgrim) and carry enough fuel to Portal the Cov Ops hauler (pilgrim) back in one go! Seriously, Black ops ships should be scapped since pvp today has obsoleted black ops compleatly. All you can do with black ops is get a black ops gang together, send a bait battleship with cyno to attack someone and then jump in. Then you relise you cannot portal in Hics and other ships so its a waste of time since the people you are laying a cyno trap for will nano away. What the black ops needs is the ability to portal any ship size smaller than battleship. And also have it so that anyship wanting to use the portal uses fuel from its own cargo and not the black ops. And the Redeemer needs enough fitting to fit a non-comedy setup LOL - that was good =) and yeh i hear ya on the comdey setups for these things, i spent about 1 bil on fittings on my Sin to even just be able to fill the slots and give it a half decent tank, there is no way im even undocking in that thing until it can fit a cov ops cloak. Best thing about the Sin is it looks nice when im sat in station spinning it round watching my skill points go up 1 at a time, is this really what CCP wanted out of this ship class ----------------------------------------------- Cash from Chaos
XXJackXX Caldari Eternity INC.	Posted - 2008.05.15 08:05:00 - [97] about black ops yes lots of problems due to their lack of cargo hold and job that can do.Jump portal needs loots of fuel to jump ships to long range you need to go around with your hauler alt with cargo ship full with fuel.due to lack op farco hold it's jump range is realy short.maybe reduction of fuel request for ly could be usefull.and more cargo for fuel to portal people.about the slots and grid it is no desing to be solo ship it desing to trap or support.
MacaMyHe	Posted - 2008.05.15 17:32:00 - [98] 1. let BO still use t2 cloak at max, but make it able to warp cloaked, leaving all it's penalties. low scanres and would save most of shipp classes from being ganked. 2. increase JR to be inline with titan's JR. (big papa escort?) 3. and surely reduce fuel cost, leave this to mathman's just little boost, which wont make them pwnmobile's as combat capacity still omfg crappy
Killerhound Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.05.17 22:22:00 - [99] Has anybody heard anything about the black ops from the devs? Just curious as my last official information was that they would be changed somehow. To be hones the only concern I had so far in empyrean age was if they'd ballance the 1bio Widow I have in my hangar in 0.0. I was hoping to undock maybe once in future... "Oh my great hider, relinquish from the dark and start looking for the light"
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.18 06:29:00 - [100] Originally by: Killerhound Has anybody heard anything about the black ops from the devs? Just curious as my last official information was that they would be changed somehow. To be hones the only concern I had so far in empyrean age was if they'd ballance the 1bio Widow I have in my hangar in 0.0. I was hoping to undock maybe once in future... "Oh my great hider, relinquish from the dark and start looking for the light" CCP's idea of balancing these is completely incongruous with what the literate player base thinks--they tentatively said a larger or seperate fuel bay may be a solution but the serious pilots know the issues that cripple these ships go beyond fuel bay to the more basic question of role. Two recons can kill a blackops right now with a fraction of the skills and resources. I can only speak for the redeemer but its issues are hardly unique. Lack of fitting, even without the bridge, capacitor that is on par with the tech one, nothing to remedy the penalty of fitting a cloak, questionable velocity bonus... They are and will be cloaked haulers barring some massive change. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
mamolian Eternity INC. Project Alice.	Posted - 2008.05.18 06:49:00 - [101] This ship class should be the means for empire based corps to raid deep into 0.0 in my opinion.. I'd love to see 15 man recon/stealthbomber gangs being bridged all the way from empire to the edge of 0.0 and have enough fuel to get home again.. as is right now to send a single recon 1.3 AU takes up enough fuel to fill 1/2 of my available cargo bay in the sin It needs to have a similar or greater range to what a carrier can manage. Preferably in a separate fuel bay. I'd also love to see this ship have the ability to cyno/jump/bridge to a cynojammed system. The covert ops cloak ability.. hmm I'm all for it! sure! but it may be a little overpowered? :) -----------
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.19 07:51:00 - [102] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 19/05/2008 07:51:48 Originally by: Erotic Irony Originally by: Killerhound Has anybody heard anything about the black ops from the devs? Just curious as my last official information was that they would be changed somehow. To be hones the only concern I had so far in empyrean age was if they'd ballance the 1bio Widow I have in my hangar in 0.0. I was hoping to undock maybe once in future... "Oh my great hider, relinquish from the dark and start looking for the light" CCP's idea of balancing these is completely incongruous with what the literate player base thinks--they tentatively said a larger or seperate fuel bay may be a solution but the serious pilots know the issues that cripple these ships go beyond fuel bay to the more basic question of role. Two recons can kill a blackops right now with a fraction of the skills and resources. I can only speak for the redeemer but its issues are hardly unique. Lack of fitting, even without the bridge, capacitor that is on par with the tech one, nothing to remedy the penalty of fitting a cloak, questionable velocity bonus... They are and will be cloaked haulers barring some massive change. What CCP need to do is tell us how they want Black ops to be used. Nobody knows its role and CCP has not communicated how they expect these ships to be used. A Sin and a Widow can actually be used to some extent, but a ship like a Redeemer cannot even fit a basic fitout let alone use one! The only clue is that the Redeemer has exactly enough cargo in a cargo expander fit to portal a cov ops hauler (pilgrim) someware and then to jump back. Even if they fixed fuel, the fact black ops cannot portal heavy interdictors or dictos makes the whole thing rather silly. -- Billion Isk Mission
mamolian Eternity INC. Project Alice.	Posted - 2008.05.19 10:34:00 - [103] Edited by: mamolian on 19/05/2008 10:34:25 Allowing them to portal hictors/dictors is a terrible idea tbh -----------
Matrixcvd Caldari Rionnag Alba	Posted - 2008.05.19 12:24:00 - [104] lets get going on this guys, i would finish skillin for it if there was some hope other than " when we released the Black Ops they came pre nerfed" well un nerf the damn things already, 10 recons 6LYs back and forth, warp cloaked so you could bridge them right into a camp, AMIRITE!!?!?!?!?!
