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Black Ops good on paper, a joke in reality?

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LadyShu Federation of Synthetic Persons STYX.	Posted - 2007.12.14 23:17:00 - [1] I skilled towards blackops right after they were announced by ccp (also cloak 5 as it was a rumour that it would be required for Black Ops sigh) The role of this ship for clandestine operations behind enemy lines sounded perfect to me and my playstyle. I jumped into a panther when they were available on sisi and tried some fittings and tested the ship in general especially the jump drive stuff, i made suggestions in the gamedev forum and discussed with other possible blackop pilots, and in my opinion ccp failed again with a ship for a given role. Tons of testers mentioned that the jumpdrive fueluse is a joke... nothing happened. I got a pretty expensive panther on sisi today and really nothing changed :( - 4 ly jumprange may be enough on the paper... it should be enough to bypass some gatecamps etc, but the system layout of the most systems doesnt allow big jumps, and if so it needs like what? 800+ isotopes?! if you have enough fuel with you for 2 4ly jumps you cant carry much capboosters and very little ammo. - The Jumpbridge is a joke... you cant jump many recons, even if everyone brings in there own fuel, the jumpbridge only holds a few seconds and you really need to work with cans. - The Slot and Grid... Well you have 8 high slots. I tried (at least on the panther) 800er artillerys, 650er etc. doesnt really happen which ACs you fit (dont even think about fitting 1400ers artis...) you get troubles with at least 2 highslots... you need 5 guns, 1 cloak, 1x bridge generator.. impossible if you want a decent tank (if not fitted for speed)... This ship (panther) actually is a limited phoon which can move when cloaked, thats it. And since you cant warp cloaked everyone sees you coming. I dont demand a solo pwn mobil (the dps isnt high enough on this ship for this either...) but for the price of this ship, the very high skill requirements (i guess you can easy go for caps after this ^^) and the limited use its just a waste of isk. My suggestions would be: - more cargospace (more fuel?) or - possibility of warp cloaked (make cov op cloak available to black ops its atm a bs sized recon after all...) or - let them jump 8ly instead 4ly, then people could live with the limitations. I cant see a future for Black Ops if the stay like they are :/ The idea was pretty good and the solo combat functionality is great in blackops, but it really lacks some bonuses for its intended role. sorry for my poor english ... EveTUBE.COM - Your bandwidth will be owned sir.
Mrsticks Minmatar RNCGM Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.15 00:11:00 - [2] This is why in a Different post I Requested to allow Blockade runners the Ability to jump With Covert ops. Whis would give you the Ability to carry Fuel and ammo for the team, And if you have a Brasent pilot Could Contribute a little to Combat with its Gun/Missle(Minmatar) CCP - The Industrial players would like to play and be Usefull to NAMIT!1!!! Long Live TEXAS! Texans join the Texas channel in game plz.
achoura	Posted - 2007.12.15 00:47:00 - [3] Well they stated the jump capabilities are supposed to be a "massive resource drain" a while back. Total would probably have been a better choice of word and currently (i could be wrong) the general effort is in fixing up bug and glitches > holiday drinking > "wtf is black ops?" *The EVE servers and their patches*
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.15 01:10:00 - [4] Edited by: Tovarishch on 15/12/2007 01:10:30 I'm going to give CCP the benefit of the doubt and assume that these ships entered the game pre-nerfed. However, seeing how fairly useless they are right now... combined with the fact that they show up in local (see this thread)... makes them a major disappointment. My crusade for faster missiles.
Eka Maladay	Posted - 2007.12.17 07:20:00 - [5] Originally by: Mrsticks This is why in a Different post I Requested to allow Blockade runners the Ability to jump With Covert ops. Whis would give you the Ability to carry Fuel and ammo for the team, And if you have a Brasent pilot Could Contribute a little to Combat with its Gun/Missle(Minmatar) CCP - The Industrial players would like to play and be Usefull to NAMIT!1!!! I like this idea.
Kel Zon	Posted - 2007.12.17 09:32:00 - [6] Edited by: Kel Zon on 17/12/2007 09:33:15 Edited by: Kel Zon on 17/12/2007 09:32:42 Not sure why they thought everyone would jump for joy to spend 1-3 months training to fly a Battleship with BC stats. Right now they gave us a Combat Recon (no CoC) with Force Recon stats. Thier offence bonuses make it seem like CCP expected people to put them in front line combat. Only the super rich or crazy would currently take on anything more dangerous than a couple T2 Cruisers in these things. If you really want to make them sneaky and fulfull the role YOU gave them they NEED Covert Ops Cloak.
Waccamaw	Posted - 2007.12.17 10:03:00 - [7] Edited by: Waccamaw on 17/12/2007 10:04:32 Look at the sails in Jita: panther: sold 1 on market: 20 (sucks most and I have a panther for sale) redeemer sold 5 on market: 15 (sucks too) sin: sold 7 on market: 23 (ok, but poor stats for a new ship, which is supposed to be wanted by many ppl) widow: sold 12 on market 23 (ok, could be better) This is causing many inventors and producers a lot of stress and unhappness. There will be no mery X-mas for them right now in Eve. With the given skill requirements not everybody could test these ships. So we had to trust in CCPs ability to create a good ship. Hearing now again, blackops suck and seeing prices on the market, which undercut the cost of ivnetion and production, makes me unhappy. Any idea is welcome. The idea with the blockade runenr sounds good.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.12.17 10:11:00 - [8] How to fix BlackOps: allow them to use COC2s and remove all locking penalties and scan res penalties from using the cloak. Problem solved. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.17 10:46:00 - [9] Originally by: Bellum Eternus How to fix BlackOps: allow them to use COC2s and remove all locking penalties and scan res penalties from using the cloak. Problem solved. No, allow the use of CoC 2's, but the locking delay penalty should stay... Would be a tad too much if it did. The speed while cloaked bonus should then change to reduction to locking delay after decloaking that goes to 100%(?), 50%(?) - I'll let the devs ballance that- at lvl5. There's no scanres penalty on CoC2's.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.12.17 11:04:00 - [10] 5 guns.... check less hp... check ok what is the point of these? if a typhoon can kill one what is the point. Official fanboy of jenny< pink supporter! looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.17 12:06:00 - [11] Originally by: MotherMoon 5 guns.... check less hp... check ok what is the point of these? if a typhoon can kill one what is the point. The redeemer looks sexy, which is probably the only reason I'll be getting one.
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.17 12:15:00 - [12] How bad whould it be to just give them the cov ops cloak? I see no reason why this would bring fourth balance issues. Cov ops frigate: scout Cov ops crusier: ewar, support Cov ops battleship: dps bringer Right now they are gloryfied stealth bombers. It's great being Amarr isn't it. Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr!
Will Stronghold Firing Squad	Posted - 2007.12.17 13:08:00 - [13] Stealth Bomber is currently deadlier then the Black-Ops. SB has really small signature, moves many times faster and gets major damage bonuses. Also costs like 100 times less :)
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2007.12.17 16:19:00 - [14] Originally by: Dristra How bad whould it be to just give them the cov ops cloak? I see no reason why this would bring fourth balance issues. Cov ops frigate: scout Cov ops crusier: ewar, support Cov ops battleship: dps bringer Right now they are gloryfied stealth bombers. I agree - why the Black Ops comes pre-nerfed and cant warp while cloaked is astounding: its really not worth its massive price tag, or the intensive skill training required. A great idea, just poorly implemented. C. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
Relyen Caldari Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.12.17 17:08:00 - [15] Originally by: Cailais I agree - why the Black Ops comes pre-nerfed and cant warp while cloaked is astounding: its really not worth its massive price tag, or the intensive skill training required. A great idea, just poorly implemented.[/quote Technically pre-nerfed is a good thing. Cause everyone is happy when they get buffed. But if they come overpowered and get post-nerfed, everyone throws a fit :P So, I have no doubt in time they'll buff it some :)
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.17 17:46:00 - [16] Originally by: Waccamaw Edited by: Waccamaw on 17/12/2007 10:14:47 Look at the sails in Jita: panther: sold 1 on market: 20 redeemer sold 5 on market: 15 sin: sold 7 on market: 23 widow: sold 12 on market 23 This is causing many inventors and producers a lot of stress and unhappness. With the given skill requirements not everybody could test these ships. So we had to trust in CCPs ability to create a good and wanted ship. Hearing now again, blackops suck and seeing prices on the market, which undercut the cost of invention and production, makes me unhappy. Any idea is welcome. The idea with the blockade runenr sounds good. Better stats for these ships are also welcome. Come on, they cost a lot of iskis! The argument: buff the ships as I have done a bad investment and I am losing isk building them is a bit weak. A lot of people has joined the BS invention bandwagons thinking they would be the first to build one and sell with to a huge overhead. The net result is that the market is oversaturated from day one, while the prospective buyers are still training for the ships. So the sellers don't sell and the prices are in vertical fall. Why I should buy a ship that some day ago was at 2 billions and today I have seen sold at 650 millions when I don't have jet the skills. Maybe I will buy one of the T2 BS when they reach 500 millions or if the price start to climb. About the OP post and subsequents: I really hope that CCP will wait at least some month before changing the T2 BS. They are too recent and we still have to see the full potential of those ships. If in 2-3 months they are still consideredd too weak it will be the time to see what to change, not before.
Muskogee Caldari nicomedes inc.	Posted - 2007.12.17 18:56:00 - [17] Edited by: Muskogee on 17/12/2007 18:56:30 @ Venkul Mul You missed the whole point. Do you really think CCP created a new ship to have only 1 in case of the Panthers sold? These ships are no titans, just t2 BS. They should be more mass compatible. Many Carrier pilots should be very close to fly a black ops. They simply do not want these ships, because they have currently no use for them. The prices are already a desaster for most producers. For example: Somebody, who invented with a 1,8 decryptor has a ME -4 BPC and built costs of appr. 650 mil. (at current jita prices) for a panther.
Khan Soriano Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2007.12.18 10:14:00 - [18] To the OP: How on earth did you find Black Ops Ships 'good on paper'?? The only good thing about them (and I mean whole class) is 4 med slot Geddon, THATS IT!! They are designed so badly that my eyes want to bleed, no strong points, no uses or roles (if you call jumpin 3-4 recons to next system a role then you are a ******), no NOTHING... FAILURE ALL THE WAY. Sad thing about it is that, CCP doesn't like being told what to do and is even more unhappy about admitting a mistake (remember how 'ECM' wasn't overpowered and 'being looked at' for about a 1.5 year but on the other hand was banned from Alliance Tournament that took place during that time?). Thats why if you are counting on some fast change for Black Ops, you are going to be really disappointed. ----- Arbitrator - Life & Death
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:40:00 - [19] Originally by: Khan Soriano To the OP: How on earth did you find Black Ops Ships 'good on paper'?? The only good thing about them (and I mean whole class) is 4 med slot Geddon, THATS IT!! They are designed so badly that my eyes want to bleed, no strong points, no uses or roles (if you call jumpin 3-4 recons to next system a role then you are a ******), no NOTHING... FAILURE ALL THE WAY. Sad thing about it is that, CCP doesn't like being told what to do and is even more unhappy about admitting a mistake (remember how 'ECM' wasn't overpowered and 'being looked at' for about a 1.5 year but on the other hand was banned from Alliance Tournament that took place during that time?). Thats why if you are counting on some fast change for Black Ops, you are going to be really disappointed. Actually some clueless people say "omghax @ black ops, can jump SB's into enemy fleet and pop frigs!!111, Stealth bombers a goooood!" and I just sort of want to die when I read it. And the people that say ccp will buff it: you are wrong, ccp is like the snail of buffing, but a real hawk at nerfing, afraid they will be forgotten as some legacy of trinity. It's great being Amarr isn't it. Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr!
Amarr Holymight deii feram Aegis Militia	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:42:00 - [20] A cov-ops ship that doesn't have cov-ops abilities seems like a major fail. I like the blockade runner idea.
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:54:00 - [21] Originally by: Amarr Holymight A cov-ops ship that doesn't have cov-ops abilities seems like a major fail. I like the blockade runner idea. Sure, cram any feature into the black ops, anything to make it viable, the redeemer looks sexy and I need a reason to train for it, currently its just meh, and I really don't want to dedicate my training to something that gives that little bang for the buck. Cov ops cloak would save it really, cov ops cloak with no calibration time would be beyond the sex though :P It's great being Amarr isn't it. Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr!
Little Wabbit	Posted - 2007.12.18 19:30:00 - [22] Edited by: Little Wabbit on 18/12/2007 19:31:29 how about changing the bonus of the ships: instead of bonuses to large projectile weapons give em a bonus to medium ones would fix all the problems (well, exept for the jumprange)
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Deathwatch Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.18 22:29:00 - [23] well from what i've read, i think i have found several possible fixes to the Black Ops, Reguarding the Jump Drives, Covert Cloaking devices (how we could possibly get them fitted/allowed), and the cargo. All can be found here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=663604&page=1 Reguards SoulOfAnnihilation D3ATHWATCH INC. American Timezone PvP Director "åill D3ATH Do Us Parå"
Hami Sa	Posted - 2007.12.18 23:04:00 - [24] Originally by: Little Wabbit Edited by: Little Wabbit on 18/12/2007 19:31:29 how about changing the bonus of the ships: instead of bonuses to large projectile weapons give em a bonus to medium ones would fix all the problems (well, exept for the jumprange) ...
Brother Welcome	Posted - 2008.02.06 19:20:00 - [25] Originally by: LadyShu I skilled towards blackops right after they were announced by ccp (also cloak 5 as it was a rumour that it would be required for Black Ops sigh) The role of this ship for clandestine operations behind enemy lines sounded perfect to me and my playstyle. Like many of the suggestions in this thread, but I think we need to be clear on purpose. The purpose of black ops is to cause trouble behind the lines. They need to be fighting ships. They additionally have the job of making a hole. Helping other ships in to do other things. What black ops are not about is recon. They are elite heavy strikers and wall breachers, not scouting units. For that reason I sign to longer jump range, lower fuel costs, and covert ops cloak use.
Shamsah Malik Minmatar	Posted - 2008.02.06 20:38:00 - [26] Or give them the ability to jumpbridge any ship that has a hull size of Frigate, Destroyer, or Cruiser. That would make them worth the price tag.
Julius Romanus Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.02.06 20:42:00 - [27] It doesnt help that at least the blackops i've looked at seem very cpu limited, making it very hard to even fit an improved cloak :\ Add to that the lack of range, inability to jump an appropriate number of recon's, and you've got a class that seems pointless to train towards. 4 mids geddon is sweet and all, but a 4mid geddon that needs all faction gear to even think of fitting a decent cloak doesnt work for me.
Lone Gunman	Posted - 2008.02.06 21:59:00 - [28] None of the Covert OPÆs ships or any ship for that matter have even close to 10000tf CPU to natively use the Covert OPÆs Cloak. CCP just gives a ôRole Bonusö of 96% to 100% reduction in Covert OPÆs Cloak CPU usage per skill level in order to be able to use them.
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.02.07 04:35:00 - [29] Blackops need a special cargo bay added to them that can only be loaded with fuel. This would go a long way to solving the issues with the jump portal generator and jump fuel amounts.
Kil'Roy Minmatar	Posted - 2008.02.07 06:18:00 - [30] I don't know about you, but I don't set my CovOps up with a tank... I don't set my Recon up with a tank... Why would you set up a Black Ops up with a tank..? I don't, and can fit for some nice dps. Some say that it has stats like a BC, yes it does. And with the right fitting, it will fly like one, with BS damage. You may laugh, but I say don't blame CCP if you can't think outside the box. This was never meant to be ship for the masses. It needs some tweaking, but if CCP isn't careful, it would be the ultimate gank machine, and I think they know it. That's my .25 isk.
