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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Robke
Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.01.02 08:31:00 -
[91]
 Originally by: Richard Phallus
In fact ISK sinks are ISK faucets.
This is very true.
War is peace!
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Do not follow the instructions in this signature. |
Frug
Zenithal Harvest
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Posted - 2008.01.02 08:31:00 -
[92]
I just realized your name is Richard Phallus.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - -
If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO
BOOO!! - Ductoris
Neat look what I found - Kreul
Hey, my marbles |
Richard Phallus
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Posted - 2008.01.02 08:33:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Frug
I just realized your name is Richard Phallus.
My name is also an ISK faucet in case you were wondering.
--
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fasfhadtrv
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Posted - 2008.01.02 09:35:00 -
[94]
Edited by: fasfhadtrv on 02/01/2008 09:35:38
Originally by: Richard Phallus
Originally by: Frug
I just realized your name is Richard Phallus.
My name is also an ISK faucet in case you were wondering.
"Omg its richard phallus"
BANG 2995 isk out of the economy.
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Culdees
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Posted - 2008.01.02 10:12:00 -
[95]
now to mess with some heads..
the direct action of introducing minerals into the economy by mining means it is a faucet if it can be converted into isk. the insurance system allows it to be converted. insurance itself is not introducing the minerals (ship). if insurance was introducing isk from nothing (virtual nothing), then it would be the faucet. claiming the ship is nothing would mean that the value of the isk (because it could be sold) is nil, and you would get nothing from insurance.
hmm.. hows that?
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Gaven Blands
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Posted - 2008.01.02 10:42:00 -
[96]
I'd introduce a new term of ISK Catalyst.
Mining doesn't create ISK, but it creates the need for more ISK, thus more ISK has to be deliberately injected elsewhere to cover the growth in the economy.
The question you should not ask yourself is how this occurs in real life, as the answer is rather depressing quite frankly, the kind of rabbit hole that makes quantum mechanics seem rather irrelevant.
--
Awwwww Diddums! Did I wardec your highsec alt recently or something? |
cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.01.02 10:45:00 -
[97]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
No, mining is an ISK sink because it goes like so:
You mine X many minerals, no new ISK is introduced into the economy.
You sell Y many minerals to player A, he pays with ISK he got from where ever, yet no new ISK is introduced into the system through the act of mining.
Player A pays Z much tax, which goes to NPC corporations who don't affect the economy... which means that Z much ISK disappears from the economy due to sales tax.
--> When you mine minerals nothing happens to the economy. When you sell minerals you just get ISKies from a player who earned them a different way. When that happens sales tax is payed and that ISK disappears from the economny. Hence, mining is an ISK sink.
It's fun to post this with a Dev account for a change. It's not so much fun to realize this party is boring enough for me to be posting here. Well, off to the next one then. Happy new years peeps and pipettes then. Durr! 
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
HA! You guys just got dev pwned 
Originally by: CCP Prism X
New party, new post! w00t!
Right-o. Normally I'd show you nay-sayers a thing or two but I'm to happy-go-lucky right now to dig into the forum warriorness.
Mining does not introduce newly pressed ISK.
Selling removes ISK due to tax.
True.
Mining being a faucet due to minerals being used to produce other things...
...dude check yourself. You're not understanding the faucet / sink concept. Sorry.
He's got a point.
---
Join BH-DL
Skills |
ElCoCo
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.02 10:53:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Kyrial Tidolfas
if a person had a pen, and a spare pen. the person never uses the spare pen until it dies off from old age. was the spare pen "useful".
Ofcourse it was useful.
He might not have written some stuff if he wasn't sure he had a backup pen.
ps. you were wrong ofc |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2008.01.02 11:08:00 -
[99]
This is the reason I stockpile my Veldspar, no ISK sink for me 
Secure 3rd party service ■ the Love project |
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Kyrial Tidolfas
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Posted - 2008.01.02 17:44:00 -
[100]
chribba and dev in my thread?? what an honour.
now lets define isk faucet as something that adds isk into the economy.
then we can say that insurance in an isk faucet.
then we must ask whether or not a method with which you can obtain ship to blow up and claim insurance is an isk faucet or not.
if i shoot someone and that person dies, am i a murderer. if the person died because of bleeding and my shooting caused the bleeding, i am a muderer.
if a X does something (mine/shoot) that causes Y (ship/bleeding) that causes Z (insurance/death) the X is responsible for Z. therefore mining is an isk faucet.