GreatKroma	Posted - 2008.05.19 19:18:00 - [105] Bump so devs dont forget this.!
Skeltek Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.05.20 06:46:00 - [106] Edited by: Skeltek on 20/05/2008 06:48:50 Edited by: Skeltek on 20/05/2008 06:47:39 Usual a post like mine now DROWNS in the sheer flood of others. But I`d like to say that I like the Black Ops like they are now. Most people do not seem to realize, that the Black Ops ship tanks are made weaker than their t1 counterparts. In my opinion, if they would finaly HALVE the tank, people might start realizing, that these ships were never meant for regular combat. The ability of the Widow for example to jamm up to 80km range was always regarded by me as a last resort so it can defend itself at least a small bit in emergencies. for me the main functions are still: -stationary cloaking -ability to let the gang do 3 jumps using the portal instead of using Jumpgates(thus evading an enemy Scout, gang and backward scout or jumping into the system the enmy gang is located in, without their forward scout seeing you) -enough fuel to override two times 4 Jumpgates and back(saving the gang 16LY=aprox 16 jumpgates) -mobile resupply/repair/supportstation -high agility while flying cloaked(the only thing I might consider improving; maybe double the cloaked velocity bonus?) kind regards, Skeltek ps: this reminds me on the Logistic Cruiser whines back in the early days. people started using them lately, after they got additional bonuses on CPU and powergrid. In the end, they still use the same fitting I used before the bonuses were introduced. But of course, nowdays Titans are also regarded TOTALY USELESS by everybody since the Doomsday was nerfed.
DuKai	Posted - 2008.05.20 08:18:00 - [107] If these ships were never supposed to be combat ships... ...Why do these ships require heavily skilled COMBAT pilots to fly them? If the above post is correct... Please base these ship's graphics and stats upon haulers - and make hauler/merchant/logistics as the primary skilltree.
RoCkEt X Caldari The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.05.20 12:00:00 - [108] it is impossible to pin a blackops down when its not in 0.0.... so my widow jumps thru a gate and theres a camp. 1 - allign to the next gate but dont hit warp 2 - as soon as ship decloaks from gate, hit the cloak. 3 - ship speeds up to 75% in 4-5 seconds while in cloak. 4 - uncloak, instantly hit warp. only chance enemy has is if they manage to bump/decloak you in the 4-5 seconds it takes to get up to speed. As for uses i agree. i use my widow for camping freighters. its perfect... the scout comes through, cant tell i'm there because i am cloaked, freighter jumps in, wont log under cloak because he dosent know i am there, freighter uncloaks, i uncloak, online tank and sensor booster, lock in approx 4 seconds. freighter dies 5mins later. i warp out, alt jumps thru and collects phat loots. BLACKOPS CAMP: sit in 0.0/lowsec w/ blackops gang cloaked on a gate, enemy scout comes through, cant find you, enemies jump in, you face*****before they know what hit them. its not the intended use of blackops... but its a use nonetheless.
William Alex Viscosity space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2008.05.20 13:47:00 - [109] Edited by: William Alex on 20/05/2008 13:47:01 I envision a setup that involves something like this [Redeemer, Sniper] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II Sensor Booster II Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Improved Cloaking Device II [empty high slot] You can basically spread a few of these around a gate and unclock -> snipe if they send a tackler to you the guys far from you will kill it. If you're in danger cloak again.