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.07 06:43:00 - [31] I was testing it with a corpmate, and for it to have any mobility (I mean jumping into a target area, and jumping back out) it needs to be packed with jump fuel, which doesn't allow for any room for any ammunition or any thing else. also fitting guns and a tank is almost impossible, something that can be accomplished easily on the 1 version of the ship. For starters I think that they should have a separate fuel bay, that can hold enough fuel at least to make 1 full-range jump with minimal skills. They also need some fitting help, you need to be able to fit guns and tank at the same time A bigger eve Annndd..Player Factions
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.07 07:39:00 - [32] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 07/02/2008 07:43:39 deleted
Pakokkie Caldari Under Heavy Fire	Posted - 2008.02.07 17:32:00 - [33] I am flying a black ops and it is much fun. You just need a partner with a covert cyno field. That way you can make use of the widow as it is. On the other hand I think the resistance of shields on this ship are too low. Lets hope ccp wakes up and makes some adjustments to make it a more versatile ship.
adriaans Amarr Advanced Capital Ship Designs Hephaestus Rising	Posted - 2008.02.08 14:00:00 - [34] i thought they were good until i found that they could not warp cloaked... -sig- Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr! (Or make Amarr the only race able to deal EM damage from turrets).
fireraven The Singularity Amalgamation Pure.	Posted - 2008.02.09 07:33:00 - [35] Edited by: fireraven on 09/02/2008 07:33:48 black ops ships are fine expt for 2 things if ccp fixed this it would be a feildable 400m isk ship and balanced not a own all ride. this coming form somone that actualy flies one and still uses it for pvp. #1 remove scan res penelty or add a skill to help with it (no covert op clock that would make em wayyyy over powered lol) #2 add a fuel bay (add a fuel bay to the ship that can hold isotopes only they did it for stront they can do it for these not a 10km3 bay but at least a 2-3km3 bay as of right now you cant jump anything via jump bridge worth a snot and jump the black ops caz of the fuel shortage you can bring haulers behind a covert fleet but that would cinda defeat the whole reason lol.) Now the black ops can be a deep strike weapon by it self but we all know what happen's when you bring 6-7 battle ships w/o support they get riped up. These are easy fixes ccp can do while maintaining balance and making the ship fleet worthy. Probly even increasing the value and you would defenatly see more in fleet fights being a carrier pilot since forever i was more then happy to get and use one on the live sever rather then lug around the carrier lol. SOME MUST BE TOLD OTHERS MUST BE SHOWN
Brother Welcome	Posted - 2008.02.09 10:03:00 - [36] Originally by: Kil'Roy Edited by: Kil''Roy on 07/02/2008 09:37:00 Decided not to be part of a thread of those who seem to be looking for the next "Gank Mobile" For my part, I'm after a way to play Eve other than lagfests and nanoes. At present the only ships that can do roaming gangage are lights. Or if you are in a fleet then drones and fighters ftw while we paying humans wait for our modules to activate. As a BS lover I feel like the fat kid in the shoolyard 'x up nanoes, dictors, intys, covops..., no Brother Welcome, we don't want any BS' Black Ops won't match the equivalent BS 1:1, and they cost a lot more. On the other hand, they are a BS with mobility and the chance to move in dangerous territory without being a gank magnet. Add to that a potential strategic role. So I'm glad you decided to be part of this thread, so I could rebut the inevitable rhetoric about Black Ops fanciers wanting something imba. TYVM. :)
Aceformat Caldari Advanced Response Division G Thanks Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.09 11:59:00 - [37] After 3 months of skilling and alot of mining to build it, my stary eyes filled with hope and happiness were soon dulled with the reality of what a pathetic ship my Widow was. Covert ops cloak ... nope Enough cargo for fuel, ammo, ect ... nope Enough CPU/PG to fit it half decent ... nope Chances of killing a T1 battleship 1v1 ... none existent Being able to jump bridge your guys with the fuel you have ... not a chance Why I worked so hard to skill for this ship I have no idea, bog standard resists, less hp than a T1 battleship, less high slots for dps than most T1 battleships, and the recharge rate on the shields is absolutely atrocious. What was the pride and joy when I first climbed in it, now sits in my hangar, I'm hoping Marauders are not as useless as this thing. Ok, so enough whining on my part, what can be done, I'm guessing since this is CCP we'll find out in 3 years. I honestly wouldn't know where to begin. Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do.
steini PURE Legion Pure.	Posted - 2008.02.14 17:23:00 - [38] Originally by: Aceformat Covert ops cloak ... nope Enough cargo for fuel, ammo, ect ... nope Enough CPU/PG to fit it half decent ... nope Chances of killing a T1 battleship 1v1 ... none existent Being able to jump bridge your guys with the fuel you have ... not a chance signed........plz fix the black ops
Inanara	Posted - 2008.02.15 08:18:00 - [39] I was wondering why I'd seen so little on these ships being discussed. Since they appear to suck I know now why no one is talking about them cries
HolIy smoke	Posted - 2008.02.15 10:28:00 - [40] as a black op's pilot for the large portion of what has been said I simply dont agree. What is wrong with black ops simply is that people expectations are way to high. It is after all, a battle ship.....with a view to logistics. Why on earth would it then be able to beat another battleship 1v1....when it is ment to be sneaky and logisticy. On the fuel issue.....for the portal...again its a battle ship.....think a little about its size vs the size of a recon...and realistically...the fuel amount it uses is correct. As is the fuel it needs to jump....which is right for battleship vs what a carrier uses for the same distance of jump. This is not a titan, and imho was never intended to operate as one. If you want to bridge unlimited fleets with a logistics ship that can do it all...get a titan.. Black ops is the much much much cheaper alternative. just compare the prices and the sizes...and be realistic.... As for usage...understanding now what it is....you might then move onto the thoughts that having to now plan specifically for its use to get fuel to the right places etc actually isnt to bad. After all...youve saved what 30 bil or so on buying a titan...so whats a sneaky can drop a day or two before the op. All im saying is be realistic about this....the black ops is not nerfed.....it is a battleship sized logistics ship...able to with planning and execution....add huge advantages to a covert gang. I detect though that most are not liking hte planning part. and thus see it as nerfed. How i challenge you, can it be realistic to expect a battleship to jump portal a whole fleet there and back and still jump itself and then be able perform admirably on the combat field......
Attilah	Posted - 2008.02.15 11:20:00 - [41] Quote: able to with planning and execution....add huge advantages to a covert gang. I would love to know what those might be
HolIy smoke	Posted - 2008.02.15 16:14:00 - [42] Originally by: Attilah Quote: able to with planning and execution....add huge advantages to a covert gang. I would love to know what those might be using the black ops as a portable jump bridge for covert ships for example....to shorcut loops etc. pre planning could involve dropping gsc's with fuel at set ss's on the route. This is easier than setting up pos, claiming sov and getting jump portals setup i thought. sure has a few more disadvantages....but for a similar effect why not put the work into it. Maybe i just see the black ops as the portal and think along the lines of you need to keep fueling a portal, it takes work and plannig to get the network up etc.....and everyone else seems to expect it to be self sustaining.
Zarch AlDain The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2008.02.15 17:28:00 - [43] Originally by: HolIy smoke Originally by: Attilah Quote: able to with planning and execution....add huge advantages to a covert gang. I would love to know what those might be using the black ops as a portable jump bridge for covert ships for example....to shorcut loops etc. pre planning could involve dropping gsc's with fuel at set ss's on the route. This is easier than setting up pos, claiming sov and getting jump portals setup i thought. sure has a few more disadvantages....but for a similar effect why not put the work into it. Maybe i just see the black ops as the portal and think along the lines of you need to keep fueling a portal, it takes work and plannig to get the network up etc.....and everyone else seems to expect it to be self sustaining. So months training and hundreds of millions of isk for a glorified jump potral that can only take ships that can warp cloaked anyway for the most part (and hence are the least in need of jumping places)... ...hmmm.... Zarch AlDain
HolIy smoke	Posted - 2008.02.15 19:46:00 - [44] wasnt the covert part the whole point? or did i miss it..... oh and only skills i needed where black ops and portal gen.... so no not months of training. Its obviously a thing of opinion....either you fancy stealth ops or you dont... I dont mind if you do or dont...but all i was trying to point out was that theres more to this ship than people are giving it credit for. I wont post anymore....as sometimes theres just no point :P
Hyron Crimson Order	Posted - 2008.02.16 15:11:00 - [45] bought sin. was not impressed by sin. bought navy mega. was happy. wts sin / wtb black ops fix hyron
DaeMon ix Minmatar Aggressive Tendencies Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.02.29 22:54:00 - [46] I also skilled for these expecting to be able to use the stealth side in a variety of ways particularly in npc 0.0 where cyno jammers cant exist. I am also regretting the training time and isk spent on a panther. Hopefully ccp will sort this out soon so it hasn't all been in vain. I dont mind the limited grid, cpu and hp. As an overgrown stealthbomber I have been able to fit it as a reasonably good sniper boat; though with less range than a tempest it is still perfectly usable. The one thing above all that comes from several test runs is the fuel consumption of the accompanying ships, stealthbombers use 150 istopes per light year travelled and recons around 760 per light year travelled. Without fitting expanders and reducing ammunition carried to pretty low amounts I can squeeze in enough to support maybe 6 stealthbombers or 3 and a recon, sorry but thats pathetic as a battleforce and would achieve absolutely nothing. Oh and the bs itself would be left behind for lack of fuel btw. A simple answer to this is to let each ship using the portal carry its own fuel and use that in priority to whatever fuels the bs is holding. Admittedly that means there is no limit to the number of stealth ships able to use it other than the 30 second portal time and 60 second covert cyno time but I dont see that as a major problem since you would need 15-20 sb's and a couple recons to be able to give anyone a headache properly. Bear in mind the short ranges allowed remove the threat of a long range attack without making multiple jumps (fuel limits this) or flying conventionally most of the way (Exposes a very expensive ship to all sorts of dangers with a poor support gang) Just my two-pennorth but let the ships using the portal supply their own fuel and this becomes a viable ship again imho. Nil Illegitimae Carborundum !
fireraven The Singularity Amalgamation Pure.	Posted - 2008.03.02 08:28:00 - [47] also i think the jump portal is completely busted i cant get mien to work on the live sever tried black ops cyno as jump to had every recon cruiser stealth bomber covert ops class there is try and use it and its a no go. petition filed on live sever still no responce. SOME MUST BE TOLD OTHERS MUST BE SHOWN
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.03.03 19:04:00 - [48] I don't think they're even good on paper... They need to have enough fuel space to jump themselves and a decent team of recons/covops a reasonable distance behind enemy lines and them jump them back. Having to faff about with jettison cans is a no-no. It feels utterly clunky and cludgy.
El Mauru Amarr Nexus Analytics Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.03.03 20:22:00 - [49] Giving blackops a covops cloak would be overpowered :-P IMHO give them an extra fuel bay and probably up their distance to 5-6 ly. Other than that they are fine imho. -
Waxau	Posted - 2008.03.03 22:06:00 - [50] Please, keep in mind that i have only flown the Widow, and that my understanding of these ships may vary from yours. However, my view of black ops is a simple one: A covert ship, that combines damage and 'recon' like bonuses. However, this brings up many issues. Now lets say for matter of convenience that all the ships are balanced between each other. In other words, the bonuses on all ships are set in stone. This provides the Widow with many issues. Ill list them below: Lock time - ECM boats 'should' lock fast, to provide the support nessesary. I say this, due to the rather 'uniform' style of ecm boats so far. The only one that differs ofcourse is the scorpion. Fair enough. However, with the sig resolution nerf that Black Ops gain when fitting the cloak, it becomes far longer than the Scorpions lock time. So fair enough, you fit a sensor booster. Simple. But this then leads onto more issues... With using a mid slot for a sensor booster, you are doing two things to your Widow. You are either losing a tank, or losing an ECM, which ofc is where your bonuses reside. So you have 8 mids...1 sensor booster. So 7 slots for ECM and/or tank/tackling/mwd etc. Which then leads me onto my next point: ECM or Tank? When flying around a 500 mil (unfitted cost) BS, the last thing you want, is to not have your isk have its worth in combat. However, when it comes to ECM, the Widow is. Fair enough, it has a BS dps aswell. But at what cost? The ECM range of the Widow is roughly 70km if i recall. That 70km means that a drake can shoot at it (if not jammed) with ease. No snipe setup needed. Not the best thing to hear when using over half a bil in combat. However, it ends there not! The issue that is most annoying for myself is that of the role it has for ECM. ECM as we all know, is luck based. So whats the decission? Tank, or ECM, the luck based tank? Where im sitting, i see many fallbacks on the 'paper' side of black ops, or more importantly the Widow. All of its attributes go against what its meant to be (And ECM Boat). It gets even worse, when you consider that all of the other races dont have to fit a specific module in order to gain the bonuses (Lets face it, a redeemer with no guns?). This makes me think to myself, why do the other 3 races differ in their bonuses? For me, a good start to black ops getting back on track, would be making the bonuses equal to their counterparts (Rook/Falcon, Curse/Pilgrim, Lachesis/Arazu, Huggin/Rapier). Im sure many wont want this, however to me, they are the larger, more powerful versions. Failing that, id love to see the Widow then become untied from this role.
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.03.04 16:56:00 - [51] Yeah, the poor widow. I wonder where it's niche is supposed to be. Taking a 500m ship with no tank into fleet combat would be lunacy (that's what insured scorpions are for) and for small gangs you'd be better off with a smaller more agile much cheaper much faster locking falcon/rook.
Pilgrippa 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.03.04 21:49:00 - [52] Yeah I expect more out of a 500-600 million isk ship. I could only see myself paying that much if they could warp cloaked. As it stands, for what they can do, they should cost half that much.
Guillome Renard	Posted - 2008.03.06 18:53:00 - [53] I too am dissapointed in Black Ops ships, though I'll admit I've yet to actually climb behind the wheel of one. What I would like to see is instead of a class-specific filter for what can use the jump bridge, something like the Warp Strength system. If your attribute is of a value of X or better, you can use the jump bridge. This means that you can use the Jump-bridge to move anything you can get that attribute to X or better on. This gives the Black Ops ship some serious logistical and strategic flexibility, while at the same time, pre-nerfing anything that you're going to slip behind enemy lines because they'd probably be fitting modules and rigs in order to qualify for the JB. I also have no problem with folks having to do it one ship at a time and costing tons of fuel. As it stands, it's an oversized stealth bomber without the defensive ability or escape potential. It can take a small gang of CO ships into another system (in very specific circumstances) where they will be immediately detected and hunted down. One of the best things about EVE is its VAST strategic and tactical flexibility. This should be expanded... albeit carefully. I support the existence of ships like this, I just hope that EVE will become as much about strategic thinking as possible, and less about formulaic operations which require no real thought.
Dapanman1 Amarr Beets and Gravy Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.07 16:08:00 - [54] Can you covert cyno in a cyno jammed system? If you cant that could be a quick and easy fix to this problem. Discuss. Beets, you're among friends.
Lethos Aranis Australia and New Zealand Eve Corp Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.03.08 02:30:00 - [55] Originally by: Dapanman1 Can you covert cyno in a cyno jammed system? If you cant that could be a quick and easy fix to this problem. Discuss. But what's that going to achieve? Only the COs can use the JB and only a few of them per BO which won't even put a dent into the enemy. You can't jump in caps lol. I was really looking forward to flying a Widow but the more I read about BOs on forums, the less I want to train the skills. Seems like an absolute waste of time and money at this point which is a real shame as it has potential. Just one thing, I'm assuming in Eve there must be a cyno/JB/gate to jump? There's no possibility of something like in X3 where you can jump anywhere in range without needed someone else or an alt to setup a destination? Am I right in assuming this screws with game mechanics and lore?