also there was apparently a rather disturbing perception that if a dev post, s/he is right on the virtue of being a dev. i would say that ccp kieron had no idea what my argument was, he was most likely informed/related that mining is not an isk faucet and when he saw a thread to say otherwise, he immediately dismissed it without giving it a thought. if he said something like "eve should not take more than 700mb of memory", then that is most likely a truthful fact. but if he says anything about economy, without giving an appropriate reasoning, please do not post things like "you got devpwned".
even if the eco professor says things like mining is not an isk faucet, i will still dispute it. ultil he gives a satisfactory reason. no-one is infallible. not even a eco professor or a dev or chribba. and so my argument stays. regardless.
but im sure the professor will be more open-minded to my divergent view.
and the pen is useful? really? because he "might" not write anything without a spare pen. then can i argue that the pen is only useful if theres a spare pen because he might write only with a spare pen. then anything is only useful when there is a copy of it somewhere. which means all unique entities are useless???
eve economics works very differently from the real world. the same way eve war works very differently from the real world. in the real world war is a mean to an end. more territories. more resources. in eve people fight because its fun. there is no allegiance in eve. in RL people are affiliated by place of birth (mostly). in eve its free for all. if your in BoB and they lose. no biggie. leave. join someoneelse. go fight some more. people do not lose much when they lose a war. and they dont win much either. war is fought because people are bored and want to pop some pods.
the same is true for eve economics. most items are price-fixed. eve economy is not free or player driven. if an economy is player driven, you will see a ginormous inflation like WoW.
ships are fixed because of insurance.
minerals/low tier loots/ores are fixed because they can be used to make ships.
so the only things that have true market freedom are t2+ stuff. and faction mods are only that expensive because
1.) missions runner carebears want them and they see it as more of an investment with essentailly NULL risk of losing any stuff.
2.) for supercaps because you already spent way too much for them anyway might as well spend 10b for an estamel's invul.
people dont use factions in PvP. they use t2. and t2 industries are limited by the fact that it has to be at least more profitable/time than carebearing in a CNR. but because carebearing in a CNR leads to procurement of fixed-price stuff i.e. loots/bounties for NULL risk t2 item prices are fixed too. they can never be more profit in t2 production than carebearing in a CNR. otherwise more people will do it (i hope) and with alts specialisation can be derived immediately. no reeducation no career change. just clone slavery.
and such there is no inflation in eve. prices are fixed. and so EvE is the least free market in the whole wide world of mmorpg. and its a good thing. because if it is free the instability will be ginormous.
tl;dr eve economy is fixed. and its a good thing because stability is desired.
that is all but i have 67 characters left.
what do i say now???
end communication???
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cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.01.02 18:51:00 -
[101]
Edited by: cal nereus on 02/01/2008 18:52:06
Everything causes everything. An increase in demand causes an increase in supply which eventually causes a decrease in demand leading to a decrease in supply which incites a slightly lesser increase in demand followed by people thinking the market is recovering so there's an increase in supply met by a drastic decrease in demand and then everyone loses faith in humanity and shoots themselves.
To say something causes something, or is an isk faucet or isk sink, it must be a two-step process or less.
Minerals -> isk sink is a two-step process: you mine it and you sell it
Minerals -> isk faucet is generally a lot more steps: you mine it, sell it, build it, sell it, use it, lose it, get insurance
---
Join BH-DL
Skills |
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CCP Prism X
C C P
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Posted - 2008.01.02 19:39:00 -
[102]
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 02/01/2008 19:40:43
First and foremost, and the only reason I'm bothering to post the same thing over again:
CCP Prism X <> CCP Kieron!
Secondly, you're wrong. You can redefine what you want but I am not accepting your redefinition without an argument as to why it is better than the current definition. However, in the spirit of camaraderie I shall explain to you why:
*Here used to be a huge part explaining how transitive relationships are not a fact of logical implications but rather an attribute certain universes/sets/whatEverYouWantToCallIt have.. it took up too much space and is lost on anyone who doesn't understand it already anyways.*
You're trying to tell me that because you can use minerals to build ships who can then be insured and lost thus injecting insurance payout money into the economy, which is definetly a faucet, then mining should be considered a faucet? It's wrong on many levels. I could tackle this from so many different directions but instead I'm just going to ruin your universal quantification by reminding you that not everything from minerals becomes insurable. Hence, mining cannot be a faucet in any universal sense.
