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PvP? A game for billionairs?

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Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:23:00 - [1] I've mentioned that in several other threads, but I feel it was a bit of derailment there, so I'll make a new thread specifically for that discussion. This is not about speed or tank or gank or anything else. Many of those problems are just a symptoms of a larger problem this thread is dedicated to. That problem is that if we are talking about PvP, we are talking about stupid amounts of ISK. Now, I'm getting flamed with statements like "you can PvP from day one", "fit a tackler", "be a scout". Yes, you can do all of that, but I'm talking about an old char that is also happens to be a poor char. Is it possible to PvP effectively without those setups that cost hundreds of millions? Because when you look at alliance killboards, it's all littered with T2 staff with expensive rigs. Lose one, and you'll several hundreds of millions down. Speed s just a manifestation of that problem. In other threads ppl said that speed can be countered with some cheap modules and tactics, that is true (unless we are talking about pimped to hell ship). But what if the said not so rich pilot wants to go roaming himself? Is that a one way ticket nowadays? Or is blobbing the only thing that left for those without billions in the wallet? How CCP is going to make this game interesting again for those veteran pilots who also don't have immense ISK to play with pirate implants, polycarbs and faction gear?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:25:00 - [2] http://www.agony-unleashed.com You neigher need billions of isk or millions of SP. Wehave been teaching basic PvP for nearly 2 years with over 4000 graduates. All you need are about 150k sp and a tech 1 frigate. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Dirk Magnum FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:37:00 - [3] Originally by: Rells http://www.agony-unleashed.com You neigher need billions of isk or millions of SP. Wehave been teaching basic PvP for nearly 2 years with over 4000 graduates. All you need are about 150k sp and a tech 1 frigate. This is true, but the OP also needs to realize that a full T2 fit without rigs rarely costs more than 50 million isk at Empire prices. Depending on the overall swing of the economy that may fluctuate up to perhaps 75 million when fitting battleships, but not likely. 2-3 mil for each weapon + 2-3 mil for each mid + 2-3 mil for each low for a BC/BS, you know? And there are some things where the added price for T2 is hardly justified given the stats of the item. Take for example the second-to-best-named web vs. the T2 web. It's not a billionaire's game, in any event. Faction and officer modules, when being committed to a PvP ship, are most commonly used on capitals. Their 50 million+ isk per module price tag is fully justified when it's going towards protecting a multi-billion isk ship investement.
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:44:00 - [4] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Originally by: Rells http://www.agony-unleashed.com You neigher need billions of isk or millions of SP. Wehave been teaching basic PvP for nearly 2 years with over 4000 graduates. All you need are about 150k sp and a tech 1 frigate. This is true, but the OP also needs to realize that a full T2 fit without rigs rarely costs more than 50 million isk at Empire prices. Depending on the overall swing of the economy that may fluctuate up to perhaps 75 million when fitting battleships, but not likely. 2-3 mil for each weapon + 2-3 mil for each mid + 2-3 mil for each low for a BC/BS, you know? And there are some things where the added price for T2 is hardly justified given the stats of the item. Take for example the second-to-best-named web vs. the T2 web. It's not a billionaire's game, in any event. Faction and officer modules, when being committed to a PvP ship, are most commonly used on capitals. Their 50 million+ isk per module price tag is fully justified when it's going towards protecting a multi-billion isk ship investement. Yes, capital ships need good protection and officer modes are in place there. the question here is not capitals. In modern roaming warfare, it's very expensive setups that I see. Let's be honest, now roaming means speed or blobs. Blobs are not fun, we are left with speed. Speed setups are around 200 mill, so, if you have 1 bill, that means you have ISK to lose just 5 ships (that is if you don't buy anything else). Someone told me once that for roaming 300 mill HAC is a cheap setup. Of course fleet setups are cheaper, and you can bring worse fitted ship into the roaming gang too. But doesn't that mean that you are relying on your very rich friends to do that job and not contributing much to the gang yourself?
