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Elderberry Whine
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Posted - 2008.08.24 19:32:00 -
[151]
FACE IT! Any ship that uses the "Improved Cloaking Device" is, and will continue to be, an expensive, useless joke... Look how many times they buffed the bombers.
No amount of buff will ever make these ships worthwhile because fundamentally, without a switch to true stealth (i.e. cloaked warp) they are too weak to survive.
Icing on the cake is that they pre-nerfed their supposed "roles" into oblivion.
Originally by: LadyShu I skilled towards blackops right after they were announced by ccp (also cloak 5 as it was a rumour that it would be required for Black Ops *sigh*)
The role of this ship for clandestine operations behind enemy lines sounded perfect to me and my playstyle.
I jumped into a panther when they were available on sisi and tried some fittings and tested the ship in general especially the jump drive stuff, i made suggestions in the gamedev forum and discussed with other possible blackop pilots, and in my opinion ccp failed again with a ship for a given role.
Tons of testers mentioned that the jumpdrive fueluse is a joke... nothing happened.
I got a pretty expensive panther on sisi today and really nothing changed :(
- 4 ly jumprange may be enough on the paper... it should be enough to bypass some gatecamps etc, but the system layout of the most systems doesnt allow big jumps, and if so it needs like what? 800+ isotopes?! if you have enough fuel with you for 2 4ly jumps you cant carry much capboosters and very little ammo.
- The Jumpbridge is a joke... you cant jump many recons, even if everyone brings in there own fuel, the jumpbridge only holds a few seconds and you really need to work with cans.
- The Slot and Grid...
Well you have 8 high slots. I tried (at least on the panther) 800er artillerys, 650er etc. doesnt really happen which ACs you fit (dont even think about fitting 1400ers artis...) you get troubles with at least 2 highslots... you need 5 guns, 1 cloak, 1x bridge generator.. impossible if you want a decent tank (if not fitted for speed)...
This ship (panther) actually is a limited phoon which can move when cloaked, thats it. And since you cant warp cloaked everyone sees you coming.
I dont demand a solo pwn mobil (the dps isnt high enough on this ship for this either...) but for the price of this ship, the very high skill requirements (i guess you can easy go for caps after this ^^) and the limited use its just a waste of isk.
My suggestions would be:
- more cargospace (more fuel?)
or
- possibility of warp cloaked (make cov op cloak available to black ops its atm a bs sized recon after all...)
or
- let them jump 8ly instead 4ly, then people could live with the limitations.
I cant see a future for Black Ops if the stay like they are :/ The idea was pretty good and the solo combat functionality is great in blackops, but it really lacks some bonuses for its intended role.
sorry for my poor english
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.08.24 20:50:00 -
[152]
Just please fix blackops. I dont know what you should do with them, but useless ships. Enough said.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Cailais
Amarr VITOC
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Posted - 2008.08.25 00:55:00 -
[153]
Considering the cost of the Black Ops BS you'd be stark raving mad to put in the line of fire. Its jump portal capability is ok'ish - we actually used on TQ to move a recon / sb and cov ops, but then hilariously enough we had to fly the recon back to get more fuel, to jump the B Ops out.
It was simply quicker, easier and less costly to move the covert ships through the gates.
Plus the B Ops pilot was flapping about hanging around in his expensive ship.
iirc the devs have said these ships came out 'pre nerfed', I think 'unuseable' might have been a better description in this case.
C.
Originally by: Tarminic Your continued whining is somewhat diminished by your continued willingness to give your money to CCP.
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Sral TBear
Mark Of Chaos
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Posted - 2008.08.25 04:02:00 -
[154]
Just do it like the other "secret" flyoung pixels.
1 Logistic black ops (long jump range 6 ly would be enough)
Bonusses towards fuel, portal / cyno operation etc (large cargo or fuel bay)
1 combat black ops (short jump range keep it 4 LY
Bonusses towards combat modules (nu fuel bay, keep it as they are now short range combat ships) Cant fit jump portal no bonus to cyno if fittet
This way you need a pair to be 100% effective
Give the black ops its brother like the rest have, 1 logistic black ops and 1 combat (with some limitations)
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Githzheri
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Posted - 2008.08.30 12:37:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Ramius Decimus Edited by: Ramius Decimus on 06/07/2008 07:42:36 My god, does no one read the ship's description? Black Ops aren't designed for combat. Why would they be if there are already viable combat battleships available?