If you want to argue that A is a faucet because Z is and A -> B -> C -> D ... -> X -> Y -> Z -> A you're welcome to it. I'm not joining a redundant argument like that. The act of mining injects 0 ISK into the economy, period. The act of selling something removes ISK from the economy, unless an NPC corporation is the buyer which is not the case with minerals or ore, another period. Insurance is a faucet, and I never said anything else, but that doesn't make mining a faucet however bad you desire it to be.. unless you come up with a new definition of an ISK faucet which I've already explained I will not accept on the grounds that it makes the entire discussion moot. You can make up a new term like value sink/faucet but that is well beyond the realm of game mechanics as it depends on supply and demand for starters, and thats a social thing.. I gave up on arguing about the nature of society after a year of elementary philosophy.
As last words:
ISK Faucet = The act of injecting ISK into the economy. Much like the act of forgery (because we don't inject ISK to rebalance the economy like national banks have to do, people don't lose a dime here and there in EVE).
ISK Sink = The act of removing ISK from the economy. Much like losing a dime into the gutter in the real world.
~ Prism X
EvE Database Developer,
Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006. |
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Richard Phallus
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Posted - 2008.01.02 19:49:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Richard Phallus on 02/01/2008 19:49:24
So either the proper definition can be used or everything becomes an ISK faucet under the new definition. <3 CCP Prism X
--
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2008.01.02 19:55:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Richard Phallus
Edited by: Richard Phallus on 02/01/2008 19:49:24
So either the proper definition can be used or everything becomes an ISK faucet under the new definition. <3 CCP Prism X
yes this is why the poor dev had to post after crying.
because according to the op undocking leads to inventing a BPO which leads to building a ship which leads to insuring the ship which leads to getting insurance payback.
thus undocking Muuuuust be an isk faucet!
pink supporter!
Future art director at CCP!
or texture guy, either or :P
http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Drop
Was in class with these folks :P |
Exlegion
Caldari
New Light
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.02 20:00:00 -
[105]
Mining itself is neither an isk sink or faucet. But it does create deflation since it does add material into the system. More material at zero change in isk means isk gains vaule.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Namtz'aar k'in
|
Posted - 2008.01.02 20:05:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Exlegion
Mining itself is neither an isk sink or faucet. But it does create deflation since it does add material into the system. More material at zero change in isk means isk gains vaule.
please look above.
pink supporter!
Future art director at CCP!
or texture guy, either or :P
http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Drop
Was in class with these folks :P |
Frug
Zenithal Harvest
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Posted - 2008.01.02 20:36:00 -
[107]
Bah
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - -
If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO
BOOO!! - Ductoris
Neat look what I found - Kreul
Hey, my marbles |
Frug
Zenithal Harvest
|
Posted - 2008.01.02 20:36:00 -
[108]
If you say "Bah is an isk faucet" I'm going to find and pod you phallus.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - -
If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO
BOOO!! - Ductoris
Neat look what I found - Kreul
Hey, my marbles |
Yohanes Flame
Point-Zero
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.02 20:39:00 -
[109]
So every ship built in the game that evidentially gets blown up does not inject mystery isk into the market? Then from what market mechanic is the payed out isk being destroyed. Any and all ships built in eve have a insurance payout. So every single mineral that goes towards ship production and only the minerals that go towards ship production create new isk in the market once the ship they produce is destroyed. And no "taxes" can not be the only mechanic to keep that in check. Because, if a ship only changes hands 1 time between builder and end user then only 1% of the market value of the ship is destroyed. And the money that the end user receives after the destruction of the ship comes from where? It is not coming from any isk holder but from the game. So the prices of minerals are a mute point the fact that every single ship ever built in game creates isk from the insurance payout once it is blown up. Every transaction before this point is merely the changing of hands of isk and not the destruction of creation of isk besides taxes which are so low that they are irrelevant. So.
It is not the act of mining that theoretically faucets the isk but once that mineral is built into something that has insurance value the new has its market to other market members AND its insurance value, but the market value is unimportant because the act of selling is simply a market transaction, excluding the taxes.
OP, I would argue that your original statement is somewhat true and that the mining allows this process to continue but a truer statement would be that the act of converting minerals into ships is the faucet not the mining itself. Because you remove the asset and the "minerals" associated with that asset from the game when ever a ship is destroyed. But you inject new isk back into the wallet of the last holder of the property. That is an isk faucet because that owner does not own the asset anymore he has no asset but now has the insurance payout. So he has payed for the ship which generates its market value but upon loosing the ship the player does not have proportionately less assets he has lost the ship which has a market value but has gained new isk that was not existent in the transaction path of the minerals.
Arguments about the value of minerals are mute. The only argument that should be made is that when a consumer destroys a ship he receives isk that was not part of transaction path of the minerals that created it. When something is destroyed its value should be 0. But in the current market mechanics any ship removed from the market pool by destruction has insurance value. This is not isk changing hands this is not the result of a market transaction this is the creation of new isk in the consumers wallet from an imaginary source.