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:46:00 - [5] Originally by: Estephania Originally by: Dirk Magnum Originally by: Rells http://www.agony-unleashed.com You neigher need billions of isk or millions of SP. Wehave been teaching basic PvP for nearly 2 years with over 4000 graduates. All you need are about 150k sp and a tech 1 frigate. This is true, but the OP also needs to realize that a full T2 fit without rigs rarely costs more than 50 million isk at Empire prices. Depending on the overall swing of the economy that may fluctuate up to perhaps 75 million when fitting battleships, but not likely. 2-3 mil for each weapon + 2-3 mil for each mid + 2-3 mil for each low for a BC/BS, you know? And there are some things where the added price for T2 is hardly justified given the stats of the item. Take for example the second-to-best-named web vs. the T2 web. It's not a billionaire's game, in any event. Faction and officer modules, when being committed to a PvP ship, are most commonly used on capitals. Their 50 million+ isk per module price tag is fully justified when it's going towards protecting a multi-billion isk ship investement. Yes, capital ships need good protection and officer modes are in place there. the question here is not capitals. In modern roaming warfare, it's very expensive setups that I see. Let's be honest, now roaming means speed or blobs. Blobs are not fun, we are left with speed. Speed setups are around 200 mill, so, if you have 1 bill, that means you have ISK to lose just 5 ships (that is if you don't buy anything else). Someone told me once that for roaming 300 mill HAC is a cheap setup. Of course fleet setups are cheaper, and you can bring worse fitted ship into the roaming gang too. But doesn't that mean that you are relying on your very rich friends to do that job and not contributing much to the gang yourself? 3 tech 1 rifters can kill a 200 mil set up rifter. Official fanboy of jenny< pink supporter! looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi
Dubious Drewski	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:51:00 - [6] Originally by: MotherMoon 3 tech 1 rifters can kill a 200 mil set up rifter. This is a very important point - one that needs repeating.
Riethe	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:52:00 - [7] Originally by: Dirk Magnum This is true, but the OP also needs to realize that a full T2 fit without rigs rarely costs more than 50 million isk at Empire prices. Never flown a Recon or a HAC then?
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:55:00 - [8] Originally by: Dubious Drewski Originally by: MotherMoon 3 tech 1 rifters can kill a 200 mil set up rifter. This is a very important point - one that needs repeating. What exactly needs to be repeated here. And if it's 3 200 mill rifters against 3 T1 rifters? The problem is that at later stages there are too many billionaires that they already dictate the standard. Many of what is standard now was considered to be for elite and very rich some time ago.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:56:00 - [9] If you cant play because you cant afford the expensive stuff, then you EPIC FAIL at Eve. You CAN play, effectively, on the cheap. Those that say otherwise are NOT playing Eve, They are playing "look at the uber modules I can brag about". But at least they drop nice loot..... Play nice while you butcher each other.
Dubious Drewski	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:58:00 - [10] Ok, in case anyone missed the point, 3 T1 rifters can be bought and fitted for less than 25 mill, but they can take out a ship that is worth much more than their combined worth. In other words: Gistii gear might be worth billions, but friends are much more valuable.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:59:00 - [11] Edited by: MotherMoon on 26/12/2007 09:00:03 Originally by: Estephania Originally by: Dubious Drewski Originally by: MotherMoon 3 tech 1 rifters can kill a 200 mil set up rifter. This is a very important point - one that needs repeating. What exactly needs to be repeated here. And if it's 3 200 mill rifters against 3 T1 rifters? The problem is that at later stages there are too many billionaires that they already dictate the standard. Many of what is standard now was considered to be for elite and very rich some time ago. get 6 tech 1 rifters. oh and then why is goonswarm winning? and I thought you were looking for some help with PvP? now your talking like you've been here for years. good jorb pointing out that your a veteran alt. I am a full time PvPer, I have 22 mil sp and I can take out a 200 mil rifter with a 1 mil rifter in my sleep. Official fanboy of jenny< pink supporter! looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2007.12.26 09:02:00 - [12] Originally by: MotherMoon then why is goonswarm winning? and I thought you were looking for some help with PvP? now your talking like you've been here for years. good jorb pointing out that your a veteran alt. I am a full time PvPer, I have 22 mil sp and I can take out a 200 mil rifter with a 1 mil rifter in my sleep. I never tried to conceal the fact that I'm a veteran alt. Goonswarm are winning because they are blobbing. Goonswarm are not poor too btw, and many of their allies are in top PvP alliances. I'm just saying that 0.0 PvP today is very much an ISK game. When I undock in gang and look around me, I think "wtf I'm doing here with my crap?".