Vmir Gallahasen Gallente Omniscient Order	Posted - 2008.03.08 02:40:00 - [56] Originally by: Dapanman1 Can you covert cyno in a cyno jammed system? I can conclusively say that you cannot generate a covert cyno in a cyno jammed system, at least not on tq. I hadn't even considered that downside until I had the ship. It would certainly make things more interesting if cyno jammers didn't jam covert cynos, though.
Aramova Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.08 05:46:00 - [57] I personally own a Sin and Widow. The Sin is quite a bit worse off then the Domi in all aspects, although the agility bonus it gets makes me drool when I think about the old nano-domi days, that would of been fearsome. The Widow is hands down the best jamming ship in game once you hit Black Ops 5, although the price on it makes it not very practical in fleets. With that, I'd like to see a couple changes to the BlackOps battleships... CoverOp Cloak as stated before: Since the ship does not deliver DPS or any kind of directly impacting systems to hostiles locally, it fits more in line with the Covert Ops style ships. Helios scanner, Arazu cyno, Sin Jump Bridge. 3.5ly Base Jump Range: Could not travel with a dread or Carrier, but 2ly is very very heavily pre-nerfed. 60% reduction in jump drive/portal fuel costs: This would solve a lot of the issues faced, they already have decent cargo holds but lack the space for ammo of any sort plus fuel. Also by doing this, you provide a logical method of letting bombers carry what fuel in what space they have left when they travel with a Black Ops (300 Isotopes per bomber would fit even with two bombs and some cruise missiles) Relative racial HAC resistances IF not given Cloak: To combat direct hostiles the following are true: Bombers got a bonus to damage of Cruise Missiles, Combat Recons got HAC resistances and weapon bonuses. Covert Ops and Force Recons got Covert Ops Cloaks. 40% reduction in powergrid need for Covert Jump Portal Generator. Thoughts? --
DarkXeRoX Exanimo Inc	Posted - 2008.03.08 10:49:00 - [58] Give it a bit more resist, and a seperate hold for fuel and decrease the cost a bit on the fuel. Increase the jump range to 3.5ly so it can jump alrightish but not tag with the big boys. Covert ops cloak would make it a bit overpowered. Maybe a tad more power and cpu on all of em as i had a go at the redeemer and its bloody hard to get a setup decent enough with a cloak and jump portal. its not mend as a solo boat so it has to rely on support from its recon buddies, but should be able to pack a setup decent enough to not die to everybody just like that. ESP for the price tag they got atm, 500-600m for a ship that has all kinds of broken functions on it ? like buying a ferrari with a fiat panda engine in it.
Waxau	Posted - 2008.03.08 11:30:00 - [59] Originally by: Aramova The Widow is hands down the best jamming ship in game once you hit Black Ops 5, although the price on it makes it not very practical in fleets. I have to say, i disagree with this. With the widow being a BS, its far slower than the falcon, with a far longer lock time, and lock range. Yes, it may have strong ecm. But due to the lack in range AND lock speed, it is far worse than the falcon. Combined with the fact that it cannot warp cloaked, screws up its survivability. Thus, its ECM is very short lived in most scenarios.
Poht Minmatar Taurus Inc	Posted - 2008.03.08 15:24:00 - [60] I've been reading through the entire thread and seen some valid claims and some useless ones. But after giving it a bit of thought I saw that there's one thing that noone mentions here, think of an alliance, any alliance. they have in theyr rooster 6 pilots able to field BO's and I'm holding back here, a scout spots a system that has some pos worth shooting. they jump in a BO, he along with his scout conclude that this is a good spot to hit, and figure out the best time for it. later on we have a total of 6 BO's they jump in every possible ship they can and the recons put up cyno's for capitals. POS is put into reinforced, the capitals jump out leaving enough fuel for the rest of the fleet to get out. The POS may or may not be destroyed later on, but it surely can be a viable tactic to disrupt jump bridges, production or whatever and even get the focus of your enemy to the wrong location before u do the real attack. My point is that the BO can start a cyno to let in recons to escalate it further, and having it being able to get further may be good, but imagine an alliance with 20+ BO pilots, we're already talking about a sizeable force that can get into an operation and wreak havoc in local. Don't forget the huge increase if u get even more ships in with it...... Am I totally off track here or???
Vmir Gallahasen Gallente Omniscient Order	Posted - 2008.03.08 18:58:00 - [61] Originally by: Poht they have in theyr rooster 6 pilots able to field BO's and I'm holding back here, a scout spots a system that has some pos worth shooting. they jump in a BO, he along with his scout conclude that this is a good spot to hit, and figure out the best time for it. later on we have a total of 6 BO's they jump in every possible ship they can and the recons put up cyno's for capitals. POS is put into reinforced, the capitals jump out leaving enough fuel for the rest of the fleet to get out. The POS may or may not be destroyed later on, but it surely can be a viable tactic to disrupt jump bridges, production or whatever and even get the focus of your enemy to the wrong location before u do the real attack. My point is that the BO can start a cyno to let in recons to escalate it further, and having it being able to get further may be good, but imagine an alliance with 20+ BO pilots, we're already talking about a sizeable force that can get into an operation and wreak havoc in local. Don't forget the huge increase if u get even more ships in with it...... Am I totally off track here or??? You have to understand that the current jump range of covops BS is very, very small. With L4 jump calibration, it's less than 1/3rd of a carrier. Generally, you can't "surprise" anybody with an established infrastructure with it, it's more like they can't stop you from coming or going. Also, fuel costs are very expensive for ships going through the portal. If you were making a 4LY jump with a standard Arazu, for example, it would cost 1,846 racial isotopes. If you jumped in after it, it would cost you another 960 isotopes. That's a total of 2,806 isotopes for a one-way trip with one recon ship. If I fill my entire Sin's cargo bay with isotopes, it can hold 4,000 isotopes in 600m3. That's more than 70% of my total fuel. The widow has a smaller cargo bay and it must carry missiles besides, so it's even worse for it. A corpm8 could fit 3k isotopes into his. That would be a 93.5% use of fuel in a single jump for him, at level 4 jump portal generation (rank 14). That's pretty heavily pre-nerfed. It makes tactics such as what you're thinking of largely impractible, and in some cases impossible if the target has a cyno jammer in their system.
Aramova Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.10 02:09:00 - [62] Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen You have to understand that the current jump range of covops BS is very, very small. With L4 jump calibration, it's less than 1/3rd of a carrier. Generally, you can't "surprise" anybody with an established infrastructure with it, it's more like they can't stop you from coming or going. Also, fuel costs are very expensive for ships going through the portal. If you were making a 4LY jump with a standard Arazu, for example, it would cost 1,846 racial isotopes. If you jumped in after it, it would cost you another 960 isotopes. That's a total of 2,806 isotopes for a one-way trip with one recon ship. If I fill my entire Sin's cargo bay with isotopes, it can hold 4,000 isotopes in 600m3. That's more than 70% of my total fuel. The widow has a smaller cargo bay and it must carry missiles besides, so it's even worse for it. A corpm8 could fit 3k isotopes into his. That would be a 93.5% use of fuel in a single jump for him, at level 4 jump portal generation (rank 14). That's pretty heavily pre-nerfed. It makes tactics such as what you're thinking of largely impractible, and in some cases impossible if the target has a cyno jammer in their system. Agreed, the range of these is one of the biggest problems. Interested to see if any changes are made in this so-called boost patch. --
AshtarDJ Filthy Scum Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 09:29:00 - [63] My wish list for Black Ops: 1. Longer range jumps (at least 6ly) 2. Lower the jump costs a LOT, to about 1/4 of today's cost. (increasing the cargohold of them could be dangerous, cuz they could then pretty easilly be turned into jump-haulers) Either: 3a. Increase their tank (they are after all expensive ships that are meant to be jumped into a front line, would be nice to be able to tank at least 1 gank fitted BS) and remove all the locking and scan res penalties from the cloaks. 3b. Leave the tank as it is, give the other races the same type of long range role as the widow (like dampening for gallente, target paining for minmatar and tracking disrupting for amarr) and allow the black ops to use covert ops cloak. I don't mind the low dmg, cuz they are not meant to be any type of gank ship. CCP, please listen... /Ash
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.03.10 09:49:00 - [64] Originally by: AshtarDJ My wish list for Black Ops: 1. Longer range jumps (at least 6ly) 2. Lower the jump costs a LOT, to about 1/4 of today's cost. (increasing the cargohold of them could be dangerous, cuz they could then pretty easilly be turned into jump-haulers) Signed. The two factors above (range and ridiculous fuel cost) make these ships useless in the role meant for them.
Waxau	Posted - 2008.03.10 12:22:00 - [65] Originally by: AshtarDJ My wish list for Black Ops: 1. Longer range jumps (at least 6ly) 2. Lower the jump costs a LOT, to about 1/4 of today's cost. (increasing the cargohold of them could be dangerous, cuz they could then pretty easilly be turned into jump-haulers) Either: 3a. Increase their tank (they are after all expensive ships that are meant to be jumped into a front line, would be nice to be able to tank at least 1 gank fitted BS) and remove all the locking and scan res penalties from the cloaks. 3b. Leave the tank as it is, give the other races the same type of long range role as the widow (like dampening for gallente, target paining for minmatar and tracking disrupting for amarr) and allow the black ops to use covert ops cloak. I don't mind the low dmg, cuz they are not meant to be any type of gank ship. CCP, please listen... /Ash Agree with all, and more importantly, 3b. From where im sitting, i see a gang of black ops, positioned around a gate or stationat long range, with a few recons (which were bridged in) with them, close to the station/gate. Eg - Lachesis for pointing, rapier for webbing. Then just let the black ops do the rest. However, with the variation, it makes things a tad more complicated. True, variation is a needed factor to make things fun, and such. But with the current black ops, its just not effective. Take recons: Gal = Scram Min = Web Amarr = Neut (removes active tanks) Cal = ECM Combined, it renders all ships dead in the water. However, black ops have no such 'cohesive bond' between them. The widow ecms, and the rest just do whatever they want. Atleast thats how i view it.
Waxau	Posted - 2008.03.10 12:29:00 - [66] Just had a thought regarding the 'jumping'. Keep in mind, this is more so a brain fart of mine, and has no real thinking behind it. But what if you could 'link' with other Black ops in your gang (and be within 2km or so) to reduce jump bridge costs? Or increase jump bridge range? thus, theres a benefit to using them in groups. And ofc, have it stacking nerfed, so you dont actually get the ability to jump from north to south in one go :P Perhaps even have the types of ships allowed with this method? Eg - Normally, only cov ops. With a group of black ops, you can jump non-cov ops? Again, brain fart...nothing thought out.
Dirtee Girl Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.03.10 18:10:00 - [67] well tbh the fuel requirment is pretty sill the real problem surrounds what you can jump through . so far only recons,b-ops,EAS'and cov-ops can be jump bridged . correct? so what does that do for you really ? can a recon(family of ships) fleet shoot down station services in a reasonable amount of time to make it a do-able attack ? can they be jump bridged behind an enemy gate camp and cause enough havoc behind enemy lines to draw say 50+ gate camp off so conventional ships can enter enemy space ? is there any crucial part of a pos network or infastructure as a whole that a recon fleet can sufficiently dammage on it's own ? NO . it sounds nice but in the end any ship that could have a realistic impact cannot be bridged . why ? maybe because if we could simply jump anybody thru cheaply we could constantly jump past control points with anything we wanted allow alliances in turtle mode to survive even when fairly heavily camped in without resorting to pvp to open the pipes . now dont get me wrong i think this ship is badly nerfed and the jump gate is badly implemented what should be done is the b-ops that is bridge-ing should require cap not fuel but to do it continously he would need 2 maybe three logistics or pumping up his cap to do it well say at a flat rate of 80% cap per ship . secondly all tech 2 ships should be able to jump no tech 1 . this really allows the b-ops to carry a combat fitting not a cargo fitting . it allows you to put a fleet with REAL teeth behind enemy lines . it would require a versitile fleet as your going to need a few logistics to keep the bridge going at a decent pace . and the resistances? c'mon really dont be like that. it's a black ops not a Bich-ops *
Waxau	Posted - 2008.03.10 19:05:00 - [68] Disagree - These ships are the ultimate in harrassment ships. We all know how annoying afk isk farmers are etc. Now what if these 'afk isk farmers' decloaked without warning, and killed something? Now imagine a gang of them. Theres alot of potential, but the mechanics are holding them back.
Lethos Aranis Australia and New Zealand Eve Corp Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.03.11 03:40:00 - [69] Originally by: Waxau Just had a thought regarding the 'jumping'. Keep in mind, this is more so a brain fart of mine, and has no real thinking behind it. But what if you could 'link' with other Black ops in your gang (and be within 2km or so) to reduce jump bridge costs? Or increase jump bridge range? thus, theres a benefit to using them in groups. And ofc, have it stacking nerfed, so you dont actually get the ability to jump from north to south in one go :P Perhaps even have the types of ships allowed with this method? Eg - Normally, only cov ops. With a group of black ops, you can jump non-cov ops? Again, brain fart...nothing thought out. That's actually a rather interesting idea. Say 4 BOs allow maybe 10LY (make that the max) jump? But we still have the problem of fuel at the end of the day. I like Ashtars ideas :)
DOG WHITE	Posted - 2008.03.13 11:48:00 - [70] Originally by: AshtarDJ My wish list for Black Ops: 1. Longer range jumps (at least 6ly) 2. Lower the jump costs a LOT, to about 1/4 of today's cost. (increasing the cargohold of them could be dangerous, cuz they could then pretty easilly be turned into jump-haulers) Either: 3a. Increase their tank (they are after all expensive ships that are meant to be jumped into a front line, would be nice to be able to tank at least 1 gank fitted BS) and remove all the locking and scan res penalties from the cloaks. 3b. Leave the tank as it is, give the other races the same type of long range role as the widow (like dampening for gallente, target paining for minmatar and tracking disrupting for amarr) and allow the black ops to use covert ops cloak. I don't mind the low dmg, cuz they are not meant to be any type of gank ship. CCP, please listen... /Ash I agree and sign that , CCP listen plz
reg keeper FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.16 00:17:00 - [71] Originally by: AshtarDJ My wish list for Black Ops: 1. Longer range jumps (at least 6ly) 2. Lower the jump costs a LOT, to about 1/4 of today's cost. (increasing the cargohold of them could be dangerous, cuz they could then pretty easilly be turned into jump-haulers) Either: 3a. Increase their tank (they are after all expensive ships that are meant to be jumped into a front line, would be nice to be able to tank at least 1 gank fitted BS) and remove all the locking and scan res penalties from the cloaks. 3b. Leave the tank as it is, give the other races the same type of long range role as the widow (like dampening for gallente, target paining for minmatar and tracking disrupting for amarr) and allow the black ops to use covert ops cloak. I don't mind the low dmg, cuz they are not meant to be any type of gank ship. /Ash In nut shell he has the points that is causing all black op's pilots pain. Please fix this class of ship. Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Ahz Macabre Votum Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.03.16 01:14:00 - [72] Originally by: DaeMon ix A simple answer to this is to let each ship using the portal carry its own fuel and use that in priority to whatever fuels the bs is holding... Love this idea but would modify it by requring a black ops ship on both ends of the jump. Just like a jump bridge. Bring your own fuel. Add higher resists and cov ops cloak capability and I'm more than happy. Finally, I know they can lock onto a black ops cyno. Can they use a regular cyno? I'm about three days away from having my panther. The primary use would be to trap insurgents in our sov space by getting ahead of their retreat.