Skeltek Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.05.21 00:33:00 - [110] Originally by: DuKai If these ships were never supposed to be combat ships... ...Why do these ships require heavily skilled COMBAT pilots to fly them? If the above post is correct... Please base these ship's graphics and stats upon haulers - and make hauler/merchant/logistics as the primary skilltree. What kind of COMBAT skills are needed to fly one except for BS lvl5? Its just Logistic/Carrier skills other than that. Besides, BS5 is no COMBAT skill. Btw, if you find the stats to be too high for a Logistic ship, why dont you buy one and do some PvP with it? Btw, if logistic ships are just in the same category like haulers in your eyes, you might as well suggest to downgrade the stats of Dreadnoughs and Interdictors to be more in line with Battelcruisers and Condors, so that they can actualy just do that and only that, what they were supposed to be able of.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.21 01:34:00 - [111] Originally by: William Alex Edited by: William Alex on 20/05/2008 13:47:01 I envision a setup that involves something like this [Redeemer, Sniper] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II Sensor Booster II Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Improved Cloaking Device II [empty high slot] You can basically spread a few of these around a gate and unclock -> snipe if they send a tackler to you the guys far from you will kill it. If you're in danger cloak again. holy **** this is a terrible setup 4 sensor boosters? No MWD? No plate? DC? just use an apoc with a cloak, it would fail and cost less ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Vas Doppleganger	Posted - 2008.05.21 17:03:00 - [112] Originally by: Erotic Irony Originally by: William Alex Edited by: William Alex on 20/05/2008 13:47:01 I envision a setup that involves something like this [Redeemer, Sniper] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II Sensor Booster II Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Improved Cloaking Device II [empty high slot] You can basically spread a few of these around a gate and unclock -> snipe if they send a tackler to you the guys far from you will kill it. If you're in danger cloak again. holy **** this is a terrible setup 4 sensor boosters? No MWD? No plate? DC? just use an apoc with a cloak, it would fail and cost less Why would anyone put a tank on a sniper fit? Your tank is range or in this cloak and be ready to jump out. The idea of have several sniper black-ops setup for popping in on a camp and sniping a few ships can really mess with a camp. Have a recon cyno you in off grid and a cov op set up a mini-warp to get you in range is an awesome idea. While you are sniping you can align to the recon. Warp out and cloak up until the next cyno is ready.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.21 18:29:00 - [113] Originally by: Vas Doppleganger Why would anyone put a tank on a sniper fit? because your ship is worth nearly 8-10 battleships and is ininsurable not to mention its several magnitudes worse than an apoc? show me a killmail using this pr0 fit ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
William Alex Viscosity space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2008.05.21 18:58:00 - [114] Originally by: Erotic Irony Originally by: Vas Doppleganger Why would anyone put a tank on a sniper fit? because your ship is worth nearly 8-10 battleships and is ininsurable not to mention its several magnitudes worse than an apoc? show me a killmail using this pr0 fit No need to resort to name calling.. I don't think that I'd personally tank it in THAT setup (200km sniper) but You have a point on the cost. As far as that's concerned though if you can't afford to fly one then it should be a non-issue.
Ashteron'n'KA ARCA CORP CORPVS DELICTI	Posted - 2008.05.21 23:58:00 - [115] What I wonder the most about black ops is not the timer but why the radius for jumping cant be say 10-15k from the ship so the gang can sit in the departure system cloaked - at 2500 radius around the portal when its opened - the ships have to sit so close they are out of cloak when running in a group operation - an increase in the overall timer would be good but an increase in the radius of jumpable craft would be a godsend.
Khan Soriano Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.05.22 11:23:00 - [116] So... now that we got about 10,000 different ideas on how to boost and create a role for Black Ops (suprisingly most of them are very good/interesting and usually not overpowered), I think we all would like to hear some comments from CPP about what is going on and when its going to happen. Maybe a short Devblog is in order?
Mrski Okupator The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.05.22 11:32:00 - [117] Originally by: Vas Doppleganger Originally by: Erotic Irony Originally by: William Alex Edited by: William Alex on 20/05/2008 13:47:01 I envision a setup that involves something like this [Redeemer, Sniper] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II Sensor Booster II Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Improved Cloaking Device II [empty high slot] You can basically spread a few of these around a gate and unclock -> snipe if they send a tackler to you the guys far from you will kill it. If you're in danger cloak again. holy **** this is a terrible setup 4 sensor boosters? No MWD? No plate? DC? just use an apoc with a cloak, it would fail and cost less Why would anyone put a tank on a sniper fit? Your tank is range or in this cloak and be ready to jump out. The idea of have several sniper black-ops setup for popping in on a camp and sniping a few ships can really mess with a camp. Have a recon cyno you in off grid and a cov op set up a mini-warp to get you in range is an awesome idea. While you are sniping you can align to the recon. Warp out and cloak up until the next cyno is ready. If you would stop playing EVE only in your mind, you would see how this 'fitting' and 'tactic' spell epic fail. ___
Minny	Posted - 2008.05.23 19:19:00 - [118] Anyone tested smartboms on bo's? Do you get the 30s delay or can you active smarts after you uncloak?
Missuri	Posted - 2008.06.02 13:41:00 - [119] You get a 30s delay...
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2008.06.02 16:03:00 - [120] panther is excellent for bumping carriers - better than the machariel -.- - putting the gist back into logistics

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