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.12.26 09:05:00 - [13] Edited by: MotherMoon on 26/12/2007 09:05:03 Op.... In eve... when your in a fleet... your 5 billion set up battleship will last 2 seconds under the fire of 400 ships. Official fanboy of jenny< pink supporter! looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.12.26 09:06:00 - [14] Originally by: Estephania Originally by: MotherMoon then why is goonswarm winning? and I thought you were looking for some help with PvP? now your talking like you've been here for years. good jorb pointing out that your a veteran alt. I am a full time PvPer, I have 22 mil sp and I can take out a 200 mil rifter with a 1 mil rifter in my sleep. I never tried to conceal the fact that I'm a veteran alt. Goonswarm are winning because they are blobbing. Goonswarm are not poor too btw, and many of their allies are in top PvP alliances. I'm just saying that 0.0 PvP today is very much an ISK game. When I undock in gang and look around me, I think "wtf I'm doing here with my crap?". your there to fulfill your role like everyone else, and if your ally is taken out you are to fill his shoes untill your called primary and also die, now get back in line solder and don't speak until spoken to. Official fanboy of jenny< pink supporter! looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi
Lexi Belle	Posted - 2007.12.26 09:08:00 - [15] Originally by: Dubious Drewski In other words: Gistii gear might be worth billions, but friends are much more valuable. I do believe this is one of the finer quotes I've heard in eve. You, good sir, win.
Delichon Caldari The First Foundation Stella Polar	Posted - 2007.12.26 09:16:00 - [16] Originally by: Dubious Drewski In other words: Gistii gear might be worth billions, but friends are much more valuable. Yes, blobs solve probs. Why haven't ANYONE thought of this before, I wonder? ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. Next time they are going to nerf you directly. Eve Forums.
Wild Rho Amarr GoonFleet	Posted - 2007.12.26 09:22:00 - [17] I've managed to pvp for the last 4 years or so without investing billions of isk into my ships. Until recently I've never had more than a hundred mil in my wallet. At the end of the day if you insist of fighting solo you are going to have to learn to live with more restrictions the fact you'll never be as effective as people who fly in groups. Your failure to support yourself isk wise in your current style of play is your fault, not a fault with the game so you can either see it as a challenge to overcome or chose to do something else because whining about it on the forums isn't going to get you any sympathy.
Dubious Drewski	Posted - 2007.12.26 09:29:00 - [18] Originally by: Delichon Originally by: Dubious Drewski In other words: Gistii gear might be worth billions, but friends are much more valuable. Yes, blobs solve probs. Why haven't ANYONE thought of this before, I wonder? Hey, all I'm saying is that numbers help you win. Whether it's fun or "good for Eve" is an entirely different argument. Lexi Belle: Thanks
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2007.12.26 09:35:00 - [19] Originally by: Wild Rho I've managed to pvp for the last 4 years or so without investing billions of isk into my ships. Until recently I've never had more than a hundred mil in my wallet. At the end of the day if you insist of fighting solo you are going to have to learn to live with more restrictions the fact you'll never be as effective as people who fly in groups. Your failure to support yourself isk wise in your current style of play is your fault, not a fault with the game so you can either see it as a challenge to overcome or chose to do something else because whining about it on the forums isn't going to get you any sympathy. So, I fail because I don't have an array of HACs and Recons, waiting in my hangar, can't afford to play with Command Ships all the time and don't have my own small capital fleet or may be a research POS? Or may be I don't have enough ISK to afford to build an outpost totally out of my wallet, like some of ppl I know do? I have nothing against those guys and many of them are my friends, I just don't see any chance of me being on par with them. Unfortunately it means I fight in ships much worse than they are using.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.26 09:35:00 - [20] Originally by: Sergeant Spot If you cant play because you cant afford the expensive stuff, then you EPIC FAIL at Eve. You CAN play, effectively, on the cheap. Those that say otherwise are NOT playing Eve, They are playing "look at the uber modules I can brag about". But at least they drop nice loot..... QFT
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.12.26 09:38:00 - [21] Edited by: cal nereus on 26/12/2007 09:38:34 There's a reason why large blobs of cheap ships are repeatedly defeating small gangs of expensive ships these days. Many people actually think that isn't fair, quite the opposite of what is said in the op. In the end, someone is going to complain. Personally, I'm doing just fine in my tech-1 ships and fleet-standard fits. Edit: But, I would like to mention that I am aiming to upgrade to the t2 stuff and eventually the even-more-expensive stuff. But until then... I'm honestly still doing just fine. --- Join BH-DL Skills