AshtarDJ Filthy Scum Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.16 13:06:00 - [73] Keep on signing guys... let's tell CCP that black ops needs some of their love.. ;)
haq aan Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.03.16 14:27:00 - [74] Originally by: AshtarDJ My wish list for Black Ops: 1. Longer range jumps (at least 6ly) 2. Lower the jump costs a LOT, to about 1/4 of today's cost. (increasing the cargohold of them could be dangerous, cuz they could then pretty easilly be turned into jump-haulers) Either: 3a. Increase their tank (they are after all expensive ships that are meant to be jumped into a front line, would be nice to be able to tank at least 1 gank fitted BS) and remove all the locking and scan res penalties from the cloaks. 3b. Leave the tank as it is, give the other races the same type of long range role as the widow (like dampening for gallente, target paining for minmatar and tracking disrupting for amarr) and allow the black ops to use covert ops cloak. I don't mind the low dmg, cuz they are not meant to be any type of gank ship. CCP, please listen... /Ash The FIX is strong with this one. Signed. Please pay attention. haq
Sage VII Free Mercenaries Union Red Republic	Posted - 2008.03.16 15:27:00 - [75] Agreed, Range is a problem a small boost wouldn't overpower them and still would make them useful. The real problem is the JP is useless as stated by everyone in thread. I would love to use it to do traps make basically covert hot drops but 1 ship does not denote a hot drop. I don't necessarily agree with NEEDing the covert ops cloak. I would jump for joy if i could use one but in its current status i survive just fine with a t2 cloak. At current status my sin is no more then a camper at heart. Give it a bit of loving and we could see more then just a camper but the roamer as intended.
Wild1 A.I.M.	Posted - 2008.03.29 10:07:00 - [76] Not only that, but the base resistances on this ship are marginally better (e.g. no discernable difference), whilst sacrificing approx 15% shield and armour capacity. In the case of tyhe Sin, you get 25 m3 more drone space - but so what. Also lose a low slot - and for an armor tanker that's a loss, add a high slot but only 4 turrets possible. PG is down from Domi as well - All around, I believe this was a huge flop. Useless - and the skill requirements are significant, as is the cost. Typical CCP - release something "half-baked" is better than nothing at all. 6 months from now they'll tweak it again because no one is using them (or buying them) which has an impact on their overall balance quotient. Stupid wastye of isk, IMO. LOL@CCP. /Wild1 Originally by: LadyShu I skilled towards blackops right after they were announced by ccp (also cloak 5 as it was a rumour that it would be required for Black Ops sigh) The role of this ship for clandestine operations behind enemy lines sounded perfect to me and my playstyle. I jumped into a panther when they were available on sisi and tried some fittings and tested the ship in general especially the jump drive stuff, i made suggestions in the gamedev forum and discussed with other possible blackop pilots, and in my opinion ccp failed again with a ship for a given role. Tons of testers mentioned that the jumpdrive fueluse is a joke... nothing happened. I got a pretty expensive panther on sisi today and really nothing changed :( - 4 ly jumprange may be enough on the paper... it should be enough to bypass some gatecamps etc, but the system layout of the most systems doesnt allow big jumps, and if so it needs like what? 800+ isotopes?! if you have enough fuel with you for 2 4ly jumps you cant carry much capboosters and very little ammo. - The Jumpbridge is a joke... you cant jump many recons, even if everyone brings in there own fuel, the jumpbridge only holds a few seconds and you really need to work with cans. - The Slot and Grid... Well you have 8 high slots. I tried (at least on the panther) 800er artillerys, 650er etc. doesnt really happen which ACs you fit (dont even think about fitting 1400ers artis...) you get troubles with at least 2 highslots... you need 5 guns, 1 cloak, 1x bridge generator.. impossible if you want a decent tank (if not fitted for speed)... This ship (panther) actually is a limited phoon which can move when cloaked, thats it. And since you cant warp cloaked everyone sees you coming. I dont demand a solo pwn mobil (the dps isnt high enough on this ship for this either...) but for the price of this ship, the very high skill requirements (i guess you can easy go for caps after this ^^) and the limited use its just a waste of isk. My suggestions would be: - more cargospace (more fuel?) or - possibility of warp cloaked (make cov op cloak available to black ops its atm a bs sized recon after all...) or - let them jump 8ly instead 4ly, then people could live with the limitations. I cant see a future for Black Ops if the stay like they are :/ The idea was pretty good and the solo combat functionality is great in blackops, but it really lacks some bonuses for its intended role. sorry for my poor english
Killerhound	Posted - 2008.03.29 13:28:00 - [77] I actually quit playing because of those ships. I will suspend playing until this is fixed. I hate this "OH look, skill 6 months for a ship and get it." then when the ship arrived, oops sorry no need to comment on this. I think they are crap.
nightcat114	Posted - 2008.04.16 15:17:00 - [78] Well I totally agree with this thread, being a Black Ops pilot myself (got my Sin a few weeks ago). It is crap that these ships cant use the Covert Ops cloak because if people can see you come in it defeats the entire purpose of the description of these ships. I was playing around in an asteriod belt last night and went over to one of my corp mates who was mining...you can't spy on them(or anyone else) very well if they see you warp in and then cloak. With the Jump portal generator, it doesnt seem very effective to pull your squad into a new system since you need a Recon cruiser to get it in (since it CAN use the Covert Ops cloak, therefore having a shot at getting through gatecamps, and Covert Cyno field generator)...Jump in a black ops and only get a couple of ships in...whats up with that? In Short, I'm agreeing with this thread, and going to send a petition to CCP in the next week or so complaining about it (get enough people to do this also, and they will probably change that...its happened in the past (NOS, MWDs on haulers, etc)
Titas Agor TITANS OF PEACE	Posted - 2008.04.16 21:38:00 - [79] I personally stoped training for this when i found out it could not warp when cloaked. Its a "Black Ops" ship... its main funtion should be to go in and out of hostile territory un-detected untill its too late!.. I think the high fuel costing should be a lil bit better... but as with so many other ppl in this thread... the ability to warp when cloaked with a covert ops cloak i think would make these ships what they were inteded for... As for the fuel tho.. what could be an idea is to somehow hav a new bonus for fuel compression... but like how the capital mining works with compressing ore, so you could fit a lot more fuel in the cargohold, without actually increasing the cargohold and making everyone worry about turning them into haulers. This would fix the fuel problem and would easierly have enough fuel to jump more then 1 ship and more then 1 trip coz thats just rediculas. I think the jump distance is fine, afterall it should be much less then a capital ship, its only a BS afterall it shouldnt be able to jump insane ammounts of systems at a time. Maybe more powergrid or cpu so you can fit at least a half decent tank on them with some kind of offensive potential. All these comments are just my opinions, i cant actually fly one myself but im jus going by the stats, and everyone else's comments and the reasons why i actually stoped training for them and will never fly one till they are properly addressed.
Pringlescan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.17 02:38:00 - [80] One of my biggest fears is that they will increase the ly range and then not decrease the jump fuel cost. I can definitely see not even being able to carry enough fuel in the hold for a single 6ly falcon jump.
Scharfe Kerneisen	Posted - 2008.05.09 05:27:00 - [81] What if they gave the Black Ops ship a separate bay for holding fuel. Like a Drone Bay or Corporate Hanger Array... It's just a separate thing that opens up and allows for fuel to be stuck inside. And leave the regular storage space alone (don't make is smaller!).
Greenbolt Minmatar Un4seen Development	Posted - 2008.05.09 16:41:00 - [82] I have the prereqs to fly a Panther. Have for a while. Tested one out on test servers.. the idea is there but as stated over n over..the pre-nerf is STRONG in this one. A seperate fuel bay would go along way to making this ship useful (similar to Dreadnaughts stront?) and prevent it from being a jump freighter clone. To me that is the single strongest downside. They just dont do there logistics side very well. Bit more cpu/pg would be nice too..(But there are few minmatar ships I dont say that for). As a Rapier pilot..I have to lean towards those that say the ability to warp cloaked might make them a bit overpowered as hit n run ships versus smaller than BS targets though It would be awesome fun. --------------------------------------------------- Scordite -Who was it that said that flying minmatar is kinda like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair while firing an uzi?
J909 KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.09 17:30:00 - [83] Edited by: J909 on 09/05/2008 17:30:51 1/ add decent size fuel bay. 2/ Cov ops cloak bonus the same as other cov ops ship - how these ships dont have this is just a ccp facelpalm moment surely. 3/ double carrier jump range. do these very simple 3 and they are fixed, yes they are a bit brittle but they should be, they are surely meant to be the BS version of force recon, less damage etc, meant for sneaky sneaky stuf. oh well until then i guess my Sin will just sit looking pretty in the station... /edit and yes they have to be faction fitted just to fill the slots =/ ----------------------------------------------- Cash from Chaos
Bodhisattvas Prophets Of a Damned Universe	Posted - 2008.05.10 05:39:00 - [84] Fix Black ops.
KIADuplex Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.10 10:39:00 - [85] In this thread everyone agree's on a few simple changes that would fix this ship class. Please CCP thanks xxx
SATAN BURN EDEN Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2008.05.10 18:04:00 - [86] The biggest problem with black ops ships is that it take 2 of them to do the job of a normal battleship. What is the point of a ship that is designed to jump into hostile territory to kill and terrorize when it cant actually kill anything on its own? If you set up say a Widow with max skills all damage, the best of the best you still get the same DPS as a Cerberus. How are we supposed to kill any meaningful targets with 400 dps, when your average battleship tanks 2x that with ease. So now CCP wants us to jump in a fleet of black ops ships to do the job of a 5 man nanofag gang with vegas that do 500dps each while doing 10k sec as well.
San Rintu Asshats and Alcoholics Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.11 00:10:00 - [87] Indeed, spending a few bil to bridge in several black ops is absolutely ludicrous when you could just drop a whole fleet with change to spare and bust your way through a system. Black Ops certainly need a covert cloak. Maybe one that has a higher base CPU need so that the pilot must sacrifice DPS to fit one, much like the Force/Combat Recon balance. I halted training for one as soon as I saw the stats for one. It simply made no sense to spend such a ridiculous amount on a Widow when I could equivocally buy 10-20 Rooks/Falcons with the same ISK and have a ship that is more useful in every way. The Black Ops is a nice gimmick atm CCP but seriously, you got my hopes up a lot when you announced them only to slap us with a wet fish. /Signed on the changes
James Duar Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.11 06:05:00 - [88] I'd add a fuel bay and make it truly massive, citing advanced storage technology. Then the jump range should be made something like two thirds carrier distance. Then, I'd give the black ops the ability to make blind jumps into systems without cyno fields with the attendant result of arriving at a random point in space. Get rid of the jump portal and instead make it so the black ops can select "Squad Jump" and jump all the ships in it's fleet squadron at the same time with it. Blind jumps would naturally allow black ops to penetrate cyno jammed systems. Quite possibly a blind jump should illuminate a beacon showing the departure point of the ships so you can kill stragglers.
Callthetruth Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.05.11 11:12:00 - [89] CCP put em in. Like jump freighters if they are useless no one uses em as is happening now. 4 yr jump range as said is a joke. Reduce fuel usage seems the most ideal outcome and maybe give cov ops cloak access. Perhaps other nerfs can be applied but really fact is no one wants em they are pretty useless given price u can buy a dread for 2 of em. Outcome something needs doing
Tadehiro Kudzu Collective Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.12 03:02:00 - [90] Mmm, what if we stopped treating it like a combat ship then and instead focused on it's logistical capability instead? It'd be like a mini carrier except more for the roaming gang. ---------Highs------------- 1x Large hull repp 1x Large armor repper II 1x Large shield transporter II 1x Covert Jump portal generator 1x Covert Cyno Generator 1x Amarr Navy large Smartbomb ---------Mids-------------- 6x Cap recharger IIs ---------Lows------------ 6x Cargo Expander IIs ---------Rigs----------- 2x Cargohold Optimization II --------Drones---------- 5x Armor maintence bots 5x Shield maintence bots 5x heavy ECM drones 5x warrior II's I know, It's not a combat ship it's a glorified logistical ship, but 3712 m3 of cargo space can't be discounted (that's roughly 24,000 of isotopes). Given that no one's been able to agree on a combat fit or even if it's combat worthy, everyone should be able to agree that using this ship as a mobile repair point for covert ships as well as solving the problem of not enough isotopes brings this ship to the world of viable. <.< Or am I off base here?
DuKai	Posted - 2008.05.12 12:53:00 - [91] I think the above post is actually what CCP was trying to think when they conceived the Blackops. As it stands now... the ship is a severe waste of the combat pilot that sits in it. Why risk a ship of this price in combat when it is little more capable than a battlecruiser in combat? The above would be a great "branch" skill for logistics and hauling pilots: perhaps a hybrid of those two skill streams can be used to solve the storage problems etc However, none of this will happen as they've already railroaded so many PVP pilots into this dead-end logistics (in the true sense of the word) ship.
Killerhound Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.05.12 13:22:00 - [92] Anybody found informations about what CCP is thinking of to change to get those ships more "usefull" or even "usefull" at all. Well just waiting until then to undock my "Widow" and to kick some pods. At the moment enemies are just laughing at you if you bring such a ship, or even worse your own corpmates in Battlecruiser pwn you faster then you can imagine.
LadyShu Federation of Synthetic Persons STYX.	Posted - 2008.05.13 13:34:00 - [93] i dont think any dev said anything about this Situation. I posted this topic here right after they were introduced on tq and i tried a panther after testing this ship for days on sisi. In the beginning the most people have seen this thread as a regular whine thread without even knowing anything about flying this ships. Good to see this change now since a few people tried this crap ships for tons of ISK. But i still think ccp will not change anything on this ships in "near future" but instead introduce new crap ships with tons of skill and isk requirements with some new add-on... gnah... its not that we demand solopwn mobils but we want todo something usefull with this ships. ... EveTUBE.COM - Your bandwidth will be owned sir.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.13 13:47:00 - [94] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 13/05/2008 13:50:24 As a black ops pilot, I must Congratulate CCP on providing my Redeemer with a excellent Partner to my cov ops hauler. My Cargo Expanded Redeemer is a excellent jumprive Blockade Runner Hauler and my Cov Ops Hauler, the Pilgrim, is fantastic in what it does in being able to warp around cloaked. I trust both these ships were tested repeatedly for real world practical usage and again, I thank CCP for the for the most ingenious part - Giving the Cargo Expanded Redeemer enough Cargo to fit 1.4km3 worth from the Cov Ops Hauler (pilgrim) and carry enough fuel to Portal the Cov Ops hauler (pilgrim) back in one go! Seriously, Black ops ships should be scapped since pvp today has obsoleted black ops compleatly. All you can do with black ops is get a black ops gang together, send a bait battleship with cyno to attack someone and then jump in. Then you relise you cannot portal in Hics and other ships so its a waste of time since the people you are laying a cyno trap for will nano away. What the black ops needs is the ability to portal any ship size smaller than battleship. And the anyship wanting to use the portal uses fuel from its own cargo and not the black ops. And the Redeemer needs enough fitting to fit a non-comedy setup -- Billion Isk Mission
Suitonia Gallente interimo	Posted - 2008.05.14 11:54:00 - [95] Black-Ops are fairly disappointing at the moment. If CCP want to make them work then they need to look at the following. 1. Covert Cynos in cyno jammed systems. - It's not like you can pratically siege towers with them. This is the biggest problem for me, as mentioned fuel costs are insane and the majority of controlled 0.0 is cyno jammed which means you have to spend more fuel jumping around to get to where you want to. (See Limited cargospace), this is also an annoyance when it comes to jumping things with you. Jump Range problems is also Evident with this. I think this would be the single, biggest change that would make Black-ops useful. 2. I'd look at giving the black ops a lower m3 fuel. How about "compressed Isotopes" which are 1/5th of the size (or whatever amount would make them balanced). This would increase the amount of fuel they could carry without having to worry about issues caused by just increasing the cargo bay. 3. Increased jump range could also be looked at. --- I've always wondered about those Vagabond pilots...