Originally by: Widow Description Role: Black Ops
Black Ops battleships are designed for infiltration and espionage behind enemy lines. With the use of a short-range jump drive and a portal generator, they are capable of making a special type of jump portal usable only by covert ops vessels. This enables them to stealthily plant reconnaissance and espionage forces in enemy territory. For the final word in clandestine maneuvers, look no further.
That's right, it's primary role is espionage. For those unfamiliar with that term, it means spying. Gathering information. This ship is pretty good for that role, although has fuel capacity restrictions and the shitty fact you can't warp while cloaked with it make a slightly more risky ship to fly (considering the pricetag), however is ideal for team functions. If you can bypass gates you surely know are camped with a tight inty screen (which could no doubt bump a cov ops frig), than it serves it's purpose of getting comrades in to nose around.
Black Ops battleships serve a purpose, however you need to be real flexible in it's design to make it effective in that role. One way or another, it's a support ship (not a frontliner). It's concept is tailored to the bigger picture.
Likewise, there's no way I could deny it needs a little work. As long as we don't give up on it, CCP should make improvements on it (like cov ops cloak). We just gotta keep pushing. Afterall, the customer is always right...
The biggest problem I have in what you and alot of people are saying and the way the black ops are desiged, is this. You talk about how they are designed to get past gate camps ect, however you have to get a ship past that gate camp in order to allow the black ops to jump bridge past it. That to me is beyond pointless. Why have a ship that can jump but require a cyno field to jump to.
If you are facing a good solid gate camp as a cov ops or recon ship, you still have a good chance at getting caught and poped. So then you have no way past that gate camp unless you have another ship around with a cyno generator on it. Remove the need for a cyno field to lock on to in order to jump, and I'd be alot happier with the ship. Currently, its useless.
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Lopin Acheteur
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.08.30 13:38:00 -
[156]
It's a fine fine line between useless and overpowered when it comes to ships that can use cloaks unfortunately. The ship was never a good idea to introduce as there is no role for it to fit in. Either it is useless or overpowered, I can't think of anyway to make it balanced. (cov ops cloak would be hugely imbalanced, as cov-ops ships are not supposed to be able to do good DPS).
Fuel usage is about the only thing you could look at without making them really overpowered, getting around using less wouldn't be so bad, provided you could still only go out with a handful of max range jumps of fuel onboard (3-4).
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Amy Wang
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Posted - 2008.08.30 16:17:00 -
[157]
how to make black ops worthwhile:
- allow covert cynos to be established in cyno jammed systems
- reduce covert jump bridge fuel consumption by 80-90% (or give black ops a separate fuel bay for isotopes roughly 5-10 times the size of its current cargo bay
- increase black ops jump distance and covert jump bridge operational distance by 50-100% (for a range of 6 to 8 ly with jump cal lvl 4)
- remove sig resolution penalty from fitting cloak (dont allow covert ops cloak tho)
- convert agility/speed bonus of sin/panther to something more useful
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.31 10:36:00 -
[158]
widow load fof slowboat to falcon uncloack turn on fof. Laught :P
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Albaluna74
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Posted - 2008.09.01 10:21:00 -
[159]
I'd like to propose a simple and easy way to boost BO and SB.
Cloaking devices: Normal T1&T2 cloak: add a targeting range æmalusÆ and adjust scan res æmalusÆ to be inline with WCS (T1 & T2).
Covertop cloak: as it is now
Ships: BO and SB no penality to fit normal cloak (no targeting delay/scan res penality/targetting range penality), no covertop cloak, no warp cloaked. Recons & covertop: covertop cloak (no malus and ability to warp cloaked) All the other ships: can fit normal cloak, but they suffer full penalties due to the fact that they arent designed to be cloakable.
In this way i can see a small reason to fly a BO over a normal BS.
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Dirtee Girl
Omega Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.09.02 09:17:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl widow load fof slowboat to falcon uncloack turn on fof. Laught :P
falcon warps out because you forgot scramble get laughed at :p |
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Evelgrivion
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.09.02 09:47:00 -
[161]
The panther would be great if it had a 2000 meter fuel bay and an 8 light year jump range. Just my opinion. |
cianide pro
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Posted - 2008.09.03 06:01:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Dirtee Girl
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl widow load fof slowboat to falcon uncloack turn on fof. Laught :P
falcon warps out because you forgot scramble get laughed at :p
Even if you got a scramble, due the locktime penalty from the cloak and because it's a bs the falcon pilot can make a coffee and then warp off before you have a lock on it.