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.12.26 09:38:00 - [22] you know in an rts, which eve is, every unit has it's use. do you stop using marines just because you have better stuff? Official fanboy of jenny< pink supporter! looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi
Arekhon Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.12.26 09:40:00 - [23] Edited by: Arekhon on 26/12/2007 09:41:13 Originally by: Dubious Drewski Originally by: Delichon Originally by: Dubious Drewski In other words: Gistii gear might be worth billions, but friends are much more valuable. Yes, blobs solve probs. Why haven't ANYONE thought of this before, I wonder? Hey, all I'm saying is that numbers help you win. Whether it's fun or "good for Eve" is an entirely different argument. Lexi Belle: Thanks hasn't > haven't Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap [BEES]
Arekhon Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.12.26 09:42:00 - [24] Originally by: MotherMoon you know in an rts, which eve is, every unit has it's use. do you stop using marines just because you have better stuff? marines > better stuff and numbers semper fi Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap [BEES]
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.26 09:46:00 - [25] Originally by: Estephania So, I fail because I don't have an array of HACs and Recons, waiting in my hangar, No, you fail because you think you need billions worth of ships and modules to play Eve effectively. For both the current alliance I'm in right now and the one I was in before it, the Rifter (and I guarantee you we're talking mainly tech 1 fitted Rifters or with a few cheap tech 2 modules on them) is one of the most commonly used ships on their killlboard. (You also fail for not being able to make billions even though you seem to want to. Because, to be honest it's pretty darn easy if you care to do it. But that's another issue.)
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.12.26 10:02:00 - [26] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 26/12/2007 10:05:12 You can roam around and pirate in a T1 frigate without problems. Yes, you won't have a 50:1 K/D ratio, but you'll have a good ISK gained / ISK lost ratio. I have no problems flying cheap and killing things with it. Edit: what will 3 200M rifters do vs 3 (say, 1.5M) Rifters? Lose two and come out worse. Losing one is guaranteed. Rifters!
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2007.12.26 10:02:00 - [27] Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Estephania So, I fail because I don't have an array of HACs and Recons, waiting in my hangar, No, you fail because you think you need billions worth of ships and modules to play Eve effectively. For both the current alliance I'm in right now and the one I was in before it, the Rifter (and I guarantee you we're talking mainly tech 1 fitted Rifters or with a few cheap tech 2 modules on them) is one of the most commonly used ships on their killlboard. (You also fail for not being able to make billions even though you seem to want to. Because, to be honest it's pretty darn easy if you care to do it. But that's another issue.) It's pretty easy if you have several alts who make you ISK, or sell GTCs. Doing it with only one character, you also try to PvP with is everything but easy.
DJ P	Posted - 2007.12.26 10:02:00 - [28] I'm playing since 2004 and never had above few hundred millions. I never waste my money to shiny ships when I pvp. Get a Rifter or an Wolf (still cheap), equip it and here you go. Or if you can spend 30-40m fit a cheap Drake, Prophecy or Maller (t1 cruiser). Here you go. In roaming gangs they shine. You don't need Capitals, Battleships or Command vessels. Also who's kb you saw and they have shiny ships? BOB's? They own 2/3 of the T2 bpos either way.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.26 10:09:00 - [29] Originally by: Estephania Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Estephania So, I fail because I don't have an array of HACs and Recons, waiting in my hangar, No, you fail because you think you need billions worth of ships and modules to play Eve effectively. For both the current alliance I'm in right now and the one I was in before it, the Rifter (and I guarantee you we're talking mainly tech 1 fitted Rifters or with a few cheap tech 2 modules on them) is one of the most commonly used ships on their killlboard. (You also fail for not being able to make billions even though you seem to want to. Because, to be honest it's pretty darn easy if you care to do it. But that's another issue.) It's pretty easy if you have several alts who make you ISK, or sell GTCs. Doing it with only one character, you also try to PvP with is everything but easy. No need for GTCs. One, mildly skilled, industrial alt makes things a little more convenient as far as time management goes so you don't have to run your one character in and out of empire space all the time (assuming you fight in 0.0), but it's not a requirement.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.12.26 10:11:00 - [30] Originally by: Estephania It's pretty easy if you have several alts who make you ISK, or sell GTCs. Doing it with only one character, you also try to PvP with is everything but easy. That is only if you suck. Rifters!

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