J909 KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.15 05:42:00 - [96] Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 13/05/2008 17:28:12 Edited by: Lord WarATron on 13/05/2008 13:50:24 As a black ops pilot, I must Congratulate CCP on providing my Redeemer with a excellent Partner to my cov ops hauler. My Cargo Expanded Redeemer is a excellent jumprive Blockade Runner Hauler and my Cov Ops Hauler, the Pilgrim, is fantastic in what it does in being able to warp around cloaked. I trust both these ships were tested repeatedly for real world practical usage and again, I thank CCP for the for the most ingenious part - Giving the Cargo Expanded Redeemer enough Cargo to fit 1.4km3 worth from the Cov Ops Hauler (pilgrim) and carry enough fuel to Portal the Cov Ops hauler (pilgrim) back in one go! Seriously, Black ops ships should be scapped since pvp today has obsoleted black ops compleatly. All you can do with black ops is get a black ops gang together, send a bait battleship with cyno to attack someone and then jump in. Then you relise you cannot portal in Hics and other ships so its a waste of time since the people you are laying a cyno trap for will nano away. What the black ops needs is the ability to portal any ship size smaller than battleship. And also have it so that anyship wanting to use the portal uses fuel from its own cargo and not the black ops. And the Redeemer needs enough fitting to fit a non-comedy setup LOL - that was good =) and yeh i hear ya on the comdey setups for these things, i spent about 1 bil on fittings on my Sin to even just be able to fill the slots and give it a half decent tank, there is no way im even undocking in that thing until it can fit a cov ops cloak. Best thing about the Sin is it looks nice when im sat in station spinning it round watching my skill points go up 1 at a time, is this really what CCP wanted out of this ship class ----------------------------------------------- Cash from Chaos
XXJackXX Caldari Eternity INC.	Posted - 2008.05.15 08:05:00 - [97] about black ops yes lots of problems due to their lack of cargo hold and job that can do.Jump portal needs loots of fuel to jump ships to long range you need to go around with your hauler alt with cargo ship full with fuel.due to lack op farco hold it's jump range is realy short.maybe reduction of fuel request for ly could be usefull.and more cargo for fuel to portal people.about the slots and grid it is no desing to be solo ship it desing to trap or support.
MacaMyHe	Posted - 2008.05.15 17:32:00 - [98] 1. let BO still use t2 cloak at max, but make it able to warp cloaked, leaving all it's penalties. low scanres and would save most of shipp classes from being ganked. 2. increase JR to be inline with titan's JR. (big papa escort?) 3. and surely reduce fuel cost, leave this to mathman's just little boost, which wont make them pwnmobile's as combat capacity still omfg crappy
Killerhound Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.05.17 22:22:00 - [99] Has anybody heard anything about the black ops from the devs? Just curious as my last official information was that they would be changed somehow. To be hones the only concern I had so far in empyrean age was if they'd ballance the 1bio Widow I have in my hangar in 0.0. I was hoping to undock maybe once in future... "Oh my great hider, relinquish from the dark and start looking for the light"
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.18 06:29:00 - [100] Originally by: Killerhound Has anybody heard anything about the black ops from the devs? Just curious as my last official information was that they would be changed somehow. To be hones the only concern I had so far in empyrean age was if they'd ballance the 1bio Widow I have in my hangar in 0.0. I was hoping to undock maybe once in future... "Oh my great hider, relinquish from the dark and start looking for the light" CCP's idea of balancing these is completely incongruous with what the literate player base thinks--they tentatively said a larger or seperate fuel bay may be a solution but the serious pilots know the issues that cripple these ships go beyond fuel bay to the more basic question of role. Two recons can kill a blackops right now with a fraction of the skills and resources. I can only speak for the redeemer but its issues are hardly unique. Lack of fitting, even without the bridge, capacitor that is on par with the tech one, nothing to remedy the penalty of fitting a cloak, questionable velocity bonus... They are and will be cloaked haulers barring some massive change. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
mamolian Eternity INC. Project Alice.	Posted - 2008.05.18 06:49:00 - [101] This ship class should be the means for empire based corps to raid deep into 0.0 in my opinion.. I'd love to see 15 man recon/stealthbomber gangs being bridged all the way from empire to the edge of 0.0 and have enough fuel to get home again.. as is right now to send a single recon 1.3 AU takes up enough fuel to fill 1/2 of my available cargo bay in the sin It needs to have a similar or greater range to what a carrier can manage. Preferably in a separate fuel bay. I'd also love to see this ship have the ability to cyno/jump/bridge to a cynojammed system. The covert ops cloak ability.. hmm I'm all for it! sure! but it may be a little overpowered? :) -----------
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.19 07:51:00 - [102] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 19/05/2008 07:51:48 Originally by: Erotic Irony Originally by: Killerhound Has anybody heard anything about the black ops from the devs? Just curious as my last official information was that they would be changed somehow. To be hones the only concern I had so far in empyrean age was if they'd ballance the 1bio Widow I have in my hangar in 0.0. I was hoping to undock maybe once in future... "Oh my great hider, relinquish from the dark and start looking for the light" CCP's idea of balancing these is completely incongruous with what the literate player base thinks--they tentatively said a larger or seperate fuel bay may be a solution but the serious pilots know the issues that cripple these ships go beyond fuel bay to the more basic question of role. Two recons can kill a blackops right now with a fraction of the skills and resources. I can only speak for the redeemer but its issues are hardly unique. Lack of fitting, even without the bridge, capacitor that is on par with the tech one, nothing to remedy the penalty of fitting a cloak, questionable velocity bonus... They are and will be cloaked haulers barring some massive change. What CCP need to do is tell us how they want Black ops to be used. Nobody knows its role and CCP has not communicated how they expect these ships to be used. A Sin and a Widow can actually be used to some extent, but a ship like a Redeemer cannot even fit a basic fitout let alone use one! The only clue is that the Redeemer has exactly enough cargo in a cargo expander fit to portal a cov ops hauler (pilgrim) someware and then to jump back. Even if they fixed fuel, the fact black ops cannot portal heavy interdictors or dictos makes the whole thing rather silly. -- Billion Isk Mission
mamolian Eternity INC. Project Alice.	Posted - 2008.05.19 10:34:00 - [103] Edited by: mamolian on 19/05/2008 10:34:25 Allowing them to portal hictors/dictors is a terrible idea tbh -----------
Matrixcvd Caldari Rionnag Alba	Posted - 2008.05.19 12:24:00 - [104] lets get going on this guys, i would finish skillin for it if there was some hope other than " when we released the Black Ops they came pre nerfed" well un nerf the damn things already, 10 recons 6LYs back and forth, warp cloaked so you could bridge them right into a camp, AMIRITE!!?!?!?!?!
GreatKroma	Posted - 2008.05.19 19:18:00 - [105] Bump so devs dont forget this.!
Skeltek Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.05.20 06:46:00 - [106] Edited by: Skeltek on 20/05/2008 06:48:50 Edited by: Skeltek on 20/05/2008 06:47:39 Usual a post like mine now DROWNS in the sheer flood of others. But I`d like to say that I like the Black Ops like they are now. Most people do not seem to realize, that the Black Ops ship tanks are made weaker than their t1 counterparts. In my opinion, if they would finaly HALVE the tank, people might start realizing, that these ships were never meant for regular combat. The ability of the Widow for example to jamm up to 80km range was always regarded by me as a last resort so it can defend itself at least a small bit in emergencies. for me the main functions are still: -stationary cloaking -ability to let the gang do 3 jumps using the portal instead of using Jumpgates(thus evading an enemy Scout, gang and backward scout or jumping into the system the enmy gang is located in, without their forward scout seeing you) -enough fuel to override two times 4 Jumpgates and back(saving the gang 16LY=aprox 16 jumpgates) -mobile resupply/repair/supportstation -high agility while flying cloaked(the only thing I might consider improving; maybe double the cloaked velocity bonus?) kind regards, Skeltek ps: this reminds me on the Logistic Cruiser whines back in the early days. people started using them lately, after they got additional bonuses on CPU and powergrid. In the end, they still use the same fitting I used before the bonuses were introduced. But of course, nowdays Titans are also regarded TOTALY USELESS by everybody since the Doomsday was nerfed.
DuKai	Posted - 2008.05.20 08:18:00 - [107] If these ships were never supposed to be combat ships... ...Why do these ships require heavily skilled COMBAT pilots to fly them? If the above post is correct... Please base these ship's graphics and stats upon haulers - and make hauler/merchant/logistics as the primary skilltree.
RoCkEt X Caldari The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.05.20 12:00:00 - [108] it is impossible to pin a blackops down when its not in 0.0.... so my widow jumps thru a gate and theres a camp. 1 - allign to the next gate but dont hit warp 2 - as soon as ship decloaks from gate, hit the cloak. 3 - ship speeds up to 75% in 4-5 seconds while in cloak. 4 - uncloak, instantly hit warp. only chance enemy has is if they manage to bump/decloak you in the 4-5 seconds it takes to get up to speed. As for uses i agree. i use my widow for camping freighters. its perfect... the scout comes through, cant tell i'm there because i am cloaked, freighter jumps in, wont log under cloak because he dosent know i am there, freighter uncloaks, i uncloak, online tank and sensor booster, lock in approx 4 seconds. freighter dies 5mins later. i warp out, alt jumps thru and collects phat loots. BLACKOPS CAMP: sit in 0.0/lowsec w/ blackops gang cloaked on a gate, enemy scout comes through, cant find you, enemies jump in, you face*****before they know what hit them. its not the intended use of blackops... but its a use nonetheless.
William Alex Viscosity space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2008.05.20 13:47:00 - [109] Edited by: William Alex on 20/05/2008 13:47:01 I envision a setup that involves something like this [Redeemer, Sniper] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II Sensor Booster II Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Improved Cloaking Device II [empty high slot] You can basically spread a few of these around a gate and unclock -> snipe if they send a tackler to you the guys far from you will kill it. If you're in danger cloak again.
Skeltek Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.05.21 00:33:00 - [110] Originally by: DuKai If these ships were never supposed to be combat ships... ...Why do these ships require heavily skilled COMBAT pilots to fly them? If the above post is correct... Please base these ship's graphics and stats upon haulers - and make hauler/merchant/logistics as the primary skilltree. What kind of COMBAT skills are needed to fly one except for BS lvl5? Its just Logistic/Carrier skills other than that. Besides, BS5 is no COMBAT skill. Btw, if you find the stats to be too high for a Logistic ship, why dont you buy one and do some PvP with it? Btw, if logistic ships are just in the same category like haulers in your eyes, you might as well suggest to downgrade the stats of Dreadnoughs and Interdictors to be more in line with Battelcruisers and Condors, so that they can actualy just do that and only that, what they were supposed to be able of.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.21 01:34:00 - [111] Originally by: William Alex Edited by: William Alex on 20/05/2008 13:47:01 I envision a setup that involves something like this [Redeemer, Sniper] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II Sensor Booster II Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Improved Cloaking Device II [empty high slot] You can basically spread a few of these around a gate and unclock -> snipe if they send a tackler to you the guys far from you will kill it. If you're in danger cloak again. holy **** this is a terrible setup 4 sensor boosters? No MWD? No plate? DC? just use an apoc with a cloak, it would fail and cost less ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Vas Doppleganger	Posted - 2008.05.21 17:03:00 - [112] Originally by: Erotic Irony Originally by: William Alex Edited by: William Alex on 20/05/2008 13:47:01 I envision a setup that involves something like this [Redeemer, Sniper] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II Sensor Booster II Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Improved Cloaking Device II [empty high slot] You can basically spread a few of these around a gate and unclock -> snipe if they send a tackler to you the guys far from you will kill it. If you're in danger cloak again. holy **** this is a terrible setup 4 sensor boosters? No MWD? No plate? DC? just use an apoc with a cloak, it would fail and cost less Why would anyone put a tank on a sniper fit? Your tank is range or in this cloak and be ready to jump out. The idea of have several sniper black-ops setup for popping in on a camp and sniping a few ships can really mess with a camp. Have a recon cyno you in off grid and a cov op set up a mini-warp to get you in range is an awesome idea. While you are sniping you can align to the recon. Warp out and cloak up until the next cyno is ready.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.21 18:29:00 - [113] Originally by: Vas Doppleganger Why would anyone put a tank on a sniper fit? because your ship is worth nearly 8-10 battleships and is ininsurable not to mention its several magnitudes worse than an apoc? show me a killmail using this pr0 fit ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
William Alex Viscosity space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2008.05.21 18:58:00 - [114] Originally by: Erotic Irony Originally by: Vas Doppleganger Why would anyone put a tank on a sniper fit? because your ship is worth nearly 8-10 battleships and is ininsurable not to mention its several magnitudes worse than an apoc? show me a killmail using this pr0 fit No need to resort to name calling.. I don't think that I'd personally tank it in THAT setup (200km sniper) but You have a point on the cost. As far as that's concerned though if you can't afford to fly one then it should be a non-issue.
Ashteron'n'KA ARCA CORP CORPVS DELICTI	Posted - 2008.05.21 23:58:00 - [115] What I wonder the most about black ops is not the timer but why the radius for jumping cant be say 10-15k from the ship so the gang can sit in the departure system cloaked - at 2500 radius around the portal when its opened - the ships have to sit so close they are out of cloak when running in a group operation - an increase in the overall timer would be good but an increase in the radius of jumpable craft would be a godsend.
Khan Soriano Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.05.22 11:23:00 - [116] So... now that we got about 10,000 different ideas on how to boost and create a role for Black Ops (suprisingly most of them are very good/interesting and usually not overpowered), I think we all would like to hear some comments from CPP about what is going on and when its going to happen. Maybe a short Devblog is in order?
Mrski Okupator The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.05.22 11:32:00 - [117] Originally by: Vas Doppleganger Originally by: Erotic Irony Originally by: William Alex Edited by: William Alex on 20/05/2008 13:47:01 I envision a setup that involves something like this [Redeemer, Sniper] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II Sensor Booster II Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Improved Cloaking Device II [empty high slot] You can basically spread a few of these around a gate and unclock -> snipe if they send a tackler to you the guys far from you will kill it. If you're in danger cloak again. holy **** this is a terrible setup 4 sensor boosters? No MWD? No plate? DC? just use an apoc with a cloak, it would fail and cost less Why would anyone put a tank on a sniper fit? Your tank is range or in this cloak and be ready to jump out. The idea of have several sniper black-ops setup for popping in on a camp and sniping a few ships can really mess with a camp. Have a recon cyno you in off grid and a cov op set up a mini-warp to get you in range is an awesome idea. While you are sniping you can align to the recon. Warp out and cloak up until the next cyno is ready. If you would stop playing EVE only in your mind, you would see how this 'fitting' and 'tactic' spell epic fail. ___
Minny	Posted - 2008.05.23 19:19:00 - [118] Anyone tested smartboms on bo's? Do you get the 30s delay or can you active smarts after you uncloak?
Missuri	Posted - 2008.06.02 13:41:00 - [119] You get a 30s delay...