This fact is one of the mayor problems I see, the scan resolution penalty from cloak.
Then another point that I see as ridiculous is the 30 seconds before you can cloak again, this should be changed as you fly a 700 mill ship with lower stats as the t1 variant so its should be possible to hide again when ever you want.
Fuel use, fuel bay and range is the third point where ccp should be looking at to adjust.
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EmperorPirk
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Posted - 2008.09.03 22:10:00 -
[163]
what if we removed some of the high slots and/or weapon slots and added more to mids and lows, then added massive Ewar bonuses to each ship and something or other. making sure that you and your recon pilots stay alive long enough to tell the tale.
give Black Ops thier Racial recon bonuses, but even better and stronger ones. the stealh bombers can deal out the DPS for you.
it's just an idea thou. might be good, might be bad. will need some tinkering anyways.
Pirk
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Car Wars
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.09.03 22:43:00 -
[164]
Originally by: EmperorPirk what if we removed some of the high slots and/or weapon slots and added more to mids and lows, then added massive Ewar bonuses to each ship and something or other. making sure that you and your recon pilots stay alive long enough to tell the tale.
give Black Ops thier Racial recon bonuses, but even better and stronger ones. the stealh bombers can deal out the DPS for you.
it's just an idea thou. might be good, might be bad. will need some tinkering anyways.
Pirk
basically make them big recons with added firepower. Only the widow is inline with this. Agility boost for gallente? come on, which dev on drugs came up with that?
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Vigaz
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Posted - 2008.09.04 10:37:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Car Wars
basically make them big recons with added firepower. Only the widow is inline with this. Agility boost for gallente? come on, which dev on drugs came up with that?
Domi has drone bonus per Gallente BS level Scorpion has ecm bonus (strenght and range) per caldari BS level.
SIN has drone bonus per gallente BS level and agility bonus per BO level (I agree, not really usefull bonus)
Widow has ROF bonus per caldari BS level (Is it a Raven? no!) and ONLY ECM strengh bonus per BO level (where is range bonus of the tier1?)
BO skill is rank 14, if u dont have BO @ lvl5 scorpion is a better jammer ship than Widow.
Scorpion is alrdy a ewar ship but without DPS, Domi has alrdy DPS but no Ewar capabilities, if all BO should be big recons, I think they should have the BO bonus to compensate their differences.
I suggest to switch bonus for Widow: ecm (but also range!!!!) from caldari BS lvl and ROF from BO.
Sin should change BO bonus from agility to Gallente ewar, it's sounds fair to me, the same for Amarr and Minmitar.
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Car Wars
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.09.04 11:12:00 -
[166]
dude...your face
anyways, dont think the range bonus is that big an issue for the widow if you want to solo, you need to be close anyways. For gang support a falcon would be better.
But yeah, better bonusses and a fuel bay would help this ship. Futher there is not 0.0 entry point where it has the range to jump over the low-sec to 0.0 gap. Would be nice to be able to jump behind a camp to attack from behind.
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Etienne Merten
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Posted - 2008.09.07 07:50:00 -
[167]
So here we are...months later and after a content upgrade, with a whole class of new ships worthless hangar decorations, and we have yet to hear a single peep from the Devs on fixing it? Or even, why they won't?
What the heck is going on? Please, PLEASE! Fix the Black Ops and do it soon! |
EntroX
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.09.08 08:42:00 -
[168]
Edited by: EntroX on 08/09/2008 08:42:52
Originally by: Etienne Merten So here we are...months later and after a content upgrade, with a whole class of new ships worthless hangar decorations, and we have yet to hear a single peep from the Devs on fixing it? Or even, why they won't?
What the heck is going on? Please, PLEASE! Fix the Black Ops and do it soon!
Maybe you want to take a look at this: Linkage
If the link doesn't take you to the right spot (for some odd reason it wont work on FF3) scroll down until the 5th post.
Also, don't forget to notice the fact that it was posted almost 2 months ago
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cianide pro
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Posted - 2008.09.09 05:37:00 -
[169]
Originally by: EntroX Edited by: EntroX on 08/09/2008 08:42:52
Originally by: Etienne Merten So here we are...months later and after a content upgrade, with a whole class of new ships worthless hangar decorations, and we have yet to hear a single peep from the Devs on fixing it? Or even, why they won't?