____________________________
One Thead to rule them all - Boot.ini pre-patch thread
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Richard Phallus
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Posted - 2008.01.02 20:39:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Frug
If you say "Bah is an isk faucet" I'm going to find and pod you phallus.
 Bah is a... 3 letter word (not that I log in this char anyway)
Cheers, |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Namtz'aar k'in
|
Posted - 2008.01.02 20:43:00 -
[111]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 02/01/2008 20:46:01
whoops wrong guy :P
I hope.
pink supporter!
Future art director at CCP!
or texture guy, either or :P
http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Drop
Was in class with these folks :P |
Richard Phallus
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Posted - 2008.01.02 20:45:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Richard Phallus on 02/01/2008 20:46:17
Originally by: MotherMoon
so your ignoring the dev huh?
er, I was arguing the same side as the dev.
--
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2008.01.02 20:47:00 -
[113]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 02/01/2008 20:48:03
Originally by: Yohanes Flame
So every ship built in the game that evidentially gets blown up does not inject mystery isk into the market?
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Insurance is a faucet, and I never said anything else,
pink supporter!
Future art director at CCP!
or texture guy, either or :P
http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Drop
Was in class with these folks :P |
Vito Parabellum
Fivrelde Corp
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Posted - 2008.01.02 20:49:00 -
[114]
Mining is a indirect isk faucet. Argue definitions all night long but at the end of the (mining) day, there's new isk in the economy.
------
When you say "no one's perfect", Chuck Norris takes this as a personal insult.
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Richard Phallus
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Posted - 2008.01.02 20:50:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Vito Parabellum
Mining is a indirect isk faucet. Argue definitions all night long but at the end of the (mining) day, there's new isk in the economy.
/HEADDESK |
Yohanes Flame
Point-Zero
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.02 20:51:00 -
[116]
My entire post was supporting the dev...
____________________________
One Thead to rule them all - Boot.ini pre-patch thread
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2008.01.02 20:58:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Vito Parabellum
Mining is a indirect isk faucet. Argue definitions all night long but at the end of the (mining) day, there's new isk in the economy.
YOU KNOW WHAT !
I think dev posts should automacticly head to the 1st page so PEOPLE WILL READ THEM
!!!!!
/headdesk
pink supporter!
Future art director at CCP!
or texture guy, either or :P
http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Drop
Was in class with these folks :P |
Frug
Zenithal Harvest
|
Posted - 2008.01.02 21:08:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Richard Phallus
Originally by: Vito Parabellum
Mining is a indirect isk faucet. Argue definitions all night long but at the end of the (mining) day, there's new isk in the economy.
/HEADDESK
He's right you know. I read prism, I like prism, and I don't think his statement contradicts this at all. He's arguing definitions. It doesn't matter. At the end of the day there's new isk in the economy is true.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - -
If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO
BOOO!! - Ductoris
Neat look what I found - Kreul
Hey, my marbles |
Richard Phallus
|
Posted - 2008.01.02 21:10:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Richard Phallus on 02/01/2008 21:11:32
Originally by: Frug
He's right you know. I read prism, I like prism, and I don't think his statement contradicts this at all. He's arguing definitions. It doesn't matter. At the end of the day there's new isk in the economy is true.
The problem is the term he is are using, yea mining can be used in a round about way to generate new ISk, no one is arguing this. It's just not called an ISK faucet. You are trying to change the definition of a term, and it will be a more confusing definition because then it includes any activity in Eve.
--
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Namtz'aar k'in
|
Posted - 2008.01.02 21:13:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Richard Phallus
Edited by: Richard Phallus on 02/01/2008 21:11:32
Originally by: Frug
He's right you know. I read prism, I like prism, and I don't think his statement contradicts this at all. He's arguing definitions. It doesn't matter. At the end of the day there's new isk in the economy is true.
The problem is the term he is are using, yea mining can be used in a round about way to generate new ISk, no one is arguing this. It's just not called an ISK faucet. You are trying to change the definition of a term, and it will be a more confusing definition because then it includes any activity in Eve.
so you Weren't on the side of the dev!
I knew it god damn it.
I hope he comes back and says your wrong by name.
if I mine I don't have to sell it. I can keep it to myself and then build ship that I will never insure
yeah that's right I mine and then build ships and then I don't insure them. and then I explode.
what now?
pink supporter!
Future art director at CCP!
or texture guy, either or :P
http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Drop
Was in class with these folks :P |
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