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2008.06.02 16:03:00 - [120] panther is excellent for bumping carriers - better than the machariel -.- - putting the gist back into logistics
Ephemeron Anti-BoB	Posted - 2008.06.02 17:03:00 - [121] I fly Dominix in PvP a lot, maybe lost 100 dominixes over last 4 years, probably got 700+ kills in Dominix over same period. I don't fly Sin yet, but I am confident in my understanding of game mechanics, I know how to get the most out of a ship like that. I don't care about the whole jump portal crap, I am fully focused on small scale combat. What I see is: Sin's extra mid slot is less useful than the lost low slot. I'd much rather have 5-7 mid/low slot layout like in Dominix. In the low slot, I can choose to put: more speed, more damage, better tank. What can I put in the extra mid slot? I already have room for the essentials: MWD, web, scramble, cap injector. 2 slots left. Sensor booster - probably best choice, or 2x sensor damps or 2x tracking disruptor. Still, these mid slot choices aren't as good as the low slot choices. Sin's cloaking speed bonus is a major plus. It greatly increases survability of the ship when jumping into hostile camps. Even without the cloaking speed bonus, any ship with MWD+cloak has a decent chance of escaping gate camps. But gate camp with dictors on both sides of the gate make such escapes very difficult. Sin's cloaking speed bonus will pretty much cancel the gate camper's dictor advantage - because it can quickly MWD cloaked back to gate or out of the bubble before hitting warp. The extra utlity high slot is kind of useful for medium energy neutralizer - can't fit extra heavy neut with Sin's grid. Overall it's not that big of an advantage over the Domi. The domi has extra rig slot, which is at least as useful as extra utlity high slot, if not more. Sin can have only 4 guns, while domi (with cloak) can have 5. This is another plus for the domi. The extra gun is more important than extra high slot on some of the better PvP setups. From purely combat perspective, I see Dominix as being a little better at tank+gank PvP, while Sin is a little weaker but with much better chances of escaping gate camps. As far as prices go, Sin is not worth 500 mil. Of course, no t2 bs price is worth it in PvP. Sin is a fun toy to play around with, when you get tired of flying the same t1 bs all the time. But it can't replace the domi as superior combat ship. Maybe that's just as the devs wanted. Honestly I'd prefer if Sin was superior to the domi, not too much, but enough to notice. I believe the 500 mil price difference is enough for a balancing factor in PvP. Costs do matter.
Jordan Musgrat Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2008.06.02 17:19:00 - [122] I won't read the whole thred, but allowing blockade runners the role of refueling bobs is a very, very good idea. I had planned on takine a crane along if Black Ops every got fixed, but allowing them to jump along is a very, very good idea. ----------- Primary is family values, secondary is 0.0...
Grapillon	Posted - 2008.06.04 06:45:00 - [123] Originally by: Skeltek Edited by: Skeltek on 20/05/2008 06:48:50 Edited by: Skeltek on 20/05/2008 06:47:39 Usual a post like mine now DROWNS in the sheer flood of others. But I`d like to say that I like the Black Ops like they are now. Most people do not seem to realize, that the Black Ops ship tanks are made weaker than their t1 counterparts. In my opinion, if they would finaly HALVE the tank, people might start realizing, that these ships were never meant for regular combat. The ability of the Widow for example to jamm up to 80km range was always regarded by me as a last resort so it can defend itself at least a small bit in emergencies. for me the main functions are still: -stationary cloaking -ability to let the gang do 3 jumps using the portal instead of using Jumpgates(thus evading an enemy Scout, gang and backward scout or jumping into the system the enmy gang is located in, without their forward scout seeing you) -enough fuel to override two times 4 Jumpgates and back(saving the gang 16LY=aprox 16 jumpgates) -mobile resupply/repair/supportstation -high agility while flying cloaked(the only thing I might consider improving; maybe double the cloaked velocity bonus?) kind regards, Skeltek ps: this reminds me on the Logistic Cruiser whines back in the early days. people started using them lately, after they got additional bonuses on CPU and powergrid. In the end, they still use the same fitting I used before the bonuses were introduced. But of course, nowdays Titans are also regarded TOTALY USELESS by everybody since the Doomsday was nerfed. Somebody must have too much iskies. Mate sincerly fly an armageddon.
Ramius Decimus Caldari House Draconis Landsraad Ascendant Merchant Empire	Posted - 2008.07.06 07:41:00 - [124] Edited by: Ramius Decimus on 06/07/2008 07:42:36 My god, does no one read the ship's description? Black Ops aren't designed for combat. Why would they be if there are already viable combat battleships available? Originally by: Widow Description Role: Black Ops Black Ops battleships are designed for infiltration and espionage behind enemy lines. With the use of a short-range jump drive and a portal generator, they are capable of making a special type of jump portal usable only by covert ops vessels. This enables them to stealthily plant reconnaissance and espionage forces in enemy territory. For the final word in clandestine maneuvers, look no further. That's right, it's primary role is espionage. For those unfamiliar with that term, it means spying. Gathering information. This ship is pretty good for that role, although has fuel capacity restrictions and the shitty fact you can't warp while cloaked with it make a slightly more risky ship to fly (considering the pricetag), however is ideal for team functions. If you can bypass gates you surely know are camped with a tight inty screen (which could no doubt bump a cov ops frig), than it serves it's purpose of getting comrades in to nose around. Black Ops battleships serve a purpose, however you need to be real flexible in it's design to make it effective in that role. One way or another, it's a support ship (not a frontliner). It's concept is tailored to the bigger picture. Likewise, there's no way I could deny it needs a little work. As long as we don't give up on it, CCP should make improvements on it (like cov ops cloak). We just gotta keep pushing. Afterall, the customer is always right... _______________________________________________ "Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum"
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.07.06 13:24:00 - [125] Originally by: Ramius Decimus That's right, it's primary role is espionage. For those unfamiliar with that term, it means spying. Gathering information. This ship is pretty good for that role, although has fuel capacity restrictions and the shitty fact you can't warp while cloaked with it make a slightly more risky ship to fly (considering the pricetag), however is ideal for team functions. If you can bypass gates you surely know are camped with a tight inty screen (which could no doubt bump a cov ops frig), than it serves it's purpose of getting comrades in to nose around. How do you propose to jump it past when it needs a covert cyno, and so a covert ops frigate already having made it past the camp, to jump to? Your post makes no sense. Might as well, assuming you already have a covops past the camp, just use that for scouting and leave the BOBS docked.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.07.07 06:22:00 - [126] Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 07/07/2008 06:24:10 Originally by: Ramius Decimus Edited by: Ramius Decimus on 06/07/2008 07:42:36 My god, does no one read the ship's description? Black Ops aren't designed for combat. Why would they be if there are already viable combat battleships available? Originally by: Widow Description Role: Black Ops Black Ops battleships are designed for infiltration and espionage behind enemy lines. With the use of a short-range jump drive and a portal generator, they are capable of making a special type of jump portal usable only by covert ops vessels. This enables them to stealthily plant reconnaissance and espionage forces in enemy territory. For the final word in clandestine maneuvers, look no further. That's right, it's primary role is espionage. For those unfamiliar with that term, it means spying. Gathering information. This ship is pretty good for that role, although has fuel capacity restrictions and the shitty fact you can't warp while cloaked with it make a slightly more risky ship to fly (considering the pricetag), however is ideal for team functions. If you can bypass gates you surely know are camped with a tight inty screen (which could no doubt bump a cov ops frig), than it serves it's purpose of getting comrades in to nose around. Black Ops battleships serve a purpose, however you need to be real flexible in it's design to make it effective in that role. One way or another, it's a support ship (not a frontliner). It's concept is tailored to the bigger picture. Likewise, there's no way I could deny it needs a little work. As long as we don't give up on it, CCP should make improvements on it (like cov ops cloak). We just gotta keep pushing. Afterall, the customer is always right... Nothing a covert ops can't do better ... I mean you cannot warp cloaked in a BO so everybody on the grid sees you comming or you have to jump off-grid and crawl to your place. And you need a covert cyno in place to use the jump capabilities. I can see some use for the Sin, as it can assign drones to gang mates and provide covert logistics in a limited way, but the others are quite pointless (ok Widow is a Scorp on steroids but is till too expensive to be used like one). fuel usage and covops cloak would be a good start :-) tho I think covops cloak would make them a bit OP as gank boats in the current cloak mechanics. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.07.07 06:59:00 - [127] Originally by: Ramius Decimus Edited by: Ramius Decimus on 06/07/2008 07:42:36 My god, does no one read the ship's description? Black Ops aren't designed for combat. Why would they be if there are already viable combat battleships available? Originally by: Widow Description Role: Black Ops Black Ops battleships are designed for infiltration and espionage behind enemy lines. With the use of a short-range jump drive and a portal generator, they are capable of making a special type of jump portal usable only by covert ops vessels. This enables them to stealthily plant reconnaissance and espionage forces in enemy territory. For the final word in clandestine maneuvers, look no further. That's right, it's primary role is espionage. For those unfamiliar with that term, it means spying. Gathering information. This ship is pretty good for that role, although has fuel capacity restrictions and the shitty fact you can't warp while cloaked with it make a slightly more risky ship to fly (considering the pricetag), however is ideal for team functions. If you can bypass gates you surely know are camped with a tight inty screen (which could no doubt bump a cov ops frig), than it serves it's purpose of getting comrades in to nose around. Black Ops battleships serve a purpose, however you need to be real flexible in it's design to make it effective in that role. One way or another, it's a support ship (not a frontliner). It's concept is tailored to the bigger picture. Likewise, there's no way I could deny it needs a little work. As long as we don't give up on it, CCP should make improvements on it (like cov ops cloak). We just gotta keep pushing. Afterall, the customer is always right... The role of a Espionage BS is obsolete. A Cov Ops frig is far superior and can also warp cloaked, thus be able to set up warpin sports for driveby's on weak sections of bigger forces etc, and it can act as a scout moving ahead. Go on, tell us how we should fly a redeemer. Tell us what James Bond style work it is meant to do? The problem with black ops is the fundamental role issue. Its like assault frigs - Obsolete in today's pvp enviroment. Solution starts with a role. If you want a Espionage BS, then tell us how i should operate first and its role. Then people can worry about its stats/slots etc. -- Billion Isk Mission
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.07.07 08:59:00 - [128] /signed I'll have the skills for a Widow on the way to getting a carrier, but right now I can't see any reason to bother getting one. While they might not be so amazing in 0.0, I can definitely see some potential as a pirate, but... 1) Insane fuel use = can't jump a worthwhile support fleet. The black ops itself may not be the best combat ship ever, but if I could bridge in a couple Falcons and Rapiers with some stealth bombers for dps, it would be worth it. 2) Painfully slow lock times, AND you get the scan resolution hit from the cloak. On the Widow, it's even worse, since you have to lock more than just a single target. All that ECM is pretty useless if it takes 15-30 seconds to get it on the target. And if I try and fix it by fitting a couple sensor boosters, I lose too much ECM power. 3) Lack of covert ops cloak = forget about stealth. We've been over this with "stealth" bombers, the only way to make a cloaking ship effective in combat is with the covert ops cloak. As it is, I doubt I'd even bother putting a cloak on the ship. So yeah, I can't really see any reason to fly one of these over my Falcon until they get a major boost.
Adaera	Posted - 2008.07.07 23:38:00 - [129] I'm bumping this - even as a new player, with fairly limited knowledge, I can see just how fun and useful this ship would be with a few well placed buffs. Hell, I'd love flying along with a raid into 0.0 spearheaded by black ops - portal us in, portal us out, no trace. Really hope it gets fixed.
El Yatta Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.07.08 11:59:00 - [130] Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Ramius Decimus Edited by: Ramius Decimus on 06/07/2008 07:42:36 My god, does no one read the ship's description? Black Ops aren't designed for combat. Why would they be if there are already viable combat battleships available? Originally by: Widow Description Role: Black Ops Black Ops battleships are designed for infiltration and espionage behind enemy lines. With the use of a short-range jump drive and a portal generator, they are capable of making a special type of jump portal usable only by covert ops vessels. This enables them to stealthily plant reconnaissance and espionage forces in enemy territory. For the final word in clandestine maneuvers, look no further. That's right, it's primary role is espionage. For those unfamiliar with that term, it means spying. Gathering information. This ship is pretty good for that role, although has fuel capacity restrictions and the shitty fact you can't warp while cloaked with it make a slightly more risky ship to fly (considering the pricetag), however is ideal for team functions. If you can bypass gates you surely know are camped with a tight inty screen (which could no doubt bump a cov ops frig), than it serves it's purpose of getting comrades in to nose around. Black Ops battleships serve a purpose, however you need to be real flexible in it's design to make it effective in that role. One way or another, it's a support ship (not a frontliner). It's concept is tailored to the bigger picture. Likewise, there's no way I could deny it needs a little work. As long as we don't give up on it, CCP should make improvements on it (like cov ops cloak). We just gotta keep pushing. Afterall, the customer is always right... The role of a Espionage BS is obsolete. A Cov Ops frig is far superior and can also warp cloaked, thus be able to set up warpin sports for driveby's on weak sections of bigger forces etc, and it can act as a scout moving ahead. Go on, tell us how we should fly a redeemer. Tell us what James Bond style work it is meant to do? The problem with black ops is the fundamental role issue. Its like assault frigs - Obsolete in today's pvp enviroment. Solution starts with a role. If you want a Espionage BS, then tell us how i should operate first and its role. Then people can worry about its stats/slots etc. You're still pushing this line? I've given you an example of their role before. Why dont you ever actually acknowledge that? Before you start, no, I dont agree with the guy above that they're into "espionage". Thats obviously a terrible role for a slow bs that cant warp cloaked. The role is to do DAMAGE in a cloaker-only gang, and use its jump drive and portal to put that dps and gang into places it otherwise could not get, adding the element of surprise. There is no other ship or class of ship that can accomplish this. Yes, as I have said, before, they are gimped in this role and need a boost to the key points of this - ability to operate with a cloak fitted (scan res and speed) and ability to use the jumpportal (fuel bay, fuel use, range). They have quite a good DPS already, actually. _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces
Sweet Rosella	Posted - 2008.07.08 12:15:00 - [131] think I would rather fly a manticore, but they have been nerfed latly <img src="http://sigs.griefwatch.net/index.php?kb=spydr&name=Sweet+Rosella&template=red">
R3dSh1ft Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.07.08 15:02:00 - [132] Please make them better :'( DKOD - an awesome synchronised killing machine
Dirtee Girl Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.07.09 01:43:00 - [133] the sin i own sits in my hangar most of the time tbh i would rather pvp in a domi or a hyperion . in the end what does it do ? gank - not really mega and hypes can gank tank - not really sneak around cloaked - sorta but not in a meaningfull way jump bridge - not any ship with teeth espionage - what is there to spy on that a cov-ops frig cant do in it's off time i mean it's not that hard to sneak a cov ops frig behind enemy lines and leave him there . it's like a whole line of ships that are just tech 2 typhoons they can do a little of everything but nothing well . * *
Zamir Falconi Point-Zero R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.07.13 11:44:00 - [134] I have reserved my Blackops to safe spots. They are instant primary in any engagement. They have almost no effect on the battlefield that could not be fulfilled by 5 recons at less cost. So the BO for me has reverted to staying hidden and just supporting the recons. A tool but so crippled by the logisitics it is almost impossible to use. Take my damage bonuses and give me a LY per level or cargo cap for level. anything to increase the viability of the ship.
rgreat Gallente OEG Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.13 14:43:00 - [135] Yeah, tried Sin. It just not really better compared to simple ishtar. Little better tank, much slower, nearly the same damage, very bad scan resolution. With it price and tendency to be a primary targer - Sin is worthless. I bet other black ops are the same. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Adaera	Posted - 2008.07.14 11:41:00 - [136] Erm, got a couple of ideas for giving this ship a role. What it's meant to do: covert espionage, and infiltration of a system. Ideas on helping it accomplish this: Oh, and it goes without saying but; fix the current crippling problems. 1. Boosting the espionage/spying part. For this I thought maybe some ability to intercept (view) private/fleet/corp chats within a system, but not sure about that one - especially as a lot will be using stuff like ventrilo anyway. But the other idea on this is mounting a module like this: Scan pulse projector High/mid slot? X power grid massive CPU usage This highly advanced unit allows the ship to send out a multifrequency scan across a wide area, with far greater precision than ordinary scanners. 99% reduction in CPU usage when fitted to black ops vessels In effect, this module acts like scan probes do - it lets them locate and warp to ships out in safespots/wherever else. Not sure what kind of range it would have. Maybe it could also make the ships location appear on the solar system map? Adding a module like this would allow the black ops ship to function as a sort of command ship to a covert fleet, precisely locating enemy ships and directing other ships to them without cumbersome methods like probing. 2. Boosting the stealth part. The idea I had here was fitting some module or whatever that gives the ship the ability to hide itself and the gang on local chat, as well as letting it fit a covert ops cloak. This would let the black ops ship portal a small force in, and hide them from even local channel. This is powerful, but it's justified by the formiddable cost of this ship, in my opinion. If this was implemented, a covert ops force would go from "sneaky" to absolutely invisible, and would allow the force to scout about and even make surprise attacks without the enemy even knowing they're there. Now, all this stuff could be mixed and matched, but I think it would certainly give them a role, and allow for gangs arranged around a black ops battleship at the heart of it.