What the heck is going on? Please, PLEASE! Fix the Black Ops and do it soon!
Maybe you want to take a look at this: Linkage
If the link doesn't take you to the right spot (for some odd reason it wont work on FF3) scroll down until the 5th post.
Also, don't forget to notice the fact that it was posted almost 2 months ago
The fuel/cargo space is just one of the points but no reaction on the ohters.
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Etienne Merten
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Posted - 2008.10.04 07:32:00 -
[170]
Almost two months ago (now three) and still no changes, and not even comments on the Covert Ops Cloak or the scan res issue. My widow is still a useless hangar decoration that I can't sell and have absolutely no reason to take out of the hangar.
Depressing to say the least. |
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Dirtee Girl
Omega Enterprises 0mega Factor
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Posted - 2008.10.04 23:34:00 -
[171]
Edited by: Dirtee Girl on 04/10/2008 23:52:29 Edited by: Dirtee Girl on 04/10/2008 23:34:49
0004 Black Ops Improvements
Noah (CCP) indicated that CCP was aware that battleships with jumpdrives would become the ultimate ship, and to this end Black Ops ships were pre-nerfed. why introduce them period unless you had a clear vision of how it could be applied
Andrew (CSM Jade Constantine) noted that the range of the drive and the presence of cynojammers made the jumpdrive capability virtually useless. Another problem is the limited amount of fuel that can be carried.
Bane (CSM Bane Glorioius) added to this that due to the fuel taking up large amounts of cargo space, loot from successful operations often cannot be hauled back to friendly territory.
Noah (CCP) commented that a Fuel Bay can be added, so that fuel no longer takes up cargo space, or that specialized haulers could perhaps be used to haul the loot back or bring in supplies. CCP will also look at the issue with cynojammers. Jump range might be looked into but is of a lower concern, otherwise Black Ops ships might become too competitive with capital ships.
so to recap ccp would like a t2 battleship to remain a poor second cousin to it's t-1 couterpart .
im sorry but if this is supposed to be a utility vessel then why is it armed ?
if it's a combat ship why would someone pay 8x the money for a t-2 battle ship with half the combat potential ?
also how exactly do black ops become competitive with capital ships? can we shoot pos's with them ? can they anhilate station services in record time ? do they have some insane spider tanking and fighter drone wielding ability no one has yet discovered ? can they tank lots of smaller ships while dishing out huge dps ?
if anything this ship could lure pilot away from capitals to use their skills in a more productive way than just typical cap blobs . but to do that they need teeth or something truly unique the jump bridging has to be unlimited by ship type unless it's larger than a bs it also has to be cap based and not fuel based so if you want to bridge twenty ships it's either going to take alot of time or a pure cap rep guardian supporting it .
now it has potential to be great ship lets be honest you can put a battleship in any system within jump range at a moments notice that battle ship can immediatly warp to target or warp to safe and cloak and wait for a target . the problems is once combat occurs this ship will fall apart .
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TZeer
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.05 05:06:00 -
[172]
The black ops should be quite easy to boost...
- Give the ship a seperate fuelbay
- Take away the scan res penalty they get for fitting a cloak
- Small increase in their jumprange 2 ly to 2,5 or 3 ly
And finally let it be possible to put up a covert cyno in cynojammed systems.
Another thing, taking away highslots would be a big nono. They already give subpar damage.
The widow is probarbly the only BO that is ok in it`s current state.
The others should maybe get some of the bonuses from their recons carried over to them.
Sin could either get the damp bonus or the scram range bonus.
Panther could get web bonus
And Redeemer could either get a NOS amount, NOS range or a tracking disruptor bonus, think one of the NOS bonuses would be best.
But I dont know what other people would like to have on their races BO.
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Skeltek
Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Ev0ke
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Posted - 2008.10.05 15:34:00 -
[173]
Edited by: Skeltek on 05/10/2008 15:35:27 A Black Ops is no fighting ship as the thread opener assumed(too expensive for that anyway). Like everyone said about the Titans, that Clonevatbay and Jumpbridge suck and the only great thing about them is the Doomsday Device for remote-igniting, the Black Ops Jump Portal ability will get to be usefull one day.
With Titans everyone also demanded a HP and insane closerange fighting increase when it got introduced. The Ship was a joke, since it was too expensive and would instantly die when utilized in close combat fighting with the main fleet.