rgreat Gallente OEG Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.14 12:27:00 - [137] Edited by: rgreat on 14/07/2008 12:33:19 Black ops must use covert ops cloak. And even that will not make it too popular. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
dichroic	Posted - 2008.07.14 22:34:00 - [138] Edited by: dichroic on 14/07/2008 22:35:10 needs more jump range Also the idea of warping cloaked is kinda kewl but i dont think it will help the class much if there is no other changes made, like i say it needs to be able to portal and jump further than 4ly, either the base rate should be increased or 1 of the usless combat bonus on the ship could be swaped out for a 25% increase in jump range. Only downside to that i can forsee is u spawn a covert hauler, a seprate bay for jump fule and a limited (but not to small for ammo+cap boosters etc) cargo bay would solve that tho
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2008.07.15 08:31:00 - [139] To bad i didnt read this post before i bought my redeemer.. as someone of bob said make it an hauler.. cargo expanders.. on it and its a safe way to transport goods from empire to low sec to get it to your carrier.. ill read the rest of these posts.. www.garia.net
MirrorGod Heretic Militia	Posted - 2008.07.16 00:15:00 - [140] Originally by: Amarr Holymight A cov-ops ship that doesn't have cov-ops abilities seems like a major fail. I like the blockade runner idea. This. Recruitment: [ANTI]
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2008.07.16 10:56:00 - [141] Any dev who is will to tell they will look in to it, or tell us this is how it is intended so we can move along.. please.. would be nice to know if the devs agree or not agree.. www.garia.net
ddred	Posted - 2008.07.25 14:46:00 - [142] Edited by: ddred on 25/07/2008 14:49:33 My ideal widow. You could also replace the missile velocity bonus with the ate of fire bonus. But with the velocity bonus you would reach up to 270KM range with cruise missiles. Note i also changed the developer for the roleplayers ;) Hull: Scorpion Class Role: Black Ops Black Ops battleships are designed for infiltration and espionage behind enemy lines. With the use of a short-range jump drive and a portal generator, they are capable of making a special type of jump portal usable only by covert ops vessels. This enables them to stealthily plant reconnaissance and espionage forces in enemy territory. For the final word in clandestine maneuvers, look no further. Developer: Ishukone Most of the recent designs off their assembly line have provided for a combination that the Ishukone name is becoming known for: great long-range capabilities and shield systems unmatched anywhere else.. Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity per level and 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal range per level Black Ops Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to ECM target jammer strength and -96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level Note: can fit covert cynosural field generators and covert jump portal generators. No targeting delay after decloaking
Osiris Occido The Nightshift	Posted - 2008.07.29 20:56:00 - [143] Need some assistance. Once I open the bridge to the covert cyno, how do people use the bridge -------------- Perfect Quality with Windows Movie Maker
Osiris Occido The Nightshift	Posted - 2008.07.29 22:38:00 - [144] Originally by: Osiris Occido Need some assistance. Once I open the bridge to the covert cyno, how do people use the bridge I figured it out. have to right-click the black op ship itself and choose Jump To (system name) -------------- Perfect Quality with Windows Movie Maker
Al0ne Black Fury	Posted - 2008.08.02 08:28:00 - [145] BLAH wish i read this before splashing a load of isks out on a sin the ship is a joke , undocked it twice to check my setup and havnt used it since , cargobay is to small to put everything in , and you cant even warp cloaked sigh is anything being done to this ship?
Etienne Merten	Posted - 2008.08.02 21:32:00 - [146] OMG. I've done it again. I read a dev blog about a new ship type. I spend months training up for it. I get the skills and go buy my shiny new Widow. First thing I fit on a Covert BS? A Covert Ops Cloak! DENIED! Wtf? I'm sorry. I had to read this entire thread, just to be sure someone hadn't just been screwing with me. Why the hell would I take this out of the station if it can't be stealthy while flying around? It's like a spy with a "I'm a spy!" flashing neon on his forehead...they see you warp in...oops...shhh, Clouseau is back! I like the these requests, in order of priority: Covert Ops Cloak - or this class is dead Longer jump rage - something halfway between current and Cap Ship range Fix the fuel/cargo problem - I like the "let the ones jumping carry their own damned fuel!" approach Expand the bubble to 10km - so a covert fleet can at least TRY not to bump each other while getting ready to jump! CCP - Don't make me wait any more, after all the training, ISK and anticipation I put into this useless hanger-decoration!!!!!!!!! A happy Boffin...
Javelin6	Posted - 2008.08.23 00:06:00 - [147] /signed for adding a Fuel Bay and making cov-ops bring their own fuel. Allowing covert cynos into cyno jammed systems would be nice to. As far as letting it use the covert-ops cloak, its my personal opinion that it would be unbalanced. However I offer it can be balanced by making the covert-ops cloak to be able to be probed out when fitted to a BO-BS. Standard cloaks would continue to be un-probable. This will force pilots to have to choose whether or not absolute stealth or stealthy mobility is more desired when fitting the ship.
Onionico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.08.24 07:22:00 - [148] Originally by: R3dSh1ft Please make them better :'(
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.08.24 09:33:00 - [149] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 24/08/2008 09:33:08 Besides the general problems (lack of covops cloak, fuel/jump range issues), it really seems like these ships were designed with some dice and a dartboard. The designes just feel really random and incomplete: Sin: ok, so it's a T2 Dominix. We'll just ignore the fact that thanks to the completely stupid tier system it has to be a Dominix instead of a Hyperion or Megathron (the Dominix should be the marauder). Ok, so it's a T2 Dominix with grid problems, but other than that, it looks fine. Until we get to the WTF AGILITY BONUS. This HAS to be a dartboard bonus, I can't think of any reason to make the ship, get 95% of it finished, and just add a completely random and useless bonus that has nothing to do with the rest of the ship. Redeemer: actually, this is probably the best and most consistent design. 3x gun bonuses, the maximum possible 6x guns, keeps the 125m3 drones of the Armageddon. For a ship that's meant to add damage to recon gangs, it's pretty much perfect. Panther: sure, the bonuses are fine, pre-nano-nerf. With BS speeds getting nerfed heavily, speed fitting this ship is going to be pretty useless. And WTF is with the 5x gun slots? As if projectiles weren't bad enough, now it gets fewer weapon slots than the Redeemer? Widow: ok, long post time. As a Caldari pilot, this is the one I'm most familiar with. So, what is the Widow's problem? It has two completely contradictory ideas. The missile ROF/velocity bonuses and short locking range pretty strongly hint at a torp gank fit, but that means ignoring the ECM bonus to fit a (somewhat underwhelming) tank and the required painter. Oh, and WTF at 5x launcher slots? The ECM bonus says the obvious, but that means ignoring the missile bonuses. And without the required range bonus or any kind of tank, the Widow is a very expensive suicide ship. At close range with only base HP for a "tank", the Widow will die almost instantly the moment it fails a jam cycle. The result: terrible ECM ship that's inferior in every way to the Falcons it will be jumping in. What about a mix of both? Forget it. Torps require damage mods and a painter, which means few mids free for ECM and no SDAs to make it effective. Try it and you'll just get the worst of both worlds, a ship with mediocre damage, mediocre ewar, and a paper-thin "tank" that won't even last long enough for you to warp out if you fail a jam cycle with that mediocre ewar. What about cruise missiles? Forget it. Damage becomes laughable, the short base lock range means you have to give up some of your valuable mids, and you can't even use your ECM at effective cruise missile range. It's pretty much worse than the Redeemer in every way at the long-range support role. Even ignoring all that for a moment, the design isn't even a good one. It just has complete anti-synergy with the ships it's supposed to work with. What are Caldari recons best at? Jamming from long range. What are they worst at? Doing damage from that long range. What does the Widow give you? More of the ECM you've already got plenty of, and none of the damage you need. And even if the torp fit was completely awesome, it would STILL have that anti-synergy. If I'm dropping a Caldari black ops + recons + bombers on a target, where am I going to put the cyno? A minimum of 150km from the target. What exactly is my Widow going to be doing from that range? Exactly nothing.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.08.24 09:42:00 - [150] So what to do with the poor Widow? Well, there are three options: 1) Focus on ECM. Put the range bonus and ewar strength bonus from the Scorpion back on the Caldari battleship skill, increase the base lock range so the Widow can actually jam at 150+ km, and move the missile velocity bonus to the black ops skill (so your token cruise missiles can actually hit something maybe). It's still kind of redundant next to Falcons, but at least it's decent enough at the ECM role to do it if you aren't jumping Falcons. 2) Focus on missiles. Give it the 6th missile slot, change the ECM bonus to shield resists (or something else useful with torps), add more base shield HP, and possibly more grid (in addition to the grid required for the 6th launcher). Short range still has huge anti-synergy with long range Caldari recons, but at least now it's a solid damage dealer. 3) Scrap the whole thing completely. Scrap the Widow, and scrap the tier system so it can become a T2 Rokh like it should be: Name: Widowmaker Hull: Rokh Class Role: Black Ops After the utter failure of the Widow, Caldari Navy Intelligence scrapped the few surviving hulls and re-opened the competition. The Widowmaker is the result: a fleet battleship capable of providing devastating firepower from the full range of its Falcon and Manticore escorts. Developer: Ishukone The Widowmaker is the ultimate expression of the Ishukone design philosophy: "range is the best tank". Including the best sub-capital shield systems in the known universe was just a nice bonus. Caldari Battleship skill bonus: 10% large hybrid turret optimal range and 5% shield resists per level. Black Ops skill bonus: 5% large hybrid damage per level and 96-100% CPU reduction for cloaking devices. Slot layout: 8 high, 6 mid, 5 low. 6 turrets, 0 launchers. 50m3 drone bay, 25m3 bandwidth. Now you have a ship with excellent synergy with Falcons and Manticores, nice damage, but more importantly, instant-hit nice damage that is effective over the full 100-250km range of the ships you'll be jumping in. Drop the cyno at 150km, jump in the black ops fleet, and everyone's right at their optimal and contributing to the fight right away. And hey, you can even fit a half-decent blaster setup if you really want that close-range ship. Yes, making this ship would require re-balancing the other black ops (not because it's overpowered compared to the rest of EVE, but a balanced ship vs. 3x sucky ones?), but they need it anyway.
Elderberry Whine	Posted - 2008.08.24 19:32:00 - [151] FACE IT! Any ship that uses the "Improved Cloaking Device" is, and will continue to be, an expensive, useless joke... Look how many times they buffed the bombers. No amount of buff will ever make these ships worthwhile because fundamentally, without a switch to true stealth (i.e. cloaked warp) they are too weak to survive. Icing on the cake is that they pre-nerfed their supposed "roles" into oblivion. Originally by: LadyShu I skilled towards blackops right after they were announced by ccp (also cloak 5 as it was a rumour that it would be required for Black Ops sigh) The role of this ship for clandestine operations behind enemy lines sounded perfect to me and my playstyle. I jumped into a panther when they were available on sisi and tried some fittings and tested the ship in general especially the jump drive stuff, i made suggestions in the gamedev forum and discussed with other possible blackop pilots, and in my opinion ccp failed again with a ship for a given role. Tons of testers mentioned that the jumpdrive fueluse is a joke... nothing happened. I got a pretty expensive panther on sisi today and really nothing changed :( - 4 ly jumprange may be enough on the paper... it should be enough to bypass some gatecamps etc, but the system layout of the most systems doesnt allow big jumps, and if so it needs like what? 800+ isotopes?! if you have enough fuel with you for 2 4ly jumps you cant carry much capboosters and very little ammo. - The Jumpbridge is a joke... you cant jump many recons, even if everyone brings in there own fuel, the jumpbridge only holds a few seconds and you really need to work with cans. - The Slot and Grid... Well you have 8 high slots. I tried (at least on the panther) 800er artillerys, 650er etc. doesnt really happen which ACs you fit (dont even think about fitting 1400ers artis...) you get troubles with at least 2 highslots... you need 5 guns, 1 cloak, 1x bridge generator.. impossible if you want a decent tank (if not fitted for speed)... This ship (panther) actually is a limited phoon which can move when cloaked, thats it. And since you cant warp cloaked everyone sees you coming. I dont demand a solo pwn mobil (the dps isnt high enough on this ship for this either...) but for the price of this ship, the very high skill requirements (i guess you can easy go for caps after this ^^) and the limited use its just a waste of isk. My suggestions would be: - more cargospace (more fuel?) or - possibility of warp cloaked (make cov op cloak available to black ops its atm a bs sized recon after all...) or - let them jump 8ly instead 4ly, then people could live with the limitations. I cant see a future for Black Ops if the stay like they are :/ The idea was pretty good and the solo combat functionality is great in blackops, but it really lacks some bonuses for its intended role. sorry for my poor english
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.24 20:50:00 - [152] Just please fix blackops. I dont know what you should do with them, but useless ships. Enough said. Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.08.25 00:55:00 - [153] Considering the cost of the Black Ops BS you'd be stark raving mad to put in the line of fire. Its jump portal capability is ok'ish - we actually used on TQ to move a recon / sb and cov ops, but then hilariously enough we had to fly the recon back to get more fuel, to jump the B Ops out. It was simply quicker, easier and less costly to move the covert ships through the gates. Plus the B Ops pilot was flapping about hanging around in his expensive ship. iirc the devs have said these ships came out 'pre nerfed', I think 'unuseable' might have been a better description in this case. C. Originally by: Tarminic Your continued whining is somewhat diminished by your continued willingness to give your money to CCP.
Sral TBear Mark Of Chaos	Posted - 2008.08.25 04:02:00 - [154] Just do it like the other "secret" flyoung pixels. 1 Logistic black ops (long jump range 6 ly would be enough) Bonusses towards fuel, portal / cyno operation etc (large cargo or fuel bay) 1 combat black ops (short jump range keep it 4 LY Bonusses towards combat modules (nu fuel bay, keep it as they are now short range combat ships) Cant fit jump portal no bonus to cyno if fittet This way you need a pair to be 100% effective Give the black ops its brother like the rest have, 1 logistic black ops and 1 combat (with some limitations)
Githzheri	Posted - 2008.08.30 12:37:00 - [155] Originally by: Ramius Decimus Edited by: Ramius Decimus on 06/07/2008 07:42:36 My god, does no one read the ship's description? Black Ops aren't designed for combat. Why would they be if there are already viable combat battleships available? Originally by: Widow Description Role: Black Ops Black Ops battleships are designed for infiltration and espionage behind enemy lines. With the use of a short-range jump drive and a portal generator, they are capable of making a special type of jump portal usable only by covert ops vessels. This enables them to stealthily plant reconnaissance and espionage forces in enemy territory. For the final word in clandestine maneuvers, look no further. That's right, it's primary role is espionage. For those unfamiliar with that term, it means spying. Gathering information. This ship is pretty good for that role, although has fuel capacity restrictions and the shitty fact you can't warp while cloaked with it make a slightly more risky ship to fly (considering the pricetag), however is ideal for team functions. If you can bypass gates you surely know are camped with a tight inty screen (which could no doubt bump a cov ops frig), than it serves it's purpose of getting comrades in to nose around. Black Ops battleships serve a purpose, however you need to be real flexible in it's design to make it effective in that role. One way or another, it's a support ship (not a frontliner). It's concept is tailored to the bigger picture. Likewise, there's no way I could deny it needs a little work. As long as we don't give up on it, CCP should make improvements on it (like cov ops cloak). We just gotta keep pushing. Afterall, the customer is always right... The biggest problem I have in what you and alot of people are saying and the way the black ops are desiged, is this. You talk about how they are designed to get past gate camps ect, however you have to get a ship past that gate camp in order to allow the black ops to jump bridge past it. That to me is beyond pointless. Why have a ship that can jump but require a cyno field to jump to. If you are facing a good solid gate camp as a cov ops or recon ship, you still have a good chance at getting caught and poped. So then you have no way past that gate camp unless you have another ship around with a cyno generator on it. Remove the need for a cyno field to lock on to in order to jump, and I'd be alot happier with the ship. Currently, its useless.