The Black Ops has more fuel than for just 2 jumps(cargo expanders) and even without, it is ideal, to stay at a POS and bring a flock of 10 Stealthbombers+Recons to the other side of the gate(just outside of Jumpgate Grid) and back, ready to do 56k raw damage on a fleet you are just to jump on and bubble.
But I guess people that claim that a single one or two Stealthbombers just suck, will never understand the principle of stacking areal damage against large numbers(16m ISK for a small mini DD isnt that expensive either). The only problem is it doesnt pay off to let 8 people switch from BS to Manticores if the participating Fleetnumbers are too small(you just reduce your regular firepower too much).
Just my thoughts here, never had enough Bomberpilots in my Corp to try it out yet anyway.
regards, Skel
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.10.05 16:15:00 -
[174]
Originally by: TZeer
And finally let it be possible to put up a covert cyno in cynojammed systems.
I'm hoping you're including 'highsec' in 'cynojammed systems'. That would be quite handy too. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
Devian 666
Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.06 03:26:00 -
[175]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Originally by: TZeer
And finally let it be possible to put up a covert cyno in cynojammed systems.
I'm hoping you're including 'highsec' in 'cynojammed systems'. That would be quite handy too.
That's a completely ridiculous idea with no purpose.
http://obeythekitten.com/ |
ollobrains2
Gallente New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2008.10.06 06:55:00 -
[176]
black ops are only useful in gangs and specific roles of 10 or more ships. EOS simple as that.
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Dead Soldier
Most Wanted INC
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Posted - 2008.10.06 11:03:00 -
[177]
Edited by: Dead Soldier on 06/10/2008 11:03:00
Originally by: Devian 666
Originally by: James Lyrus
Originally by: TZeer
And finally let it be possible to put up a covert cyno in cynojammed systems.
I'm hoping you're including 'highsec' in 'cynojammed systems'. That would be quite handy too.
That's a completely ridiculous idea with no purpose.
It has if you want to avoid pirate gate camps.
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Tirgal
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Posted - 2008.10.06 21:39:00 -
[178]
Edited by: Tirgal on 06/10/2008 21:40:57 Yea, was looking for a new ship to get into. i love BS's and I have a corpmate that pilots a Buzzard and i love the fact that they can warp cloaked and can be super sneaky, after readin some stuff about Black Ops i was twitching in anticipation for one, being able to sneak around behind the bad peoples lines. opening jump bridges to get in more buddies to help poke people. after looking at them all most all of the reasons for wanting to fly one were boned from the start. Cant warp cloaked ( now honestly.... how long is a uncloked BS with inferior damage ganna last behind lines?) Cant warp in decent ships to help, far as i can tell they can only warp in Covert Op frigs? (not sure if this is true or not), cant be fit to take a half way decent hit. and to top it all off its biggest draw for me was the jump portal gen. and it cant even do that decently.....
Wow greatest waste of server space I have ever seen. Imo they need to do a big overhaul of these or replace them with a new T2 BS class.
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Waxau
Mortis Angelus The Church.
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Posted - 2008.10.09 11:09:00 -
[179]
CCP - Appreciate the fuel bay possibly being added to Black Ops. But please, dont take that as the fix. Its merely one step along a several step path. A fuel bay isnt going to make these ships useful on its own. They need some of the suggestions given here. And thats me in a 'balance' eye, rather than a 'boost me boost me!' way.
A pirate buddy of mine brought a Sin to the fight the other day. And Teamspeak was filled with laughter. And his reply was 'What? I dont have a Domi anymore...' A fuel bay will not add anything of true value. It'll only make a crappy class 'slightly' more epeen friendly. It'll add nothing to the big picture of Eve. Please note the things we've all stated in this thread. For Eve's sake
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rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.13 03:15:00 -
[180]
Edited by: rgreat on 13/10/2008 03:24:43 Up.
Black Ops must use Covert Ops Cloaking Device! Black Ops must use Covert Ops Cloaking Device! Black Ops must use Covert Ops Cloaking Device! Black Ops must use Covert Ops Cloaking Device! Black Ops must use Covert Ops Cloaking Device! Black Ops must use Covert Ops Cloaking Device! Black Ops must use Covert Ops Cloaking Device!
As is Black Ops is worse if compared to a simple t1 battleship because problems with fittings. Not to mention it cost 10 times more. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
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