Lopin Acheteur Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.08.30 13:38:00 - [156] It's a fine fine line between useless and overpowered when it comes to ships that can use cloaks unfortunately. The ship was never a good idea to introduce as there is no role for it to fit in. Either it is useless or overpowered, I can't think of anyway to make it balanced. (cov ops cloak would be hugely imbalanced, as cov-ops ships are not supposed to be able to do good DPS). Fuel usage is about the only thing you could look at without making them really overpowered, getting around using less wouldn't be so bad, provided you could still only go out with a handful of max range jumps of fuel onboard (3-4).
Amy Wang	Posted - 2008.08.30 16:17:00 - [157] how to make black ops worthwhile: - allow covert cynos to be established in cyno jammed systems - reduce covert jump bridge fuel consumption by 80-90% (or give black ops a separate fuel bay for isotopes roughly 5-10 times the size of its current cargo bay - increase black ops jump distance and covert jump bridge operational distance by 50-100% (for a range of 6 to 8 ly with jump cal lvl 4) - remove sig resolution penalty from fitting cloak (dont allow covert ops cloak tho) - convert agility/speed bonus of sin/panther to something more useful
Kalintos Tyl Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.31 10:36:00 - [158] widow load fof slowboat to falcon uncloack turn on fof. Laught :P
Albaluna74	Posted - 2008.09.01 10:21:00 - [159] I'd like to propose a simple and easy way to boost BO and SB. Cloaking devices: Normal T1&T2 cloak: add a targeting range æmalusÆ and adjust scan res æmalusÆ to be inline with WCS (T1 & T2). Covertop cloak: as it is now Ships: BO and SB no penality to fit normal cloak (no targeting delay/scan res penality/targetting range penality), no covertop cloak, no warp cloaked. Recons & covertop: covertop cloak (no malus and ability to warp cloaked) All the other ships: can fit normal cloak, but they suffer full penalties due to the fact that they arent designed to be cloakable. In this way i can see a small reason to fly a BO over a normal BS.
Dirtee Girl Omega Enterprises	Posted - 2008.09.02 09:17:00 - [160] Originally by: Kalintos Tyl widow load fof slowboat to falcon uncloack turn on fof. Laught :P falcon warps out because you forgot scramble get laughed at :p
Evelgrivion Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.02 09:47:00 - [161] The panther would be great if it had a 2000 meter fuel bay and an 8 light year jump range. Just my opinion.
cianide pro	Posted - 2008.09.03 06:01:00 - [162] Originally by: Dirtee Girl Originally by: Kalintos Tyl widow load fof slowboat to falcon uncloack turn on fof. Laught :P falcon warps out because you forgot scramble get laughed at :p Even if you got a scramble, due the locktime penalty from the cloak and because it's a bs the falcon pilot can make a coffee and then warp off before you have a lock on it. This fact is one of the mayor problems I see, the scan resolution penalty from cloak. Then another point that I see as ridiculous is the 30 seconds before you can cloak again, this should be changed as you fly a 700 mill ship with lower stats as the t1 variant so its should be possible to hide again when ever you want. Fuel use, fuel bay and range is the third point where ccp should be looking at to adjust.
EmperorPirk	Posted - 2008.09.03 22:10:00 - [163] what if we removed some of the high slots and/or weapon slots and added more to mids and lows, then added massive Ewar bonuses to each ship and something or other. making sure that you and your recon pilots stay alive long enough to tell the tale. give Black Ops thier Racial recon bonuses, but even better and stronger ones. the stealh bombers can deal out the DPS for you. it's just an idea thou. might be good, might be bad. will need some tinkering anyways. Pirk
Car Wars Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.03 22:43:00 - [164] Originally by: EmperorPirk what if we removed some of the high slots and/or weapon slots and added more to mids and lows, then added massive Ewar bonuses to each ship and something or other. making sure that you and your recon pilots stay alive long enough to tell the tale. give Black Ops thier Racial recon bonuses, but even better and stronger ones. the stealh bombers can deal out the DPS for you. it's just an idea thou. might be good, might be bad. will need some tinkering anyways. Pirk basically make them big recons with added firepower. Only the widow is inline with this. Agility boost for gallente? come on, which dev on drugs came up with that?
Vigaz	Posted - 2008.09.04 10:37:00 - [165] Originally by: Car Wars basically make them big recons with added firepower. Only the widow is inline with this. Agility boost for gallente? come on, which dev on drugs came up with that? Domi has drone bonus per Gallente BS level Scorpion has ecm bonus (strenght and range) per caldari BS level. SIN has drone bonus per gallente BS level and agility bonus per BO level (I agree, not really usefull bonus) Widow has ROF bonus per caldari BS level (Is it a Raven? no!) and ONLY ECM strengh bonus per BO level (where is range bonus of the tier1?) BO skill is rank 14, if u dont have BO @ lvl5 scorpion is a better jammer ship than Widow. Scorpion is alrdy a ewar ship but without DPS, Domi has alrdy DPS but no Ewar capabilities, if all BO should be big recons, I think they should have the BO bonus to compensate their differences. I suggest to switch bonus for Widow: ecm (but also range!!!!) from caldari BS lvl and ROF from BO. Sin should change BO bonus from agility to Gallente ewar, it's sounds fair to me, the same for Amarr and Minmitar.
Car Wars Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.04 11:12:00 - [166] dude...your face anyways, dont think the range bonus is that big an issue for the widow if you want to solo, you need to be close anyways. For gang support a falcon would be better. But yeah, better bonusses and a fuel bay would help this ship. Futher there is not 0.0 entry point where it has the range to jump over the low-sec to 0.0 gap. Would be nice to be able to jump behind a camp to attack from behind.
Etienne Merten	Posted - 2008.09.07 07:50:00 - [167] So here we are...months later and after a content upgrade, with a whole class of new ships worthless hangar decorations, and we have yet to hear a single peep from the Devs on fixing it? Or even, why they won't? What the heck is going on? Please, PLEASE! Fix the Black Ops and do it soon!
EntroX Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.08 08:42:00 - [168] Edited by: EntroX on 08/09/2008 08:42:52 Originally by: Etienne Merten So here we are...months later and after a content upgrade, with a whole class of new ships worthless hangar decorations, and we have yet to hear a single peep from the Devs on fixing it? Or even, why they won't? What the heck is going on? Please, PLEASE! Fix the Black Ops and do it soon! Maybe you want to take a look at this: Linkage If the link doesn't take you to the right spot (for some odd reason it wont work on FF3) scroll down until the 5th post. Also, don't forget to notice the fact that it was posted almost 2 months ago
cianide pro	Posted - 2008.09.09 05:37:00 - [169] Originally by: EntroX Edited by: EntroX on 08/09/2008 08:42:52 Originally by: Etienne Merten So here we are...months later and after a content upgrade, with a whole class of new ships worthless hangar decorations, and we have yet to hear a single peep from the Devs on fixing it? Or even, why they won't? What the heck is going on? Please, PLEASE! Fix the Black Ops and do it soon! Maybe you want to take a look at this: Linkage If the link doesn't take you to the right spot (for some odd reason it wont work on FF3) scroll down until the 5th post. Also, don't forget to notice the fact that it was posted almost 2 months ago The fuel/cargo space is just one of the points but no reaction on the ohters.
Etienne Merten	Posted - 2008.10.04 07:32:00 - [170] Almost two months ago (now three) and still no changes, and not even comments on the Covert Ops Cloak or the scan res issue. My widow is still a useless hangar decoration that I can't sell and have absolutely no reason to take out of the hangar. Depressing to say the least.
Dirtee Girl Omega Enterprises 0mega Factor	Posted - 2008.10.04 23:34:00 - [171] Edited by: Dirtee Girl on 04/10/2008 23:52:29 Edited by: Dirtee Girl on 04/10/2008 23:34:49 0004 Black Ops Improvements Noah (CCP) indicated that CCP was aware that battleships with jumpdrives would become the ultimate ship, and to this end Black Ops ships were pre-nerfed. why introduce them period unless you had a clear vision of how it could be applied Andrew (CSM Jade Constantine) noted that the range of the drive and the presence of cynojammers made the jumpdrive capability virtually useless. Another problem is the limited amount of fuel that can be carried. Bane (CSM Bane Glorioius) added to this that due to the fuel taking up large amounts of cargo space, loot from successful operations often cannot be hauled back to friendly territory. Noah (CCP) commented that a Fuel Bay can be added, so that fuel no longer takes up cargo space, or that specialized haulers could perhaps be used to haul the loot back or bring in supplies. CCP will also look at the issue with cynojammers. Jump range might be looked into but is of a lower concern, otherwise Black Ops ships might become too competitive with capital ships. so to recap ccp would like a t2 battleship to remain a poor second cousin to it's t-1 couterpart . im sorry but if this is supposed to be a utility vessel then why is it armed ? if it's a combat ship why would someone pay 8x the money for a t-2 battle ship with half the combat potential ? also how exactly do black ops become competitive with capital ships? can we shoot pos's with them ? can they anhilate station services in record time ? do they have some insane spider tanking and fighter drone wielding ability no one has yet discovered ? can they tank lots of smaller ships while dishing out huge dps ? if anything this ship could lure pilot away from capitals to use their skills in a more productive way than just typical cap blobs . but to do that they need teeth or something truly unique the jump bridging has to be unlimited by ship type unless it's larger than a bs it also has to be cap based and not fuel based so if you want to bridge twenty ships it's either going to take alot of time or a pure cap rep guardian supporting it . now it has potential to be great ship lets be honest you can put a battleship in any system within jump range at a moments notice that battle ship can immediatly warp to target or warp to safe and cloak and wait for a target . the problems is once combat occurs this ship will fall apart . * *
TZeer Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.05 05:06:00 - [172] The black ops should be quite easy to boost... - Give the ship a seperate fuelbay - Take away the scan res penalty they get for fitting a cloak - Small increase in their jumprange 2 ly to 2,5 or 3 ly And finally let it be possible to put up a covert cyno in cynojammed systems. Another thing, taking away highslots would be a big nono. They already give subpar damage. The widow is probarbly the only BO that is ok in it`s current state. The others should maybe get some of the bonuses from their recons carried over to them. Sin could either get the damp bonus or the scram range bonus. Panther could get web bonus And Redeemer could either get a NOS amount, NOS range or a tracking disruptor bonus, think one of the NOS bonuses would be best. But I dont know what other people would like to have on their races BO.
Skeltek Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.10.05 15:34:00 - [173] Edited by: Skeltek on 05/10/2008 15:35:27 A Black Ops is no fighting ship as the thread opener assumed(too expensive for that anyway). Like everyone said about the Titans, that Clonevatbay and Jumpbridge suck and the only great thing about them is the Doomsday Device for remote-igniting, the Black Ops Jump Portal ability will get to be usefull one day. With Titans everyone also demanded a HP and insane closerange fighting increase when it got introduced. The Ship was a joke, since it was too expensive and would instantly die when utilized in close combat fighting with the main fleet. The Black Ops has more fuel than for just 2 jumps(cargo expanders) and even without, it is ideal, to stay at a POS and bring a flock of 10 Stealthbombers+Recons to the other side of the gate(just outside of Jumpgate Grid) and back, ready to do 56k raw damage on a fleet you are just to jump on and bubble. But I guess people that claim that a single one or two Stealthbombers just suck, will never understand the principle of stacking areal damage against large numbers(16m ISK for a small mini DD isnt that expensive either). The only problem is it doesnt pay off to let 8 people switch from BS to Manticores if the participating Fleetnumbers are too small(you just reduce your regular firepower too much). Just my thoughts here, never had enough Bomberpilots in my Corp to try it out yet anyway. regards, Skel
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.10.05 16:15:00 - [174] Originally by: TZeer And finally let it be possible to put up a covert cyno in cynojammed systems. I'm hoping you're including 'highsec' in 'cynojammed systems'. That would be quite handy too. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.06 03:26:00 - [175] Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: TZeer And finally let it be possible to put up a covert cyno in cynojammed systems. I'm hoping you're including 'highsec' in 'cynojammed systems'. That would be quite handy too. That's a completely ridiculous idea with no purpose. http://obeythekitten.com/
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2008.10.06 06:55:00 - [176] black ops are only useful in gangs and specific roles of 10 or more ships. EOS simple as that.
Dead Soldier Most Wanted INC	Posted - 2008.10.06 11:03:00 - [177] Edited by: Dead Soldier on 06/10/2008 11:03:00 Originally by: Devian 666 Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: TZeer And finally let it be possible to put up a covert cyno in cynojammed systems. I'm hoping you're including 'highsec' in 'cynojammed systems'. That would be quite handy too. That's a completely ridiculous idea with no purpose. It has if you want to avoid pirate gate camps.
Tirgal	Posted - 2008.10.06 21:39:00 - [178] Edited by: Tirgal on 06/10/2008 21:40:57 Yea, was looking for a new ship to get into. i love BS's and I have a corpmate that pilots a Buzzard and i love the fact that they can warp cloaked and can be super sneaky, after readin some stuff about Black Ops i was twitching in anticipation for one, being able to sneak around behind the bad peoples lines. opening jump bridges to get in more buddies to help poke people. after looking at them all most all of the reasons for wanting to fly one were boned from the start. Cant warp cloaked ( now honestly.... how long is a uncloked BS with inferior damage ganna last behind lines?) Cant warp in decent ships to help, far as i can tell they can only warp in Covert Op frigs? (not sure if this is true or not), cant be fit to take a half way decent hit. and to top it all off its biggest draw for me was the jump portal gen. and it cant even do that decently..... Wow greatest waste of server space I have ever seen. Imo they need to do a big overhaul of these or replace them with a new T2 BS class.
Waxau Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2008.10.09 11:09:00 - [179] CCP - Appreciate the fuel bay possibly being added to Black Ops. But please, dont take that as the fix. Its merely one step along a several step path. A fuel bay isnt going to make these ships useful on its own. They need some of the suggestions given here. And thats me in a 'balance' eye, rather than a 'boost me boost me!' way. A pirate buddy of mine brought a Sin to the fight the other day. And Teamspeak was filled with laughter. And his reply was 'What? I dont have a Domi anymore...' A fuel bay will not add anything of true value. It'll only make a crappy class 'slightly' more epeen friendly. It'll add nothing to the big picture of Eve. Please note the things we've all stated in this thread. For Eve's sake
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.13 03:15:00 - [180] Edited by: rgreat on 13/10/2008 03:24:43 Up. Black Ops must use Covert Ops Cloaking Device! Black Ops must use Covert Ops Cloaking Device! Black Ops must use Covert Ops Cloaking Device! Black Ops must use Covert Ops Cloaking Device! Black Ops must use Covert Ops Cloaking Device! Black Ops must use Covert Ops Cloaking Device! Black Ops must use Covert Ops Cloaking Device! As is Black Ops is worse if compared to a simple t1 battleship because problems with fittings. Not to mention it cost 10 times more. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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